00:00Let me also bring in our guest now, Mohamed Rafiuddin, the program lead for CEEW joins us next.
00:07Rafiuddin, I want to understand from you why this is so critical.
00:13Like I said in the beginning, the first time I'm actually seeing the needle move
00:17when it comes to some pollution measures being taken.
00:20We know by now that at least 50 to 60% of pollutants in the national capital,
00:25especially PM 2.5, comes from our vehicles.
00:28More from two-wheelers and four-wheelers, of course.
00:31But with this step, what exactly are we expecting?
00:36So, you're right when you said that a large share of the contribution comes from transport.
00:43But I guess, you know, PUC regime itself will not be able to solve this
00:49because the way to solve this is to actually have restrictive measures on vehicles
00:56while also giving the people who are restricted to choose other forms of transport.
01:02For instance, having adequate public transport to cater to the demand that will be created by restricting these vehicles.
01:08Now, why I say the PUC regime itself is not sufficient is the PUC measures are very limited set of parameters.
01:14And it doesn't actually measure the particulate matter that's coming out of the vehicles.
01:20It looks at carbon monoxide and other constituents.
01:23So, there are plans to upgrade the PUC regime to a better regime which, you know, measures particulate matter and other things.
01:31And the second thing is that PUC is a decentralized, you know, measurement system wherein you're going to a petrol pump
01:39and you're getting your PUC check, right?
01:41So, there is a lot of opportunity for you to game the system also.
01:47And sort of, you know, I would say I would go on to the extent to say manipulate the readings too.
01:55So, PUC I don't think is a home-proof system at the moment.
01:59It's obviously been upgraded.
02:01But unless you're restricting the vehicles on-road, this problem is going to persist.
02:06But isn't BS6 as a filter a way to restrict vehicles on the road?
02:12Do you think that works?
02:14I understand it's only for Delhi and everything else, you know, continues as is.
02:19But do you think that helps?
02:21Yeah, definitely.
02:22You see, BS6 is much cleaner compared to, say, BS4 and obviously several times cleaner compared to BS3.
02:29And the fact that India has actually skipped BS5 and leapfrogged to BS6 itself, you know, a landmark thing that we've done.
02:36So, obviously, it's a stringent standard and restricting only to BS6 vehicles will definitely bring improvements.
02:43But the fact is that, you know, even BS6 vehicles, we have a lot of vehicles on the road.
02:49The volume itself is so high that unless you cut down this number also through some means and shift these people to public transport in some way,
03:00you're not going to see measurable reductions in particulate matter.
03:04Of course, there will be some reduction, but it will not be a drastic reduction in the particulate matter situation that you're seeing right now.
03:09I see.
03:10So, I'm trying to put the whole picture together.
03:13You have PUC, you have BS6 restriction, you have 50% mandatory work from home, and you have hybrid for school.
03:22All of these put together in stage four, which is graph four, basically.
03:27Actually, everything apart from odd even has been applied now almost.
03:31Do you think we are still missing odd even right now?
03:37So, some countries have tried odd even and have found success.
03:43For instance, China, for example, tried odd even.
03:48And in Mexico, there was a famous program where people initially voluntarily let go of their cars once a week.
03:54And then it became like a mandatory program, government-backed program, and it also showed measurable reductions.
04:01So, the fact of the matter is when you're not putting 50% of your vehicles on the road, obviously, you'll see a dip in concentrations.
04:10And that is something that we've also seen as a natural experiment when COVID hit and vehicles were forced to get off the road.
04:19We saw drastic reductions in particulate matter and other constituents like nitrogen dioxide and other pollutants across the country, not just in India.
04:29So, obviously, when you take out vehicles and reduce activity on the road, you will see measurable reductions for concentrations.
04:36And the current grab restrictions on, for example, mandating work from home play a role in enabling that.
04:4250% though, actually, yeah.
04:44Yeah, but play a role in enabling that.
04:46Like, for example, if a lot of private companies ask their staff to work from home, then you're reducing an unnecessary commute,
04:53either in their, whether in their private vehicles or, you know, burdening the public transport system, which is already stretched, right?
05:01So, that will bring down concentration levels.
05:05But it cannot be like a temporary measure that's like put in and then taken off.
05:10So, we need to figure out how we are going to make it a long-term measure so that we have sustained reductions.
05:15I think that's an excellent point.
05:19Are you suggesting then that we move to BS6 throughout the year?
05:25And we move to BS6 across North India, not just Delhi, but knowing fully well that the air we all breathe does not have borders and it's not like Delhi lungs are different from, you know, a human being in Noida or Gurgaon.
05:40Do you think that's where we need to go to for a sustained effort to bring down vehicular pollution?
05:46So, it cannot just be BS6.
05:49Obviously, it has to also include electrification.
05:52For example, there is opportunity to electrify your commercial fleet, your small transport that happens within the cities through the light commercial vehicles.
06:02They can obviously be electrified and there are, the technology is already available.
06:06The technology is already available for two-wheeler electrification, for example.
06:11And we've also seen a lot of electric cars on the road now.
06:15The objective obviously is to move towards cleaner fuel, but at the same time, look at how we can accelerate the electrification.
06:21So, ultimately, when you move all the vehicles to electric, then all your tailpipe emissions are gone.
06:28So, now you have to deal with other forms of pollution, like for example, you call it non-exhaust emissions.
06:33That's the dust that's getting resuspended in the air due to the vehicular movement.
06:37But that's a different problem to solve altogether.
06:39But at least if you want to reduce your tailpipe emissions, one, you'll have to move as much as possible to electrification.
06:45Where electrification is not possible, you'll have to move towards cleaner fuel standards, like BS6.
06:49And we'll probably see BS7 also in the future, coming in one or two years.
06:55Okay, last question really, Mohamed.
06:57I want to understand from you, today, the government, there were meetings today that were held at the national level as well.
07:03We are made to understand that Delhi Environment Minister was also called in, there were meetings, etc.
07:08But for me, the issue is largely that we are not engaging with other states.
07:15We are not engaging with a Haryana and a UP and a Rajasthan and a Madhya Pradesh.
07:22All of them put together and then talking about, in fact, even our metros, where again the issue is of vehicular pollution, of construction, etc.
07:30Today, if vehicular pollution were to be looked at in isolation, just fixing that one piece of the puzzle, is that going to be good enough to at least better the air by, say, 20%, 30%?
07:47Is that, that ballpark, does that make sense?
07:52Right.
07:52So, if you look at the numbers, in winter, according to the Air Quality Decision Support System, Delhi's own vehicles, Delhi's own transportation sector contributes to 14% of the air pollution.
08:04Now, here we are including NCR sources and Delhi sources together.
08:07Now, if you just look within Delhi's...
08:09Transportation sector, you mean only like buses and other vans and other trucks, etc.
08:16All vehicles.
08:16All vehicles.
08:17Commercial vehicles, private vehicles.
08:19Okay, okay.
08:19So, if I just zoom into Delhi's own boundaries, I don't look at sources from outside.
08:25If I just look at that pie, then within that pie, transportation contributes to 50% of Delhi's PM2.5.
08:33So, solving the problem within Delhi itself can give you a lot of gains, but like you said, coordinated effort across states, right, will get us the gains faster.
08:44The reason is, the vehicles that are registered in Haryana, the vehicles that are registered in UP, they come from Noida, they come from Gurgaon, into Delhi, there's free movement to and flow.
08:54So, it's not like you can solve the problem only within Delhi and expect gains, because you have to solve it NCR-y, which is why the CAQ makes this to coordinate between all these states and have a coordinated plan that works for all these states.
09:07So, solving for transportation itself can definitely give you that 20-30% gain that you're talking about.
09:16That reduction can definitely come from this sector alone.
09:20Right.
09:20So, well, I think that for me is the silver lining.
09:24If you're able to just, because it's a mammoth task to solve for India's air, right, it's a mammoth task, because we're a complicated country with lots of little things to sort of take care of.
09:34We are spread across, you know, different working class groups, and, you know, it's difficult to enforce at the cost of somebody's livelihood, at the cost of kids staying at home, at the cost of, you know, people not leeching work.
09:47So, in case, if this one piece of puzzle can be solved, we would have solved at least 20% of the pollution problem.
09:55The question now is, Beijing is offering help, our experts are telling us this, will the government act?
10:04That's the one point agenda that we really want to see.
10:07For the moment, I'll thank you for joining us for the very latest.
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