- 1 week ago
Today on Power House, Zeb sits down with Rachel Clark, Executive Director of the Broker Action Coalition (BAC), a grassroots advocacy network that's been advocating for the mortgage industry since 2022. Rachel is also a co-owner of Firehouse Mortgage, a Houston-based brokerage that specializes in serving first-responders, veterans, and minority homebuyers.
Rachel breaks down how the BAC took on abusive trigger lead practices, their work that led to the Home Buyers Privacy Protection Act, explaining how they turned a complex legislative process into wins that brokers could understand.
They also talk about what goes into sustaining grassroots movements, why showing up matters more than most small business owners realize and what's next on BAC's radar.
Here’s what you’ll learn:
How the BAC transformed from a small advocacy group to a legislative force in just three years
Why trigger leads were poisoning broker-client relationships and how the industry fought back
The coalition strategy that brought together brokers, bankers, and consumer advocates
How to sustain momentum in grassroots movements when progress feels slow
Why bipartisan messaging around data privacy made all the difference
What policy battles are coming next for the mortgage industry
Practical steps for small business owners who want to make their voices heard
Related to this episode:
The Broker Action Coalition
https://brokeractioncoalition.com/
Rachel Clark | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-clark-bac
FireHouse Mortgage
https://www.firehousemortgage.net/
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Rachel breaks down how the BAC took on abusive trigger lead practices, their work that led to the Home Buyers Privacy Protection Act, explaining how they turned a complex legislative process into wins that brokers could understand.
They also talk about what goes into sustaining grassroots movements, why showing up matters more than most small business owners realize and what's next on BAC's radar.
Here’s what you’ll learn:
How the BAC transformed from a small advocacy group to a legislative force in just three years
Why trigger leads were poisoning broker-client relationships and how the industry fought back
The coalition strategy that brought together brokers, bankers, and consumer advocates
How to sustain momentum in grassroots movements when progress feels slow
Why bipartisan messaging around data privacy made all the difference
What policy battles are coming next for the mortgage industry
Practical steps for small business owners who want to make their voices heard
Related to this episode:
The Broker Action Coalition
https://brokeractioncoalition.com/
Rachel Clark | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-clark-bac
FireHouse Mortgage
https://www.firehousemortgage.net/
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:00I'm Zeb Lowe here at the George Bush Library in Dallas, Texas, and today I'm speaking with Rachel Clark from the Broker Action Coalition.
00:15Rachel, thank you for joining me.
00:16All right, so to start, can you introduce yourself to the audience?
00:19My name is Rachel Clark. I'm the Executive Director of the Broker Action Coalition that leads advocacy efforts for the broker world.
00:26Okay, and we're calling it Back, right? Back or The Back?
00:29The Back is kind of what we reference it, and so makes it easier than trying to say the Broker Action Coalition every time.
00:36Yeah, I was practicing some of my questions, and it was a bit of a mouthful.
00:39Okay, so can you tell, I got a couple of questions all in a row that you can hopefully unpack at once.
00:44One, what is the Back, how is it formed, and how long has it been around?
00:49So the Back is like the grassroots advocacy network for mortgage brokers and the wholesale industry in general, right?
00:57We're not just representing brokers. We're trying to kind of make the wholesale industry thrive.
01:02So that's what it is. It was formed in 2022, so it's only three years old.
01:08We're kind of new to the advocacy world, obviously, but it was formed because obviously there was a need for it.
01:16Brokers needed a voice. Brokers needed a seat at the table. Brokers needed this representation across legislative, regulatory, and industry issues
01:25to make sure the needs and wants of the broker channel were being heard.
01:30How did you get there?
01:31How did I get to this spot today?
01:33Well, I started a few years ago. They started with a state captain program that was part of Back as well, and I had been sitting around kind of going,
01:45okay, as a broker, I owned a mortgage brokerage with my husband. I was like, I want to get involved. I want to help. Where do I fit in?
01:54You always want to spend your energy and time on something that you're passionate about.
01:58So when they started a state captain program, I was like, that's it. I love Texas. I've grown up in Texas, and as many Texans know, Texans love Texas.
02:07So I was like, I'm going to be a state captain for Texas, was selected as one of the original five state captains.
02:15And then at that point, it kind of like, I just grew up the ladder, I guess.
02:21Went from state captain of Texas to a co-chair of the whole state captain program.
02:26And then from there, went to a part-time role with the back, doing some back-end stuff.
02:32And then in January of this year, was promoted to executive director of the whole organization.
02:38Congratulations.
02:39Yeah. Okay. So the back had a hand in ending or in pushing of the Homebuyers Privacy Protection Act.
02:47And this is tied to ending abusive trigger lead practices.
02:52Yes.
02:52Right? Okay.
02:53So for the audience, can you kind of unpack how those abusive trigger lead practices, how they impact both the broker and the homebuyer?
03:03So the problem with trigger leads is there were a lot of bad actors when it came to them.
03:10And so for a broker, you work with your client day in and day out, could be for six months, you're in the community with them, and then you go to pull their credit and these calls bombard them.
03:21Well, they immediately think, why did you sell my data?
03:25So that relationship you've taken the time to build with them has now immediately been tarnished, right?
03:30Because this client doesn't see past you, the broker they're talking to, that loan officer they're working with.
03:37They don't see past that to the credit bureaus, other things that happen behind the scenes.
03:42They just look at it like, why did you sell my data?
03:45And so for small broker shops, it can be detrimental because if you're trying to fight this with every single client and explain, hey, I'm not the one that sold your data, it consumes your time.
03:58And honestly, it's an energy thing.
04:01Trying to explain to somebody day in and day out, you were not the one who sold their data can be frustrating.
04:06And for these clients, these homebuyers, you know, first-time homebuyers, English is not their first language buyers.
04:14It's confusing.
04:15Elderly, it's confusing.
04:17Why is this person calling me, telling me they're working with you when they're not?
04:21Like, why is this other person calling you?
04:24I thought I was working with Rachel.
04:26Why is Joe calling me?
04:28It just really tarnishes the whole relationship, I think, when it comes to home buying.
04:32And so that was a big thing when the brokerage, you know, when the back started, our thing said, if you're donating, we want to know what you care about.
04:41And it was overwhelming majority wanted trigger leads to stop.
04:44So that is why we put all of our time and energy into really focusing on this the first few years.
04:50And now we've accomplished our goal and moving on.
04:54Great.
04:54So how much of a hand did, which I think I know from our previous conversation, can you share with the audience, how much of a hand did back have in this act?
05:02I say we played a large part.
05:06We did work on a coalition, though, with the NBA, like the ICBA, a lot of other bankers, as well as some community advocacy organizations.
05:16So we were, I say we were the small dogs at the table, you know, obviously being new, having a smaller team and things like that.
05:24But we had a large voice because we do have a lot of brokers around the country that do support our efforts.
05:30So we were able to bring a different dynamic to the situation.
05:35Whereas, like, NBA is a great longstanding institution, but we were able to bring a consumer perspective.
05:43You know, our brokers are small business owners across the country.
05:45It's different.
05:46So that adds to the history of the NBA.
05:52Here we come in with our letter writing and just getting the word out.
05:57It really adds to the fight at that point coming together.
06:01Right.
06:02So this is, I mean, classified, I would say, as a grassroots movement, which are, to my understanding, notoriously difficult to sustain.
06:11Yes.
06:12Right.
06:12So what, you know, tactics or strategies did you use to sustain this push?
06:19What challenges did you have?
06:21You know, what did you learn from them?
06:22Can you walk us through some of that?
06:24So some of the challenges we faced is, I'll be the first to admit it, I didn't listen in history class and, like, government class in high school.
06:34And so understanding the process it takes from a bill to become a law.
06:38You know, it sounds simple, but there's a lot of steps involved in it that, unless you do it day in and day out, not everybody understands.
06:47So Trigger, the Homebuyer Privacy Protection Act, got introduced in last Congress.
06:51Well, Congress is every two years.
06:54The session ended.
06:55And so we kind of would be like, oh, yeah, the bill died.
06:58Well, and then people are like, so we can't ban Trigger leads?
07:01Well, no, it's a new session, so we have to get it reintroduced.
07:05And, like, so this challenge of getting especially brokers to understand the fight was not done, that we actually were a lot further along than it seemed when we were like, oh, we have to wait for the bill to get introduced.
07:19People were like, man, we're starting all over.
07:21Like, we've got to do this all over again and everything.
07:24And it was like, I mean, yes, technically, but since we passed the Senate unanimously the session before, we had over 100 co-sponsors total.
07:34It's like we're not starting over.
07:36People know what the bill is.
07:37People want to support it.
07:39So it was a quick process this session.
07:43And with the bill getting introduced, I think it was, like, April 10th, roughly, and then being signed into law by September, that's actually a quick process for these type of bills.
07:53And so getting our brokers and our advocates to understand that when we say, oh, the bill died, it wasn't completely dead.
08:01It wasn't completely over.
08:02And, like, we were just going to keep using that momentum to move forward.
08:08Did you find yourself having to play or fill the role, kind of, like, as a cheerleader often to keep people's either enthusiasm or just push them through to the next, you know, milestone or the next small win?
08:20Yes.
08:21There's a lot of, like, I felt like things didn't change, right?
08:26So it was like, okay, the bill got introduced.
08:29Well, that was, like, three months.
08:30Oh, the bill's introduced.
08:31We're looking for co-sponsors.
08:33And you've got to keep people excited about it because LOs want kind of instant gratification.
08:39They want to know it's, you know, hey, it's closing in 10 days.
08:43They don't understand.
08:43Bills don't do that, right?
08:45So it was like, hey, month after month, we kind of had to keep saying, like, hey, we're making good progress.
08:50We're increasing our co-sponsors.
08:53You know, these are the good things that are happening.
08:55So then once it passed the Senate unanimously again, well, that's a big win we could celebrate.
09:00And we always tried to, like, relate the process to the loan process because then people, you know, when you're talking to LOs, they understand it a little more.
09:10So it's like, okay, so we, you know, cleared underwriting now.
09:14And, like, when it was past the House, it's like, okay, now we're at the CTC point or, you know.
09:21And so trying to relate it to kind of their everyday life so that they understood what this meant, that it's like it's almost done, but it's not quite done, right?
09:31Until it gets signed by the president, really it's not done.
09:34And so you kind of have to make it exciting, which not everybody finds government exciting.
09:42And so just trying to, like, really push the positives of what was happening, even if we didn't see movement.
09:49But we were having great meetings or we were getting more co-sponsors.
09:52We really had to kind of, like, emphasize those wins on the regular basis because you don't get a lot of big wins as you go through the process.
10:01All right, so if we're doing that, if you're drawing the parallel between the origination process and then the process of passing the bill or getting it through, what would you say, if you're making that parallel, what would you say is getting underwriting conditions back?
10:15I would say that would be kind of like when it passed the Senate, passed the House, there were differences.
10:21So they had to kind of come together to figure out the differences.
10:24To me, that was kind of like conditions, like, hey, like, these are your final conditions.
10:28Like, we just got to clear these little things up and then go for CTC, right?
10:34So then they kind of came to an agreement.
10:36We're going to go with this one and send it back to the underwriter, let's say.
10:41And both chambers approved the House bill, which was a little thing I did not know, is even if the bills are identical,
10:50they have to accept either the House bill or the Senate bill because when it goes to the president, it goes as one.
10:55So you can't have House bill 1234 and Senate bill 1234 going.
11:02It has to be one or the other.
11:04So that was a little nuance I was not aware of.
11:07But it also makes sense as well because he's obviously not signing two bills.
11:10He's signing one.
11:11So, yeah, so once they passed both chambers, pushed, that's when it was like, okay, we're clear to close.
11:20And then it's like waiting on, you know, the funder to draw docs and stuff like that is waiting on the president to sign.
11:26And so it was kind of like at that point of it's passed both chambers, you know, hey, we equate it to a CTC.
11:35You're basically done.
11:36But, you know, sometimes they come back with a funding condition.
11:39Sometimes it's delayed.
11:40Sometimes there's these things.
11:41So making it make sense, you know, to loan originators that things happen and it's okay.
11:48It's not like we're, it's not like they're killing the bill.
11:53We're just waiting on the process to happen.
11:56Right.
11:56Okay, so this passed with bipartisan support, right, which is exceedingly rare in our political environment today.
12:02So did you have any, in particular, messages or messaging or strategies that you had anticipated using for this level of success?
12:13Really with the bipartisan support, it goes back to having the right message overall.
12:19You know, when we would go talk to congressional representatives and say the problem is the data is being sold without consumers' consent, it's really hard for somebody to go, yeah, but that's a good thing.
12:32Especially in today's society with the technology we have and, you know, data safety is so important, right?
12:40And so we always talk about how, yeah, our efforts are great, the grassroots is great, but when you have the right message, it just goes that much further.
12:51And so that's what we've been very cautious of looking at what we're going to fight, what we're going to support.
12:57We've got to have the right message.
12:58And with trigger leads, we always felt like the message was obviously clear.
13:05People shouldn't be able to sell somebody else's data without their consent.
13:08Now, if somebody wants to consent to their data being sold, that's on them, but, like, you weren't allowing them to give consent to have their data sold.
13:16They had to go through an opt-out process, which was clunky and didn't always work.
13:20So the message we had was obviously the right one to win over both sides of the aisle with this, and we had a lot of bipartisan support.
13:31So that's really helpful in this scenario.
13:34And this wasn't just a policy support either, right?
13:37It was kind of uniting the industry, one common cause, one voice.
13:44And so with this victory, what does that tell you about the possibility of brokers coming together and being able to shape the industry on into the future, should they choose to?
13:56I think this just goes to show that we're more powerful than we think, right?
14:02Most broker shops are smaller, I would say under 50 people, right?
14:07So most people think, well, I can't do much.
14:09I'm just a small shop.
14:10I only have five employees.
14:11Like, no one's going to listen to me.
14:13But when we come together as brokers, especially when it's an issue that aligns with the whole mortgage industry, it really does go further.
14:22And the voice of the broker does make a difference.
14:25So it's helpful when we're going forward to, like, compromise with others.
14:30Should we maybe want one way this way, but, hey, really, we need to meet in the middle because that's the best option for the industry?
14:38It really just goes to show that it can be done, that brokers can get what they want, maybe not 100% of what they want, but 75% of what they want when it comes to these issues, if they bring their voice to the table and make it hurt.
14:52So what can brokers or small business owners that want to have an impact or want to change beyond their immediate business or their local community, what could they learn from you and from back?
15:04I think the biggest thing is get involved.
15:08Get involved with your local community, whether it be your, like, city hall and your mayor, whether you go to your representative's offices, and get involved with other organizations that are looking at the mortgage industry and the issues we're facing now, looking for the future, what's coming up.
15:26If you're sitting in that room when a problem comes up, then at least you can say, hey, this is what I think.
15:32But if you're never sitting in that room, you can't really tell them what you think.
15:35And sometimes that's just the biggest thing is just showing up and getting involved.
15:39Some things can be as simple as joining a call to listen to what's going on.
15:44Some things are send a letter to your representatives.
15:48Many representatives will meet with constituents in their home offices to hear about the problems they're facing.
15:53And it could be mortgage problems, it could be business problems, or you're running into something with your tax office as a small business owner.
16:01You know, go to your representative and just talk to them about it.
16:04Not to say they're going to fix it, but at least, like, enough people saying the same things will make waves.
16:11So for anybody that's wanting to or curious about how to get involved with BAC, how would they go about doing that?
16:16I would say the first step is to visit our website, just simply brokeractioncoalition.com.
16:21And there's a whole series of how to get involved, from joining our Facebook group to writing letters, joining our monthly calls.
16:29That is a way to get involved without committing money.
16:34Now, I will say we love donations, so obviously we would love those.
16:39But it also takes people just showing up for us to make a difference.
16:43I got you.
16:44I got one more question for you.
16:46What other policy issues do you have your sights set on now or planning on tackling in the near future?
16:52So we have a bill we're really pushing for support on right now.
16:56It's called the Mortgage Insurance Freedom Act.
16:58It was introduced by Representative Meeks and Representative Sessions just about three weeks ago now.
17:03And essentially, it would make FHA loans mere conventional and that the mortgage insurance would fall off at a 78% LTV.
17:10This is something we feel is a good steward of the community to support and really pushing to help Americans in those FHA loans with maybe some low interest rates that really doesn't make sense for them to refi at this point.
17:25But they could drop that mortgage insurance and save a couple hundred bucks a month.
17:29So that's something we're pushing right now policy-wise.
17:32We are looking at, too, things with the CFPB and how is that going to affect the mortgage industry should the CFPB go away?
17:42Or if they revamp it, I guess you would say, what does that look like for mortgages going forward?
17:51And trying to decipher LOComp and how we want, given our dream, what would we do to change LOComp, right?
17:59We know we're not going to get everything, but at least we want to be prepared with what we do want should the conversation start happening.
18:05Right.
18:05Well, I wish you much success.
18:07And thank you so much for joining us.
18:08It was a pleasure.
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