00:00They were teenagers. I wanted this to be something that maybe teenagers would be interested in and see. And I thought, why don't we use the device of a graphic novel to kind of say, this is for you. This is not for older people. This is for teenagers who could be, you know, coerced by the police.
00:21So I hope that a lot of young people will see this, understand their rights, and maybe get help so that this does not happen to more people.
00:35I know, as we see, you know, Ta-Nehisi remembers this story from many, many decades ago. But kind of when did this start? When did you learn about this story and start thinking like this might be something you wanted to explore?
00:48So I was working with HBO on Eyes on the Prize, the third installment, and we were finishing up and Sarah Rodriguez called me up. She knew I had done a lot of films about the criminal legal system and about injustice and wrongfully convicted people, or even people who were convicted but treated terribly.
01:09So, you know, I always like to say, it's important that we don't cage and treat anyone inhumanely. It doesn't matter if you've committed a crime. You should not be treated poorly.
01:20So Sarah called me and she said, we have this story. It's based on a New Yorker article about these three teenagers who were wrongfully convicted, spent 36 years in prison before the Conviction Integrity Unit, they were released.
01:41And she said, do you think you would? I was like, Sarah, are you kidding me? You know, but this film was a challenge because they were in prison. There was not a lot of footage. There were not a lot of photos.
01:56And so we really had to think about how we would bring the story to life in a way that really honored and helped people understand what they had gone through. And so that's what we started thinking about.
02:11So then met Ta-Nehisi. And, you know, one other thing I'll tell you, which is, is really important is Ta-Nehisi said from the beginning, and I don't know if you all remember this, he went to Baltimore and sat down with them. And they, you had been out, what, two years maybe about that at that time. And we had a conversation and they said, you know, some things to us about, they said, are you going to tell the truth?
02:41And that's what they, it wasn't a challenge, but it was a request. And I think it was, Ta-Nehisi set the tone for this film by saying, we go meet you all. We explain what we want to do, what we're going to try and do. But we need you to kind of bless the project. We need you to understand who we are as well. And that's how we started.
03:07Yeah. I was going to ask you guys, you know, I'm not sure if you had a bunch of people coming to you wanting to tell this story and like also just how you even got into the mindset of, did you immediately feel like when you got out, like you wanted to put your story out there more and talk about it? Because that's also sort of takes a lot of work when you have a lot of other things on your priority list.
03:26We wanted our story to be told, but not, not right away.
03:30We needed to work on ourselves first. So the first thing was good for us is to get therapy.
03:38Oh, you know, inside you go to prison, you're dealing with a lot. A lot of people's agents to do a lot of interviews and, but we just felt like it wasn't the time.
03:48You know, we always came together and we, we, we, we sat down, we talked, we made decisions together and we all sat down and just said it wasn't the time.
04:00What was it about when Ta-Nehisi came that you, like, did you feel instantly like he was the right person, Don was the right person, it was the right time or?
04:09Yeah, it was, it was, it was at the right time. We talked about it and, um, you know, from the beginning, um, the trauma that we've been through, you know, being affirmated back in society, we was just trying to, um, cope and, and, and, you know, feel the freedom that we had.
04:32Like, um, it was just that, uh, when the opportunity came, when she came, it was the right time, you know? And, um.
04:44Did you, Don, when you were, um, working out, did you come immediately to the, the concept when you used the sketches as well, since you didn't have the footage?
04:52Did that kind of come to you right away? Or was that something you had to work on?
04:55No, it was pretty early. Yeah, I, um, this, the graphic novelist artist that we used, um, he had worked on a number of other projects and I, I think he did the, the sketches for this book, Monster, that my friend Tanya Lewis Lee, um, produced.
05:14And I was always, um, kind of obsessed with the, um, so the artists had pictures of each of them from different stages of life.
05:24And then we just, um, we, I talked about who you were as people.
05:31And so I think when you look at the sketches and you see the emotion on the faces of, um, the, the boys that are portrayed in the art, there's something very, um, emotional and it just really draws your attention.
05:48The other thing is they were teenagers. I wanted this to be something that maybe teenagers would be interested in and see.
05:57And I thought, why don't we use the device of a graphic novel to kind of say, this is for you. This is not for older people. This is for teenagers who could be, you know, coerced by the police.
06:10Um, so I hope that a lot of young people will see this, understand their rights and, uh, maybe get help so that, that this does not happen to more people.
06:21When, something I was really struck by in watching, um, all of the interviews and your interactions is how, obviously it's like, this is something that someone could be so angry about for so long and you, you come to it in such a like insightful way.
06:38But is that, I guess my question would be like, how, how do you do that? Is that from the therapy work from coming out? Is that just, you're just enlightened people more than I am? I don't know. It's like, it's, yeah, you're able, and you're able to give people like, even at that, I don't want to spoil, but that hard conversation at the very end, that was like nothing I've ever seen before. But yeah, do you?
06:59I think it's a combination of support, therapy, and God. You know, you have to come to a, a place in your life where you, where we came to that place where you realize, nobody really owe us nothing. Right? HBO gave us a platform. Right?
07:21It gave us a voice. And in our, in our lives, we ain't never had a voice. At the age of 16, we went to prison. We came home at the age of 53.
07:32We ain't never had a voice. We ain't never had a voice. We didn't even know what a voice sounded like, what it looked like. So to be in a position where a major organization, HBO, say, I hear you. I feel you. I'm going to tell you a story.
07:53It, it, it not only gives credence to what we've been through, but it, it bolsters us in confidence in certain areas in our lives that we didn't have as young men or, or kids, even to, to this day, adults.
08:09We still struggle in certain areas of our lives, but because we have each other, we have the confidence of our families and our loved ones, we manage it.
08:19So that, that, coming to that place where, not being mad, if, if any of us is here and tell you that we don't have those moments, we're not telling you the truth.
08:35Right? The truth is, we have those moments, but we talk to each other. Right?
08:40And we, we reaffirm the fact that we love each other, in spite of everything we've been through. We reaffirm that I got your back, you got my back. That's for life.
08:52And that gives us that push to move past the hurt, pain, and anger. So that's what that is.
08:59I know that, is there like, what is the recourse or what is the, there's no punishment that can come to the detectives and the police officers, right? Like that's just something that's an inequity that's baked into the system.
09:12I mean, one of the things you see that is so, it's shocking, and yet it happens all the time, is Detective Kincaid has no remorse.
09:27Yeah, he did not.
09:27You know, in his deposition, he says, it was a perfect investigation. He would not do anything different. Knowing that they are innocent, he still would do what he did.
09:39Indeed.
09:40I don't even know how to process a person who can't take responsibility for trying, not succeeding, but trying intentionally to ruin the lives of three young men who had everything in front of them.
09:54So, you know, I think we all have to live with ourselves and our choices. It's not enough, but, you know, and I'll let you all speak to it.
10:08But I try not to focus on people like Kincaid, because I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by people like these gentlemen, who are so honest, and clear, and loving, and are fighting every day for their humanity, and to be, just to be peaceful. That's all they ever ask. To be peaceful. So.
10:32A lot of times when we, documentaries in this genre, sometimes will come before you've had, and I don't want to call it a happy ending, but before the sort of legal conclusion has happened, right?
10:45We're watching it. People have been wrongfully accused, or people are mistreated in prison, and you're catching the documentary, and then that starts a wave, right, of movement or activism.
10:54And with this, watching it sort of after you've come out and moved through that process, I guess I would ask you, like, what's the sort of ideal, if someone watches this documentary and is really moved, like, what is an ideal thing that they could do?
11:08Or what, yeah, what do you want? What would you like to see come out of it?
11:12I just hope that, um, when they look at it, not to forget it. Like, um, in the process of their lives, like, they see what's going on in the news every day, in their neighborhoods, even with their children.
11:26So, um, look at it, and you say, um, I don't want that to happen to my son or my daughter, because it happens to females, too.
11:41So, um, just giving an insight on what occurs every day, like, with the system, um, court system, the police department, um, it goes beyond.
12:02So, um, when people look at it, I just hope that, um, it gives them insight on, uh, the part about what we went through and that, um, um, the human factor of that it can happen to anybody, right?
12:24And, um, let, not let it happen again, you know, and not forget it.
12:34I think, um, what I would, um, ask anybody that's needed for him to do is to put yourself in that person's shoes, right?
12:47If you're a parent, what would you do for your child? How far would you go, right?
12:54If you're that individual that's going through it, how would you deal with somebody destroying your life?
13:05So, what I would ask the person to do is to process it in a way that it affects you.
13:14So, you would know the next step to help somebody that's in that position, if it come across your desk or across your life?
13:25I mean, personally, for me, I think, uh, that's for me, it should be, first, though, when you look at it and you see what your place was for us,
13:34did it make you want to do something about it?
13:35If it's no more than voting, people in that should be in, uh, and you look at our situation and you look at what our parents were through because they suffered.
13:49If this young man that was murdered, his family suffered, then it should make you want to make changes in your life.
14:01For the people that's in the office that's not doing anything, then I think it should make you want to go out and vote and get them out there.
14:07Yeah.
14:07And put somebody in there that's going to be responsible for your child.
14:11That's right.
14:12They're in that position to protect your child, but if they're not going to do anything, then I think this here should make you say, you know what?
14:19I got to do something before it happens.
14:21I can't wait till it happens.
14:22Then cry a fair.
14:23No, you can't do that.
14:24And this is what's wrong to me personally with the world.
14:29We wait till the child go off the bed, get killed.
14:32Then the mother won the strength.
14:34No, we need to get in those schools.
14:37We need to vote the people in that should be there.
14:39And for the people that's in there that's not doing anything, then we need to vote them out.
14:44And lastly, did you, did y'all watch the documentary all the way through for the first time together?
14:50Or when did you guys sit and watch it or have you?
14:53It was separate.
14:54Separate, you know, and when I first seen it, I cried a little bit.
15:02It was, yeah.
15:07The fact about the witnesses and all that stuff, like, it's just, it just showed a whole lot of stuff like far as on the other side and outside.
15:24So, um, the wisdom from it, people have to see it and not forget it at the same time.
15:35Yeah.
15:35I think y'all, I think y'all, that's a rough question.
15:44In this sense that, um, when you in the position we're in, and that's been your life for almost 37 years, you're trying to move past it.
15:58Yeah.
15:59Right?
15:59Right?
16:00And to have visual reminder, right, that none of my care about you.
16:10People didn't care about you.
16:14They didn't care about my mama.
16:16Right?
16:17They didn't care about Alfred's mother or Asim's father.
16:19They didn't care about us.
16:21And to have a visual reminder of it, even though you say you get past it, you can never get past it because it's a visual reminder of all the pain, suffering.
16:35The people that you never got a chance to tell you love, never got a chance to hug them.
16:41They never got the chance to see Alfred as a father, as a good man, Ransom as a husband, as a good man, me as a husband, as a good man.
16:50They never got a chance to see that.
16:51That's a cost of reminder of that.
16:53Right?
16:55So to have that, even though it's for the betterment of, I think, of everybody, it's just hard sometimes.
17:07It's just hard sometimes.
17:09Yeah.
17:09Absolutely.
17:10For me, it was a lot more hard because I lost my father.
17:14I lost my sister.
17:16I lost my brother.
17:19And all that was a reminder.
17:20What they have taken, they took from me as a child, 16 years old.
17:28When you take a child from their family at 16 and you bring them back at 53, there's no connection.
17:39None.
17:41They like strangers.
17:42Even though we're blood, we're blood and protected, we're family.
17:47But when I see my sisters and my brothers and them, they are like strangers, you know?
17:52I have no connection.
17:53And that's painful.
17:57Because I want that connection.
17:59But it's just not there.
18:00So me watching the documentary, well, it was just like, it was just so painful for me because it was a reminder of everything that they had taken from me.
18:10And nobody really paid, nobody paid the price.
18:14He's still at home.
18:16He still have his pension.
18:19He still live his life.
18:20And he still believe what he done was right.
18:22Well, yeah, we sat here and we the ones that went through it all.
18:29Well, I really appreciate you guys coming in today and also just participating in the documentary and telling your story.
18:34So thank you so much.
18:36Thanks for hoping to get it out there.
18:37Oh, my God.
18:37My pleasure.
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