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Docuseries Seven Wonders of the Ancient World with Episode 01 The Great Pyramid of Giza and The Light
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00:00Hello, everyone. My name is Harrison Mark with World History Encyclopedia, and today I am
00:12absolutely delighted to be joined by Professor Bettany Hughes, who is a multi-award winning
00:18historian, author, and broadcaster. She's a research fellow of King's College London and
00:24professor of history at the New College of the Humanities. She's written and produced over 50
00:32documentaries in radio and TV, including one that we'll get into later coming out, and the author of
00:39many books, including this one right here, The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, a delightful book
00:44that came out January of 2024, I believe. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a wonderful book. We'll
00:50be talking more about this, but before we get into that, I just want to say, Bettany, thank you for
00:55joining us, and it's great to meet you. Yeah, lovely, lovely to be here, and I'm a big fan of World
01:00History Encyclopedia, so I'm really pleased to be talking to you. Oh, that's great. I'm glad to hear
01:04that. Yeah, genuinely, you know, I'm not just saying it. It's so helpful and such a delight to have
01:11something like that available for everybody. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely great working here. I love
01:17this job, and likewise, we're a big fan of yours. I've been reading your book, and I have to say,
01:23for anybody interested, it is very, not only is the subject matter interesting, as we'll get into,
01:28but it's very enthusiastically written. It's such a delight to read. Before we get into that,
01:35I just wanted to ask you more about your background, specifically your interest in ancient history.
01:42I know that you studied ancient history and modern history as an undergraduate at Oxford,
01:48so I was just wondering what drew you specifically to ancient history? Yeah, it's a good question,
01:55and, you know, the good historian's answer is there are lots of contributing factors to that, so
02:00I think it's probably three major things, though. The first is that when I was very young, when I was
02:07just five, I was taken to the Tutankhamun exhibition at the British Museum, and I remember being blown
02:14away by the golden face mask of Tutankhamun and suddenly thinking, all these stories I'd heard
02:20about mysterious deaths and boy kings buried in gold and hidden treasure, it was true, you know,
02:26and I was looking at it in front of me, and I was so inspired by it. I actually wrote my first book,
02:31which was my thesis on how Tutankhamun had died, and I kind of got it right because I said
02:37some mosquitoes, well, S-U-M, mosquitoes who were a bit germy bit him and he died, and we now do think
02:44that he probably had malaria, so that was a contributive factor to his death, so I think that
02:49was an initial exposure. Then when I was a teenager, everybody was telling me that how unfashionable
02:57history was, that history was irrelevant, that, you know, the year 2000 was approaching, that
03:02it was, this was something which had no place in the modern world and that people weren't interested,
03:09and I just knew that wasn't right, so it was almost a negative that forced me to think this is what I
03:15want to spend the rest of my life pursuing, because I knew it was this extraordinary reservoir of truth
03:22and ideas and stories and, you know, experiences that needed to be shared, so I think, as I said,
03:29it was that sort of negative, and then once I read ancient and medieval history at Oxford,
03:38I knew that this was what I wanted to devote my life to. I was absolutely determined that that
03:47ancient world should be communicated with all the big hitters, the greats, you know, the ancient
03:53Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans, but all the others in between as well, so yeah, so it was, it
03:58was, it was a sort of series of, series of reasons. Yeah, that's, I agree that that's a very important
04:04reason to get into it, and I think there's a common perception that people, especially ancients,
04:09were, you know, so primitive and so different than we are today, and one thing that I definitely
04:15picked up while going through your book is, you know, people have always had such big egos, such
04:20a desire to want to change the world, but of course, there's also your everyday people, like the people
04:25building the pyramids and such, which I find fascinating, just realizing how similar and yet
04:31how different we've been across time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but yes, anyway, back to you.
04:40No, but it's a really good, you know, it's nice to be chatting about this, because you're absolutely
04:43right, and it's, you know, it's one of the reasons I wrote this particular book, actually, about the
04:49wonders, because something that I see through the human story is that we are hardwired for wonder.
04:58We want to create wonderful things, we want to collaborate beyond the possibility of the
05:03individual, which, and wonders can only be created as a sort of extreme act of collaboration. We want to
05:10visit those wonders, and then we want to share that experience with others and tell stories about it,
05:16and that's something that the ancients were doing, and that we're still doing today, you know, and
05:23the Seven Wonders, as you know from having read the book, they aren't made up. They are seven real
05:29monuments that existed basically around the eastern Mediterranean and into Mesopotamia in the Middle East,
05:36and there was a real list that set down these seven, a bucket list in effect for travellers.
05:43And people would go to see the Seven Wonders and to literally tick them off the list,
05:48and that's something that people still aspire to today. So yeah, there is obviously a lot that
05:53separates us, but you know, for me one of the deep joys of history is finding those experiential moments
06:00where the centuries melt away and you're reading about somebody doing something that feels incredibly
06:07familiar to us in the 21st century. And yeah, I guess sort of going off of that, how exactly did you
06:15get interested in the Seven Wonders? Was it just this whole idea that we've been talking about?
06:20Yeah, it was a mixture of that, of feeling kind of, you know, at an emotional level that wonder matters,
06:26and that we need to explore what wonder is, how we need wonder in our lives, how we seek wonder.
06:33And then the more kind of academic reason was that I just knew there were so many really thrilling
06:39archaeological digs that were coming, that were revealing to us how the Seven Wonders were built,
06:44so you know, solving some of their mysteries, that it felt like it was the right time to write the book,
06:48to share all that new archaeological research and material.
06:52Oh, very cool. Awesome. And as we've discussed prior to this interview, not only is the Seven Wonders
06:59a book by Bettany Hughes, but it is also about to be a television series, which sounds very exciting.
07:08I know you've been part of over 50 television and radio documentaries. How exactly did you get into
07:15broadcasting in the in the first place? Yeah, well, actually, really interestingly,
07:20again, it was a sort of negative that spurred me to do that. But as you know, we've just been
07:25describing, I'm passionate about history, I'm passionate about the stories, it really feels to
07:28me that this is information and context of our world that needs sharing. And I noticed when I was at
07:36university and doing my postgraduate work that there were no female historians on television. I was
07:41surrounded by a lot of female historians in my real life, you know, but there were none that were allowed
07:47the kind of authorship of presenting on television. And I remember, I went to see a BBC producer,
07:54this is in the kinds of 1990s, and taught, you know, I've got to say, you know, with great kinds of
08:03alacrity and enthusiasm about how these were stories that needed to be told, how extraordinary
08:10it would be, for instance, to look at the Spartan culture and focus not just on its men, but on its
08:16women. And again, what we were talking about before, how these were reservoirs of truth and
08:21understanding that we needed to access. And I realised that I was doing all of the talking,
08:26there was a sort of chill wind of disapproval from coming across from the desk opposite me,
08:30tumbleweed blowing through the office. And I remember this BBC producer saying,
08:34can I just tell you three things? One, nobody is interested in history anymore. Shocking for us
08:42to hear that. But I can sort of understand, I don't agree with it, but I can understand why he said that
08:49then, because this was in the 1990s, when the year 2000 was ahead. And there was almost this notion
08:54there was going to be a giant reset button set on civilisation. So I don't agree with it,
08:59but I could sort of understand what he was saying. Then he said, two, nobody watches history programmes
09:05on television anymore. And three, nobody wants to be lectured at by a woman. And this is the 1990s,
09:14it's not the 1890s. So I just remember thinking, I have to prove you wrong. So that gave me the fire in
09:21my belly to continue. But I think also the truth is that because the work that I do,
09:28a lot of it is based in the ancient world. So we're using archaeology a lot. So by definition,
09:33that is often material that is out in the field, and you have to travel to see it. So actually,
09:40those journeys of discovery lend themselves quite well to television. So I'm doing them anyway. So why not
09:45have somebody along with me who documents it, you know, for eternity. So that's, that was how I got
09:51into television, sort of by accident. But I'm passionately committed to it. Because I think,
09:57you know, we're talking now, on a laptop, what people get out of this rectangle in front of them,
10:05really, really, really matters. And there's a lot of inauthentic material, there's a lot of made up
10:09material, there's a lot of very negative material. So if we can get stories of the past,
10:14and of past cultures and the cultural heritage out into the world, then it that that's a worthwhile
10:20pursuit.
10:22Couldn't agree more. And does that also lead into why you decided to set up your own production
10:27company, Sandstone Global Productions? Was that sort of along the same lines?
10:32Yeah, it was. And it was really that was so that we had more agency to film, produce, and then to
10:39share a real variety of stories from history. Because again, I was very aware that the few
10:45programs that were getting commissioned tended to be about ancient Egypt, about World War Two,
10:51and the Nazis, or maybe about the Tudors, you know, obviously, there are lots, lots of others as well.
10:56But that tended to be the kind of programs that were being made. But obviously, the whole world has its own
11:03history. And so I wanted to try to facilitate that so that other stories could be told. So,
11:09you know, for instance, I'm traveling to Uzbekistan in a couple of weeks to do the story of the Silk
11:16Roads. We've just been filming in Croatia, on the beautiful coastline of Croatia, talking about these
11:23amazing Neolithic settlements that have been discovered under the water. And it's only because I
11:29have my own production company that we can really force that through sort of, I'm very,
11:35I don't like the word no. So I'm very good at sitting in a room and going, you have to, you know,
11:40this is something that has to be shown. So yes, it just gave us more agency to ensure that it was
11:45a diverse international representative history, a slate of programs that was being produced and being shared.
11:56Well, that's absolutely fantastic. And along the lines of programs, I suppose it's time we get into
12:03your exciting new one coming out, The Seven Wonders. If you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about that?
12:08Yes, yes, certainly. So based on the book, as you can imagine, so I spent seven years in the field
12:15writing the book, and realized again, that this material was so visual, so exciting, so dynamic,
12:21so much brand new archaeology to share. It felt like it would be crazy not to make a television series
12:28following the book. And I never just, out of interest, I always write a book first. And then
12:34if the television happens, it happens. It's never, it's never the other way around, because you have
12:38to do that depth of research for the book, which then helps and complements the television series.
12:44So yeah, so this is very exciting. So it's the story of The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
12:50I follow in the footsteps of those ancient travelers, so sometimes traveling as they did, by boat,
12:56occasionally by horse and carriage to go to see the wonders themselves. But what we've done
13:03excitingly with this is introduce an augmented reality experience that accompanies the program.
13:09So we've done graphic recreations of The Seven Wonders, so that you can, on your screens,
13:17watch them grow where they originally stood. So I'm standing, for instance, you know,
13:21on the top of the island of Rhodes, watching the Colossus of Rhodes grow in front of me,
13:26or watching the Great Pyramid be encased in that beautiful, shining white limestone that encases it.
13:32So yeah, so it's very exciting, and that series launches in three weeks' time. So yeah,
13:40so it will be available on a screen near you soon.
13:44That's very exciting. And to everyone watching, make sure you don't miss it. I think it's going to be
13:48amazing. But yeah, before we go on, I think we should probably, for the uninitiated out there,
13:55go over what The Seven Wonders are, maybe what makes them so wonderful. I don't know if you want
14:02to go through them chronologically, or however you do it. Yeah, yeah, chronologically is really good.
14:10So, and I find it helps me to remember them, even five years into writing the book, okay,
14:14Jack, oh, you know, which is number five. So starting chronologically, it's The Great Pyramid of Giza,
14:20the oldest of the wonders, 4,600 years old, still standing pretty much intact. I mean, just, you know,
14:28an astonishing monument to human ingenuity. Then the second oldest is The Hanging Gardens of Babylon,
14:36in what is now modern-day Iraq. And really interestingly, in the book and in the television
14:42series, we asked this question about was there a single Hanging Gardens of Babylon, or does this
14:47actually refer to a number of gardens in Babylon, one in Babylon and one in Nineveh, ancient Nineveh,
14:54modern-day Mosul. Sort of heading slightly further west, there's the Great Temple of Artemis at Ephesus,
15:02which is in modern-day Turkey, which was a huge sanctuary to the goddess, the Eastern Artemis. And
15:10that was just an astonishing, astonishing construction. So the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus, when it was originally built,
15:18and then with its amendments through the centuries, was twice the size of the Parthenon Temple on the
15:24Acropolis in Athens. And we think the Acropolis Temple in Athens is a pretty mammoth building,
15:30but this was twice the size. And then in a way, it was a sort of mothership of all Greek and Roman temples.
15:37They're based on the model of the Sanctuary of Artemis. It must have been astonishing in its heyday,
15:45you know, glittering with gold. Croesus, again, not a mythical figure, a real king from the region,
15:50decorated the Temple of Artemis with gold. Then the statue was used at Olympia, where the Olympian games
15:56were founded, the mausoleum of Halicarnassus, the Colossus of Rhodes, and of course, the Great Lighthouse
16:05of Alexandria in Northern Egypt.
16:09Yeah, quite the list there.
16:11Quite, quite the list, yeah.
16:13And you mentioned in your book how this came from a certain period, I think the Hellenistic period,
16:20like right after Alexander the Great, when people were, you know, in a fad of writing lists, as you say.
16:27So, yeah, how exactly, or why exactly were these specific wonders compiled into this list?
16:37Yeah, I think it's definitely a size matters list. They're all enormous, these wonders,
16:44and they are, I think that is one of the reasons that they earned their place on the list, that they
16:48were really monumental. Because what's really fascinating is that the earliest extant list that
16:55we have on a scrap of papyrus from the banks of the River Nile, papyrus that was used to mummify a
17:02body and was rescued and is now a document called the Lataculi Alexandrini, which, given its name,
17:10probably because it was written down in the city of Alexandria, was basically a list of lists. So,
17:17it's a list of the seven finest mountains, the seven most beautiful rivers, the seven greatest artists,
17:24the seven greatest generals, and the seven wonders of the ancient world. So, I think they were chosen
17:29to represent, as I said, sort of extraordinary ambition in their creation and construction,
17:36but also the sheer scale and size of them. So, there are lots of other buildings, obviously,
17:42that were wonderful at the time, but these were put on that list because they were just so huge.
17:48Wow. And, of course, you visited these sites. That'll be apparent in the show. What was it like?
17:56What was it like visiting these sites? Even though most of these aren't around anymore,
18:02were you able to feel sort of like the essence of these wonders as you stood where they once did,
18:08or in the case of the Great Pyramid, still do? Yeah, that's right. Well, it's ironic that the
18:13Great Pyramid is the oldest and it's the only one that is still standing pretty much intact,
18:17as we said. So, it was incredible visiting these wonders and standing in the place and the location
18:27where they were originally created. Partly because, as you say, there is something special about those
18:34places. The ancients weren't stupid. They picked locations very specifically because they had a
18:40dramatic vista. They were easily accessible on the ancient road systems. They were port cities. They were
18:47right in the centre of religious sanctuaries. So, by definition, there's something special about the
18:51places where they were built. And the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus is a particularly interesting example
18:58where it was constructed originally at a place where the sea met freshwater springs. So, it's very marshy
19:06still. It's on a seismic fault. So, it was constantly falling down as a result of earthquakes and the Temple of Artemis
19:16had actually had this very ingenious anti-earthquake engineering that was employed as part of its construction
19:27where charcoal and sheep's fleeces were kind of laid in the foundations to help provide some
19:36stability when it was rocking. And yet, the people, the ancients never built it anywhere else. They
19:43always went back to that site, even though in some ways, as I said, marshy, earthquake-prone, it's not the ideal
19:49place to build a site. But they're just, there is definitely something, there is definitely a sort of
19:55special atmosphere to it. And I don't know whether it's just a kind of trick of the of the geography,
19:59but everybody who goes there still feels that. But you're right, apart from the Great Pyramid,
20:04most of them don't exist still. But you do get a sense, as I say, of the grandeur of their location
20:14and also just travelling and finding these little, these scattered remnants of evidence for all of them
20:23in, without exception, in each location, there is still archaeology in the ground that tells us
20:30something about what they were like in their heyday.
20:34Yeah, wow. And as you touched on, the fact that more things are being discovered about these sites,
20:41you know, every year, probably, maybe even more frequently, is incredible, to be constantly learning about
20:49these sites that we've all heard about, but maybe we don't know so much about.
20:55Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. I was just thinking, because the last time I went to
21:00visit the Great Pyramid, I've been a few times, and one of the archaeologists working there pointed out
21:06these great big sort of dibbits in the Giza Plateau, where the Great Pyramid is built. And these were basically,
21:12originally, stone pits that had had posts in, where rope was tied to kind of map out the foundations of
21:21the pyramid. It's one of the reasons that I really adore this ancient period, because as I said, this
21:29suddenly finding these bits of evidence which helped to make up the picture of the hole. So yeah, very exciting.
21:36Yeah, yeah. And yeah, unfortunately, we don't have much time to go over each wonder in detail. But I was
21:45wondering if there were any specific one that, you know, spoke to you, maybe more so than the others,
21:53or if you had a favorite wonder of them? I have a soft spot for the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus,
22:01because it's the one that people always forget. It's the last one that they remember on the list.
22:04And yet, it was this wonder, which was an extraordinary sanctuary that offered asylum to
22:12those who sought asylum. So all kinds of people, you know, the some of the murderers, the assassins
22:18of Julius Caesar fled there for asylum. So actually, it's lived life was really extraordinary. And you
22:24do get that sense when you go to the Temple of Artemis. And I would say, apart from, of course, you know,
22:30the Great Pyramid of Giza, the closets of roads, the hanging guards of Babylon, all these extraordinary
22:34places. I think maybe the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is my secret second favorite, partly because
22:43people just don't realize that it was because this was the tomb of the Great King Mausolus
22:48that it was called the Mausoleum after him. So it's where all mausoleums get their name from the
22:55Mausoleum of Halicarnassus in Bodrum, which is in modern day Turkey. And I love it because it was
23:03also built by his wife, Artemisia. And although the official stories in the history, history accounts
23:10tell us that after Mausolus died, Artemisia was so wracked with grief that she pined away and drank a
23:19mixture of his ashes mixed with his funeral pyre and then eventually sort of faded and died. That's
23:25total nonsense. We know that she survived him, that she continued the completion of the Mausoleum, that she
23:32hosted poetry recitals and recitals of rhetoric and funeral games in the sanctuary around the Mausoleum.
23:40So it's a sort of unusual place, the Mausoleum. And it must have, it must have looked incredible,
23:46because it was built by Mausolus, the Carian ruler, along with Artemisia, his Carian wife.
23:52And the Carians were very good at kind of keeping everyone on side. So they were amazing mercenaries,
23:59amazing. They were sort of a bit like the Amazon service of the ancient world. They were amazing
24:03traders. So they looked both east and west. And you see that in the Mausoleum. So you have kinds of
24:09a local pediment, Greek-style columns, a little mini pyramid on the top, surmounted by this amazing
24:19four-horse chariot carrying Artemisia and Mausolus up to the heavens, up to the sky. And a lot of that
24:27statuary we know from the remnants, and you can still see this on some of the stones, was painted in
24:32these bright, faulty colors, and deep reds, and blues, and golds. So I just think it must have
24:38been an astonishing thing to see if you were a trader 2,300 years ago, as you sailed into those
24:44ports in what is now Turkey. Wow. And yeah, the whole like, brightly colored thing, I think there's
24:51a misconception today, because all that survives is like, you know, worn marble from the ancient world,
24:56that everything was like, you know, white, or kind of colorless. But like, you know,
25:04the ancient world was very colorful, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely gaudy. And, you know,
25:13all the inscriptions, again, you know, if you think of Mausolus's name, then his name would have been
25:18picked out in red paint. And the statues had sort of lovely cinnabar lips, so they look like they had
25:25lipstick on and even highlighters on their cheeks. So yeah, yeah, it was a very, very bright and vivid
25:30world, the ancient world. And if you could choose one other piece of the ancient world to be the
25:39eighth wonder, I don't know if you've given this thought, but what would you choose? What would you
25:44add on to the list? Yeah, I mean, it's a brilliant question. And I've got to say, it's a really hard
25:51question to answer. Because there are so many astonishing places, it might be that it would be
25:58that the great city of Pergamon in again, in Asia Minor, modern day Turkey, or Persepolis in what is
26:04now Iran, or even Stonehenge, you know, where I am sitting here in the in the UK. But I think if if
26:12it's following that sort of rubric of the seven wonders list that it has to be it has to be huge,
26:17it has to be a place that people visit, it has to be talked about down the centuries,
26:23it might be Stonehenge, that might be that might be the monument I put on.
26:28Well, I think that's a great, great choice. Yeah, yeah. Hard to think though, isn't it?
26:32You imagine, you know, the Great Pyramid was built 4600 years ago, what are we building today that's
26:38still going to be standing in 4600 years time? Not much.
26:42Yeah, I can't think of anything. Yeah, and I was also going to ask for anybody watching this,
26:50who might get inspired to go out and be a wonder seeker themselves, try and see all the wonders,
26:55do you have any, maybe advice to share with them or anything like that?
27:01Yeah, that's a lovely question. Well, again, as we were saying, you know, the brilliant that the original
27:06seven wonders list was basically a bucket list and a kind of very practical guide for travelers. And
27:11even in those lists, particularly the ones written in around the fifth century AD, the seven wonders
27:17lists then sort of say, oh, you know, go to this particular taverna, they do amazing wine, don't
27:23don't dock at that particular port, all your luggage will get stolen. So they were very practical lists.
27:28I tell you what I would say now is take your time, you know, allow yourself to go by boat rather than by
27:35plane, allow yourself to walk to the sanctuary of Zeus at Olympia, you know, allow yourself to,
27:45if you can ride a horse, ride a horse around the ruins of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, and then
27:52it really will feel as though you're in two times at once and the centuries will collapse. So I would say,
27:58try to enjoy them as the ancients did by respecting and allowing time for your awe and wonder to reach
28:07its peak.
28:09Well, that's absolutely fantastic. Um, and yeah, as, as we come to an end of our time, uh, I was
28:16wondering two last questions. The first is, uh, what is next for you? If you're able to share after, uh,
28:22after the show comes out, which again, make sure you see it, make sure you get the book, uh, seven
28:26wonders of the ancient world and see the show. Um, what, what, um, service or channel will it be on?
28:32Yeah. So a variety, it depends. It completely depends where you, where you are in the world.
28:39So the company that made it is Sandstone Global. So if you look on the Sandstone Global website,
28:44you'll get some information of where you can see it, but it will be on premier channels, um,
28:49all over the world. So it's premiering on channel four in the UK here. It's also going on to SBS
28:54in Australia, all, all, all the good, all the good channels are taking it. So just, yeah, if you,
28:59if you have a Google search, it will tell you where you can find it wherever you live.
29:04Um, and then coming up next. So two exciting things. In fact, next week, my first ever children's
29:11book is out. I've never written, uh, an ancient history book. That's exciting. I know. Very
29:16exciting. So I've written a book called, there was a Roman in your garden, which is again,
29:21using the archeology of the Roman worlds in a treasure chest to introduce children to the idea of,
29:28of loving, um, ancient history. So that's very exciting. So that will be out next week. And then
29:34we've got a, got a very, very thrilling, um, secret television project, which maybe I'll come and talk
29:42to you again once I'm allowed to, which is traveling. Basically it's a sort of origin story of the three
29:50wise Kings, the three wise men. Um, so, so I'll come and tell you about it when I'm allowed to talk
29:56about it properly. And my next book is going to be a history of Athens, a biography of Athens, but
30:02it takes me years and years to write a book. So that will be out and about another five years time.
30:07Well, I got something to look forward to in five years. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. And,
30:13uh, yeah, I hope you enjoy those, but yeah, happy days. And it's so lovely to meet you.
30:18You're so passionate about ancient history as well.
30:20Yes. It's such a joy to talk to you. And, uh, before I let you go, I just wanted to ask real
30:25quick, if you could recommend three books, um, preferably about history, but it can be whatever
30:30for our viewers. Um, what would you recommend? Yeah. So I can tell you immediately Mythica by
30:36Emily Hauser, which is a book about the female heroines of the bronze age. So the kind of real
30:41bronze age women behind all the women that appear in the ancient Greek myths. Um, a book that I'm
30:48reading at the moment is about the story of Oman as a maritime nation and the maritime trade routes.
30:56So not just the overseas silk routes, but the maritime trade routes, which is, um, you know,
31:02absolutely fascinating because there's so much underwater archaeology that, that can be used to
31:08help us to understand that story. Um, and the third one, I'm just, just thinking,
31:13so I kind of give you a variety of stories to read. Um, it'll probably be by my friend,
31:20Peter Frankopan, who wrote those books on the Silk Roads. And he's now written one about how
31:24interconnected we are with the natural world around us. So not just connected by trade,
31:29but connected by nature. So look out for the latest Peter Frankopan book.
31:32Oh, thank you so much. Um, so yes, it was a delight talking to you. Um, and I'm looking forward to your
31:40show, the seven wonders of the world, ancient world coming out, uh, three weeks from recording,
31:45but it might be out by time this goes up. So if you're watching this, make sure to check that out,
31:49make sure to get the book and, um, thank you for taking the time to speak with us. And, uh,
31:54I look forward to talking with you again. Lovely, lovely, lovely to meet you. Keep,
31:59keep loving history. Keep loving wonder.
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