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00:00Hey guys, it's the Hollywood Life Podcast, and we have so much to talk about today.
00:07I am here with my co-anchor.
00:09I'm just paused.
00:10Okay, I'm back.
00:12Hi guys, I'm so excited to be here.
00:14We have such a great guest for you today, but right before we begin, as always, make
00:18sure you hit the subscribe button and you comment how much you love this episode.
00:24Give us five stars and let us know if you want any guests to join us next time.
00:28That's right, and you are going to find our discussion so interesting today.
00:34We have got a very special guest, political commentator, S.E. Cup.
00:40Welcome, S.E.
00:42Hi guys, thanks for having me.
00:44Hello, thank you.
00:46We're so happy to have you, and it really couldn't be at a more timely time because I've seen
00:52your videos that are on CNN, and you have been talking about Marjorie Taylor Greene,
00:57a lot, and she is very much in the news.
01:00In fact, as we speak, she might be getting voted to be getting thrown off of her House
01:08of Representative committees.
01:10So tell us why you have been so incensed about her.
01:14Well, in a long list of disappointments as a conservative, folks like Donald Trump and Roy
01:23Moore and, you know, Steve King, and I think have really taken the party in an ugly, divisive,
01:31oftentimes racist, and now conspiratorial direction.
01:34And Marjorie Taylor Greene is sort of the last logical conclusion of that, right?
01:38It's someone who literally supports QAnon and, you know, says all these kooky things that
01:45are actually really not just gross, but dangerous.
01:49And so now that that's inside Congress, it makes me very concerned, not just for the fate
01:57of the party, but for our country.
02:01You know, conspiracy theories are not just for the right.
02:03You know, they're, they're, they're all over the place and it's undermining our faith in
02:09all kinds of American institutions.
02:12It's undermining our faith in elections, in the media, in law enforcement, the military,
02:18our intelligence.
02:20And that's, that's really deleterious.
02:23That's really dangerous for the country.
02:24So I think we need to call this stuff out and sort of shame it away if we can, because
02:33I think when we pretend she doesn't matter, she's irrelevant, just kind of ignore her.
02:40Well, you get more, you get more Marjorie Taylor Greene's.
02:43Yeah, we've absolutely seen that ignoring QAnon and its followers can, I mean, look what
02:52it leads to.
02:53It leads to insurrection when people are allowed to keep believing, aren't being called out by
03:01any members of supposedly the party that they belong to.
03:04And in fact, they had a leader, Donald Trump, who was the president and who did not, and
03:11who didn't condemn QAnon.
03:14He seemed, he appeared to be a fan of it.
03:15And he was a fan of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
03:17He said she was a star in the Republican party.
03:20He did.
03:20And I remember being on CNN around that time when he was calling her, you know, the future
03:26of the Republican party.
03:27And I said, I don't doubt that she is.
03:29I mean, she is probably the future of the party, because as you say, when the president
03:35of the United States, right, the loudest voice and the biggest representation of your party
03:41is embracing you, calling QAnon patriots.
03:45Why?
03:46Just because they like him.
03:48Then that sends a message of legitimacy and credibility that you can't, you can't rival
03:56that.
03:57You can't match that by saying, but wait a second, that's crazy.
04:00That doesn't make any sense.
04:01President of the United States just gave you a shout out.
04:04I mean, that's, that's what you're going to hear.
04:06And so, you know, we had someone on our air just recently, maybe yesterday, a woman who
04:11said, who was a QAnon supporter and who left and said, if Donald Trump, who she worshipped,
04:19had said, you know what?
04:21I did some research, QAnon's bunk.
04:23It's not real.
04:24She would have believed that.
04:26Yeah.
04:26So, you know, it's hard to overstate how potent and powerful his voice was in fomenting this
04:35wave of conspiracy theorists and, you know, un-American garbage.
04:42Yeah.
04:43Well, and so for our listeners that might not know this, you are, I don't want to mislabel
04:50you, I guess, but you consider yourself a Republican, but you're not a Republican of
04:55this new party.
04:57Republican.
04:58Yeah, I mean, I do not begrudge you for sort of fumbling over how to say, because I'm fumbling
05:03over how, you know, how to identify.
05:05I'm certainly a conservative.
05:06That's a value set.
05:07That doesn't change with, you know, the parties and stuff.
05:11But a Republican, I don't know anymore.
05:15I don't know this party.
05:16I don't know these Republicans.
05:18This isn't why, you know, what drew me to the party.
05:21I, you know, I came in drawn to limited government, self-reliance, self-empowerment, lower taxes,
05:30small government, you know, that kind of stuff, which, you know, seemed normal and empowering
05:36to me.
05:38And I don't know what the party stands for now.
05:40I think if you were a Martian and you came to earth and someone asked you, okay, what,
05:46you know, what's the Republican party about?
05:48You'd say whatever Trump just said.
05:49Yeah.
05:50Because the Republican party has just mirrored back whatever Trump wanted it to be.
05:55It was for tariffs, which, I mean, we never were before.
05:58It was for kids in cages and separating families at the border.
06:02I thought we were a pro-family party.
06:05It was for raising the debt and deficit.
06:07I thought that was kind of the opposite of what we were all about.
06:10I mean, so I don't, this Republican party, not me.
06:17Maybe a future one, we'll have to see.
06:20Yeah, so what is the future?
06:23What is, where do we go from here?
06:26Because there are people that now call themselves Republicans that don't think in this conservative,
06:33you know, grand old party way.
06:35It is this new conspiratorial way.
06:38And where, where do they go?
06:40Where do we go?
06:42Well, it does seem like that the Republican party that's in power now is the QAnon party or the party of Trump.
06:50Like, however you want to define it, it isn't that old party at all.
06:55It isn't that, because as you said, like conservative values, to me, that means you uphold tradition.
07:00And would uphold, truly uphold the Constitution.
07:05Right.
07:05All of the values that that entails.
07:08And that doesn't mean going to the Capitol and threatening to hang the vice president and shoot the Speaker of the House.
07:15Nor does it, I mean, you can even take a step below that, a few rungs below that, nor is it about going to overturn a Democratic election, which was, you know, what they said the insurrection was about.
07:29That's the antithesis of conservatism.
07:34Attacking the police were supposed to be for law and order.
07:37I mean, none of it made sense.
07:39And cloaking it in patriotism or conservatism is just, it's just a lie.
07:44And I think there are enough good conservatives that see through that, even in Congress.
07:51But there's certainly been a lack of courage to call out people like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
07:56And I don't know if you guys saw, but last night, the Republican House conference held a vote on Liz Cheney, a very conservative congresswoman in Wyoming.
08:05They voted to kick her out of leadership because she voted to impeach Donald Trump.
08:11She called a vote of her conscience.
08:14And she kept her leadership position.
08:17The vote was silent.
08:18And I think that's really important to point out.
08:21When the vote was silent, more Republicans stood up for Liz Cheney.
08:27If the vote had not been silent, I'm not sure it would have gone that way.
08:31And that's really, that's really sad and disappointing.
08:34How are you?
08:35Yeah.
08:36I mean, I was going to ask, but why are they still defending him?
08:44Like what?
08:44Why, why are they still scared of him?
08:47He's not in office anymore.
08:50It's, it's, um, bizarre to me, right?
08:53Because just basic math, this guy lost the presidency in, you know, um, his second time around.
09:02Republicans over the course of his four years lost the House and the Senate.
09:06He didn't deliver on most of the promises that he pledged.
09:12Um, so just in terms of the math, I'm not sure what Republicans thought they got other than tax cuts, which Joe Biden can repeal and conservative judges.
09:25Um, Joe Biden can appoint liberal judges and, and I'm sure will across the country.
09:30Um, so the calculus doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I think he still holds some sway and some influence over a lot of voters.
09:44I mean, that's kind of inarguable.
09:46And so I think there are members of Congress, um, who are worried that pissing him off is going to imperil their next election.
09:56And people are up in less than two years.
09:59And so it's eye on the prize, but all of this short-term thinking for Republicans, right?
10:06Like the short-term thinking in 2015 was get Trump elected, no matter what craziness he says.
10:11Then the short-term thinking was get through the midterms.
10:13Then it was get him reelected.
10:15All the short-term bargaining, like we'll accept this for the next gain.
10:20That is this never-ending, vicious cycle that is just prolonging the inevitable, which is that there will be no voters left for the Republican Party if they keep whittling it down to a group of disaffected Republicans who, you know, let's face it, are probably going to die in 20 to 30 years and kooks, crazies, and racists.
10:45If that's your party, those are the people you are catering to.
10:49Good luck winning a national election ever again.
10:53Yeah.
10:53Why do you feel that the Republican Party was so ripe, though, to be taken over by Trump?
10:59Because he came in and at first there were Republican senators that acted like they were going to give him a hard time.
11:06And they all, either they resigned, didn't run again, or they caved.
11:11Why?
11:12Like, why was he able to do this hostile takeover?
11:16Yeah.
11:17Look, I think books are going to be written about that and Trump's co-opting of the Republican Party for decades.
11:24I'm working on one now because it is so hard.
11:28Bonnie, you know, I'm sure you both know Republicans, right?
11:31And Republicans from, like, you know, the previous era.
11:34When we lost in 2012, you'll remember we did an autopsy of why we lost and who we lost as voters.
11:44And, you know, I was tasked with identifying ways, messaging ways, and policy ways we could reach out to millennials, women, minorities, LGBTQ.
11:54And I saw us making a lot of progress on that.
11:592015 comes along, and it's like we forgot all the lessons I thought we had learned from 2012.
12:06We threw them out the window.
12:07And suddenly the RNC is running up to New York to get Donald Trump to sign a loyalty pledge, as if we should be begging this guy to marry us.
12:18It was just, it blew my mind, and I don't know why and how completely the takeover was so swift and complete.
12:28I'm sort of going back now for this new project I'm working on to, like, forensically piece together, like, solve a crime, you know, how, exactly how this happened to us.
12:43Because, and I feel like it did, it happened to me.
12:46I was not a part of all of that, nor would I have, you know, co-signed.
12:51And it just feels, it's disorienting, you know, when you've been in something for a long time, and you thought you knew it really well.
13:00It's very disorienting.
13:01So I don't, I don't have that answer yet, Bonnie, but I think people are going to be trying really hard to see how that happened for a long time.
13:09It's like, it's like you were in a group, and a big portion of them suddenly became members of a cult.
13:17Yes.
13:18And then.
13:18It's not like that.
13:19That's what happened.
13:20I mean, that's what happened.
13:22And I increasingly feel like it's better to view what's happening now in the Republican Party, especially with Q and Trumpism, less like a set of political beliefs and more like a cult.
13:35Because there are a lot of these beliefs that, you know, sound political, but they're not really.
13:40They're, they're, they're asinine.
13:42They're insane.
13:42And I think if you start looking at the, the movement of, of these voters and the people representing in them as a cult, I think we were actually, we'll get closer to identifying solutions and how to, how to solve for this.
14:01You need to interview some cult deprogrammers.
14:05I mean, I don't know if you're joking or serious, but I am serious about that.
14:09Like, I think, I think that really is the way.
14:12And we've had some on, on CNN because people talk about Q and on as if it's a cult and getting out of Q and on as if they were leaving a cult.
14:22And I just think there's so much attached to Trump and what we saw on January 6th, these people running to the Capitol under his command.
14:31Yeah.
14:31I'm not even sure they knew what they were trying to do.
14:35I think it is very, very cult-like and less about, you know, beliefs and ideology.
14:43Yeah.
14:43I feel like you need to get like Leah Romini in here to talk about like Scientology versus Trumpism, you know?
14:50I mean, I don't know.
14:50Did you guys watch like the, um, the NXIVM docs?
14:56Like we covered it.
14:57Yeah.
14:58Yeah.
14:58I mean, I loved them all.
15:00I could watch, I watched Seduced and I watched, um.
15:03The Sin or whatever it's called.
15:04The one on Showtime.
15:06Right.
15:07Right.
15:07We interviewed a couple of the ex-members too.
15:10Yeah.
15:11Yes.
15:12Um, so good.
15:13I mean, so, so good.
15:14But I watched that feeling like, oh, and then I watched the Heaven's Gate one.
15:19Oh yeah.
15:19Which was really good.
15:20I watched those thinking this is so familiar.
15:24This is so sort of, um, it rhymed, you know, with what I'm seeing in politics right now in,
15:33you know, on the far right.
15:34Yeah.
15:35Well, and you know, something that kind of just came to me.
15:37Vow.
15:37Oh, the vow.
15:39The vow.
15:40The vow.
15:40That's what it is.
15:41I said the sin.
15:42The vow.
15:43Okay.
15:45So, you know, I was thinking about this and it kind of just came to me.
15:48I know you're really good friends with Meghan McCain.
15:50She's one of your besties.
15:51Um, so, you know, I remember seeing when Trump was kicked off Twitter, um, that there was
15:57a big question of censorship though, that, you know, and that is something that conservatives
16:02and the Republican party, the GOP takes very seriously.
16:06What are your thoughts on him not being on the app and just censorship in that way?
16:12I'm very sensitive to censorship as a journalist.
16:15Yeah.
16:15I'm sure you guys are too.
16:20Whoops.
16:21The whole enchilada.
16:22Um, so I take censorship and the idea of censorship and free speech really, really seriously.
16:29And I struggled for a while with whether Trump should be de-platformed and that was partly
16:35because I think knowing as much as we can is better, that sunlight is the best disinfectant,
16:42that sort of thing.
16:43But I did come around to the idea of de-platforming him because I don't think he was using that
16:48platform responsibly, um, one.
16:51And two, I was seeing the corrosive nature of what he was doing on social media.
16:56I was seeing it in everyday life, you know, with some of my friends and family.
17:01And then, you know, what we saw in January 6th as sort of a culmination, I saw him eroding
17:07all of these institutions through a very powerful, potent, um, you know, platform and tool.
17:14So look, he is not censored.
17:16He is free to give an interview to any news outlet anytime he wants.
17:20I would take it.
17:21Wouldn't you?
17:21I mean, you'd, you'd give him a microphone, right?
17:24So he's not, he's not silenced.
17:26He has a huge platform, um, a bigger one than almost anyone on the planet if he wants it.
17:33So I feel like it was the right move, but I don't take that lightly.
17:37You know, I don't, that's not an easy call for me.
17:41Well, there is a line between freedom of speech and hate speech and hate speech isn't allowed.
17:46And essentially he filled us, our ears with hate speech for over five years.
17:52Not just that I normalized it, you know, in a way, you know, he made it credible.
17:58He made it justifiable.
18:00And I think a lot of the folks that rushed to the Capitol in January felt justified in their anger.
18:08And he gave it a nobility that it didn't deserve, but he did that with Twitter.
18:14He did that seasoning over four years and conditioning to where it didn't seem crazy to some people to say the election was stolen.
18:26I'm going to go take it back by, by storming the Capitol.
18:29I mean, that doesn't happen overnight.
18:32You know, that happened because he conditioned the environment for it.
18:36Since you, you brought up Megan, Allie, how do you feel?
18:41And I was, I was shocked and heartbroken myself about this because I felt it was so, I felt it was so wrong about the Arizona Republican Party censuring her mother and her father, her late father.
18:57I mean, her father was a war hero and, and represented the state for decades in Congress and they censured him.
19:07Yeah, it was gross.
19:09Listen, you know, Megan's a very tough girl and, you know, she's used to this.
19:15And sadly her mom is too.
19:17And her mom's very strong as well, but it's really gross.
19:22But again, it's, it's, it's almost not surprising.
19:25You know, Donald Trump made John McCain an enemy.
19:29When he first started running for office, he made fun of him.
19:33He mocked the fact that he was a prisoner of war.
19:35This, this wasn't out of nowhere.
19:38Again, he conditioned the environment, even in Arizona from Washington, D.C.
19:43to sort of turn on this family and these beloved, you know, sons and daughters of Arizona.
19:51Again, it's a potent drug.
19:53Trump is a potent drug.
19:55And I, you know, among the, among many things, it was very, very sad to see.
20:01It is very sad to see.
20:02It's amazing that he could, John McCain represented the Republican Party.
20:07He was the.
20:09Ran for president.
20:10That's what I keep saying to people.
20:12I said, when is it going to go back to the party of John McCain?
20:14And, you know, just to, to hypnotize these people, it's so sickening.
20:21And it makes me so sad for her.
20:23In addition to the pain that they already have to go through to, to losing him.
20:27Believe me, I wanted to go back to the party of John McCain too.
20:31I mean, that's the party I was, I was drawn to.
20:34And I think, you know, whatever side of the aisle you're on, whatever your politics, people
20:40admire John McCain.
20:42And I miss that.
20:43And even if you're a Democrat, even if you're the farthest left Democrat, you should still
20:48want there to be two strong political parties.
20:51Because America doesn't function very well.
20:53When one party has all the chips and the other party is dysfunctional and acting like idiots,
20:59that's when you get a lot of executive orders.
21:02And maybe the guy giving them is your guy.
21:04So that, then it's fine.
21:06But then when it's not, it's not fine.
21:08And that's not how it's supposed to go.
21:10Congress is supposed to write the laws.
21:12The president's supposed to sign them.
21:14And so this lopsided dysfunction is bad for all Americans.
21:18So I want, and I hope my liberal friends want too, the Republican Party restored to some
21:25kind of semblance of normalcy that I remember.
21:30Something I can be proud of and not ashamed of.
21:33And you wanted the Republican Party as well to become more inclusive and to not be anti-LGBTQ.
21:42Yeah.
21:42Because, you know, I think that that would open the door.
21:46The fact that it wasn't that way would open the door to so many people.
21:51And also, how do you feel about the party being not as anti-abortion?
21:57Because, again, that means so many women, you know, can't.
22:02Yeah.
22:02So I came to my support for gay rights early, before a lot of Democrats did, just because
22:11I grew up with it.
22:12I grew up dancing ballet in Boston.
22:14And it was my world.
22:15I mean, these were my friends.
22:17I didn't know any different.
22:19And so when I got older and realized there were people who didn't like my friends, it
22:24was personal for me.
22:25And it never conflicted with my politics because it felt to me like it is conservative to want
22:34the government out of my private life.
22:35And to want the government out of my bedroom.
22:37Like that, that feels conservative.
22:39So I could, and look, if you're pro-family, you like marriage.
22:43You think marriage is stabilizing and good for the economy and good for, well, then you
22:48should want any two people who love each other to get married, right?
22:51So that felt normal to me.
22:53And that's the case I make to other people, that you can be conservative.
22:58You can be in favor of gay marriage.
22:59You can do it from a conservative place.
23:02As for abortion, that's trickier for me because I am pro-life.
23:07I don't think we need to overturn Roe v. Wade.
23:09And I think there should be, abortion should be legal, safe, and rare, which used to be
23:14the Democratic platform as well.
23:16And most Americans are in the middle on that issue.
23:20They support legal abortion, but they want some restrictions.
23:23Way over on the far left, you've got sort of no rules.
23:26And way over on the far right, it's like no abortions for anyone ever.
23:30That's not really representative of where most people are.
23:34So I'd be okay with the party kind of just representing most Americans.
23:41You can have your feelings on abortion, but again, legal, safe, rare, with some, I think,
23:47common sense restrictions.
23:49I think we'd sound a lot less crazy if we talked about it in compassionate terms and terms
23:57that real women can relate to, not in these sort of absolutes that no one can relate to.
24:02Right.
24:03I agree with you.
24:04Not the absolutes, the center.
24:06Yeah.
24:07You're a mom, right?
24:10How old is your son?
24:12He just turned six.
24:14It's why I'm in my closet, because he's virtually schooling from home in a little pod.
24:21So this is like my quiet space.
24:23But yeah, little Jack.
24:26How has it been for you as a mother?
24:29Now, as if he was five when it started, so he would have been in kindergarten, like he
24:34hasn't gotten to experience real school hardly.
24:38Like, how are you managing this?
24:40I keep telling myself that he's just in kindergarten and he's got, you know, 12 years to experience
24:48school.
24:49And to me, I think like the curriculum in kindergarten is less important than the socialization.
24:54And that's what I'm sad that he's missing out on.
24:58Like I said, we have a pod.
24:59So he goes to school at home with another kid.
25:02So he has a play date every day, which is nice.
25:06He's not completely like a shut-in.
25:08But yeah, it makes me sad.
25:11I mean, I, you know, could get emotional about it now, but our kids are resilient, right?
25:18And he's a happy kid.
25:21We're healthy.
25:23And I can't dwell on the things I can't control.
25:26And that's what I've learned through this pandemic is to focus on the things I can change.
25:33And, you know, we do silly stuff now that I don't think I would have done before this,
25:38you know, like ice cream social in the middle of the day, but it's the ice cream antisocial
25:43because there's no one around.
25:45Or, you know, we, we, we try to have as much fun as we can.
25:53And I'm grateful for that sort of awakening that I should be having more fun with him.
25:58And he is six, you know, there's, there will be time for him to get back to regular life.
26:07How have you been, like, how have you been handling any lessons you have to help teach
26:13or what the teacher wants you to do?
26:16Like, I guess as you're right, he's, he's only six.
26:18So it's not like he's in the middle of having to study to, to get into college, you know,
26:24and write essays, which I think would be so hard if.
26:28No, it's mostly like paying attention, paying attention, sitting still is like, you know,
26:32the tough, the toughest part of, of his day.
26:34And I, I'm lucky I have help because I work full time.
26:41I can't, I can't be teacher all day.
26:43Um, but look, it's a lot of, it's a lot of patience and this kid can maneuver around a
26:52computer better than I can today.
26:54I mean, you should see him with his, you know, he's into this and then he's onto this and
26:58mom, make that smaller, mom, click on the link.
27:01I'm like, you use this words like scroll.
27:04I'm like, who are you?
27:07Um, so I, you know, again, I try to focus on the positives, the stuff he's learning right
27:11now that maybe he wouldn't otherwise.
27:14Yeah.
27:14Even that resilience, like you said, I mean, for adults, this has been hard and kids, you
27:21know, they are going to remember this forever.
27:23And so I think that just learning this process, maybe now and young is going to help them, um,
27:30in the long run.
27:31Now, maybe back briefly to your best friend, Megan, have you given her any parenting advice
27:37since she's a new mom?
27:39Yes.
27:40Only solicited.
27:41I, I'm not, I'm not a mom.
27:42That's like, let me tell you everything.
27:44I know that's how you have to do it.
27:46Cause I don't know anything.
27:47Um, all I know is about my kid.
27:49I don't know about your kid.
27:50I don't, you know, I don't know how you should be a mom.
27:53Uh, but no, she's of course, during pregnancy, there were lots of questions.
27:56And then, you know, in the first few months, um, mostly like, does this get easier?
28:02When do you sleep?
28:03Like normal stuff, but she's doing such a great job.
28:06Um, and, uh, you know, that kiddo is so adorable.
28:10And she says that she's just been really, really good, like a really good baby.
28:15And despite all the craziness that goes on around her at work and, and elsewhere and
28:20in the world, um, you know, that kiddo has been great.
28:25And so she's like, oh, it's one thing I don't, you know, the kid's never driving me crazy.
28:29The kid is, the kid is great.
28:30So I'm so thrilled for her.
28:33She's lucky she didn't have a colicky baby.
28:36I mean, no, she, she lucked out.
28:38I did too.
28:39I, you know, my, my kid was a terrific baby and, you know, they say you get the, you know,
28:47the, you, you get the kids you can handle.
28:49Right.
28:49And so obviously I, I couldn't handle much, much more than that.
28:54Um, are you going to be as become like, uh, you're writing this book, which sounds super
29:02interesting.
29:03Like, are you, um, involved with any of the Republican groups that are trying to, I don't
29:11know, bring, bring like coalesce with a new form of the party or kick the Trumpers out?
29:18Like, I don't know, or, or just keep electing Democrats until the Republican party can,
29:24decide to reform itself.
29:27Are you involved with the Lincoln project or the Republicans for accountability, anything
29:31like that?
29:32Not officially as a journalist.
29:33Um, I try to, I try to, you know, I try to keep that separate and other others are in
29:38and out of those spaces.
29:39I try to keep that separate.
29:41Um, but I am certainly supportive.
29:42I'm a fan of, you know, of all of theirs.
29:45And, and I, I do talk to other Republicans in, in Congress, um, uh, you know, who are,
29:53who are trying to steer the party in the right direction.
29:57And, you know, we have powwows and stuff like that.
29:59Uh, so I try to be helpful where I can, but I, I think my, my most important role is as
30:06a journalist and even as an opinion journalist, um, to sort of put my, my voice out there in
30:13the way that I do.
30:14It's just, it's where I'm comfortable.
30:15It's, I think where I'm best, you know, most useful.
30:19I, I, I'd like to see more of your voice.
30:23Like, I wish that your voice, I mean, I know, you know, you've, you're associated with CNN,
30:29um, but your voice on a Fox, like, or on these other, you know, Newsmax, OAN, like that's
30:37where those people are.
30:38They're not hearing voices like yourself.
30:41No, it's such an echo chamber.
30:43And, and, you know, similarly on, on the left, there can be a bubble too, where you're just
30:48not hearing like, you know, average Republicans.
30:51Um, but yeah, I mean, that's a problem with media in general right now.
30:56It's, there's so much of it and yet it's so concentrated, um, and it's so self-selecting,
31:02but I gotta be honest.
31:04I don't think a Fox or a Newsmax would want me, you know, what purpose do I serve over there?
31:10Um, you know, it's, it's not just that, like, I don't really want to be a part of that ecosystem.
31:17I don't think they want me either.
31:19Right.
31:20Well, that's the problem.
31:21Exactly.
31:22True.
31:23Yeah.
31:23That kind of goes into one of my last questions is that, you know, do you think that conversations
31:30between, you know, liberals and conservatives can, you know, positive conversations, moving
31:37conversations, and just like normal discussions exist anymore because of the divisiveness
31:43that Trump has created?
31:44Because even when you see Megan on the view, Megan and Joy, it seems so hostile, even though
31:50Megan is just sharing a viewpoint and, you know, it's just a quick, a quick, everyone's
31:55so quick to attack.
31:58I hope so.
31:59I mean, that's what I try.
32:00That's what I look for.
32:01And, and, you know, whether I'm hosting a show or I'm doing an interview, I want to
32:06have a dialogue and I have people on all the time that I, I disagree with.
32:10I mean, you know, I think I had, you know, probably a hundred elected Democrats on, you
32:16know, the show over time.
32:19I think there's a way to talk about anything civilly and come, come from a place of, of
32:26problem solving.
32:27And that's what I'm interested in.
32:29And when I, when I, you know, sit down with people like Van Jones, right.
32:32One of my super dear friends at CNN from the left.
32:36And we used to do a lot of speeches together, you know, we both come at it from the same
32:41place, problem solving.
32:43If you're interested in solving a problem and I'm interested in solving a problem, it
32:47doesn't really matter what we disagree on.
32:51Let's find the things we agree on.
32:53I don't really know that that's a winning project in like cable news anymore.
33:02I don't know that there is a real interest in comedy, you know, with a T, um, anymore.
33:10And I was saying this before the election, Joe Biden kept promising to unify the country.
33:16And I thought that was wonderful, but I didn't know if the feeling was mutual.
33:19I didn't know that the country wanted to unify, you know, I think people feel really good
33:25entrenched in their tribes and it's hard to break people out of that.
33:30I think, I think the Trumpers feel happy in their tribe.
33:35I don't, I don't know about the, um, the Democrats.
33:39I mean, I talked to lots, I guess I'm a Democrat, talked to lots of people who would like to see
33:44more unity, like really bothered that it, we're in two different worlds that can't talk and
33:50don't, as you said, in completely different ecosystems, like they recognize that's bad.
33:55Well, I, I, that is great to hear because that's what I want.
33:59And I, I, you know, I want to get back to a place where we can talk about policies, right?
34:03That really impact Americans and not the whack jobs in our party or, you know, the loudest
34:09idiots in the room.
34:11That's not helpful.
34:12That's not helpful to Americans, right?
34:14To, to voters, to people who are really hurting and could, could use good people in government
34:20to help solve some problems.
34:22That's, that's what they're there to do is solve some problems.
34:25And unfortunately, um, breaking stuff has become too politically profitable, you know,
34:32to turn away from.
34:33If you break it, then you can run on fixing it.
34:36If you break it, you can fundraise off it.
34:38If you break it, you can make people afraid of it.
34:41If you fix it, well, then why?
34:44And that's awful and gross and very cynical, but that's kind of where we are.
34:48I just want to ask you, have you met Trump ever?
34:53Yes.
34:54Uh, many times.
34:55Um, I used to, I, so I used to do Fox many years ago.
35:01And, and so I, I did TV with him, I think a couple of times and his, his son, Don Jr.
35:06And then, um, I did a couple, um, events where he spoke and I spoke separately, but we were
35:14at the events together.
35:15I introduced him for an event once.
35:18This is all before he ran.
35:20Right.
35:20And then, um, I lived in a Trump building in the city for a year, not because it was a
35:27Trump building.
35:27It's just where I happened to move.
35:28And he sent me a housewarming present when I moved in, it's a cutting board with my initials,
35:37like branded into it with a note, like, welcome, you know, welcome to the building or whatever.
35:42I was never, um, you know, a supporter, but back when he was just kind of like an eccentric
35:49media mogul, um, before birtherism, cause I was not with him on that at all.
35:56Uh, you know, he was a figure in New York, you know, and that was the extent of our relationship.
36:02And then, and then when he's right, like he didn't seem, I mean, I, as a woman, you
36:10know how you can sort of get a vibe.
36:13Um, this is not a guy I want to get too friendly with.
36:16I got that, but yeah, the heart, not so harmful that I guys and evil, right?
36:26Um, and then I started covering him for the campaign.
36:29I mean, I got, no, he did not give that vibe.
36:35He did give a creepy vibe, um, you know, as kind of a lecherous old guy, but, uh, no, I,
36:43I would, you know, I, I don't think I, when, when he was going to run his camp told me a couple
36:51days before he's running and sent me a copy of his speech and I read it over and it was
36:57very business focused.
36:59Some of the projects he had helped rebuild and turn around.
37:03And I thought, well, this isn't it, this is a platform.
37:05This is interesting.
37:06Will he, you know, will he do anything with this?
37:08Who knows?
37:09But this is interesting.
37:10Of course, cut to a couple of days later, he didn't read any of the speech, none of what
37:15was prepared.
37:15And then I thought, oh God, this is going to be a shit show and I just have to buckle,
37:20buckle in for it.
37:21And it was clear very early on that I, you know, wanted nothing to do with that other
37:27than to criticize it.
37:28Um, but yeah, it's a, it's an, it's weird to have known a person, but like briefly and
37:37vaguely, but known a person and then just watched sort of the dumpster fire that ensued.
37:42Right.
37:44Yeah.
37:44I think that's, um, I mean, I, you met him much more than I did.
37:48I met him a couple of times and yes, agree with you that.
37:52Yeah.
37:53You don't want to be too close, but certainly no, yes, definitely not, but just, I never
38:01got any sense of what he would become, how he would, would become so evil in office.
38:09And so, yeah, you know, and that he could build a cult around him.
38:14It just never occurred to me.
38:15Right.
38:16I mean, you're in publishing.
38:17I'm sure you cross paths, you know, at some point that it didn't, it never occurred to
38:22me.
38:22I thought he's, I didn't even think I thought he was capable of all that, you know, like
38:28no, it would do with, it would take too much organization, right.
38:32To, to do what he did.
38:34And that just never occurred to me.
38:36It's bizarre and terrifying, really.
38:39Well, listen, I, it's been so interesting to talk to you and to hear your, your points,
38:46points of view.
38:47And we would love to talk to you whenever your book is ready.
38:51Cause your book sounds so interesting that you're working on.
38:55Yeah.
38:56Well, thanks for having me.
38:57I really appreciate, appreciated this conversation.
39:00It's nice to have a normal conversation.
39:03Well, we appreciate you coming on.
39:06I'm sorry, Holly.
39:07I just was saying thank you as well.
39:09It really is so nice.
39:10And, and, um, Bonnie and I are both really big fans of yours.
39:13Um, sorry.
39:17It's okay.
39:19Thanks so much.
39:20Work from home problems.
39:22Yeah.
39:22Thanks guys.
39:23I appreciate it.
39:24Thanks for your understanding.
39:26We totally do.
39:29Okay.
39:29Bye.
39:30Bye.
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