00:00We've only got general details at the moment.
00:04I mean, we understand that the police will be deployed with long arms.
00:08Assume it's the Colt M4 semi-automatic weapon they're talking about there.
00:13But we don't know the details in terms of where they're going to be deployed,
00:16how many are going to be deployed, what is their role.
00:20So those kind of details would be interesting to see.
00:23We saw Victoria make an announcement last week about the MCG,
00:27where they were, I guess, a bit more specific on the details
00:31in terms of how the police would be rolled out with those long arms.
00:34So I would be interested to see that because what we're seeing here is
00:37New Year's Eve is a much bigger event, major event,
00:41than a single sporting stadium.
00:44So I think there's greater challenges here for the New South Wales Police
00:46in terms of how they deploy those officers with that extra capability
00:50to respond to an armed event.
00:53Yeah, these long arm rifles, what is the reasoning behind arming police with them?
00:57And what do you think of that decision?
01:00Look, police have had these weapons for many years now.
01:03Like in 2017, the New South Wales Police began to roll out of the M4 carbine.
01:08In Queensland, for instance, we've always had access to rifles
01:10since the mid-1980s when I joined the QPS.
01:14But what we're seeing is that the weapons were usually stored at a station
01:17or secured in an armoured container in the back of a vehicle.
01:21You're now going to see these weapons on public display.
01:24And I think that people need to realise is that this isn't going to be
01:28what general duties policing is.
01:30This is for, I think, targeted events, specialist police coming out
01:35for major events, et cetera, to ensure there's a sense of security there
01:39and to provide deterrence also.
01:42So, you know, police with long arms are not suitable to general duties policing.
01:46You know, you don't want to be rolling around with people who are drunk
01:49or public nuisance trying to arrest them on the ground
01:51with, you know, an M4 hanging off your shoulder.
01:54It's just not conducive to effective policing.
01:57So I think they'll be limited in terms of how we see them.
02:00I don't have a problem with it.
02:01I think the threat environment that we have at the moment
02:04after Bondi has changed and the public expect to see some kind of response there.
02:11How long this will go on for, I'm not sure.
02:13Will it become a permanent fixture?
02:14It may well.
02:15That depends on what happens.
02:17But we did see in Bondi, the police were outgunned.
02:21They had pistols.
02:21The offenders had long arms.
02:23So I think this is a step in the right direction to ensure
02:25that doesn't occur again and gives the police an extra layer of capability
02:31in terms of any evolving situation involving an active armed offender.
02:35Yeah, the Premier says this is a way of providing reassurance to the community.
02:40But presumably seeing these kinds of weapons will be unsettling for some people
02:45because I guess Australians generally are just not used to seeing
02:48these kinds of weapons on our streets and police with them.
02:51How do we find the right balance when it comes to that reassurance
02:54versus, you know, causing unintentional discomfort?
02:58Yeah, look, I mean, we've seen a militarisation of police in the US
03:02where clearly the response is not suitable to policing.
03:05Like, there were some riots in Ferguson over there some years ago
03:08and the police had a .50 calibre machine gun mounted
03:10on top of an armed personnel carrier.
03:13Now, that is totally ludicrous.
03:14I mean, you're just not going to use that kind of weaponry on the public.
03:17What we are seeing here is where the police think there is a cogent threat
03:20in terms of the environment,
03:22they are providing, I guess you could say, more protection for the community.
03:27So, you know, if we look at crime, you know, crime occurs,
03:30one of the theories about crime occurring is you have suitable victim or victims,
03:33a motivated offender and a lack of guardianship.
03:36If those things are there, then it's likely the crime may occur.
03:39So what we're seeing here is that the police,
03:41the New South Wales government are saying,
03:43we're going to give more appropriate guardianship
03:46by making sure that people are aware that we have this extra capability.
03:49So you will see the weapons in public at major events.
03:53I don't think they'll become everyday events.
03:55So I would think that won't be the case.
03:57But there will also be a capability of police with long arms that you won't see.
04:01So, you know, the police you'll see will be the public order and riot squad.
04:05The police you won't see will be the tactical operations unit
04:08who are armed with this weapon and other weapons
04:10to respond to high-level threats.
04:11Yeah, I mean, that was what I wanted to ask you about last of all.
04:16I mean, just the future of this kind of policing.
04:19You mentioned last week's Boxing Day test where we saw a similar security ramp up.
04:23Do you think we're likely to see more of this as time goes on at those major events,
04:27more security, more heavily armed?
04:30Well, I think we're seeing a change in the policing environment.
04:33And that kind of started with the William Beeler shootings in Queensland
04:36where we had four officers attacked, two killed and a civilian killed
04:39by people who were armed with long arms.
04:43There has been a change in the environment.
04:45So I think, you know, the police will now look to have extra capability
04:49to respond to those events as they unfold.
04:52I mean, it's difficult to respond to or plan for, I should say, lone wolf attacks.
04:58They are deliberately very difficult for police to counter.
05:02So it's hard for the police.
05:03They generally have to kind of go, OK, well, we don't know what the exact threat is,
05:07but we have to plan to try and stop that threat.
05:10You know, as we saw in Bondi, the police were, you know, outgunned,
05:14but still advanced and, you know, were engaging those offenders
05:17and, in my opinion, terminated the event very quickly,
05:21given the resources they had and hair outgunned they were.
05:24So I think we'll see them at major events.
05:26Yes, for the time being, that will be the case.
05:29Will you see them in just police walking down the road
05:31where there's no necessary major event, things like that?
05:34I would think we're not there yet.
05:37All right.
05:38Not there yet.
05:38I will leave it there, Dr. Terry Goldsworthy,
05:40Associate Professor of Criminal Justice at Bond University.
05:43Really appreciate your thoughts.
05:44Thanks so much for joining us.
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