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00:00Tonight, the president escalates his Greenland takeover bid, threatening new tariffs on our European allies and refusing to rule out military action.
00:10Then the White House puts two army battalions on alert for possible deployment to Minneapolis in response to the ongoing protests.
00:18Plus, we are one month past the deadline for the Epstein files.
00:21What steps Congress is actually taking to force their release as the 11th hour gets underway on this Monday night.
00:30Good evening. Once again, I am Stephanie Rule. Very grateful and pleased to be back with you tonight.
00:37And look at your calendar, baby, because we are now 287 days away from the midterms with a whole lot of news to cover.
00:44This week, the president and Speaker Mike Johnson are headed to Europe.
00:48The president is set to speak at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland on Wednesday.
00:52And tomorrow, the speaker will address British Parliament to commemorate 250 years of America's independence.
00:58Normally, this would be a very warm week of diplomacy between the United States and our closest allies in Europe.
01:05But this is not a normal administration.
01:07It is clear that Donald Trump's ambitions to somehow acquire Greenland are very serious.
01:13And those ambitions have put our relationship with Europe on thin ice.
01:16The president told NBC News that he will 100 percent follow through on his threats to impose new tariffs on goods from European countries that oppose his push for Greenland.
01:27When asked if he would use military force, his response, no comment.
01:33And it seems that this could all be connected to the president's obsession with, you guessed it, winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
01:40The president sent Norway's prime minister a message last night saying he is no longer obligated to think purely of peace because he didn't win the award.
01:50He also said the world is not secure unless the U.S. has total control of Greenland.
01:55Here at home, the immigration surge and ensuing protests are continuing in Minnesota.
02:01MSNOW has confirmed that two Army airborne battalions have been placed on alert for possible deployment there.
02:08That is, according to a defense official, that is at least 1,000 active duty soldiers from a division that specializes in cold weather conditions.
02:18And the FBI is reportedly asking agents to now travel to Minneapolis for temporary assignments.
02:23Two sources told NBC at this point it is voluntary and there is not a mass surge of FBI agents headed to the city.
02:30There remains, however, roughly 3,000 federal immigration officers in that city.
02:35I'm going to take a deep breath before we start because that's a whole lot of news, guys.
02:41Now, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel.
02:43And we surely need them tonight.
02:44MSNOW White House reporter Laura Barone-Lopez, Susan Glasser is back with us, staff writer for The New Yorker, Jillian Tett, a columnist and member of the Financial Times editorial board.
02:54She joins us live from Davos, Switzerland, where it is 5 a.m., so we are always grateful that she's here.
02:59But tonight, extraordinarily grateful, and Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia and now MS, now international affairs analyst.
03:07Jillian, because you are up so early for us, set the stage.
03:12How would you describe the relationship between the United States and Europe ahead of Trump's visit to Davos?
03:18Well, I'd say that I'm sitting in Davos, where it is indeed 5 a.m., and it's very cold outside.
03:26But by golly, does this Davos meeting feel hot?
03:29Because, unfortunately, what President Trump has said in the last three or four days has completely dominated the agenda so far.
03:37Because for the Europeans who are gathering here, they are extremely nervous.
03:42He's thrown down the gauntlet to them.
03:43You either need to capitulate over Denmark, over Greenland, or I'm going to impose tariffs.
03:50And the question right now for the Europeans is, do they actually have the courage and the strength to come together and to hit back,
03:56or are they going to try and appease him yet again?
03:59Either way, it's very clear the transatlantic relationship is, if not completely broken, then very, very badly frayed right now.
04:07Susan, you talked to Trump about his desire for Greenland years ago, back in 2021.
04:12How does his answer then fit into this moment that we're in now?
04:17Yeah, Steph, we interviewed him in November of 2021 in Mar-a-Lago doing a book on Trump's first term,
04:24because we had been surprised to hear from senior officials who served in that first term that Trump's interest in Greenland was longstanding,
04:31that it was not just the laugh line that had been treated as when it became public in the summer of 2019.
04:36When we asked Trump about it in 2021, he said, you know, it's really about maps.
04:43I love maps.
04:44He treated it like he was a real estate developer.
04:46He said, it's massive and we've got to have it.
04:49And he said further, it's just not any different than any other kind of a real estate deal.
04:55And I do think that you look at what Trump has been saying about this and forget about all the sort of ex post facto efforts of his advisers to put some kind of national security gloss on this,
05:07to give it an elaborate rationale.
05:09Donald Trump told us the rationale.
05:11He said, it's a real estate deal.
05:13I want to have it.
05:14He wants to rewrite the world map and to put his name on it.
05:19This would be the largest land acquisition, you know, since the Louisiana Purchase.
05:23It would be something that would give Trump what he wants, which is a very straightforward form of immortality.
05:30He said the New York Times just a week ago, he said, psychologically, I need to own it.
05:36And I've talked with senior European officials who believe that for that reason, it's almost impossible to negotiate with Trump here because he doesn't want anything except to own it.
05:46He just wants his name on it.
05:47Like, Susan, as you said that, I was having flashbacks of Trump's first term when you had New York City apartment buildings and the residents fighting to get Trump's name literally removed from the side of their buildings.
06:00And now here we are.
06:02Michael, at the end of last year, someone said to me, a high level source said to me, who won 2025?
06:08Trump's personal fortune and Russia.
06:10Then I saw BBC reporting that Russia is gloating over this Greenland fight.
06:16While Trump is saying that the U.S. doesn't take over Greenland, if they don't, Russia's going to.
06:22Does this make sense?
06:22This is the worst foreign policy idea in my lifetime, and I teach American foreign policy here at Stanford.
06:33I think it's the worst idea in the 250-year history of our country.
06:38So maybe Mr. Trump wants to put his name on it.
06:41That's fine.
06:42He can have his vanity projects.
06:44He just shouldn't do it as the president of the United States.
06:47We do not need to annex Greenland to protect ourselves from Russia and China.
06:53To the best of my knowledge, talking with very senior government officials from the previous administration,
06:59there is no evidence whatsoever that they have plans to annex Greenland?
07:05Are you kidding me?
07:06This is a joke.
07:07If we want to put our missiles there to defend our territory and build his dome, we can do that.
07:12We have missiles, by the way, in Poland and Romania and radars to do that.
07:18We have the Fifth Fleet in Bahrain without annexing it to provide deterrence in the Middle East.
07:23We have the Seventh Fleet in Japan to provide deterrence against China without annexing the territory.
07:29There is no strategic rationale for this.
07:33This is a vanity project for Mr. Trump, not President Trump.
07:37And all Europeans, I hope, will resist this because instead of debating Ukraine, which is a real threat that Russia is posing in Davos,
07:46they're going to all be talking about this.
07:48And I hope that will then embolden rational Republicans and Democrats in our Congress, in our society to say this is ridiculous.
07:57We're not going to let it stand.
07:59And if, God forbid, he produces this outcome, the next president of the United States, the candidates running in 2028, should pledge that they'll give it back.
08:09Because we are under no obligation just to keep it as a fait accompli.
08:14There's too much fatalism with Trump.
08:16This is a bad idea, and we all need to be resisting it.
08:20Laura, Donald Trump we've seen behave over and over in sort of that bully style.
08:25He talks a really tough game from afar, and then when he's face-to-face, he gets a lot sweeter, he gets a lot softer.
08:32He's about to deliver this message in Davos on Wednesday, surrounded by all of these world leaders.
08:38What are we expecting to hear?
08:42Well, I think that these world leaders are on edge.
08:45I mean, that's what I'm hearing from Senator Chris Coons, who is there on the ground right now, the Democratic senator from Delaware.
08:52I just spoke to him earlier today, and he said that these European leaders, the Nordic country leaders, are dumbfounded, they are alarmed, there's widespread apprehension.
09:06And so they're really eager to talk to the president.
09:10They're eager to see if there is any pathway forward to walk him away and have him walk back all of these aggressive threats.
09:19But the issue is that he keeps escalating them.
09:22He's escalated them over the weekend.
09:23He escalated them today.
09:25And those around him, including his top advisors like Stephen Miller, seem to be pushing this as well, right?
09:33This idea that the U.S. has some kind of right to expand its territory, to expand its land, and demand that they need Greenland.
09:41But again, to Ambassador McFaul's point, Chris Coons was saying, the senator was saying just to me earlier today that the Danes are really flummoxed.
09:52They don't understand because for a year now they have been telling the U.S., they've been telling the president that if you want to put more military assets on the ground in Greenland,
10:01or if you want some access to critical minerals, the U.S. can have all of that.
10:05That can be done.
10:07And despite the fact, the president and his team continue to say that that's not good enough, that they want Greenland itself.
10:14And so I think it really remains to be safe.
10:18He's getting the milk for free.
10:19Well, he wants the cow stuff.
10:20But he wants it all, and there's no sign that he's going to back off of this.
10:26I know that, as you said, to your point, he does act differently when he's in the presence of other European leaders.
10:32But I don't know that that's going to necessarily change anything here, given the direction that the White House is heading in.
10:38And that even when they were asked today, we press them asking repeatedly about this text that the president sent to the Norwegian prime minister,
10:47saying that he deserved Greenland and that this was also he was upset about not being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
10:54And that was part of the reason that he wanted to go after Greenland.
10:58The White House, again, didn't back down, instead saying that they that the president is going to one way or another acquire Greenland.
11:06Well, he's justifying these new tariffs that are related to Greenland, saying he has to do it because it's a national emergency.
11:14And Treasury Secretary Scott Besson was asked about it on Meet the Press, and I must share his response.
11:21What is the national emergency that justifies these new slate of tariffs?
11:26The national emergency is avoiding a national emergency.
11:30It is a strategic decision by the president.
11:34This is a geopolitical decision, and he is able to use the economic might of the U.S. to avoid a hot war.
11:46OK, so declaring a national emergency to prevent a national emergency, is that the logic, Ambassador?
11:54It's completely illogical.
11:57And just because you call it strategic and geopolitical, it makes no sense.
12:01And I'm sure the secretary knows it makes no sense.
12:04What this will result in is tension, if not the end of NATO.
12:09What this will result in is no country wanting to ever work with us in the long term again.
12:14It's not in America's national security interests.
12:18Now, Trump may want to make Greenland Trump plan, but he's the president of the United States right now.
12:25He is not doing real estate deals.
12:27And I really hope that when he gets to Davos, our European allies will push back on him, because it's very clear, the pattern.
12:36If you try to capitulate, appease Trump, he just keeps taking.
12:40The Chinese, Xi Jinping, had a different strategy.
12:43He played the game of chicken with Trump, and he backed down.
12:45That is what we need from our European allies.
12:48And when I say we, I mean the vast majority of Americans.
12:52By 80 percent to 20 percent, Americans don't like this idea.
12:57And therefore, that, I think, gives leverage if we stand against this idiotic idea, which is just a vanity project, just like the ballroom, has nothing to do with American national security.
13:09But moving forward with it will do real damage to our long-term national security in Europe and, I think, all around the world.
13:17One of the issues, Michael, is foreign policy is just not something people are focused on in their day-to-day lives.
13:24I do want to change topics and talk Minnesota.
13:27These troops are on standby, and the FBI is looking for agents to volunteer to go there and help.
13:33But just a couple days ago, it sounded like the president was backing off his sort of Insurrection Act threat.
13:39And polls are showing that Americans, to Michael's point, Americans do not like what they are seeing in Minneapolis.
13:45So where does the White House stand right now with all of this, Susan?
13:49Well, you know, Steph, I mean, talk about another situation where Donald Trump's social media stream has now become conflict made real.
14:00I think in both the case of Greenland and Minneapolis, what you're seeing is, you know,
14:06the costs and the consequences of Donald Trump's sort of, you know,
14:11brain eruptions becoming actual policy of an administration where there's no one to constrain him or to curb him.
14:19You have a situation where there was no conflict in Minneapolis.
14:24Trump and his advisers have sent more federal agents there than there are police by a large order of magnitude
14:32in order to create conflict with the local residents of the town.
14:36And that would then become the justification for sending in active duty American military.
14:42This is another longstanding fantasy of Donald Trump's that goes back to his first term in office.
14:49He's determined to use the military to swaddle himself in their glory.
14:53And what's really shocking here is that he wants to send active duty military against American citizens
15:00and residents of a community in a conflict he himself has provoked.
15:05So I hope that there are still people around Donald Trump who will argue against this.
15:10In 2020, when the Black Lives Matter protests broke out around the country,
15:14Donald Trump also wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act.
15:17And it was only the combination of his attorney general, his defense secretary,
15:22and his chairman of the Joint Chiefs who argued against it.
15:25Well, those kinds of people are all gone from his administration now.
15:29The guy who was arguing in favor of the Interaction Act in 2020 was Stephen Miller,
15:35who is at Donald Trump's side now.
15:37Not any of the people who were restraining him before.
15:39And I think that's why we have to take that threat very seriously.
15:43He's at Donald Trump's side with more power than ever.
15:46Jillian, nobody in Minnesota is thinking about what's going on where you are in Europe.
15:51I want to know, are people, are leaders there in Davos talking about reacting to what's happening in Minnesota?
15:59They're far away, but they have seen the images.
16:02Absolutely.
16:03And I was actually yesterday talking to both Senator Coons and Senator Mikulski,
16:08who are here in Davos desperately trying to present a normal bipartisan cooperative American face,
16:17and if you like, the grown-up side of American politics.
16:19And they're going around talking to all the Europeans and others saying,
16:23yes, we're still here.
16:24We're trying to reach out to the world and be collaborative and constructive.
16:28But in fact, what the European leaders are seeing and the Asian leaders is an image of America
16:33which looks a bit like a Tudor royal court,
16:36where essentially you have this capricious monarch who is declaring orders based on his own personal whims.
16:44You have the courties around him essentially rushing to appease him.
16:48He's playing them off against each other and demanding that the rest of the world comes and either brings tributes,
16:55or if they're strong enough, sends an armada to use the Tudor royal court image again,
16:59and then he backs down.
17:00But this feeling of dealing with a capricious king,
17:05and in fact, I should say some non-American leaders are gossiping about whether it's a king
17:09with entirely clear-cut mental plans and things like that or not.
17:13But this feeling of dealing with a capricious king,
17:15both inside America and in the rest of the world,
17:18is one that's really frightening people right now.
17:21And of course, it's got some very dark implications.
17:24And this evening's nightmares have been brought to you by Jillian Tett.
17:28Laura, Susan, thank you so much.
17:31Ambassador, we're going to check back in with you in a bit.
17:34And Jillian, you didn't scare us quite enough.
17:36I'd like you to come back right after the break,
17:38because it will be time for Money Power Politics.
17:40Some economists are changing their tune.
17:43They are beginning to paint a rosy economic picture for 2026,
17:48despite the continuing tariff chaos.
17:50So what is driving this optimism?
17:52And later.
17:54Look closely at that calendar.
17:55It is a very important today.
17:57Today marks one month since the Epstein files.
18:00Remember that deadline?
18:01And only a fraction of the DOJ's records have even been released.
18:05So what exactly can Congress do?
18:08And are they willing to make it happen?
18:09The 11th Hour just getting underway on a Monday night.
18:12I am thrilled to be back.
18:18It is time now for Money Power Politics.
18:20And I have some real questions,
18:21because we now have some economists changing their tune on the president's economy.
18:26After dramatically slashing their forecast due to tariffs,
18:30the Wall Street Journal is reporting that some economists are now pushing up their estimates,
18:34even predicting growth above 2% for the year.
18:37So we've got to find out why.
18:39Let's bring in Rohit Chopra, former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
18:43and key advisor to Democratic States Attorneys General.
18:46And Jillian of the Financial Times still with us.
18:49Okay, Rohit, I remember where we were back in April.
18:52It felt like the sky was falling because of tariffs.
18:55What's happening now?
18:56The Supreme Court hasn't ruled them out.
18:58Well, ultimately, we know that Trump did chicken out on the biggest of those tariffs.
19:05But look, there have been some revised forecasts.
19:09But we should be very clear about the two different economies that we're dealing with.
19:14One is really for people who have assets.
19:17They have seen their wealth skyrocket.
19:21The top 10% in the U.S. now have 90% of all stock market wealth.
19:29Meanwhile, you really see everybody else.
19:32Many are struggling with prices, with debt.
19:36And we see young people reporting some of the bigger challenges of after college,
19:42getting a job, 45% underemployed.
19:47So there really is two different pictures here.
19:50And the vast majority are not so happy.
19:53Jillian, let's stay right there.
19:55For those who might not have money in the stock market, life is a whole lot more expensive, right?
20:00Because of AI, lots of stocks are up.
20:02Because of AI, lots of those young people aren't getting jobs.
20:06And now there's new research showing that it was, in fact, American consumers and importers
20:11that absorbed 96% of the tariff costs.
20:15So how exactly do we define economic success?
20:19To Rohit's point, there's two separate economies.
20:23Absolutely.
20:24And the buzzword everyone's using to describe that is a K-shaped economy on the idea that
20:29for the wealthy, things are just going up and up and up, like the top bit of a K.
20:33For everyone else, it's going down.
20:35But you put a finger on a really important point, which is that even as the geopolitical
20:41clouds darken and people get very gloomy about geopolitics, in fact, here in Davos,
20:47where I'm speaking from, there is actually a real sense of optimism amongst many CEOs
20:51about where the economy is going and about what they think their company is going to be
20:56looking at in the next year in terms of demand.
20:59Now, the one big caveat is there's also fear that if these Greenland tensions spin out of
21:05control and the Europeans retaliate in ways that focus on financial services and digital
21:10services, then you could start to see really nasty shocks to, say, the dollar or the U.S.
21:15government bond market that could really impact the economy overall.
21:19But at the moment, the paradox is that even as the political scene looks uglier, in fact,
21:25the economy continues to look quite reassuring.
21:27But isn't that extraordinary, Jillian, if the president would just put his pencil down
21:32on Greenland, if he would back off on tariffs, he could be in a situation with an economy
21:38really growing, and that would be a tremendous win for him.
21:41And he could still have all his side hustles, still making all his Trump money on the side.
21:46Absolutely.
21:47I mean, that is indeed the paradox.
21:48And one way to read what's happened with the reaction to tariffs and the fact that they
21:53haven't smashed the economy so far is that the underlying parts of the economy are actually
21:58quite strong.
21:59And so, in fact, if nothing was happening on the geopolitical front, you could be looking
22:03at a very optimistic picture right now because of these extraordinary tech and productivity
22:08changes.
22:09However, the big cloud is fear that geopolitical tensions are going to lead to some kind of
22:15financial crisis or real trade shock that will drag that down.
22:20Rohit, what do you think about that?
22:23Because the Supreme Court might not knock down Trump's tariffs, and he may move forward with
22:29Greenland.
22:30To Jillian's point, the shocks around the world, what could that look like economically?
22:36Well, there's two effects of this.
22:38One, I think Europeans, others, they do realize a lot of this is talk.
22:44Remember, Trump also said earlier he was going to, I don't know, annex Canada or the Panama Canal.
22:53A lot of that, of course, hasn't come true.
22:55But I think what is happening behind the scenes is a lot of countries, a lot of central banks,
23:01a lot of finance ministers, they're starting to drift away from the U.S. dollar in their
23:08foreign exchange holdings.
23:10They're starting to move away in terms of their own economic strategies as separate and apart from
23:16us.
23:17We saw the deal that Canada made with China last week.
23:20So I'm worried that the rest of the world is going to come up and chart a course on the economy
23:28that may leave a lot of our folks out of that.
23:33And I think that's a big mistake.
23:34All right.
23:36New topic.
23:36Jillian, Fed Chair Jay Powell is going to attend Supreme Court arguments this week on the
23:42president's efforts to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.
23:45This is highly, highly unusual.
23:48What do you make of it?
23:50Well, if you want yet another sign that American policy is looking extremely turbulent and capricious,
23:56then this is one more sign that you've got a tax on the Federal Reserve, which people are
24:02alarmed about from an investment perspective.
24:05Now, one of the things in Davos that has really alarmed the Europeans is that Treasury Secretary
24:10Besant was seen as being in some ways the grown up in the room for a long time that was keeping the
24:16financial markets calm by essentially doing some very clever footwork around the bond markets and the
24:21dollar. But the fact that he came out over the weekend and essentially supported the president's
24:26line on Greenland so strongly has really spooked a number of investors.
24:31And one of the most striking signs of this alarm is the fact that once again, the gold price and the
24:36silver price is rocketing higher as people start to say, I'm not so sure that the dollar is going to be
24:43such a trustworthy asset in the long term.
24:45So when you see these kind of attacks on the Fed, attempts to undermine the independence of Fed
24:51policy, that simply adds to the feeling of people getting very nervous and looking for ways to hedge
24:57or to protect themselves against the downside risks around American assets at the moment.
25:02It's so funny you say that about Besant. A senior banker source to me called me today and said,
25:09we all thought Scott Besant would be the linebacker playing defense. And it turned out
25:14he was captain of the cheerleading squad. OK, Rohit, Powell is also under investigation himself right
25:21now. But could the DOJ's inquiry into him make it harder for Trump to replace Powell, which is what
25:27he ultimately wants to do? Well, I think we have this big Supreme Court oral argument this week,
25:34and this is really going to be something that could chart a lot, a path forward of what Trump gets
25:41to do with the Fed. This is going to be tricky because Fed and central bank independence,
25:47it's not enshrined in law. But we know that Trump and the White House want full control over it,
25:54not just because of interest rates, but it is another way to be able to reward friends and punish
26:01enemies. So right now, I think it's already having its effect. I think independence is largely done.
26:08There are now Federal Reserve governors who have to worry that the White House will launch a criminal
26:15investigation on them if they do not play ball. I think this is going to be just another way that
26:23regardless of what this court case says, every single person taking those votes on interest rates
26:29knows there is someone hovering and watching them. It might not be enshrined in law, Rohit,
26:35and I know we're out of time, but I'm going to bet Jillian agrees with me. It might not be enshrined in
26:40law, but it's hugely important to bond investors and the bond market. And last I checked, that's more
26:48important to Donald Trump than the law is. All right, gang, thank you for joining me tonight.
26:53We're out of time. Jillian, thank you for waking up this early. I know how busy things are in Davos.
26:58It's wall to wall out there. When we return, lawmakers voted to release the Epstein files and
27:03the president, speaking of laws, signed it into law. But where are they? We are one month past the
27:10deadline and less than one percent of it has been released. Why Republicans on the Hill are staying
27:17very, very quiet about the delay. That's next. We are now one month past the deadline for the
27:26Justice Department to release the Epstein files. Remember those? Well, we didn't forget about them.
27:31Less than one percent have actually been published since then. And last week, the Justice Department
27:37said it made, quote, substantial progress on reviewing the materials, but said nothing about
27:43when they would actually be released. However, some of the Republican lawmakers who actually
27:48pushed for transparency, they appeared to have moved on from the situation. Colorado representative
27:54Lauren Boebert told the following to Politico, quote, I don't give a rip about Epstein. There's so
27:59many other things we need to be working on. I've done what I had to do for Epstein. Talk to somebody
28:04else about that. It is no longer in my hands. End quote. Barbara McQuaid, a veteran federal prosecutor
28:10and former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, joined us. Barb, I need this explained.
28:16It is a month past the deadline and almost none of the files, almost none of the files have been
28:23released. The DOJ claims it's working on it. Like, what are the legal consequences, right? Congress votes,
28:29the president signs it into law, and then it just doesn't happen. How does this work?
28:32Yeah. You know, it reminds me, Steph, an awful lot of the TikTok law that was passed by Congress
28:39went into place a year ago. It required TikTok to divest from its parent by dance, and it didn't.
28:47And Donald Trump has just sort of unilaterally kept extending that deadline. In the same way here,
28:53there's no real consequence for the failure of the Justice Department to comply with this law.
28:59Not only were they supposed to have produced all of the documents by December 19th, 15 days after
29:05that, they were supposed to provide a log that explained any categories of documents that were
29:10withheld and explaining who was behind the redaction bars to Congress. They haven't done that either.
29:17I think Donald Trump is just gaming on the theory that who's going to make him? Congress? The remedy
29:25for refusal, I suppose, would be impeachment. And that just seems like a bridge too far these days.
29:31OK, well, do this math for me. Back in July, when the DOJ and the FBI released a memo,
29:38it said that they had done an exhaustive review of all the documents. Yet last week,
29:43they said they now have 500 reviewers, including 80 lawyers from the criminal division that are now
29:51involved. What do you make of how this process has unfolded?
29:56It's just been a mess. You know, it's either a reflection of incompetence or duplicity.
30:04They said they had it under control months ago. One of the things that has been so surprising to me
30:10is that they said they received something like an additional 2 million documents or some number like
30:15that from the Southern District of New York after the deadline had passed. That, again, strikes me as
30:22highly unusual because of the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell actually went to trial. And so before a defendant
30:29goes to trial, you need to gather and review all of the documents because the defendant is entitled to
30:35receive any material that is potentially exonerating to them. And so the fact that they didn't review
30:42it would not make sense to me before the trial. If they did review it, why was that not disclosed to
30:49the Justice Department immediately back in the summer when they were gathering these materials
30:53together? It just doesn't make sense. And I think that what really needs to happen is if members of
30:59Congress are not going to continue to pressure the Justice Department to release them, then I think
31:04the public needs to.
31:05Okay. Well, can you explain this one? Because Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey, who've
31:10been leading this whole thing, are now requesting the appointment of a special master, essentially
31:15to police how the White House is releasing these files. To your very point, either it's really sloppy
31:21or duplicitous. And the Justice Department says they don't have the standing to do so. Can you explain
31:27what's going on here?
31:27Yeah, it is an unusual request. But of course, nothing about this case is usual. In the district
31:36court case that oversaw this, the grand jury investigation, there has been some litigation
31:43there that has occurred, including these members of Congress asking the judge to appoint this special
31:49master to review the documents. It would be highly unusual to do that. We've got a statute that requires
31:56the production and the DOJ is in violation of that statute. It seems to me more likely that the
32:04members of Congress, Congressman Khanna, Congressman Massey may need to file a separate lawsuit to seek
32:11the enforcement of that statute. What they're trying to do is sort of bootstrap this prior case where
32:20the judge is overseeing the grand jury production to get it to comply with the statute. I don't know
32:26that they're going to have standing to do that in this case. But I think they might if they file
32:30their own lawsuit. I think, of course, the hazards there is that could take a lot more time.
32:36Barb, we are out of time. And maybe that's a blessing because what I really wanted was your
32:39best educated guess of what we have a higher probability of getting. Ghislaine Maxwell with
32:45a commuted sentence or these files. And I don't actually think I want to know what your answer is.
32:50Barb, it is great to see you. I hope you come back soon.
32:52When we return, the president's so-called board of peace is drawing serious skepticism
32:58from the price of admission to the list of leaders who are invited or not invited to join.
33:04How this could truly shake up the world order. We have so much to get to right after the break.
33:15Okay. Of the many things I wanted to talk to you about when I was away, this is high on the list.
33:20We have got to talk about the president's board of peace. It was initially approved by the United
33:26Nations to oversee solutions to the Israel Hamas conflict. But there are some big questions about
33:31what the purpose actually is. According to a draft charter for the proposed group seen by Bloomberg,
33:37quote, the Trump administration is asking countries that want a permanent spot on Trump's
33:43board of peace to contribute at least a billion bucks. Trump would serve as its inaugural chairman
33:49and he would decide who's invited. Bloomberg also reports, quote, the draft appears to suggest
33:57Trump himself would control the money. Michael McFaul is back with us to discuss. He's,
34:03of course, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia and MSNOW international affairs analyst.
34:07Michael, what do you think about this?
34:14Crazy town. Absolutely absurd. Not in America's national interest. Doesn't advance our security
34:22or our prosperity or our values. It seems to be a plot, a program to advance Mr. Trump. And I'm using
34:31Mr. on purpose, Mr. Trump's personal interests. It's very it's not clear what the money is going
34:38to be used for. It's all vague. And on top of it all, he invited Putin to join Putin, our alleged
34:45enemy who's about to annex Greenland. If we don't do it first, he's now inviting Putin to join the peace
34:52committee, the peace board. It just makes no sense. And it'll go away after he's no longer president.
34:58I think it'd be very imprudent for any foreign leader to join.
35:02Does it make no sense or does it make perfect sense, given who Donald Trump is and what he
35:07wants to do? There's concerns that he wants to basically set up a rival or a replacement
35:12to the United Nations, except he's going to control it.
35:17Well, that could very well be his personal preferences. That's a good point. Whenever I
35:22think about foreign policy, I think about the American national interests. I don't think about
35:26Trump's personal interests. And that, you know, that's what the reporting says. He wants an
35:32alternative to the United Nations. But let's just be clear. If we're going it alone, we're acting like
35:38a unilateral imperialist all over the world. Who is going to want to join a club with us? With
35:45President Trump or Mr. Trump, if it's after his presidency, nobody's going to want to play with
35:51us. Nobody's going to want to be on our team. And that's why this will be much ado about nothing.
35:56Not not necessarily right now. Right now, there's going to be coercion. Bullies get their way in the
36:01short term. But in the long term, nobody's going to be a want to be a part of this. And by the way,
36:07I want to remind everybody, we may be pulling out of the United Nations, right? Trump just did that
36:12a couple of weeks ago. By the way, he pulled out of 40 multilateral organizations and it was barely a
36:18blip on the screen because there's so much other news. But he may want to pull out of
36:23United Nations organizations and other multilateral organizations and create his own club. But nobody
36:29else does. Nobody else is going to follow him to join this club. But let's go back to what you said
36:34in the middle. On one hand, we're saying nobody else is going to follow or are they because they're
36:39pressured into doing so and they don't want to be on the wrong side of the United States or really
36:44on the wrong side of Donald Trump? Those are two very different things. I'm glad you phrased it
36:50that way. They don't want to be on the wrong side of Donald Trump. And we see that all over the
36:54world. Leaders, especially from weak countries, feel the coercive power of President Trump and they
37:02have to try to get along. With strong countries, by the way, no coercion, right? Russia, China, they can
37:07do whatever they want. The weak countries have to get along, but they'll only do it for as long as they
37:13have to. And the minute he is no longer president, this thing falls apart. And therefore, I think
37:19they're just going to be hedging their bets, playing along, talking about committees, talking
37:24about future payments. But I think most leaders in the world, there'll be a few that will want to
37:29pal around with President Trump. But most leaders of the world want to be part of the current
37:35international community, the current United Nations, and hopefully see that someday the United States,
37:42not Mr. Trump, the United States, might come back to that old international system as well.
37:49But in the meantime, they'll be pressured or coerced into coughing up a billion dollars that
37:54he'll control because he would reportedly have the power to remove members, designate his own successor
38:00as chairman. And again, these other countries might detest it, but they're weaker than the United States.
38:06And if he says pay me a billion dollars, they just may do it.
38:12Well, let's see. I mean, the weakest ones with money will, right? So you think about the oil
38:17exporters in the Middle East. They have cordial relations with the president. I can see them going
38:22along. If you're a middle power, you're a great power, you have any ability not to do it, they're not
38:28going to be a part of it. The interesting category will be those that are very weak, that have no
38:33choice, but also can't afford to give a billion dollars. I think you will see a lot of drama about
38:40those kind of countries. I just want to read this one quote then that The Atlantic wrote.
38:45This seems like Trump is sort of upending the post-World War II world order. They write,
38:50Americans are entering the most dangerous world they have known since World War II,
38:55one that will make the Cold War look like child's play and the post-Cold War look like paradise.
39:03We're almost out of time, but I had to share this quote. Do you agree?
39:08I worry that we're going there, in part because we're just going alone. Remember, during the Cold War,
39:14we had lots of allies. We had multilateral institutions. The president wants to go it alone.
39:19And if we go it alone, we will lose the 21st century great power competition with China,
39:25first and foremost. But I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll come back. This is a temporary moment,
39:31and eventually we'll get back to playing a role, a constructive role in the international order,
39:37which we, after all, created in 1945. It was the United States of America that created this system.
39:43We shouldn't abandon it now.
39:45Ambassador, professor, thank you for joining us. Thank you for making us smarter.
39:49Sure.
39:50When we return, people across the country honor the life and legacy of civil rights leader,
39:56Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. today. But the most defining moments of that era may not be reaching
40:02the nation's future leaders, America's youth. This is an important, important conversation.
40:07We're getting into it next.
40:09The last thing before we go tonight, I want to recognize this important day. Our nation is
40:19remembering Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Marches and tributes were held nationwide earlier today
40:25in honor of the slain civil rights leader. In his work, he championed equality and nonviolent activism
40:31in the face of racial discrimination in the 1960s. A wreath was laid by politicians and faith leaders
40:37at Dr. King's memorial in Washington, D.C. On this, the 41st observation of MLK Day,
40:45Axios writes the following.
40:46The civil rights era is losing its grip on young Americans. They point out that younger Americans
40:52are now several generations removed from the era's defining moments, and less than half of our states
40:58now require comprehensive teachings of it in school. So during this very challenging moment
41:03in our nation's history, it is more important than ever that we remember and share the teachings
41:09of Dr. King. And I just want to close tonight by sharing what has been my favorite quote
41:15from this extraordinary man. Darkness. Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that.
41:22Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that. So let's be the light and do our best to love one
41:32another as we continue into this new and challenging year. Let's not just stand in the light. Let's be the
41:40light. And on that very important note, I wish you a very good night from all of us here at MSNOW. Thanks for
41:48staying up late. I'll see you at the end of tomorrow.
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