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The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the IndiGo crisis that left nearly six lakh passengers stranded after 4,063 flights were cancelled in one week this month.
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00:00Over 1,600 Indigo flights cancelled on December 5th.
00:174,063 flights cancelled in one week.
00:21Nearly 6 lakh passengers hit.
00:34Turmoil ahead of winter rush.
00:42Airline industry in tailspin.
00:51How to fix aviation crisis.
01:00Indigo Meltdown Roundtable.
01:05Hello and welcome then to this week's Roundtable.
01:08It's been a week like no other in India's civil aviation history.
01:13Unprecedented chaos caused by a near meltdown of India's dominant private airline Indigo Airlines.
01:20Amidst the anger of thousands of stranded passengers who suffered from over 1,600 flights being cancelled on a single day.
01:29There are calls for accountability and a complete relook at our civil aviation systems.
01:35Today we bring in experts to tell us the road ahead for India skies.
01:39Lots of questions to answer them on the Roundtable.
01:43Sumit Susiland, Chairman Divine Air.
01:46They work with VVIPs, Chartered Aircraft.
01:50Captain Amit Singh, Founder Safety Matters.
01:53Sanjay Lazar, Aviation Expert, CEO, Availa's Consultants.
01:59Jitendra Bhargava, former Executive Director at Air India.
02:02Sanat Kool, Chairman IFAD, former Joint Secretary, Civil Aviation Ministry.
02:07Sherebhik Panag, he is a financial crimes lawyer.
02:10I appreciate all of you joining me.
02:12I'm going to go question by question and then get all your views on an issue that concerns anyone who's flying in the country at the moment.
02:21The first big question.
02:23Should we hold Indigo alone responsible for the chaos or must the government take responsibility for it?
02:31Is Indigo alone responsible or must the government take responsibility?
02:35Remember, that's precisely the question I posed to the Civil Aviation Minister K. Ramohan Naidu.
02:42Before I come to my guests, let's just listen in to what Ramohan Naidu said when I asked him this direct question.
02:50Who is accountable?
02:51Listen in.
02:52I would like to say that the crisis of Indigo is the gross mismanagement of Indigo.
03:01Their internal crew rostering system, which should work properly,
03:05according to their account,
03:07they had compliance under the new guidelines
03:09or any safety norms under them,
03:12they had compliance under them,
03:14so they should work properly under them.
03:16So they had the internal crew rostering management,
03:19they had a tumbling block,
03:23operations 3rd, 4th, 5th,
03:26we had the cancellations
03:28or delays at airports,
03:30they got to see.
03:32So definitely the first thing that I would want to make it very very clear is that
03:35the mistake lies at Indigo and their management.
03:38How they have done the roster,
03:40how they have managed the operations,
03:42so that is the first mistake that they have done.
03:45So the prime responsibility is being pinned on Indigo.
03:49Now just to explain,
03:50how did Indigo go into this tailspin?
03:53The DGCA notified the flight duty time limitation norms in January 2024,
03:59but the truth is Indigo failed to hire extra pilots that were needed.
04:03The airline's pilot strength in fact declined from 5,463 in March to 5,085 in December.
04:10In four meetings with the Director General for Civil Aviation,
04:13DGCA, Indigo maintained it was ready for these new pilot norms.
04:17Did the DGCA check Indigo's claim?
04:21How did it allow it then to increase winter ops?
04:24Indigo's crew management software wobbled after the new rules came in.
04:281,200 flights were cancelled in November.
04:31Indigo still told DGCA all's under control.
04:34On December 4th, matters reached the ceiling because crew management software went haywire,
04:40625 cancelled.
04:42Crew management software collapsed on the next day.
04:45That was last Friday, 1623 flights cancelled.
04:48That's really the backdrop to all that we've seen.
04:53Remember?
04:55Okay, I just want to also put the pilot to aircraft ratio.
04:58Indigo, 13 to 1.
05:00Air India is 26 to 1.
05:02Akasa Air, 15 to 1 aircraft.
05:05And Spicejet, 7 to 1.
05:07Remember my first question.
05:09Who is to be held accountable?
05:11Is it primarily Indigo?
05:12Jitendra Bhargava, you kick it off because you've been among those who from day one have been saying,
05:18Indigo has much to answer for.
05:20Quick answers from all six of you.
05:22You start first.
05:26Rajdeep, it's entirely Indigo.
05:29Who should be held accountable?
05:31The management, the board of directors.
05:33There are people who are suggesting that DGCA ought to have been monitoring
05:37the status of pilot recruitment induction availability.
05:39To me, that would be interference in the working of an autonomous company,
05:44which is accountable to the board and the management should be totally this thing.
05:49If Indigo, if DGCA was to start interfering and seeking information on these kind of things,
05:54prior to any meltdown, then the Indigo management could have come and the board of directors would have come,
06:00why are you interfering in our affairs?
06:02No, sir, is it interference or regulation?
06:04To me, Indigo management board...
06:05Was it interference or regulation that DGCA is the regulator?
06:09Surely the regulator should have known that an airline is not adhering to the norms all these months?
06:14No.
06:16No, Rajdeep, let me put it this way.
06:19The date of implementation of the second phase of FDTL was 1st of November.
06:23Now, why would DGCA ask whether you're prepared or not?
06:26They have told DGCA in very categorical words that we are ready to comply with the revised regulation.
06:33Now, if DGCA was to say, come and show me the data, how prepared are you?
06:39To me, that is interference.
06:41Even in the case of Air India, DGCA had never done this.
06:43Okay.
06:44So, you're putting the blame primarily on Indigo.
06:47Sanjay Lazar, as someone who I've been seeing on social media raising several questions also about governments handling DGCA,
06:55should the prime accountability be that of the airline?
06:59It's a private airline.
07:01It's a listed company with a board of directors of some real A-listers.
07:05Should they not have got their act together?
07:07Rajdeep, I disagree with Mr. Bhargav, my former director and boss.
07:13The law provides every airline will be monitored by the DGCA and the ministry.
07:21I will cite you the rules section 3 and section 8 of the DGCA car,
07:26Aircraft Act 1934, rules 1937, rule 134A and section 3 all mandate that every airline will submit its standard force,
07:37will submit its schedule in advance.
07:39These will be monitored by FID.
07:41After the Ahmedabad crash, Rajdeep, Air Marshal Keeler, I believe, was in charge of that.
07:47He wrote a report and they created a flight inspector directorate.
07:50There are officers who are deputed to that FID who are supposed to monitor induction of pilots on a monthly basis.
07:58It's not interference, sir. It is regulation. It has been done by Air India.
08:02I myself, in my last years, when I was grounded medically, sat in operations and did schedules.
08:08Rajdeep, two months before the winter schedule came in, we ran the entire schedule.
08:13The DGCA was sent the standard force, the seven sets per aircraft or the 12 sets per aircraft, the way we operate.
08:21They have a right to do it. It is their bounding duty.
08:24So, therefore, I saw your interview with the minister that day at that panel and I wanted to write to you to tell you the minister does not even know his car.
08:33He does not even know the act that he changed in parliament a few months ago when he called it the Bharatya, Sahita.
08:41You know, it's all there. Rajdeep, it's there. The documents are there. I can share it with you.
08:46So, it is very interesting. It's very interesting today. It's very interesting.
08:49I think DGCA has now suspended four of its officers, allegedly for dereliction of duty.
08:54So, clearly, there is a DGCA angle. But, Sanat Kall, you've been a former Joint Secretary, Ministry of Civil Aviation.
09:01Should we be pinning the door at the government or indeed DGCA's door or as a private airline, as I say, with a stellar board of directors, with a publicly listed company?
09:12Could Indigo have got away so easily by saying, look, it was... And they blamed everyone... At the moment, they don't seem to blame themselves.
09:20They blame the fact that there was congestion in the air, the fact that there were other issues, but do not blame themselves.
09:30Yes, I would put Indigo as fully responsible, but I will give, say, 90% responsible and 10% to DGCA,
09:39because DGCA has a supervisory role, and they should have ensured that they had taken enough pilots to meet the new FDDT guidelines.
09:48So, how do you do that? Are you saying every month they should be monitoring whether Indigo is hiring pilots? Is that the job in your view of DGCA?
09:56No, not every month, but this was a new thing, and they could have, you know, taken some steps to monitor it.
10:01But, as I said, 90% or even 95% Indigo is responsible.
10:06Okay.
10:06But there should have been some supervision. I mean, there has to be a due diligence, you know, by DGCA that, you know, all the airlines...
10:13I'm not talking about Indigo, that all of them are following the new guidelines.
10:17That's the main thing.
10:19And to that extent...
10:21Dr. Sumit, Dr. Sumit Susilan, your chairman, Divine Air, do you believe that Indigo can get away by simply giving extraneous factors responsible for the meltdown,
10:33not taking enough corporate responsibility for perhaps failure in governance?
10:38No, Rajesh. No way. It's an entirely responsibility of Indigo, because Indigo is the alliance which knows how many aircraft they are getting every week.
10:47Average, every nine days, they are getting delivery of one aircraft.
10:50And keeping this thing in mind, they had bidded for the winter schedule.
10:53And on that basis only, they had got the most sectors in the winter schedule.
10:57As well as, they have contracted with multiple companies for pilot trainings.
11:02So now, every month, they have Indigo pilot, but from past six months, they are not recruiting pilots.
11:08They are incorporating more.
11:09So now, at the time of parliament session, when the winter schedule is starting for parliament,
11:14the same time, why they had gone in this way, they cancelled all the flights, is something pre-planned.
11:19Because every airline operator...
11:20You're saying Indigo pre-planned it?
11:22You're claiming Indigo pre-planned this to twist the government?
11:26Is that what you're saying?
11:27So that the FDA norms would not come in place?
11:30Yeah, if every airline can do that thing, why the only company, Indigo, with 65% market stay, can't do that?
11:36And till November, yes, they cancelled multiple flights.
11:39But they're not said that we have any hurdles.
11:41They are coming to the DGC office, giving their report, saying, yes, by the first week of December, everything will be normal.
11:46Then suddenly, why 1,600 flights got cancelled?
11:50Definitely, Indigo is aware.
11:51They have the pilots.
11:52And last month, they are saying they don't have pilots.
11:54And the weather issues and all.
11:56How come?
11:58So, definitely, Indigo had to be blamed.
12:00Captain Amit Singh, do you believe Indigo pulled the wool over DGCA's eyes?
12:04Or DGCA turned a blind eye?
12:06And what about the board of directors?
12:10Look, when you investigate an incident like this,
12:15the proximate cause is, yes, Indigo did it.
12:18Because that is the first entity which comes into court.
12:23So, but the root cause is something else.
12:24Root cause means if you eliminate that issue, it will not happen again.
12:29You can blame Indigo, yes, for their faults, etc.
12:32You can penalize them.
12:34But it will happen again.
12:35So, to go to the root cause, you have to go deeper inside.
12:38So, what's the root cause?
12:39What is the root cause?
12:42Yeah, so I'm coming to that.
12:43I'll cite your interview yesterday.
12:45The Honorable Minister very clearly said that there were cancellations in November
12:50when the FETN was implemented.
12:52Then things stabilized.
12:54And on 1st of December, there was a meeting between DGCA, Indigo and the ministry.
13:01So, what was the need for the ministry to come in when DGCA wanted certain clarifications?
13:06Had they got clarifications, they could have sought clarifications from DGCA.
13:10Why the ministry?
13:11So, clarification is not being sought.
13:14Extension or exemption is being sought.
13:16Which did not happen probably.
13:18And this is what perpetuated.
13:21They said if you don't give us...
13:21So, you're...
13:22No, let me get it clear.
13:23You're telling me Indigo sought an exemption on the 1st of December,
13:28was hoping that the FDLTL norms would be pushed back by a few months.
13:33And because it didn't happen, they got caught unawares or the government...
13:37Or they expected the government, because they are such a monopoly player,
13:41they expected the government to climb down and say,
13:44okay, we'll give you three more months.
13:45That's what you're claiming.
13:46Am I correct?
13:52Am I right?
13:53Captain Amit Singh, am I right?
13:55Yeah.
13:56So, a clarification...
13:58Correct.
13:58So, a clarification is only sought on a rule which is implemented.
14:03Right?
14:03That, can I do this?
14:05Can I do that?
14:05And how do I do it?
14:07But what is the need for a ministry to come in for a meeting with DGCA?
14:11Just for a clarification.
14:13It is something more.
14:16Okay, there is something more.
14:18Let me bring in Jitendra Bhargava at this moment.
14:22It is an exemption or an extension.
14:24Okay.
14:25Jitendra Bhargava was...
14:26You know, we are...
14:27Was Indigo using its monopolistic...
14:29No, let's be clear.
14:30Was Indigo using its monopolistic position, 66% of market share,
14:35to arm twist the government to give an extension to the FDTL norms?
14:38Rajdeep, there are two points here.
14:43Rajdeep, first is, after the disruption of flight,
14:46we are putting this question that should DGCA have asked them
14:49to monitor the pilots, etc.
14:51Let's take Indigo's performance prior to November 30th.
14:55A remarkable airline, professionally run airline,
14:58on growth-oriented, and everything was going good.
15:01It is only after the disruption of flight on 3rd, 4th, and 5th December
15:05that we are raising up this question of DGCA not having monitored.
15:09Now, when you come up with the monopoly condition,
15:11let me explain to you, Indigo was not designed
15:14to be a monopoly player of monopolizing 65% of the market.
15:19Let's go back into the history.
15:21In 2011, we had six airlines.
15:23Indigo had 20% market share.
15:25Kingfisher collapsed, and Indigo took most of the market share
15:29of Kingfisher Airlines, increased to 28%.
15:32In 2019, JTA was collapsed.
15:35Market share went up to 50%.
15:37And then, when Gophers collapsed,
15:39the market share went up beyond 60%.
15:42Now, what was the message here?
15:44Many other airlines fell as far as the market share was concerned.
15:48SpiceJet is a startling example.
15:50From 18%, it came down to 4%.
15:51No other airline could get on to increase the market share of any airline once an airline collapsed.
15:59Now, imagine if Indigo had not stepped in with the large capacity induction to get the enhanced market share.
16:06Capacity deficit in the market, astronomical pricing, affairs, etc. would have taken place.
16:12Now that this 3rd, 4th, 5th December thing has left a bad taste as to what went wrong.
16:19And that is where I said in the initial comments, Indigo must take the entire blame for what has happened.
16:25Yes, one can say there could be arrogance on the part over optimism on the part of Indigo management.
16:30Are you saying, no sir, are you saying that Indigo is too big to regulate?
16:36What they ought to have done was to have truncated their flight schedule so that last minute cancellation was not to take place and passengers were not inconvenienced.
16:46Now, are you saying that Indigo was too big in a way to regulate?
16:50That they had to get their act together as a private company?
16:53The government, the regulator could do very little?
16:58So that's what I'm saying.
17:00Indigo bungled big way.
17:02It could be out of arrogance, it could be out of complacency, it could be out of the belief that we are a 65% dominant market player.
17:11Government will probably yield ground and say, okay, take another couple of months.
17:14And they did not.
17:16And they should not have expected, in my opinion, any extension from the government.
17:20Because the moment DGCA would have buckled in, there would have been pressure from the pilot community and others
17:25that DGCA is not acting independently, but buckling under airline pressure.
17:31Okay, I'll come to you, Sherbin, in a moment, but Sanjay Lazar, quickly respond to what you've heard, because you've got a contrarian view.
17:38You believe the regulator should have possibly put a red flag right at the very outset, not allowed Indigo to stretch it, push it till the 1st of December.
17:48Am I correct?
17:49That no giving extensions, you jolly well get your act together.
17:52Rajdeep, it's like this. Indigo is, like Mr. Kohl said, 90% to blame, but the minister cannot say that he and the DGCA were not responsible.
18:03There is a level of collusion inside the DGCA with this organization that you cannot believe.
18:09People on the panel may not agree.
18:10You know, it will come out if you have a CVC inquiry over, you know, the JDGs passing.
18:16The same man who approved increased flights, knew they were cancelling 1,000 flights in November, sat with them on the 1st of December,
18:25is the same guy who show causes them, is the same guy who's on the inquiry.
18:28I mean, this is a joke.
18:30So you're saying there was collusion? No, no, one minute.
18:32You're saying there was collusion between DGCA and the airline.
18:35I am clearly saying it, and so has Amit, and let me be very clear, you're putting the same man who approved an increase,
18:42you know, they've increased by 900 flights in winter over summer, without having the pilots.
18:49They should have checked that, number one.
18:51Number two, you know in November they've cancelled 1,200 flights.
18:54You sit with them on the 1st of December.
18:56The same person who approved the increase then sits in that meeting.
19:00Then you find that the same person is issuing the show cause, when all crap hits the fan.
19:06I mean, let's be very clear, there is shaking hands here, and I'm not going to back down on this point.
19:13Let me also say another thing, that Indigo is too big to fail.
19:17We will cripple our entire market, unfortunately, and that's why the dispensation had to be given.
19:24I'm against it.
19:24Can I just for a moment bring in Sherbir Panag?
19:29Sherbir, you're a lawyer.
19:30Do you believe there's corporate accountability here?
19:33That is not just the CEO of Indigo, but it's the board of directors.
19:36It's their job to ensure that the company is working according to standards that have been set.
19:41These are, as I keep saying, A-listers.
19:43They are the ones who should have been seeing whether Indigo got its act together or not.
19:47Rajdeep, when it comes to a matter of accountability, I think we've got to look at it in two prisms.
19:55First and foremost is Indigo's professional management.
19:59Every board of directors relies on, has a legitimate expectation to rely on its professional management,
20:04and they have A-listers in professional management as well.
20:06And then comes the culpability of the boards.
20:14Absolutely, this is a historic failure when it comes to Indigo.
20:21But I want to bring and build a nuance in here so that we can very squarely put the issue into play.
20:28Rajdeep, this at its heart is a flight safety issue.
20:32The flight duty time limits is not some socialist measure that was being imposed,
20:37but rather was being done to ensure safety of Indian aviation.
20:42Indigo, rather than being a responsible, large player in Indian aviation,
20:46fought this tooth and nail and did every trick in the book.
20:50These issues started in 2024.
20:53Even in mid-2025, they knew the deadline was coming up for 1st November.
20:57So, the fact that Indigo was poorly prepared and they had such poor systems
21:02is something that they need to, that they are accountable for,
21:05and they are the ones who submit their flight schedules.
21:07Nobody can conjure a flight schedule.
21:08So, you're saying they put profits above safety?
21:11You're saying they put profits above safety?
21:13I've said this on record, that Indigo would rather risk safety,
21:17risk an aviation incident, risk the safety of passengers,
21:21rather than focus on flight duty time limits.
21:23Their entire strategy since the matter has started of the FDTL norms
21:28has been to delay them.
21:30And even on 1st of December, it was to delay them.
21:32Rajdeep, tell me, look at the dates from 1st of June
21:35all the way to 1st of November,
21:36and look at what the dates are going to be from 1st of November to February 2026.
21:41Is this not enough?
21:42Was there not enough time up to 1st November?
21:45And what is magically going to change between now and February,
21:48barring the fact that the entire,
21:50that Indian aviation was brought to a standstill?
21:52So, that's part one of the issue.
21:55And I've been very unequivocal on this particular position
21:58all across since this incident broke.
22:00The second part is the regulator.
22:02Rajdeep, if I had to draw a parallel as somebody who's acted on virtually
22:05every major corporate governance crisis in the last couple of years,
22:09if the Reserve Bank of India was undertaking such a large change
22:13to company or to IT systems of banks or such a large-scale reform,
22:18it would have had significant more scrutiny.
22:20It would have ensured that the systems are in place.
22:23And the RBI does that.
22:25And that is the reason why we don't have the kind of failures that we have.
22:28And they learn very, very quickly from it.
22:30And there are several other unsung heroes.
22:32The DGCA is to blame.
22:35The DGCA cannot look the other way and say,
22:37oh, their crew resource management system was a failure.
22:41Are we going to blame this whole thing on a software glitch at this juncture?
22:44We have so much regulation in this country
22:46that you can't change your name without 17 NOCs.
22:49And you're telling me a specialist sector with a specialist regulator.
22:52This isn't a regulator looking into leave and license agreements.
22:57This is a specialist regulator looking at a specialist sector.
22:59Did not audit the crew management systems
23:03and the softwares out here.
23:05So I completely don't buy this.
23:06The DGCA must be held to account.
23:09The DGCA must be held to account that it too had two years,
23:12just like Indigo did and failed to do anything
23:15and rather continue doing the Indigo's bidding
23:19and was okay with a safety norm being delayed.
23:22As in for a regulator, to have a safety norm being delayed,
23:25is tomorrow should what?
23:26Should SEBI be okay with mutual funds,
23:28not paying people in T plus two days?
23:31Should the RBI not care about our banking security?
23:33As in, this is ridiculous on all levels
23:35and preposterous for anyone to say DGCA is not to blame.
23:38You know, so you've got, I think, some element of clarity.
23:41Yes, principal blame on Indigo as the carrier,
23:44but the regulator cannot escape accountability in this instance.
23:47Therefore, it brings me to my second question on the round table.
23:50Action against Indigo.
23:52Is it too little, too late?
23:54Captain, do you want to take this first?
23:57Captain Amit Singh,
23:58Do you believe that the government now has stepped in,
24:01said 10% of their flight operations have been suspended
24:05and will be given to other airlines?
24:07Presumably that the CEO is being called again and again every day
24:12as if the DGCA now is finding...
24:13Do you believe it's enough?
24:14Head of the organization is the accountable manager
24:20and accountable manager is basically accountable to the regulator.
24:25If the minister says or believes that he can fire the CEO,
24:31basically he can fire the CEO because he's the accountable manager.
24:36The accountable manager is interviewed and appointed by DGCA.
24:40So, that is...
24:41A lot of people have been discussing that in a private organization,
24:44you cannot fire the CEO,
24:46but an accountable manager can be fired
24:48on account of being appointed by DGCA
24:50for discharging certain duties.
24:55But is the 10% cut in flight operations really a solution?
25:00No, 10% is an eyewash because no airline operates up to 100% of their schedule.
25:09There are always cancellations.
25:11Indigo has been operating about 90% to 95%.
25:14So, anyways, if you cut 5%, they would be operating like normal.
25:20And another 5% would be a slight dip in their operations.
25:26So, that won't hurt them any much, too much.
25:28So, idea is there has to be penal action.
25:31What hurts them?
25:32Firstly, why is the accountable manager still there
25:35while all this is happening?
25:38No, so what are you saying?
25:39No, no, one minute.
25:40No, no, one minute.
25:41When you say, sir, one minute.
25:42When you say accountable manager,
25:43you're saying the CEO should be sacked?
25:45That the government is going to decide about sacking the CEO?
25:48That's Indigo's responsibility.
25:49How can the government of India decide to sack a CEO
25:51of a private airline?
25:53No, like I said, he's the accountable manager.
25:57DGCA gives the go-ahead for the accountable manager.
26:01DGCA can refuse the appointment of the accountable manager
26:03because he has to undergo an interview with DGCA
26:08before being appointed.
26:09So, they can take away that privilege from the CEO
26:12that you're not the accountable manager,
26:13we'll appoint somebody else as accountable manager.
26:16So, that can happen anytime.
26:18Sanat Kaur, you worked with the government
26:20as a former joint secretary.
26:21Do you believe the government, the minister already said,
26:24even in my interview yesterday,
26:26that if the need comes, if I find it was willful negligence
26:29on the part of Indigo, we can sack the CEO.
26:31Do you believe that's the government's job?
26:35That's a technicality, but he's already pointed out
26:38that there is a concept of accountable manager.
26:40So, that accountable manager is the issue
26:45and that can be sacked.
26:48Now, accountable manager is a very important thing
26:50for an airline.
26:50It can't run without an accountable manager.
26:52So, they will have to appoint somebody
26:54who is acceptable to DGCA.
26:56Now, while I'm talking,
26:58I'd like to raise a couple of other points.
27:00One is the DGCA's office itself.
27:02You know, around earlier,
27:05they had thought of having a CAA,
27:08a Civil Aviation Authority,
27:12which is there in the UK and other places,
27:14which will be independent,
27:16it will have much bigger staff,
27:17it can recruit its own people,
27:19it can appoint.
27:20Today, DGCA is probably 50% staffed,
27:24it is totally a subordinate office of the ministry,
27:26and therefore to call it independent under the act
27:29is being rather foolish.
27:32So, the DGCA itself is,
27:35you know, it's a very difficult job for DGCA,
27:38plus they keep appointing people
27:40who have no experience as the director,
27:43the director general.
27:44So, these are issues which I think
27:45need to be now probed into,
27:47that why, that I said 5 or 10% is the blame of DGCA,
27:51why were they not looking into this aspect
27:53when they were approving the winter schedule,
27:56that do they have enough pilots or not?
27:58Although, although, I would say,
28:00yes, it is 100% responsibility of the Indigo,
28:02of the airline concerned,
28:04and the board of directors and others.
28:05But can I come, Dr. Susi Lund,
28:10you had a private airline,
28:11you all worked with charters,
28:13can you believe the government of India
28:15can put pressure on Indigo to decide
28:17who should be their CEO?
28:20Rajiv, I've been running a commercial airline in India
28:23by the name of Erudisa,
28:24the first Udan group which we started,
28:26so I know,
28:27we had a CEO and DGCA never took their interview,
28:31they just give a NOC,
28:32even you might heard that
28:33there was a Turkish guy
28:35who was about to join Air India,
28:36but he had not got the NOC,
28:38that's why then later on Campbell came in
28:40to lead Air India.
28:42So, definitely there's no interference of DGCA
28:44on the appointment of a CEO,
28:46only the NOC required from the DCA.
28:48So, sacking a official CEO from the airline,
28:52definitely is a call for the board of directors,
28:54because it's a private company,
28:56it's not anymore government company,
28:58like Air India earlier.
28:59So, definitely the call has to be taken
29:01by the board of directors of Indigo itself.
29:03And, now when you come to the monopoly,
29:05when you said the monopoly of Indigo,
29:07I tell you,
29:08there are so many airlines got collapsed
29:10due to these airlines
29:11because they eat up the market.
29:12They don't let other small players
29:15to operate in particular routes.
29:17If I give you an example,
29:18in the Raipur flight,
29:19where the Flybeek alliance
29:20were operating in a cost of Rs. 2500,
29:23whereas Indigo came in
29:24and started operating A320 aircraft.
29:26And within three months,
29:27Flybeek had moved out of the same sector.
29:30And after six months of the same,
29:32the Indigo stopped operating in that route
29:33because they don't want anyone
29:35to operate in particular routes.
29:36So, you're saying Indigo misused
29:38its monopolistic position.
29:39They managed to get schedules
29:41that suited them.
29:42They, therefore, were able
29:43to enhance profits
29:44and, according to at least Sherbeel,
29:46often at the cost of safety.
29:48Unfortunately, of course,
29:49we don't have someone from Indigo.
29:51I wish we had.
29:52They've not yet come on camera
29:53to explain their side of the story.
29:55I hope they do in the days ahead.
29:56But, Sanjay Lazar,
29:57this whole question of
29:58is the action of the ministry
30:01and DGCA simply an eyewash?
30:03You call the CEO every day
30:05to your office
30:06as if you're fully in charge.
30:07All of this should have happened,
30:08many believe, in November
30:10or even before that.
30:11Do you believe that sacking a CEO,
30:14you know, sacking Peter Elber
30:15will actually solve anything?
30:18Rajdeep, I'd just like to weigh in
30:19on that part
30:20because Amit has said something
30:22and Dr. Sushilan has said something.
30:24Two things.
30:25One is the accountable manager,
30:27officer, under the car
30:28is answerable to the DGCA.
30:32It may not be Peter Elber.
30:33In this case, I think it could be
30:35the COO.
30:36Okay, I could be wrong.
30:38I will be stand corrected.
30:39The second thing is the CEO
30:41and like Dr. Sushilan said,
30:43is gets home ministry approval.
30:46Remember this.
30:47Forget about DGCA.
30:49He gets home ministry approval
30:50because aviation is a
30:52important sector.
30:54So therefore...
30:55But it's a private company, Sanjay.
30:57How can the government decide?
30:58It doesn't matter, sir.
30:59It is aviation.
31:00Aviation is a sensitive sector.
31:03Every CEO of all the private airlines
31:05are bound to get home ministry clearance.
31:09You can check...
31:09No, Raj, I wouldn't have to say...
31:10It's one thing to get home ministry clearance.
31:13It's another thing to decide on the sacking.
31:15No, no.
31:15All I want to know...
31:16It can be withdrawn by the government.
31:17What is...
31:17Then you tell me what, according to you,
31:20Mr. Lazar, is the right action to take?
31:22Give me the action that you believe
31:24will act as a deterrent.
31:25Please, Rajdeep.
31:26I was pointing out the technicality
31:28of removal or non-removal.
31:30Okay.
31:31Let's come to what is the correct
31:32punishment for the airline.
31:34They've been docked 10%.
31:36I do believe they'll get a large monetary fine,
31:38probably a record monetary fine
31:40by the DGCA and the government of India,
31:42whatever permits within the act and the law.
31:45I also believe there's going to be huge scrutiny
31:48and they will be brought to question
31:50on the induction of aircrafts
31:52subject to their having pilots.
31:55I can see this coming in the future.
31:57Sanat Kaur, you wanted to respond.
31:59Please go ahead, sir.
32:01No, I mean, basically what I was saying was that
32:05DGCA has a responsibility
32:07which is definitely there
32:09and they must look into all this
32:11but they are crippled.
32:14They are crippled
32:14and the concept of civil evasion authority
32:16which was passed by the cabinet
32:19which was put as an act in the parliament
32:21was then not taken up
32:26by the new government.
32:27Sir, you made that point.
32:28You believe that the DGCA has been crippled
32:30but Jitendra Bhargava,
32:32is this action too little too late?
32:34Is this optics?
32:35When you have the DGCA,
32:37for example,
32:38the CEO of Indigo doing folded hands
32:41before the minister,
32:42is that all optics according to you
32:43or has the government sent out a tough message?
32:49No, the action has been too little,
32:52too late on multiple fronts.
32:54Third, fourth, fifth,
32:56when did the government react
32:57and when did the government give 10%
32:58curtail the 10% flights of Indigo
33:01and give it to other airlines?
33:02Could have been done earlier.
33:03This pleasure was known to the Indigo
33:05that, look, we are not happy
33:07with the way Indigo has behaved
33:08or Indigo has disrupted the flight schedule,
33:11brought Indian aviation a bad name.
33:13Now, to me,
33:14the board has got the message.
33:16The board should take a call
33:18sooner than later
33:18but immediate sacking of the CEO
33:21would only throw the airline
33:23greater turmoil.
33:25At this moment,
33:26the priority is to put the operation
33:28back on track,
33:29ensure the minimum inconveniences
33:31caused to passengers.
33:32Imagine if the succession plan
33:35within Indigo
33:36is not there.
33:37What would happen
33:38if Peter Elber
33:39is to go away
33:40at short notice
33:42and leave the airline in turmoil?
33:44They wouldn't know anything about it.
33:45So, in my opinion,
33:46let things unfold
33:48in a systemic manner.
33:49Ministry of Civilization
33:51has made its displeasure known.
33:53The fact that Peter Elber
33:54has been summoned
33:55and made to answer,
33:57Indigo has given an answer
33:58that we do not really know
34:00or we can't identify
34:01the real problem.
34:02We'll take 15 more days
34:03time to come back
34:04and give you a reply
34:05to the show call notice,
34:06etc.
34:07All can't be accepted.
34:09And the LFBs
34:10that they put forth
34:10on the second day,
34:114th of December,
34:12was simply not bought by anyone.
34:15Neither the traveling public,
34:16nor the aviation expert,
34:18nor the DGC, etc.
34:19So, I don't know
34:20why Indigo
34:21was trying to hoodwink,
34:23not be truthful
34:24to the DGCA,
34:25the regulatory agency,
34:27to the traveling public,
34:28to him,
34:29which is really an apology
34:30and they have apologized,
34:32though belatedly.
34:34Sherby Panak,
34:35do you believe
34:35it's too little too late?
34:36What would you like to see
34:37that would restore
34:38a coin to you
34:39confidence
34:39in such a situation?
34:42Since you deal
34:42with corporate governance,
34:44should the corporate,
34:45should the board of directors
34:46have acted earlier
34:47or leave it now to DGCA?
34:50So, Rathip,
34:51I think each party
34:52has to do their own job
34:53in this
34:54and no board of directors
34:56of any company
34:57is expected to do
34:57day-to-day management.
34:58The day-to-day management
34:59is with professional management.
35:02So, therefore,
35:03it's a little unfair
35:04to put the entire element
35:05at the door of the board.
35:08It's also, I think,
35:09what Indigo needs to do
35:10is come out clearly
35:11in terms of
35:12what did professional management
35:13tell the board
35:14and how did the board
35:16respond to that.
35:16Now, both of them
35:17are complicit
35:17that there's nothing
35:18that can be done
35:19but that information
35:20isn't there
35:20and till then,
35:21given the personalities involved,
35:23I would reserve my comments.
35:25I don't believe
35:26Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa
35:27and Ms. Pallavi Shroff,
35:29knowing them professionally
35:32and knowing their
35:33professional reputations
35:34would be sleeping on the wheel.
35:37So, I think I'd wait
35:39to see what
35:39professional management did
35:41but now that everything
35:43is out in the open,
35:44the question that
35:45for the board is,
35:46and it's not,
35:47I wouldn't agree
35:47with the statement
35:48that, you know,
35:49if a CEO has to be replaced,
35:50that's the job
35:50of a nomination
35:51and remuneration committee
35:52of the board.
35:53This is ultimately
35:53a very large enterprise
35:54which is governed.
35:57So, there's a nomination
35:58and remuneration committee
35:59which is supposed to look
36:00into elements
36:01of succession planning
36:01and ensure that
36:02in moments such as these
36:03it's able to...
36:04Because you've got the
36:05managing director
36:06Rahul Bhatia
36:06who's sitting in Switzerland.
36:08I just want to try
36:09and understand,
36:09do you believe
36:10someone on this show
36:11has today said
36:11all of this was collusion
36:13between DGCA and Indigo.
36:14These are serious charges.
36:15Who investigates them?
36:16DGCA,
36:17which is the same
36:18agency which is being
36:20accused of collusion,
36:21who investigates it?
36:22Do you have an
36:23independent inquiry?
36:24How do you actually
36:25come to the bottom of it?
36:27So, I think we've got
36:28to look at it in multiple...
36:30We've got to break this
36:31down into multiple aspects.
36:33We've got to...
36:33First and foremost,
36:35we definitely need
36:36an inquiry
36:36by an independent probe
36:39and not some random folks
36:40from DGCA
36:41who are the sort of
36:42usual lackeys
36:42who keep doing these things.
36:44But we need an independent probe
36:45into how did the flight...
36:47Let's go back to basics.
36:48This is a flight safety issue.
36:50This isn't Indigo...
36:51This isn't a software glitch.
36:53This isn't operationally
36:54suddenly they forgot
36:55how to put this together.
36:56They were hoping
36:57this flight duty time limit
36:58norms do not come into...
37:00Do not come into picture.
37:02And they were also hoping
37:02that the can can get kicked down
37:04as far down as possible.
37:07And an independent inquiry
37:08is absolutely needed
37:10to see who from DGCA
37:12was okay with this can
37:13being kicked as far down
37:15as it was.
37:16Okay.
37:17So, I think for that
37:17we need one.
37:18The second part, Rajdeep,
37:19I think there are too many
37:20sub-layers of what needs
37:22investigation
37:22and who needs to do it.
37:24Indigo's abuse
37:25of dominant positions.
37:26Some very important points
37:28have been raised.
37:28That needs to be investigated
37:29by the Competition Commission
37:30of India.
37:33Somebody at the DGCA
37:34took all these Indigo plans in.
37:37They approved their...
37:38their flight schedules
37:42and their winter flying schedule.
37:44That person needs to be taken to task
37:45and so do the people at Indigo
37:46who submitted those flight schedules
37:48get taken to task.
37:50Lastly, on this whole thing about
37:51should the DGCA remove the CEO?
37:53The CEO is ornamental in this.
37:54There's a whole host of people.
37:56In these cases,
37:57world over,
37:58there's always a challenge
37:59of doing one small symbolic action
38:01of letting the CEO go.
38:02And I don't agree
38:03with this element
38:04of where we are saying
38:05that there's an NOC only.
38:07As in, what is the NOC?
38:08A rubber stamp.
38:09Pilots can't leave this country
38:10without NOC.
38:11You should talk to a couple of pilots
38:13and you'll get a fair sense
38:14of the kind of loops
38:15the DGCA makes them
38:16jump through,
38:17whether it's medical tests
38:18or otherwise,
38:19which is all fair
38:19and they should do that.
38:21So are we saying
38:21the CEO of the country's
38:23largest airline's appointment
38:24is an NOC?
38:26No, it's not.
38:26There's a fit and proper test
38:28and standard
38:28that is established.
38:30It's established
38:30for bank MDs as well.
38:32I have 10 minutes
38:34on the show.
38:35I want to turn
38:35to a third big question.
38:36Is the business model
38:38of a private airline
38:39under siege?
38:39And we've seen this
38:40over the years.
38:41Several Indian airlines
38:42have seized operations
38:43over the years
38:44due to financial distress,
38:45mergers, insolvency.
38:47Remember Jet Airways,
38:48Jet Light,
38:48formerly Sahara Airways,
38:50operated from the mid-90s
38:51to 2019,
38:53shut down heavy debt,
38:54intense fare wars.
38:56Naresh Goyal
38:57was even prosecuted.
38:58Air Deccan operated
38:59from 2003 to 2008,
39:01was merged with
39:02Kingfisher Airlines
39:03which itself collapsed
39:04in 2012
39:05under a massive debt
39:06exceeding 9,000 crores.
39:08Vijay Malia is out
39:08of the country
39:09who was the promoter
39:11of Paramount Airways
39:12also folded due to debt.
39:14Go first earlier
39:14known as Go Airlines
39:15operated from 2005 to 23,
39:19also entering insolvency.
39:20Smaller airlines,
39:21MDLR,
39:22Air Pegasus,
39:23Air Costa,
39:24Zoom Air,
39:25all have shut down.
39:26Air Asia and Vistara
39:27ended operations,
39:28were merged into Air India
39:29more recently.
39:31So it hasn't been
39:32and we'll put out
39:33the profit numbers
39:33in a moment
39:34but Dr. Susiland,
39:36since you have been running,
39:37experience of running
39:38private airlines,
39:39is this an unviable sector
39:40across the world?
39:41Not easy to make money
39:42on aviation
39:43but in India,
39:44it's particularly accentuated.
39:46Rahul Bhatia
39:47and Rahul Gangwal
39:47of Indigo
39:48may have got lucky
39:49at one time
39:50but it's not enough?
39:52So,
39:53there is a say
39:54that if you want
39:55to be a millionaire,
39:56spend billions
39:56in aviation business
39:57that's what,
39:58because you lose
39:59money in aviation business
40:01especially when it comes
40:02to Indian market,
40:03definitely the taxes
40:03are very high,
40:04the fuel price
40:05keep fluctuating
40:06in favor of the government
40:07not in favor of the airline.
40:09Definitely,
40:10it's not a profitable sector
40:11within India.
40:12That's why
40:12no investor
40:13want to invest
40:14in commercial airlines
40:15in India
40:16because whichever
40:17example we see,
40:18whichever case studies
40:18we see,
40:19we always see
40:19the airlines are collapsing
40:20in India.
40:21I had operated
40:22my own airline
40:22Air Udisa
40:23in Udaan route
40:24but it takes
40:25months for me
40:26to get the subsidies
40:27from the airline
40:28the airports
40:29were not ready.
40:30Now we have
40:30162 airports
40:31but when we started
40:32the operation
40:33and when we had
40:34bidded around
40:3574 routes
40:36under Udaan scheme
40:37we got only
40:3810 operational airports.
40:40My aircraft
40:40was parked
40:41in the hangar
40:42for days
40:42because there was
40:43no airports.
40:44So now
40:44the taxes
40:45are very high
40:46if you go
40:47for a private airport
40:48to land
40:48in that private airport
40:49the taxes
40:50are huge
40:50so we don't
40:51want to fly in that.
40:52So if you take
40:53an example
40:53of Bombay airport
40:54we don't want
40:54to fly to Bombay airport
40:55because we want
40:56to go to Pune
40:56because the airport
40:57comes under
40:57airport therapy
40:58to India
40:58and taxes
40:59are less there.
41:00So definitely
41:00business of aviation
41:01in India
41:01is not so suitable.
41:03Okay let me bring
41:04in more voices
41:05on that.
41:05Sanjay Lazar
41:06you know there's
41:07so much of talk
41:07when I asked
41:08the minister
41:08he said
41:08our plan is
41:09to have 5
41:10competitive airlines
41:11over the next
41:115 years
41:12that's what will
41:13bring passenger
41:14fares down
41:14will make the
41:15industry more
41:16competitive.
41:16It's not happening
41:17I've heard this
41:18over the years
41:18open skies
41:19I heard Praful Patel
41:20talk about it
41:2120 years ago
41:22now I hear
41:22Mr. Raman
41:24I do talk about it
41:24Raman I do talk
41:25about it
41:25is that possible
41:26or not?
41:27Is there something
41:28structurally wrong?
41:30Rajdeep
41:30there are two
41:32points in this
41:32question
41:33one is
41:34is there space
41:35there is room
41:36for at least
41:37one full service
41:38carrier in my view
41:39and one
41:39really ultra low
41:41cost or regional
41:42carrier
41:43we have space
41:45but like
41:45Dr. Sushilan
41:46says
41:47we are structurally
41:49long
41:4950 plus percent
41:51is ATF
41:52then you've got
41:52the taxes
41:53your airport
41:54taxes
41:54cute
41:55UDF
41:56all this
41:57so it makes
41:58it a challenging
41:59task for any
42:00entrepreneur
42:01to start an airline
42:03and grow the way
42:03Indigo
42:04or Spice
42:05or Akasa
42:06has grown
42:06excuse me
42:08but government
42:09needs to look at
42:10this very carefully
42:11if it wants
42:11more competition
42:12if it wants
42:14to avoid
42:14the monopoly
42:15that it sees
42:16from Indigo
42:17then it's got
42:18to restructure
42:19the operations
42:20it's got
42:21to reduce
42:22taxes
42:22it's got
42:23to make
42:23it more
42:23friendly
42:24so people
42:25come in
42:25and they're
42:26welcomed in
42:27with less
42:28of this burden
42:29so that's
42:30that's one
42:30very important
42:31thing
42:31that's the only
42:32way we are
42:32going to see
42:33expansion of
42:33this aviation
42:34sector
42:35otherwise
42:35you know
42:36like he says
42:36billionaires
42:37will become
42:38millionaires
42:38and hold up
42:3915-20
42:40airlines
42:41have shut
42:41shops
42:41since 1992
42:43and we'll
42:44only expect
42:45to happen
42:45you know
42:46we've got
42:47limited time
42:48I want to
42:48bring you
42:48in Jitendra
42:49Bhargava
42:49I remember
42:49you used
42:50to write
42:50about Air
42:51India
42:51once you
42:52left Air
42:52India
42:53about how
42:53Air
42:53India's
42:53monopoly
42:54had in
42:55a way
42:55destroyed
42:56the
42:56ended up
42:58or the
42:59government
42:59ended up
42:59destroying
43:00Air
43:01India
43:01because of
43:01the
43:02excessive
43:02governmental
43:03control
43:03today
43:04open skies
43:05private
43:05airlines
43:06and we
43:06have
43:06many of
43:07the same
43:07crises
43:08coming back
43:09crises
43:09of
43:09governance
43:10crises
43:10of not
43:11expanding
43:11the sector
43:12fast
43:12enough
43:13even
43:13though
43:13the
43:13number
43:14of
43:14airports
43:14are
43:14increasing
43:15the
43:15number
43:15of
43:16passengers
43:16are
43:17expected
43:17to
43:17grow
43:17exponentially
43:18there
43:19seems
43:19to be
43:20somewhere
43:20something
43:21structurally
43:21wrong
43:22what's
43:22the
43:22solution
43:23Mr.
43:29Bhargava
43:30the
43:34government
43:35should
43:35stay away
43:36from the
43:36aviation
43:37sector
43:37the
43:39government
43:40should
43:40simply
43:40stay away
43:41from it
43:41they've
43:41let the
43:42private
43:42enterprise
43:43come in
43:43and run
43:43it
43:44yes
43:44there are
43:45flaws
43:45in the
43:45system
43:46at the
43:46moment
43:46as the
43:47indigo
43:48climbing
43:48to the
43:49market
43:49share
43:49dominant
43:50player
43:5065%
43:51market
43:51share
43:51but that's
43:52been
43:52entirely
43:53because
43:53they could
43:53seize the
43:54opportunity
43:54when an
43:55airline
43:56collapse
43:56now imagine
43:57if the
43:57minister
43:57says
43:58there is
43:58room
43:59for five
43:59airlines
44:00in the
44:01country
44:01the
44:02question
44:02is
44:02who
44:03will
44:03seat
44:03ground
44:04or
44:04market
44:04share
44:04indigo
44:06already
44:06has
44:06placed
44:06orders
44:07for a
44:07thousand
44:07aircraft
44:08air
44:08india
44:09570
44:09both of
44:10them
44:10account
44:11for 90%
44:11domestic
44:12market
44:12share
44:12and in
44:13the
44:13beginning
44:13just one
44:14correction
44:15you made
44:15a statement
44:16on the
44:16number of
44:17pilots
44:17you had
44:18per
44:18aircraft
44:18indigo
44:19and air
44:19india
44:20let's not
44:20forget
44:20that air
44:21india has
44:22a large
44:22number
44:23of long
44:24haul
44:24large
44:24capacity
44:25aircraft
44:25so the
44:26requirement
44:26when you have
44:27the rest
44:27period
44:27and all
44:28the requirement
44:29is more
44:30in the case
44:30of air
44:30india
44:31as compared
44:31to an
44:32airline
44:32which is
44:33operating
44:33medium
44:34size
44:34or small
44:35aircraft
44:35on short
44:36haul
44:36sectors
44:36you know
44:38captain
44:39amit
44:39singh
44:39in a lot
44:40of the
44:41discussions
44:41so far
44:41we haven't
44:42spoken about
44:42pilots
44:43their concerns
44:44you speak
44:44to them
44:45off the
44:45record
44:45they wanted
44:46these
44:46FDATL
44:48rules
44:48now they've
44:48been pushed
44:49back to
44:49February
44:50is that a
44:50fear
44:51that pilots
44:52concerns
44:52at the
44:53moment
44:53have lost
44:53out
44:54because of
44:55all that's
44:55happened in
44:56the last
44:56week
44:56their genuine
44:58concerns
44:58over their
44:59safety
45:00stress
45:00levels
45:01see
45:05if you
45:06see the
45:06history
45:06of
45:06FDATL
45:07right from
45:081992
45:082007
45:10FDATL
45:11was issued
45:12it was
45:12kept under
45:13abeyance
45:13because of
45:14pressure
45:14from the
45:14airlines
45:14then 2011
45:16another
45:16FDATL
45:17came
45:172012
45:18there was
45:19Mangalore
45:19crash
45:20FDATL
45:20was
45:21more
45:22stringent
45:23rules were
45:24implemented
45:24but again
45:25there was
45:25a pushback
45:26from the
45:26airlines
45:26it was
45:27kept under
45:28abeyance
45:28and again
45:292019
45:30it was
45:30issued
45:3124
45:31again
45:32under
45:32abeyance
45:33so there's
45:34always a
45:34push
45:34from the
45:35airlines
45:35and for
45:36some reason
45:37the rules
45:39which are
45:39meant for
45:40safety
45:40are kept
45:41under
45:41abeyance
45:42so that
45:43is the
45:43history of
45:43FDATL
45:43which is
45:46exactly my
45:47question
45:47how do you
45:48make India
45:48skies safer
45:49and more
45:50competitive
45:50how do you
45:51get more
45:51players and
45:52make them
45:52safer
45:52do you
45:53think it's
45:54possible
45:54captain
45:55to do
45:55both
45:56make the
45:56skies safer
45:57but bring
45:57in more
45:58players
45:58aviation is
46:01highly regulated
46:02or rather
46:02over regulated
46:03Indigo itself
46:04is not a
46:05true low cost
46:06airline
46:06it's a
46:06hybrid
46:06airline
46:07because the
46:08regulatory
46:08requirement
46:09are so
46:09much
46:10that one
46:10person can
46:11do only
46:12one job
46:12like a
46:13security
46:13person
46:14can only
46:14do a
46:15security
46:15job
46:15he cannot
46:16do somebody
46:16else's
46:16job
46:17so
46:17therefore
46:19the overheads
46:20are very
46:20high
46:21so that is
46:22the problem
46:22rationalization
46:23so we
46:24have to
46:24rationalize
46:25and then
46:26fuel is
46:26the biggest
46:27issue
46:28there was
46:30a proposal
46:30about two
46:31decades back
46:32that airport
46:33authority
46:33and the
46:34airlines
46:34will get
46:35their own
46:35will import
46:36the fuel
46:36so that will
46:38lower the
46:38taxes
46:38rather than
46:39coming through
46:39the state
46:40they will
46:40get their
46:40own
46:41system
46:42of
46:42fuel
46:43so that
46:44may be
46:45looked at
46:45so there's
46:47greed on the
46:47part of the
46:48state which
46:48wants more
46:49to collect
46:50more revenue
46:50through a
46:51fuel taxes
46:52there's greed
46:53on the part
46:53of airlines
46:54which will
46:54resort to
46:54shortcuts
46:55that question
46:56to you
46:56how to
46:58make India's
46:58skies safer
46:59and more
47:00competitive
47:00is that
47:01possible
47:01or will we
47:02come back
47:03to this
47:03debate
47:03five years
47:04from now
47:04yet again
47:05so many
47:05Indian
47:06airlines
47:06have collapsed
47:07in the
47:07recent past
47:08yes I think
47:09this is
47:09practical
47:09because there
47:10is an
47:10imbalance
47:11airports
47:12make money
47:12airlines
47:13lose money
47:13now we
47:15have an
47:15economic
47:16regulator
47:16for airports
47:17but there
47:18is no
47:18economic
47:19regulator
47:19for airlines
47:20I think
47:20there is a
47:21need to
47:22look into
47:22this
47:23that why
47:24is the
47:24airports
47:25are making
47:25money
47:26but airlines
47:26are not
47:26making money
47:27because of
47:28competition
47:29yes
47:29but there
47:30are many
47:30other reasons
47:31the taxation
47:32everything
47:33which is loaded
47:34onto the
47:34airlines
47:35of course
47:35they sell
47:36their tickets
47:37after adding
47:38all these
47:38things
47:38but there
47:39is an
47:40imbalance
47:40in my
47:41view
47:41and the
47:42passengers
47:43suffer
47:43because they
47:44have to pay
47:44high
47:44but I think
47:46there is a
47:47need for a
47:48full study
47:48of the
47:49aviation
47:49sector
47:50rather than
47:51piecemeal
47:51about airlines
47:52and airports
47:52separately
47:53right
47:53Sherby do
47:55you see more
47:55players coming
47:56in or will
47:57the Indigo
47:57experience make
47:58them even
47:59more diffident
48:00you know
48:02even Rahul
48:02Bhatia himself
48:03is expanding
48:04reportedly into
48:04the hotels
48:05business of
48:06Indigo he's
48:07not necessarily
48:08only looking at
48:09the airline
48:10anymore do
48:10you see more
48:11airline players
48:12coming given
48:12the fact that
48:13across the
48:13world it's not
48:14easy to make
48:15money on
48:16airlines I just
48:17want to put
48:17some figures
48:17the world
48:18largest aviation
48:19market United
48:19States
48:20876 million
48:21passengers 5.2
48:23increase from
48:24the previous
48:24year China
48:25followed with
48:25741 million
48:27passengers growth
48:28rate at 18.7
48:30UK ranked third
48:31interestingly to
48:31261 million
48:33passengers up
48:347.3 Spain
48:35and India comes
48:37fifth handled
48:37211 passengers
48:39increasing 11.1
48:40rise so there's a
48:41percent rise so
48:42there's a increase
48:43in passengers
48:44increase in
48:44airports will
48:45there be an
48:46increase in
48:46airlines making
48:47the sector more
48:49competitive and
48:49hopefully safer
48:51Rajdeep it's
48:56it's a long
48:57shot there's a
48:58lot of structural
48:58reform necessary
48:59before that
49:00happened but
49:01let's give credit
49:02where it's due
49:02Indigo brought in
49:03a fair degree of
49:04innovation into
49:04the system and
49:05did a lot to
49:06cut costs
49:07sometimes and
49:09now as we've
49:09learnt over the
49:10years they've
49:10lost their way
49:11and including at
49:11the cost of
49:12safety but what
49:13we would need
49:13and I'm going to
49:14quote Ronald Reagan
49:15here when he
49:15said the nine
49:16most dangerous
49:16words in the
49:17English language
49:18are I am from
49:19the government
49:19and I'm here
49:20to help when
49:21we have the
49:22DGCA is the
49:23most successfully
49:24lobbied regulator
49:25in the country
49:26there's a leaf
49:27they need to
49:28take out of the
49:28book of other
49:29regulators that
49:30also look into
49:31significantly heavily
49:32regulated
49:33regulated sectors
49:34that needs to
49:35change government
49:36policy needs to
49:37change it needs
49:37to be a place
49:38where commerce
49:39happens there is
49:40regulation on
49:41norms and safety
49:42but there is not
49:43we are not if
49:44we are going to
49:44end up in this
49:45price cap mechanism
49:46etc etc that's
49:47not going to
49:48inspire confidence
49:50either for markets
49:51or for new
49:52players so long
49:53way to go and
49:54I'm afraid you
49:54may just be
49:55sitting here five
49:56years later and
49:56asking the same
49:57question now
49:58you are calling
49:58you are calling for
49:59the reform of
49:59regulator you are
50:00saying start
50:01regulator and
50:02government
50:03you have got to
50:03deregulate the
50:04regulator in a
50:05way or the
50:06regulator focuses on
50:07core issues rather
50:08than entering every
50:11little sector of the
50:12aviation business am I
50:13correct?
50:14absolutely
50:14okay I think I
50:17think we have got a
50:18sense from all of
50:19you of the
50:20challenges that lie
50:22within did it take a
50:23crisis like indigo for
50:25us to wake up to it
50:26that's the question
50:27that will be asked
50:28but sometimes in
50:29India it takes a
50:30crisis for suddenly
50:32reform to take place
50:33the aviation sector
50:34has ridden into the
50:36open skies more than
50:38two decades ago but
50:39now in many ways it's
50:41been a wake up call
50:42a reality check and
50:44that I appreciate that
50:45all my panelists I
50:46hope have given the
50:48government in a sense
50:49a reality check you're
50:50having a smile on your
50:51face Mr. Lazar what do
50:52you want to say I'll
50:53give you a 30 second
50:54what is the final
50:55words in all this
50:57turmoil I believe
50:59there's a there's a
51:00ray of sunshine and
51:01that ray of sunshine
51:02like you know Shereby
51:03just pointed out is
51:04that we can restructure
51:06our complete aviation
51:08infrastructure whether
51:09it's redoing the DGCA
51:11redoing you know the
51:12pilots and an
51:14operational structure
51:14this is a chance to
51:16take off in a clean
51:17slate and I think I
51:19hope that this
51:20ministry and the PMO
51:21and everybody looks at
51:22it because we are the
51:23fastest growing aviation
51:25market on earth we are
51:26going to be number three
51:27in the next five years
51:28and and I look forward
51:30to bright aviation you
51:31know Indigo is a game
51:33changing airline it's
51:34going to continue to
51:34grow of course we know
51:36that we want to see
51:37others so I hope and
51:38pray that we can make
51:40the right steps you know
51:41criticism is not about
51:43wanting the other guy to
51:44fail it's about wanting
51:45them to succeed within the
51:47fine and narrow that's
51:48what I want to say
51:49okay okay I think
51:51let's say let's end it
51:52there we've heard
51:52several fine voices and
51:54I appreciate each and
51:55every one of you taking
51:56the time off to join me
51:58on the show thank you so
51:59much let's hope for
52:01safer and more
52:02competitive skies in the
52:04new year thanks for
52:06watching stay well stay
52:07safe
52:08Jai Hind Namaskar that
52:10was the roundtable
52:11bye for now
52:12bye for now
52:13you
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