00:00Are we one step closer to peace in Ukraine?
00:03Well, Berlin was at the center of potentially decisive diplomatic talks for two days when
00:09Ukrainian and US negotiators came together to discuss how to potentially achieve peace
00:15joined by many European leaders.
00:18We now have a list of security guarantees put pen to paper that are meant to reassure
00:24Ukraine that its partners and allies have its back in guaranteeing its security.
00:29But there are still some important sticking points that need to be resolved, particularly
00:34the question over territory where we see the two sides still very far apart.
00:38And we also don't know whether Russia's Vladimir Putin is going to be willing to even agree
00:44to any kind of peace deal.
00:46And this has many people out there skeptical.
00:48Now to discuss the outcomes of these two days of diplomacy in Berlin, I spoke to Jürgen Haath.
00:55He is the foreign policy spokesperson for the conservative CDU-CSU.
01:00Thank you for being here with me.
01:02Ms. Haath, we've heard it from US President Donald Trump.
01:05We've heard it from German Chancellor Friedrich Merz.
01:07We seem to be at the closest point to possibly reaching a peace for Ukraine since Russia's invasion
01:14there started.
01:15How do you see it?
01:16Looking back four weeks ago, I would not imagine that we have such a result today on
01:24the table where United States of America, Ukraine and European states, NATO member states and European
01:32Union member states are staying so close together on the question.
01:35And the message to Putin is, this is a common position of the, so to say, Western world together
01:41with Ukraine.
01:42Please decide to accept because something better you will not have on the table.
01:47And hopefully the US President is also mentioning this position to Moscow.
01:53The decision now needs to be taken in Moscow.
01:57But the preparation was very well and a big success, by the way, also for the German Chancellor,
02:02Friedrich Merz.
02:03Are you optimistic that this is a first step towards an actual peace agreement?
02:07An actual peace agreement needs the support also from Putin.
02:12What we saw in the past was that he didn't want to go only one millimeter into the direction
02:18of Ukraine or the Western world.
02:20He felt encouraged by the behavior of the US President, who was irritating its partners
02:27in the Western world and in Ukraine.
02:30But with that what we saw yesterday, inclusive the video conference with the US President
02:35and the others around 10 heads of state in the German Chancellery, I am optimistic that
02:42we now have a common position that is durable and that Putin thinks about.
02:50But probably if he will not agree on the Western world with increasing military support for Ukraine,
02:57which makes it more difficult for Putin to reach its military goals.
03:01And therefore, he should now take what is on the table.
03:04It's more than he should get.
03:07But to have peace for the people in Ukraine, I think we can accept such a result.
03:14We've seen a statement put out by European leaders with a list of security guarantees that Europeans
03:20and the US are willing to offer Ukraine.
03:23That includes a European-led multinational force, which would include troops being on the ground
03:29in Ukraine after a peace is achieved.
03:33Do you really see European troops going to Ukraine?
03:38What we need is first a ceasefire, then we need an agreement on the border question, where
03:43Ukraine itself has to take the final decisions on that.
03:48And then we have the security measures around.
03:52And I think Germany will not stand away, not go away, if our support is needed.
04:00For us Europeans, it's important that the US are also in on that concept.
04:04We need the US, especially also concerning intelligence, which the US has capabilities and intelligence
04:13we don't have in Europe.
04:15Therefore it's necessary to have American support for that, so to say, peace troop.
04:20But at the end, 800,000 Ukrainian soldiers are the best guarantee for freedom and independence
04:28of Ukraine.
04:30And 800,000 is more than most of the NATO in Europe has.
04:36We haven't yet heard a resounding yes coming from Germany in terms of taking part in this
04:42multinational force and for German troops to actually be on the ground in Ukraine to guarantee
04:49peace and security.
04:51Do you see that happening any time soon?
04:55I think that the CDU, CSU group in the Deutsche Bundestag and also the Bundestag as a whole,
05:00tomorrow when the Chancellor gives his government statement on the European Union Summit, upcoming
05:07European Union Summit, there will be a broad support for that plan.
05:11And part of that plan is this question of security guarantees for Ukraine.
05:16And Germany will not stand against that.
05:21But on the other hand, if there is no peace, we also will have no measures to secure the peace.
05:28And therefore the first step is now to convince Russia and the Russian president to support.
05:35We've also seen in the statement by European leaders that they have pointed down a legally
05:44binding commitment to restore peace and security if Ukraine were to be attacked again after
05:51a peace agreement.
05:53Do you see this legally binding element coming to fruition, especially in a country like the
06:00United States?
06:02I think what is on the table now is something close to Article 5 obligations in NATO.
06:10But we have to state if Russia will not keep peace in Ukraine and will only formally accept
06:20the plan and not in reality, the war will go on.
06:25And therefore we then will support Ukraine as strong as it needed.
06:30And I hope that the European Union finds a decision on Thursday to mobilize the frozen
06:37assets of Russia to make sure that Ukraine has enough money to finance its military forces in
06:4626 and also in 27.
06:48And this signal from Brussels is also very necessary now because it helps a lot to strengthen the
06:56position of the Western world towards Putin.
07:00Do you think the US and in particular the President Donald Trump will stick to what was agreed here
07:06in Berlin or we've seen it happen before, will he flip flop and change his mind?
07:14We had the speech of Vice President Werns in February in Munich.
07:19We had the national security strategy on the table and we have the 28 bullet point paper
07:28for four weeks ago, which was irritating.
07:31But I have no doubt that we can trust the US President, what he said yesterday to the Heads
07:36of State and the Chancellery via video.
07:40And Vitkov and Kushner, his two ambassadors on that question, they are also strongly committed
07:47to that plan and therefore I'm optimistic that the alliance between US, Ukraine and the European
07:55States is sustainable and also a strong word to Putin.
08:05One big question that remains open, you've mentioned it, on Ukraine is the territorial issue.
08:10You've said this is up to Ukraine to decide.
08:13We've heard that also in these talks there might still be pressure coming from the US for
08:19Ukraine to give up territory that it holds in Donetsk, something that Ukraine absolutely
08:24does not want to do.
08:26Do you think this whole process could come crashing because of this territorial issue not being resolved?
08:33This is one of the most crucial points, not decided in the paper from yesterday evening
08:38because we are convinced that only Ukraine, Ukrainian President and Ukrainian Parliament
08:43can take such a decision.
08:44By the way, also the constitution of Ukraine makes it necessary that Sarada is agreeing on
08:51that.
08:52And it would be a pity if Putin reaches some more territory in Ukraine than he has reached by military
09:01activity.
09:02In 25, Putin only conquered 4500 square kilometers extra compared to 24.
09:12This is only 0.77% of the territory of Ukraine.
09:18Victory looks totally different.
09:20And he lost 250,000 soldiers wounded or dead, and therefore it's also for him a question now
09:31to jump into a solution which is face saving also for him towards his people in Russia and
09:39not to continue the war.
09:42And therefore I see also possibilities for compromises on the Russian side on the territorial question.
09:50And by the way, the question is not to give up territory on a basis of international law.
09:57The question is who controls some parts of the Ukraine in the future.
10:03Is it the Ukrainian government or is it something in between?
10:07And this needs to be negotiated.
10:10So do you think that Russia would be willing to agree to a peace or do you think like other
10:17observers see it that Putin just wants to continue the war and that any effort to achieve
10:23peace are not going to end up anywhere?
10:26I fear that there's a huge risk that Putin will not accept.
10:31But on the other hand, for us in the Western world, it's clear that in case that Putin does
10:38not agree on that plan, we come to a point where we have a more common position on supporting
10:46Ukraine also in the future, hopefully also with US.
10:50And this is a change compared to that what we had some weeks ago.
10:55At one point we've heard Chancellor Friedrich Merz recently say that he believes the era of
11:01Pax Americana is over, that the US guaranteeing security also for its partners in Europe, that
11:08is over and that Europe really now needs to take it all in its own hands.
11:13How do you view this message coming from the Chancellor?
11:16Is it really a moment of reaching awareness for European countries that they have to take care
11:22of things on their own?
11:24We have to be aware that this might be the case.
11:26But looking to the strategy of the US President, especially the nuclear question, the nuclear
11:32umbrella for allies is mentioned there.
11:36Maybe we will have discussions about who pays for it, who is organizing it.
11:40But I didn't see a fundamental shift away from NATO by the US.
11:49And we should not lift the bridge from our side.
11:54And therefore I am convinced it makes sense to try to keep the NATO close together in conventional
12:02but also nuclear deterrence.
12:04Jürgen Hart, thank you very much for speaking to us.
12:08It was a pleasure.
12:21Thank you very much.
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