- 2 hours ago
India's air pollution has escalated into a year-round national emergency, extending far beyond a winter-specific issue in the Delhi NCR. A recent analysis reveals that 60% of India's districts now breach national air quality standards, with cities like Mumbai and Varanasi experiencing severe smog. This public health crisis is a major mortality risk, comparable to high blood pressure, and is linked to a rise in asthma, COPD, and other respiratory illnesses. Despite existing laws, a lack of political will and execution has hindered effective action. Experts and political figures are calling for government accountability and a coordinated five-year national action plan to move from short-term measures to sustainable solutions. The debate highlights the need to make clean air a political priority, address challenges like the transition to electric vehicles, and recognize the disproportionate impact of toxic air on the nation's most vulnerable populations, securing the fundamental right to breathe clean air.
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00:00Over 2 million deaths due to air pollution every year.
00:21Not limited to winter, now a 10-month crisis.
00:3060% of India's 749 districts fail air standards.
00:47Not just Delhi, now a national crisis.
00:51Who will clean up the air we breathe?
01:00Air Emergency Roundtable
01:10Hello and welcome to this week's Roundtable.
01:23India is facing an emergency, an air emergency, A-I-R.
01:29Every year, the onset of the winter months sees a spike in the air quality index and it's getting worse by the year.
01:38Not just the national capital region in and around Delhi, but every Indian city seems to be breathing worsening air quality.
01:46Mumbai, the commercial capital of the country, also bathed in smog.
01:52Why and what can be done to ensure your and my right to breathe, the right to breathe of every Indian citizen, breathe clean air.
02:03That's what we will discuss on this special roundtable.
02:07But first, I want to go to all my guests one by one.
02:11And I have two very special guests who are joining me at the very outset on this air emergency debate.
02:17My first guest is Diyah Mirza, actor, but also the environment goodwill ambassador for the United Nations, who also works with the UN on sustainable development goals.
02:29Thanks very much, Diyah, for joining us.
02:31I'm calling it the air emergency debate because the truth is we have an air emergency.
02:36Just look at the air quality index in the national capital in Mumbai, across the country.
02:41Some of the worst, most polluted cities are in India.
02:44We are breathing toxic air.
02:46What's your first thought when you hear of the depressing numbers that are coming out about just how polluted our cities are?
02:56Rajdeep, as a mother, it's a reality that I'm confronted by every day.
03:02And it's something that is not new because it's something that we've been acutely aware of for over a decade now.
03:08And Anumita Roy Chaudhary, who was on this conversation, will agree with me when I say that when we first started talking about the importance to, you know, monitor the air quality levels in many cities.
03:22We were dealing with cities unwilling to install air monitoring systems because they didn't want it to affect tourism and industry.
03:32And so we've come some way since then.
03:35At least now we have the systems to monitor the air, which is why there is better public awareness and knowledge about it.
03:41Of course, the stark reality is that you can see how polluted the air is.
03:46While I was driving out last night, this skyscape that Mumbai looks to with such pride and that ceiling that Mumbai looks to with such pride was invisible behind the blanket of smog.
03:57You couldn't see that there was a city beyond that space, which is horrifying.
04:04But that is not to acknowledge the fact that, one, Mumbai and many other cities in the country deal with poor AQI levels year round, other than the monsoon months.
04:20So it's the monsoon months where the skies turn blue and everybody, especially parents, heave a sigh of relief because I know we know our children are breathing cleaner air.
04:30But for a large part of the year, unlike the northern parts of the country, we have AQI levels which are ten times the permissible limit.
04:45The fact is that, Rajdeep, 80% of the world's most polluted cities are in India.
04:51It is, as you have rightfully called this conversation, an emergency.
04:56The good news, though, is that finally, I think there is more public understanding of the issue.
05:05There are more people willing to participate in solutions.
05:08You see young people coming up with extraordinary innovations every day trying to filter, you know, the pollution out, whether it's from vehicles or factories or other emitters.
05:20But we need much more to galvanize support to ensure that industries are held more accountable.
05:32So a big part of Mumbai's pollution right now is construction dust and has been for the last few years.
05:40Because if I just look at only my ward, Rajdeep, which is H ward, we have over 2,500 buildings under construction.
05:48And these are not new constructions. So old buildings are being broken, demolished, and new buildings are coming up in its place.
05:55And every time, one of us, as citizens, goes past one of these buildings, flouting the norms, which is to ensure that the dust is controlled,
06:05there are proper green fencing done, there's, you know, sprinklers being used to contain the dust levels, and we ignore it.
06:11You know, the fact is two points come from what you've said. One, you're saying there is greater public awareness.
06:18But I must be honest, I don't see enough people like you coming out and making this a cause that can become a national campaign.
06:26Everyone complains that the air is polluted. But why don't I see a complete movement for this?
06:31We've seen it in Western countries, green parties emerging, making environment the centerpiece of their politics.
06:38Here people complain, but not enough are willing to walk the talk when it comes to making this a wide movement and holding governments accountable.
06:46I couldn't agree more with you. I couldn't agree more with the fact that many, many, many more of us need to become aware of how integral environmental health is to human health,
07:00how this is a matter of human rights, and how this is a matter of social justice, and how just as parents, or as children of elderly parents,
07:09we can't hope for our children, the health of our elderly at home to be stable or good or for their, we can't hope for their peace or their prosperity if you don't have them growing up in a healthy environment.
07:25And it shouldn't be a central issue. It's most unfortunate that it's not.
07:30But I think what happens for the most part is that those who are informed and aware are doing what they can.
07:38Most people aren't as aware as they need to be. And even if they are, perhaps they don't have the time and the bandwidth and the will to pursue.
07:49Which brings me to the other point. As you're right, there's only so much that citizens can do.
07:54The real focus has to be what are we going to get our governments to do, whether at the center or in the state. Construction work you mentioned.
08:02A lot of illegal work carries on and the dust spreads right around the year.
08:06Factories that are emitting noxious fumes and are clearly the factories that need to move out of the cities.
08:16It's the government which is supposed to act. You said the government support air monitors at last.
08:22But that's an incremental change. Why don't I see governments doing enough to make air pollution a central issue?
08:29Why do you think, surely the buck must stop with these governments?
08:34Clean air is a fundamental right to life. It's the right to breathe.
08:40And how can that be something that we can escape as a guarantee? Our constitution guarantees us this, right?
08:49It's not even… It's baffling, Rajdeep, that environmental protection and health remains a complete, you know, underserved priority.
09:03It doesn't even seem like it's a priority for any government.
09:08Okay, you know, because many believe, you know, Diyam Mirza, that there are no votes to be garnered through clean air.
09:14Let me be honest. Politicians want votes. So, they will play caste cards, they will play community cards, but they won't play the air card.
09:22So, at the end of the day, like with the green parties in the West, we need to find ways in making air quality a central political issue, a fundamental right to breathe.
09:34If there was one advice, therefore, that you would give as a UN ambassador to government and citizens on air quality, what would it be?
09:41What's that one quality? What do we all need to do?
09:46It would be to prioritize the environmental health over everything else, because if we don't have access to…
09:54What will you do with gadi and kapda and makara?
10:00So, the entire approach and understanding of progress needs to be re-evaluated.
10:11And what would you tell your fellow celebrities? Why can't I see them campaigning across the country, saying, we want our right to breathe.
10:19All of you stand in front of India Gate, maybe things will change.
10:25I agree with you. I mean, my hope has always been that more of us would come forward to participate in what truly matters.
10:32But I have to admit, Rajdeep, that I've been, as somebody who's been consistently at it for over two decades, it can be deeply…
10:43I mean, it can be disorienting, to say the least. And it's not easy.
10:49And it requires a lot of will and gumption to be able to keep asking the same questions.
10:55As you know, the climate is not one that is permissive of demanding any form of accountability.
11:03And I know most people are afraid to ask tough questions.
11:07But I think as, you know, citizens of our country, especially as parents, and so many of my colleagues now are young parents who have just had children who are so young and are going to school.
11:18And I'm sure many of them are grappling with the harsh reality of breathing polluted air.
11:23I have a son who's developed as the mom. My mother has COPD.
11:27These are realities that practically every home is dealing with.
11:30So, yes, we all need to do much more.
11:33And yes, we all need to mobilize efforts to improve accountability, not just from governments, but even of ourselves.
11:42Can we manage our waste better? Can we drive electric?
11:46Can we make sure that we are, you know, filing complaints when we see building construction flouting norms and rules?
11:58There are so many things that citizens that we can participate in improving, along with using our voices to demand change.
12:05I'm going to leave it there, Diyamirza. Good to have a celebrity who's walking the talk when it comes to the environment.
12:12Thanks very much for joining me. My next guest is Dr. Kiran Bedi, the former Lieutenant Governor of Puducherry and a proud Delhi citizen who also speaks out on these issues.
12:26Appreciate your joining us, Dr. Bedi.
12:28You've now said on Twitter that you've written to the Prime Minister or at least petitioned him through Twitter,
12:33calling on Mr. Modi to set up a coordination committee, a group of ministers, chief ministers of affected states,
12:40especially in the national capital region. But isn't it all too little too late?
12:45Air pollution, ma'am, has been around for years now. The truth is the government has just not woken up to the challenge.
12:52Yes, we've had a serious decline last few years. Unfortunately, we messed up the last few years.
13:01That's a fact. We messed up the last few years. And today we are bearing the brunt. The point is, why should we not start the recovery even now?
13:10And clean up the mess. The mess of the last decade. It's been decades. Because every department is involved.
13:17There's a transport department. There's a municipality involved. There's agriculture involved. There's industry involved.
13:24Tell me which department is not involved. Even enforcement. The point is, if we have messed up the last one decade, which we did.
13:33We did. We went from bad to worse. But can we continue with the decline? And that's why I requested that now that we are in command and control,
13:42and the mess is behind. Why don't we clean up the mess and start working on it? And there are low-hanging flutes and there are higher ones.
13:51We can start with the doables in every ministry. Agriculture, industry, sanitation, municipality, construction.
14:00So why should we wait? But the fact that we are all bearing the brunt of misgovernance. I tell you, misgovernance of the last decade now.
14:10You know, but the last decade, ma'am, has seen Prime Minister Modi firmly at the centre.
14:14Surely, the centre should be the one calling all these meetings on the environment, on pollution.
14:19This coordination cannot just be done when there is an air emergency in November. It should be done right around the year.
14:26Clearly, air pollution, frankly, was not treated seriously by governments either at the centre or in several states as a priority issue.
14:33That's the harsh reality. Now, I think the problem was total lack of, there was distrust, total distrust. There was a breakdown of relationships.
14:46It was a breakdown of governance. No, that's the Modi and AP man.
14:51Why not? But I think there was a total lack of trust and a breakdown. But there's a breakdown now. Now we can work together. Why don't we work it?
15:00I am witness to the breakdown. It was terrible mistrust. But now there's no reason not to step in.
15:06That's my problem is, step in, because all these ministries, that's why I said group of ministries, because it involves enforcement. And enforcement, that's why I requested even the MHA, the Ministry of Home Affairs, to be part of it.
15:19So, therefore, now there's no excuse. But I'm telling you, we are bearing the brunt of misgovernance of last one decade.
15:28You know, you're referring to NCR, the battle, the mistrust between the AAP government that was there and the centre.
15:34But the truth of the matter is, it's not just NCR, ma'am, anymore. You are at the moment in Mumbai. Look at the pollution levels there. They've spiked.
15:41This is an all-India problem. Some of the worst, most polluted cities today are in India, across India. I come back to it.
15:49The fact is, it hasn't been taken seriously. And it reveals a lack of focus on a critical issue, our right to breathe clean air.
15:56Do you agree that this cannot be just confined to NCR, but it is a pan-India problem now?
16:02That's another reason. That's another reason why I'm asking for leadership control.
16:08That's another reason I'm asking, because this is a problem which is now national.
16:13And it's growing nationally. It's getting exposed now. And therefore, I would say that is the reason.
16:19While it's beyond control, it's like drowning us in. We're getting drowned in it.
16:24But so is Bombay reporting, and so are others. So I think that's the point I'm saying, that that's the reason.
16:31It's now for government of India to step in. The QIM Commission will not do.
16:36The QIM Commission is under a retired bureaucrat, despite his efforts, whatever his efforts, due respect to him.
16:43I think this commission needs to be headed by an honorable cabinet minister who answers the parliament and who is accountable and who gets back to the cabinet.
16:55Because it involves five states, five chief ministers, five chief secretaries, so many districts.
17:02So this is not the job of one retired civil servant. Now it's the job of a strong cabinet minister of environment,
17:10who reports, and maybe even a group of ministers have been saying, because there's no more one minister problem.
17:15And it's truly a national problem, as you rightly said. Bombay was also ruling.
17:20So before Bombay also, Mumbai also gets worse, goes the Delhi way, we should save it.
17:25Therefore, it needs a national understanding, national consensus, national action, national plan, national strategy.
17:33No, no, man. Give me one doable. You've said there are doables.
17:37Give me a low hanging fruit doable that tomorrow morning we can do to help improve the air quality.
17:45Give me one doable.
17:50Sanitation. Clean up. Clean up the roads and by not dusting them.
17:55Clean up the roads, but not dusting them.
17:57But in such a manner that we clear the dust off.
18:01Because the primary reason for pollution is road dust.
18:05Kiran Bedi, thank you very much for joining me here on our air emergency debate.
18:11I want to widen this debate and put some big questions now and get in more guests who've done a lot of work on the ground.
18:17What is the real reason for the worsening air quality across India?
18:22What impact is this worsening air pollution having on citizens' lives, especially the health factor?
18:28What is the solution to India's air emergency?
18:31Can centre and state governments escape responsibility and can they work together for once, for God's sake?
18:36And will air pollution ever become a major political issue in India?
18:41Joining me now is Vimlendu Jai. He's been working on the environment for years.
18:45Anumita Roy Choudhury, executive director of the Centre for Science and Environment joins me.
18:50Pawan Mulukkutla is executive program director, integrated transport, clean air and hydrogen, WRI India.
19:00Dr. Vivek Nangya is VC and head pulmonology at Max Healthcare, one of the leading pulmonologists in the country.
19:07So I appreciate all of you joining us.
19:09Let's turn question by question and I want to ask you all this.
19:13Why are our cities, Vimlendu Jai, so polluted?
19:17When I look at the numbers and I'm going to put all those numbers, the worst polluted cities, some of them are in India.
19:23Noida, Greater Noida, Delhi, Manesar, Ghaziabad.
19:26But we are seeing this now increasing pollution levels across the country. Why?
19:30So Radheep, today I'm actually in Varanasi and the government monitors are showing me 197.
19:39And the private monitors are showing me 356.
19:43And, you know, in one hour it actually turned to 376.
19:47The entire area or entire country, by the way, 90% of India's air is poor, very poor.
19:54And NCR, of course, gets into severe and severe plus category, you know, in these three, four months.
20:01One of the reasons why we are one of the most polluted countries of the world or most polluted cities of the world actually are the list that you actually make of 100 most polluted cities of the world.
20:12We are, you know, almost like 75% of those cities belong to our country.
20:18Why? Why?
20:19Why do we not?
20:20Is because we do not prioritize.
20:21We actually prioritize our development so much.
20:25We haven't really looked at urban environment, or for that matter, rural environment that's not even measurement.
20:30We don't even measure what rural India's AQI index is.
20:34index is. And therefore, from industrialization to urbanization to really looking at our transport
20:42regime, we haven't prioritized public health as number one issue. We've only selectively looked
20:49at development parameters and GDP parameters as measuring the progress of a country. And we don't
20:56even relate to the fact that imagine if there's a sick country and there's a rich country, these
21:02two can't go hand in hand. You can't have a rich nation, second most rich nation of the world or
21:08third top or whatever, 5 trillion or 10 trillion. And then if every second child actually has a
21:13stunted lung growth, what kind of a nation are we actually building? You're saying lack of political
21:20will, we've never prioritized it. I'll come to the impact on health in a moment. But Anumita,
21:25the first big question I pose, why? Is it, do we lay the blame solely on governments
21:31and say that they've been unaccountable, they've not prioritized it, there's no political will out
21:36there? Is that the sole reason in your view why this problem gets worse by the year?
21:42It's very important to understand that why. And it's very clear that the whole development
21:47trajectory right now and the urban growth that is happening, one clearly because of the energy mix
21:54that is in our industry, in households and in the transport sector. So we are urbanizing,
22:00we are motorizing, we are industrializing, when the quality of the fuel that we are using,
22:05the technology level of emission controls that we are applying are very, we are behind, we are lagging
22:12behind. The technology ladder, we are really far behind. And we are not quickly catching up with the
22:18best that is clean and going to give us the zero emission transition. That's one. Second, and in this,
22:25I would really like to say that why the industrial energy and the transport energy certainly requires
22:32very quick transition. But the biggest challenge in India today is the household energy, where you
22:37still have large number of poor households with no access to clean fuel, still burning solid fuels for
22:44cooking, for heating. And that's huge amount of pollution, which is an equity issue that's fouling up
22:50their health and also our environment. The second reason is the lack of circularity when we are growing
22:56as consumers in cities, we are generating huge amount of waste today, but with no infrastructure to recover
23:04that waste, to segregate waste and then recover resource out of that waste. So the waste that is dumped, we burn that
23:12all the time. And the third is the whole mobility crisis. So we are urbanizing, growing, and we are,
23:19and therefore the need to travel is growing, but then there is no sustainable options for us. So the basically
23:27the government is telling us that you self organize your own mobility, you buy your car, you buy your
23:33two wheeler, and I'm not going to invest in the public transport that you require. And then the fourth is the
23:40construction boom, right? The what Adia was saying about in Mumbai, that everywhere, the whole
23:46construction boom that has taken off, making huge demand on material and mining. So just understand
23:53the complexity. It is just the development trajectory. And therefore, the government who had to set the
23:59terms of that growth with the clean matrix, that happened.
24:04Okay, so it seems at the end of the day, it's coming to the door of the government.
24:10Pavan Mulukutla, do you agree with that? Is that, is it solely to be left at the door of
24:17the government? Is it that there hasn't been enough awareness all these years? Suddenly now,
24:22at least there is a conversation about it, which was not there for several years, to be late,
24:27purely at the door of the environment ministry for their inability to frame, let's say, a
24:34comprehensive policy for mobility, for example, work with transport across the country.
24:42Is that the problem? Or is it that just there isn't enough awareness?
24:46I think Rajdeep, it's both right. We solely can't say that it's only government, because I totally agree,
24:53we need very strong regulations, we need very strong norms, and we have very poor execution
25:00strategy in place. But I think making people part of this, you know, other day, I was taking a taxi
25:06in Delhi, and, you know, I was just chatting with this driver and he said, Sir, you know,
25:11Sardi ka mausam type hai hai hai pa toh mountain jaise lag ra hai itani achhi mausam hai. Even the awareness
25:17there is so lacking that, you know, we really need to make this people as part of this campaign,
25:23this moment, because we are talking about growth, but how do we achieve the growth as a green growth?
25:28You know, totally echoing what Anumita was saying, right? We need to look sector by sector. We are aware
25:34that what's happening in emission by construction, in transport, in industry, in household, but where is
25:40the action? And the action is the contribution of... Now, who takes the action? You know, the courts,
25:43for example, we've seen the courts, for example, not being, many believe, take one step forward and
25:49then take one step back. We've had it with green crackers this year. Now, when I spoke to the former
25:55Chief Justice of India, he said, look, that's the... We can pass an order. Execution has to be with
26:02governments. We need the law enforcement agencies to ensure that our orders are complied with.
26:08Look at coastal regulations. You come to Goa now, coastal regulations have been violated
26:12in several parts of this country. So, is it about the failure to execute the orders that may be set
26:19in place, that on paper everything is in place, but the execution is missing?
26:26No, absolutely, Rajiv. I think we need very strong execution strategy. We need coordinated action
26:32between different departments. I think there has to be incentive and penalties for department
26:37officers because this cannot be just left. We are talking a situation of emergency and we have to
26:43work at a war footing level. This can't be that simply said that, okay, let's do, let it happen
26:48and we'll take action. I think we need accountability, but we also need to create buy-in with citizens,
26:53because if you don't make citizens and people part of this movement, I think we are going to lose this
26:59effort because you talk about efficiency standards. Then there is a resistance saying that, okay,
27:04we still want to use vehicles with better fuel efficiency. So, we really need to ensure that
27:10we create campaigns around people. We really ensure that there's strong regulations, but the
27:16enforcement has to be in this. I'm going to come to solutions in a moment. I'm going to also go to Dr.
27:21Nangia in a moment because I want him to, you know, we almost frighten our audiences into believing
27:26what impact does foul air have on our lives. But Vimlendu, you raised your hand very quickly
27:31on this why factor. Let's settle it once and for all. We'll come to solutions later.
27:37We've been talking about with regard to, you know, citizenry and others. We need to understand one
27:42thing that we can't have private solution to public problems. At the end of the day, when we know that
27:49almost 50% or 40 to 50% of ambient air quality or ambient air pollution of Delhi is because of
27:57the mobility sector, which CSE's report itself said, I think perhaps last year or something,
28:03then you and I can't buy a DTC bus. If, you know, 15, you know, power plants in 300 square
28:10kilometer radius don't follow the sulfur dioxide emission guidelines, then you and I can't do it.
28:16So we need to understand one thing that rather than putting it on citizenry and citizenship,
28:21what we need to ask those tough questions of people who we elect to be our custodian,
28:27custodian of our air. So why is our air bad rather than looking at many other factors and to look at
28:34the custodians of our air are irresponsible politicians who don't give any damn about,
28:41about our health and linking environment, not just as a romance and a nuxal issue, rather a public
28:49health issue. Because imagine, and I'm sure Dr. Saab will talk about it. So we need to, that's where I,
28:55I don't think we should search. Okay, I take your point. I take your point. Let's, you know,
28:59there is only so much that citizens can do. Ultimately, the buck must stop with those whom we elect.
29:04Do they really care about the lives of citizens? Which brings me to my next big question. What
29:09impact does it actually have on the lives of citizens? I'm putting certain facts out,
29:14air pollution's impact on health. Dr. Vivek Nangya, head pulmonology,
29:19Max Health Care. Can you tell us how serious is the impact of this across this country? If we breathe
29:26foul air, what does it do to our lifespan, to our health? So Rakti, we've known about the air
29:33pollution and its impact on our health for many, many decades now. You know, it was way back in 1950s
29:38when the most infamous London smog happened, where in just four days time, there were about 12,000
29:43deaths and a lack of people falling sick because of the poor air quality around them. Now, as we have
29:48transitioned over the years, you know, industrial revolution then, and now in India, it is still
29:53continuing, I guess, as far as urbanization is concerned. In 2015, globally, there were about
29:589 million deaths, that is one in six deaths were accountable only because of the poor air
30:04quality, because of the air pollution. This was three times… Repeat those figures for us,
30:10doctor. Repeat those figures. So in 2015, globally, there were 9 million deaths,
30:15that is one in six deaths, which was attributed to the poor air quality. And this figure is actually
30:21three times higher than the total number of deaths caused by AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis all put
30:27together. So that means we have a national program for TB, AIDS, as well as for malaria in our country.
30:33But unfortunately, for poor air quality, we have no national program at all. According to the
30:402019 figure, there were 1.6 million deaths in India alone because of air pollution.
30:45And in 2023, they have labelled it as the second highest risk factor to human life for adults after
30:56blood pressure, high blood pressure, and in children after malnutrition. So again, for malnutrition,
31:02there's a national program. But for air quality, we have no national program yet.
31:06So what does it do? It shortens lives, affects your lung? What does it actually do?
31:11So, you know, overall, if you see, there's been a, I mean, there are studies which have shown that
31:15overall in our country, the life expectancy has gone down by five years because of air pollution.
31:21In Delhi itself, Delhi NCR alone, the life expectancy has been reduced by 11.9 years. And
31:28there's a scientific study, which was published in 2023. So we've known about it for years. So what
31:33happens actually is, you know, especially the PM 2.5 particle in a smaller size particle is the
31:39particle which actually goes directly into your lungs, from the lungs into the bloodstream,
31:43it triggers off an inflammatory cascade, which then travels to the various parts of the body,
31:48which include your heart, your brain, your kidneys, your joints, your pancreas. So now we are getting
31:54to see so many diseases that are getting linked to the air pollution, you know, starting from…
31:59And this is across, and this is children, infants, as well as senior citizens, presumably,
32:03you know, all of them breathing that same air. So they're all equally affected. Am I correct?
32:08So right from the time when the child is still in a womb, you know, in a pregnant lady,
32:13pregnant ladies are more vulnerable to developing problems because of air pollution.
32:16A child who is not born could have poor lung functions. It could be an intrauterine growth
32:21retardation, premature births, premature deaths. Then as the child starts to grow,
32:26they start developing asthma at a very early stage. There's a study which has shown that 40% of the
32:31children from Delhi NCR had poorer lung functions or impaired lung functions as compared to children
32:39in Southern India. Of course, Southern India study was also not very good. I mean,
32:43the functions were poor there as well, but in Delhi, they were certainly worse.
32:47You're almost making all of us say, let's leave the national capital, find other places to live.
32:53I'm glad that you're shocking us because the only way at times that people will realize what…
32:58will force more accountability from their government is when they are alarmed by
33:02some of the numbers that you've thrown. I'm going to come back to you, doctor, in a moment,
33:06but I want to then raise solutions. Let's be very clear. We know the problems. Let's start one
33:11solution after the other. Anumita, you've done a lot of work on mobility. The government now,
33:17the only the other day said they are going to create, incentivize people to move to EV vehicles.
33:24They believe that the EV revolution is here. Do you believe it's here? Because I keep hearing
33:30mixed signals on that. And how do you incentivize people to move to EVs? Or is it just a nice statement to make?
33:39No. So electrification and zero tailpipe emission is certainly the way to go.
33:46But what has happened so far? So as of today, government of India has come up with several
33:53incentive programs, demand incentive programs to give incentive to people to buy EVs. And that has
33:59really been the prime focus of building the market. But even after five years now, if you look at the
34:06overall electrification in the country, that is just about five percent of the new vehicle sales.
34:12And if you are in Delhi, then it's a little better. It is about 13 percent. But now at this crossroad,
34:19when the EV market has begun to take off, still very nascent. But what will really be the game changer is not
34:27so much the reliance on demand incentive, because that is unaffordable for most governments.
34:33They can't keep on giving incentive year after year. But what will really stimulate the market is to have
34:40a very strong regulatory mandate, standards and infrastructure. So in fact, today, what is very
34:48interesting that the personal car market, if you look at it, it has begun to electrify without incentive,
34:56because incentives and rightly so are given for public transport, for buses, for commercial vehicles,
35:03and for the local paratransit. So therefore, what we are really looking for is that how do you speed up?
35:11Now, there are a lot of policies. Because there's still a fraction. Correct me if I'm wrong.
35:14Very small fraction. The EV is a small fraction. Yes. I mean, when I look at the numbers,
35:19vehicular emissions account for 39 percent of what makes Delhi choke according to one figure. Exactly.
35:25And most of the small fraction are EVs. So, I mean, it's going to take years for us to resolve,
35:33you know, to tackle the problem of vehicular emissions. But if you, Rajdeep, if you recall,
35:40our experience with CNG in Delhi, when a very clear mandate and a timeline was given that within
35:48three years, all buses and local commercial vehicles will have to move to CNG. And that happened even
35:54when the country was not producing a single CNG bus then. We need to recreate that kind of a strategy,
36:03that how do you drive and accelerate? And there's several levers. You can have fuel efficiency
36:10standards that will demand electrification. You require infrastructure, public charging infrastructure,
36:16and home charging facilities. And you need to support the whole other transit mechanism that
36:24are in place today. But we need the intent. We need the will to do that.
36:30You know, when you all keep saying will, I just look at some of the numbers. A parliamentary panel
36:36found that 858 crores allocated for pollution control in the 2024-25 budget was unutilized
36:45due to delays in approval from the Union Environment Ministry. Now, when I look at those numbers,
36:50I, that's where the will comes from. Are you going to prioritize this issue? You know, Pavan,
36:56every year in November, I hear farmers of Punjab being blamed. The stubble burning.
37:03Then when I look at their actual numbers, it shows that farm fires account for about 4%
37:08of the, of what makes a city choke. Far higher, vehicular emissions, industrial pollution and dust.
37:15These are the top three. And yet I don't hear enough spoken about them. Do you believe we also need to
37:20recognize there needs to be a realization? Yes, you need to tackle the problem of farm fires, surely
37:26stubble burning at the time. But is that where your attention should be when you look at solving the
37:30problems? Rajdeep, I will say, I think we need to move away from our obsession for short-term measures,
37:38right? And I think what we need right now, specifically in NCR is a five-year action plan with
37:44specific measurable targets sector wise, because I think without a target that what we are going
37:51to reduce, how we are going to reduce is known, but I think what we are going to reduce time bound
37:56is very, very, very critical. So say we are talking about 20 in next five years, what we are going to
38:02do in transport sector, in industry sector, in, you know, in construction, I think we really have the
38:08numbers, what we have the solutions, what we need is the execution plan. And this, we have to hold
38:14different departments accountable across NCR. We need a coordinated action in sync, because we simply
38:21can't say that I'll just do only industrial, I'll not do transport. I think we clearly know what needs
38:27to happen sector by sector. We need the actors to really execute it. You know, can I look at an example,
38:34Vimalindu, which has been so successful, which is Beijing. It's always thrown as an example of what
38:40can be done. China got it right there. It was, Beijing was one of the most polluted cities at the
38:44turn of the century. And eventually today they've leaked the problem, but it is an authoritarian regime
38:50where you can enforce from the top. In India, that might be much more difficult. How do you drive,
38:55how do you drive this five-year campaign, this clean air campaign in a country like India? Where would you start?
39:02So, I'll take from what Pawan and Ranumita actually said. So, you need to understand one thing.
39:08The first time that the Prime Minister's office actually intervened or made a statement with regard
39:13to air pollution was with regard to private vehicles and EVs. We need to understand one thing
39:18very, very clear. Private vehicles of one kind can't be replaced by private vehicles of another kind.
39:24If we really need to solve this problem, we will have to look at public transport. And that's where the
39:30problem is. So, what did China do? What did China do? What did tell our viewers, what did China do?
39:34So, China did exactly that, Randi. China did exactly that in terms of Beijing. First of all,
39:38one of the things that they did, it actually strengthened its public transport infrastructure
39:44in this regime. Second thing that it did, which I mentioned earlier, the coal thermal power plants were
39:49actually moved out of the immediate periphery of Beijing. Third thing that it did, that the emissions,
39:54of course, we are talking about 7% to 8% or perhaps 10% emissions of Delhi NCR that happens from
39:59industries in that sense. They moved those industries outside the immediate periphery or
40:05our so-called air catchment or air shed in that sense. So, we need to look at those harsh decisions,
40:12which of course came at the cost of the economy, were taken. So, public transport, your thermal power
40:18plants, your emission, of course, construction and demolition dust and roadside dust wasn't such
40:24a big thing in this case study of Beijing that we're talking about. And also, one of the things
40:28that Beijing did very, very importantly, and that's the fundamental of air quality governance,
40:34is that it did not really get obsessed with symptoms. It actually went to the source. So,
40:40you know, what we are actually looking at last 10 years of India's governance or 10 or 15 or perhaps
40:4520 years of air quality governance in India, we only look at symptoms and we only look at it from
40:50a period... Give me an example, sorry? Give me an example. When you say we look at symptoms...
40:56So, for example, one of the things that we are actually doing right now, one of the things that
41:00we are actually doing in bad governance of air quality is data manipulation. So, right now,
41:05for example, you are not wearing a mask. Perhaps you are in the studio. I'm not wearing a mask because
41:10I'm in Varanasi, where air quality is 357. In Noida, your air quality is 350. But we have normalized
41:20this 350 air quality, where countries like Thailand actually almost shut down at AQIF 200. So, it's
41:29Changa Sea at 350. It's okay at 450. And, you know, if your private monitor is telling you 1200, it's still fine.
41:37So, that's the problem that we are talking about. So, now, in terms of where are we looking at only
41:43symptoms? Sprinkling water or cloud seeding. Imagine for 16 days, the headline management in
41:49terms of air quality governance was with regard to cloud seeding. Where operation was successful,
41:55the patient died. In the sense, cloud seeding was successful, but rain didn't really happen. And
42:01there's no evidence from anywhere in the world where cloud seeding has actually worked. And imagine
42:061500 square kilometer area that we actually have of Delhi NCR, where one square kilometer costs almost
42:1250 lakhs. How many such cloud seeding events? And the minister, environment minister said he wants it
42:17every two days because Delhi's air quality is very poor, almost 200 days, which is every alternate day.
42:24And when I interviewed him, he was almost celebrating when it went from very poor to poor,
42:30which clearly shows, as you said. Exactly. And then imagine, I was there yesterday at Anand Bihar,
42:37where your air, and which is one of the most polluted areas, where the air quality monitor
42:42is under a tree, 20 meters from there is a voodoo machine, endorsed by the Supreme Court, called
42:48smoke tower, and water sprinkled all through. And then the air quality is okay. And CAQM,
42:55so-called body, and the only quasi-judicial body. See, I was coughing in Gurgaon and coughing in
43:01Varanasi as well. Okay. You know, it's interesting you've chosen to be in Varanasi, which is the
43:06prime minister's constituency, and you're coughing there. But I'll, you know, Dr. Nangya, while we
43:12are getting the environmentalists to give us potential solutions, should there be now a massive
43:18public health awareness campaign as well? Because people need to know also the dangers of what's
43:23happening. Because one of the questions I'm proposing is, what will it take for the environment
43:29to become a political issue? In a country like India, it's only at the end of the day, if there are
43:34votes to be had or lost, on whether you care for the environment or don't care. Do you believe that's
43:39possible? A widespread public health awareness campaign of the, of what poor air can do to our
43:46lives? Yeah, Rajdeep, absolutely. I fully agree with you. You know, now is the time when we have to have
43:50a mass movement that has to actually be in the form of public awareness about how air pollution is
43:56actually harming our lungs. Not only our lungs, but our entire health and reducing our life spines as well.
44:01While we have been aware about it, but I think somewhere in the back of my mind, we tend to
44:06slip it very often. You know, there are people who still come to us in the OPT saying, doc,
44:10why should I quit smoking? As it is, we are breathing such bad air outside. So even if I
44:14continue smoking, how does it harm us? You know, what they don't realize is that with every PM 2.5
44:20particle size in the environment around 25 mics is equivalent to one cigarette in a day. So if the PM 2.5
44:27concentration is around 200 plus, so eight cigarettes, there you go completely. In a day,
44:32you breathe eight cigarettes in a day. So you know, that is the kind of harm that we're doing to
44:37ourselves. Of course, the awareness is rising now, especially because what used to be called a silent
44:43invisible killer is now visible to us also. So we do see people talking about it like earlier times,
44:50earlier years when people come to us during this time of the year with cough, cold,
44:54breathlessness, you would have to tell them that, you know, it's because of the air pollution outside.
44:58Now when they come to us, they come to us saying that ever since the air quality has
45:02dropped, since then the symptoms started or since Diwali, the symptoms have actually worsened.
45:07So the awareness is there, but I think it's a lack of will and a lack of, I think they all need to be
45:12pushed a little to convert it into a mass movement. You know, as I end in the last couple of minutes,
45:17I want 30 seconds to each of you. What would it take, Anumita, to make this a political issue?
45:22I know all of you have done a lot of work on the environment for a long time, long before it
45:26became even fashionable to have shows like this on it, but what will it take? What will it take
45:31according to you to make this a political issue? A quick answer. It's very clear. So while we need
45:37massive campaigns, awareness campaigns regarding the problem, but at the same time, I think we need
45:42even stronger campaign to build public understanding of the solution so that they can really make the
45:48political demand. You know, we talk about air pollution and running away from Delhi,
45:53but when it comes to solutions, we don't create that much demand for me. I want my public transport
45:59infrastructure to work when the government is giving me flyover after flyover. I mean,
46:04you know, so it's very important to deepen the understanding because the solutions are getting
46:09increasingly complex and we don't want middle-class environmentalism only that I can be fine with
46:15my air purifier kind of solution. I need hard decision, difficult, inconvenient decision. For that to build
46:23public support to change the politics around the solutions is going to be very critical.
46:28You know, because that's the issue that I often hear. And Pawan, you can take this and then Vimlendu
46:33very quickly that, you know, this is a middle-class environment. This is an upper middle-class issue,
46:38that the poor have far too many issues of Roti, Kapna, Makan, Rozga to worry about Hava. How do you respond
46:45to those who will tell you this, Pawan, that, you know, that, that it doesn't make that much of a
46:51difference to the average person of this country? Not at all, because they are the ones who are totally
46:56getting impacted, right? They don't have purifiers. They are the ones actually more exposed. So I would
47:02really say that they are actually more vulnerable to actually what is happening, what many of us are
47:06actually leaving them with the kind of quality of air. See, we need to make difficult choices.
47:12And this is where I say that solutions are going to be difficult choices because maybe it will make
47:18certain class uncomfortable. And therefore, I think deepening that awareness with citizens and public
47:24in general would be so critical because you're talking about regulations, about mandates,
47:29about the need to change behavior, and all this would maybe unpopular choices. But that's where I think
47:35creating not just understanding of the problem, but the solution is extremely important because
47:40we need to make people part of the solution process. And that is where then they are able to ask,
47:45you know, sustainable solutions, right, to get clean air. So that's how I think we'll be able to really address this.
47:51That's from clean air to clean water as well. Because remember, many of the poor, in particular,
47:57suffer the worst because of the kind of water that they end up drinking. But, you know,
48:02Vimalindu, you're in the Prime Minister's constituency of Varanasi. I saw you the other day
48:06with Rahul Gandhi in a conversation. You know, this is an issue that should cut across the political divide.
48:14The idea should be that Mr. Gandhi and the Prime Minister should come together along with
48:18chief ministers from different parties and have a national policy for ensuring clean air.
48:24Do you agree with me when I say that, that this issue is not to be seen through a political lens?
48:30Absolutely, Rajdeep. It should be every party's first political, first point in their manifesto.
48:36And as you asked the last question, with regard to it affects the poor the most. You know,
48:42it's not the same air that everyone breathes in Delhi. You need to understand that the air the Prime
48:46Minister breathes, or the air Rahul Gandhi breathes, or what you breathe, and what someone in Sangam Bihar
48:53breathes, or someone who is the subsidy seller on the street is breathing, is completely different. So one is
48:59that there's different air quality for different strata of people, and then there's also different
49:05access to healthcare for different strata of people. Because if Dr. Saab is right, that it affects your
49:12lungs, if you have stunted lung growth, and you know, if you're asthmatic, and you have arthritis,
49:17and this, that, and the other, then it means that it affects someone who's actually standing eight hours
49:22versus the traffic signal much, much more than with multiple air, you know, tenders going around in Delhi
49:29government and central government of air purifiers. And our Chief Justice, I think it's very, very
49:34important for us to also, as I know that you had a fantastic interview with the previous CGI, but
49:40imagine, several hearings, he's realized that it wasn't important. He, you know, someone like a Chief Justice
49:47of India doesn't even know what AQI is, the current Chief Justice of India is saying that let's do work
49:53from home, who, how many people can actually do work from home, in the sense, argue from home,
49:58or do this virtual courtroom, can a rickshawwala, or a DTC driver, or a traffic cop, or, or many people
50:04do work from home. So, you know, when we look for solutions, we again look for solutions from,
50:09from a place of power, and, and a different kind of equity, and different kind of privilege.
50:14I take your point. I hope that there are the Chief, the current Chief Justice and the former
50:19Chief Justice are listening to you. We need real solutions, workable solutions, tangible solutions,
50:25with a clear plan of action. For God's sake, let's create at least a five-year plan so that we don't
50:31have to do these debates every year for an air emergency. We need a clear, transparent plan prepared.
50:38Hopefully, that will be done. To all my panelists for joining me on our air emergency round table,
50:44thank you very much. I hope a day comes when you and I can actually breathe some clean air, and more
50:50than us, every citizen of this country. It must become a fundamental right, the right to breathe clean air.
50:58Let's start a movement right from here. For now, take care, stay well, Jai Hind, Namaskar.
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