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The top focus of this episode of India First is the movie the world is talking about, Aditya Dhar’s new Bollywood spy thriller, 'Dhurandhar,' starring Ranveer Singh.
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00:00Good evening, there's breaking news coming in.
00:02Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the US President Donald Trump,
00:04they've just spoken and this conversation, we are told,
00:08has gone way beyond protocol and pleasantries
00:11and went straight into the future of India-US relations.
00:15Now, according to sources in the Prime Minister's office,
00:18Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the US President
00:21reviewed the entire landscape of the India-US
00:25Comprehensive Global Strategic Partnership.
00:27We are told the two expressed satisfaction
00:31at how steadily and strongly the relationship was moving forward
00:36and had advanced so far.
00:38The Prime Minister, he's taken to social media to say,
00:42and I quote, had a very warm and engaging conversation
00:45with President Trump.
00:47We reviewed the progress in our bilateral relations
00:49and discussed regional and international developments.
00:53India and the United States will continue to work together
00:56for global peace, for stability, and for prosperity.
01:01Unquote.
01:02Now, was this just a regular phone conversation
01:08or was there something more to this?
01:12We'll bring on our Foreign Affairs Editor,
01:14Geeta Mohan, in just a moment for more on this.
01:17We are told both the Prime Minister and the US President,
01:19they underlined the significance of the relationship.
01:24Now, they're thinking of, they're talking about getting back
01:27to what this relationship was when they met in February
01:30in the United States of America.
01:33So, there's a conversation about deeper collaboration
01:36on critical technologies, on energy, on defense, and on security.
01:40So, I want to take you back to the conversation
01:42the two had in February
01:43at the time of the inauguration of President Trump
01:46in Washington, D.C.
01:48They reiterated their commitment
01:49to the India-U.S. compact framework,
01:52the 21st century road map design
01:54to catalyze not just the military partnership,
01:58but also accelerate commerce
01:59and drive high-tech cooperation.
02:03I quickly want to cut across
02:04and bring in India Today's Foreign Affairs Editor,
02:07Geeta Mohan, for more on this.
02:09Geeta, are they gradually moving forward
02:13and bringing the relationship back on an even keel now?
02:19Well, Gaurav, with Donald Trump, you never know.
02:22We do know that there's a blow-hot, blow-cold relationship
02:25when it comes to the India-U.S. ties.
02:27We've seen him temper down.
02:30We've seen him engage.
02:31We've seen him have conversations in the past.
02:33And the very next day, he'd come out
02:35and announce additional tariffs
02:37or say things that upset him with regards to New Delhi.
02:42So one never knows.
02:43But if you look at the press release,
02:45it's a very detailed one
02:46where they have really talked about
02:48how to take the relationship forward.
02:51This may be certainly have to do with the fact
02:55that the visit of President Putin,
02:57which was critical and crucial,
02:59had a lot of substance, but also optics.
03:02And optics do matter to President Trump.
03:05So, yes, maybe he's having a conversation,
03:08trying to ensure that all the problems and concerns
03:12that lawmakers have raised in the congressional hearing
03:15is something that, and fears are allayed.
03:18But that does not really mean that this will translate
03:20into a forward momentum towards a positive side.
03:26In fact, that's the question I wanted to come to.
03:30Are we moving in the direction of a trade deal?
03:33We were told it was in the works since July.
03:37There was forward movement.
03:38Many a time we were said that this was the best that was possible.
03:41It's lying on its table.
03:43So, how close are we, if at all, to a trade deal?
03:48Well, you never know,
03:49because we have the USTR delegation that was in New Delhi,
03:53an informal one, not a formal conversation.
03:56But they are having talks.
03:57They are in talks.
03:58And even as they were here,
04:00the farm lobby in the United States of America
04:02raised issues with regards to rice dumping
04:05or alleged dumping by India.
04:07So, again, he spoke about how that needs to stop
04:11or there should be some kind of tariff on that.
04:14Are there going to be more retaliatory tariffs?
04:17And if so, how much, what?
04:19And this comes ahead of what both sides are looking at
04:22in terms of cracking a trade deal.
04:25So, let's wait and see.
04:27We are not holding our breath over here for a trade deal.
04:29But a trade deal will certainly iron out
04:32a lot of problems between India and US
04:34that exist right now only because...
04:37There is tremendous criticism.
04:38...of the issues with protectionism
04:41and certainly the tariffs that Trump has a problem with.
04:46Okay.
04:46There is tremendous criticism of Donald Trump
04:49in the United States of America
04:50in that congressional hearing
04:51where many, many members of parliament
04:54in the United States and members of the Congress,
04:56they blamed him for pushing India closer
04:59towards Russia and China.
05:03Geetha, keep tracking that story.
05:04I will come back to you for more.
05:05I want to now return to our top story of the day.
05:09So, there's a massive storm over a Bollywood film, Dhurandar.
05:14Dhurandar loosely translates into master of the game
05:18or a past master.
05:20And the storm is there both in India and in Pakistan.
05:23There are some who are very upset with the film,
05:25even in India, calling it massive propaganda for the ruling government
05:29and calling it blatantly anti-Pakistan.
05:32Some going to the extent of claiming it gaslights even Indian Muslims.
05:35But does it?
05:36Critics are upset that they are being criticized for being critical of the film.
05:40So, what's this thermonuclear outrage over Dhurandar all about?
05:44That's our Top Focus story.
05:46The movie, the world is talking about.
06:04Dhurandar takes silver screens by storm.
06:07The movie, the work of the film,
06:10it doesn't make the difference of the film.
06:13Look!
06:14Dhurandar!
06:15Bawal over Bollywood's blockbuster.
06:18A few years ago, one Satan and one sin,
06:21one man, one man.
06:24If I'm a saddha kawazi kina...
06:28Critics term it anti-Muslim, misogynist.
06:37Hrithik disagrees with movies politics.
06:43Why the sympathy for Pakistan? Ask fans.
06:49The Dhurandar debate.
06:50That is our big focus on India.
06:57We have a full house.
06:58We have all sides and all perspectives on this big story.
07:02Joining me on Dhurandar are Arfa Khanam Sherwani,
07:06a senior journalist.
07:07Saira Shah Haleem is a political activist and a political leader and an analyst.
07:13Zeba Zoraya is an advocate and columnist.
07:16Meghna Pant is an author.
07:18Joining us on the show in a moment, we'll also be joined by Advaita Kala.
07:23She's written scripts for films.
07:25But Arfa, let me begin by asking you, welcome Arfa.
07:28This Ranveer Singh starrer is close to 200 crore and counting already.
07:35It's drawing large audiences to theatres.
07:38What makes you unhappy about this film?
07:41One of your comments seems to indicate that this is an injection,
07:46a dose of poison that's being injected in society.
07:50Zeher Ka Naya injection or words to that effect.
07:53Explain that Arfa.
07:55This definitely is Zeher Ka Naya injection because as you said,
07:59the film is doing good business, which explains itself that hate and bigotry and majoritarianism
08:05an anti-Muslim sentiment when you incite, it gives you profit.
08:09So it's a profitable business.
08:11I think this film is nothing but 3.5 hours of absurd display of, I would say, intense violence,
08:22going to an extent where the whole Muslim community, it is not just about Muslims of Pakistan,
08:28it is about Muslims in general, because the Muslim symbols have been portrayed in such a manner
08:34that the whole Muslim way of life has been attacked.
08:37Not just the name, the way they treat women, the way they dress up, what they eat,
08:43how do they torture, how they live their lives.
08:46I think the aim of the film is not to target Pakistani Muslims
08:50and create some kind of an entertainment show, but it is definitely to benefit the majority,
08:58the government in power, the political party in power,
09:01which actually thrives based on, you know, division in the society.
09:07And this film, literally, I'm going to tell you, Gaurav,
09:10I have reported on Indian society for the past 25 years.
09:13This film hit me so hard.
09:15Me and my friend, we both had gone to watch this film
09:18and we were planning to have dinner after the film.
09:21Trust me, you, Gaurav, there was so much, the scale of violence, the intensity of violence.
09:26People, you know, I mean, life, you know, screen pe tani badi screen pe gale kaate jaarein.
09:31And you, it was unbearable.
09:33It was, it was impossible to tolerate.
09:35And I'm saying this as someone who's covered wars, communal violence
09:39and who's seen all kinds of absurdity and ugliness in the society.
09:44We decided not to have dinner.
09:46After 3.5 hours of watching this film, we both sat in silence.
09:50It was such a tough sit and my friend is rather upset with me
09:54because this was my decision to watch the film.
09:56She said, why did you made me suffer 3.5 hours of this whole absurdity, ugliness?
10:03So I think the filmmaker is being completely irresponsible.
10:07Does this, does this show Indian Muslims in poor light?
10:11Or does this show Pakistanis in, in poor light?
10:15You know, did you get the impression that it, it, it gaslights Indian Muslims?
10:20Gaurav, me and you are journalists.
10:22And perhaps we are able to make that clear distinction, right?
10:25We are trained to think that way.
10:27But you cannot really expect this from Aam Janita, the innocent public.
10:32I mean, look at this.
10:33Gaurav, if your, your neighbour is called Hamza or Rahman or Malik,
10:37are you not supposed to think that this is the same Hamza and same Muhammad
10:41and same Rahman that I've just watched in this film?
10:44Who's so brutal, who's so inhuman, whose way of life is questionable?
10:49So it is, you know, and everything, just leave aside the names,
10:52even the way of life, the way the film mocks every Muslim symbol.
10:57They've even talked about Khatna.
10:59And there is, there are like clear Hindi abuses, slurs on screen.
11:05I can't even watch this film, just let's say, with an 18 year old.
11:10I mean, I know it's an A rated film, but this is a completely unwatchable film
11:14for a variety of reasons.
11:16And, and not, and the last and not the least is the misogyny.
11:21It is a man's world.
11:23There are no women.
11:24Women are either, they are silent or meek or they are just supporting this,
11:28this whole, you know, whatever was going on on the screen.
11:32Zeba, let me get Zeba to, to respond.
11:36Zeba, the impression is that it targets Pakistan state sponsored radical Islamist terror.
11:43But Arfa believes, you know, it's targeting Muslims in general, including Indian Muslims.
11:50Do you, do you feel, do you feel the same way?
11:54Your take on, on Dhurandhar.
11:56You know, don't watch Dhurandhar if you can't handle the discomfort of truth.
12:02Because the movie isn't violent, the movie isn't, you know, violent.
12:08It's Pakistan histories.
12:10Dhurandhar is not a hate cinema.
12:13It's a memory cinema.
12:14And for once, Bollywood isn't making Indians to feel guilty for demanding security.
12:20It's asking the Pakistan's deep state to feel guilty for exporting terror.
12:25The same ecosystem that celebrated Pathan for glamorizing an ISI agent
12:31is suddenly allergic to a film that shows ISI, lyari grangs and terror proxies as they function,
12:38as they actually function.
12:40The meltdown tells you less about the film and more about
12:44who has been controlling the narrative for 30 years.
12:47Yeh film, Muslims ki khilaf nahi.
12:50It's like Pakistan ki terror industrial complex ki khilaf hai.
12:54You know, when The Wire calls it an ultra-nationalist, troll flim, accuses it.
13:00Okay, so no organizations.
13:02I'm talking to all individuals but complete your point ma'am.
13:05And go on ma'am.
13:10Can you repeat? I cannot.
13:12Yeah, okay.
13:13Okay, okay.
13:14No, I was just saying, just don't name any organization.
13:17That's not our intention.
13:18We only want the focus on your thoughts on Dhurandar.
13:22The film is said to be Islamophobic and anti-Muslim and I don't think it is.
13:31The film is said to fuel hate against Muslims.
13:34It is saying that you are using Islamic slogan and imaginary to be irresponsible.
13:40But the villain itself are institutions and not a religion.
13:45The film targets state-sponsored jihadism, ISI terror conclusions and criminal political
13:52in Pakistan and not an entire faith.
13:55Arpa, you want to quickly respond to Zeba before I bring in Saira, Advaita and Meghna?
13:58Arpa, you want to quickly respond?
14:00Besides, I'm saying, say whatever you want to say about ISI.
14:03I, even as a journalist, I understand that Pakistan uses terrorism as a state policy.
14:08Say whatever you want to say about ISI, their military, their government.
14:12I don't care a bit.
14:14What I'm trying to say here is that we should not reduce our nationalism, our desh-makti
14:21to just Pakistan hating.
14:23Gaurav, for heaven's sake, this nation is one of the oldest civilizations in the world.
14:28We cannot reduce our great country, our great civilization to just hating one nation.
14:34I mean, if Hindu jaag raha hai, Hindu is not just hating Pakistan.
14:38Hindu is also questioning casteism, questioning inequality, questioning the curtailment of freedom,
14:45questioning poverty in this country, questioning everything that should be questioned.
14:50Why are we really forcing ourselves through popular cinema, through popular culture
14:55to make ourselves so narrow-minded and so petty that our whole idea of a nation…
15:00But how are we narrow-minded and petty?
15:02You know, I fail to understand.
15:04Pakistan has been bleeding us from 1947.
15:07And our, a section of our film industry, they show ISI and, you know, RAW operating together as lovers.
15:15ISI has been killing us.
15:17And our film industry doesn't show the truth, or at least a section.
15:22But if some section does, Saira, why are we upset?
15:26If somebody says you don't like a film, don't watch it.
15:28How do you explain this thermonuclear outrage?
15:31See, firstly, good evening, Gaurav.
15:33I think it's not so much about nationalism.
15:36It's again about the fact that the film has been reduced to hostility here, okay?
15:42Because now it very neatly creates this binary, you know, between the pure versus the polluted, right?
15:49And here, another panellist was talking about…
15:52Sorry, you were talking about how Indian Muslims are being gaslighted, right?
15:56So, I agree with this statement here.
15:58No, I'm asking. That's what is being written.
16:00No, no. Let me finish. Gaurav, please.
16:02If you just allow me to talk.
16:04This film is actually casting minorities as perpetual suspects.
16:09I mean, look at the film.
16:10I mean, in regard of casting minorities as perpetual suspects, if people say it is artistic expression, I'm sorry.
16:19It is pure cultural conditioning.
16:21I think a cinema of this scale like Dhuranda requires a lot of responsibility on his shoulders, right?
16:29Because here, this film is fueling prejudice rather than reflection.
16:34And I think this is not the idea what Tagore stood for, right? He stood for plurality.
16:41And Dhuranda right now…
16:42Tagore didn't see Pakistan bleeding India in 2611 Mumbai terror attacks?
16:46Tagore did not see Hindus being killed in Pehelgaam by asking them to recite the ayat of Quran and if they could, they would be killed?
16:57Please, please let me complete what I'm saying because it completely kind of just derails the conversation, right?
17:04Because here, Dhuranda, it replaces that pluralism that Tagore talked about with Arnoia.
17:11And here, yes, if you're asking me whether the film is political, completely.
17:16It is completely pandering to BGP, you know, versus, you know, anti-UPA political propaganda.
17:24Because here, the line between cinema and campaign video has almost disappeared, right?
17:30Now the first narrative…
17:31Let me get Advaita to quickly respond.
17:32Let me finish, Gaurav.
17:33Let me finish, please.
17:34Okay.
17:35The first narrative…
17:36No, I just wanted to keep it conversational on one point each so that then I can come back to the second point.
17:40Gaurav, it's a request.
17:42It's a request, please.
17:43I haven't uttered a single line without being disturbed.
17:47The first narrative architecture, if you look at it, right?
17:50It mirrors the current ruling party rhetoric which is a saviour who is battling corrupt elites, ridiculing dissent, right?
17:59Glorifying unilateral power and its messaging currently sinks seamlessly with the current political machinery.
18:09Which means putting every reformer as a lone warrior against an imagined liberal establishment, right?
18:17So when cinema starts echoing propaganda tropes…
18:18Okay.
18:19Advaita wants to respond to you.
18:20Advaita wants to respond to you.
18:21Okay.
18:22Instead of critiquing them…
18:23It ceases to be art.
18:25It ceases to be art and becomes an ample fire for authority.
18:30Make another film to counter it.
18:32Let me give you the same logic that was given in the past.
18:35If Hindus were upset about some film in the past, you know, they were told,
18:39you don't like this book, write a book.
18:43But now everybody is outraging about this.
18:46I mean, I'm equally happy about the outrage.
18:49Advaita wants to come in.
18:50I just want to say one more line.
18:52You know, who else is happy about the outrage is the producer and the director of the film.
18:57Because nothing does better for film's business than this kind of collective outrage and these kind of discussions on TV where,
19:04you know, people extrapolate all kinds of things from a cinema and apply them to society at large.
19:11I mean, if journalists can have a perspective, and we're not supposed to mention particular outlets,
19:17but, you know, if you can have a perspective which is completely anti-government, completely anti-Modi,
19:23and that's a perspective that you thrive in and that you perpetuate,
19:27when journalism by definition is supposed to be neutral,
19:30then I don't think why, when filmmaking is not supposed to be neutral,
19:35but is a filmmaker's medium, and he's the primary storyteller and has a perspective,
19:40then why should you have a problem with his perspective?
19:43You may not agree with it, but being a liberal, so to speak, should mean that you permit people,
19:50creative people especially, to have a perspective just in the way journalism,
19:55a profession of so-called neutrality, has a perpetual issue with the government in par.
20:02So I find this hypocrisy on this panel completely not surprising,
20:07but kind of funny that it's so out in the open, right?
20:10Okay, Arfa wants to quickly respond before I bring in Meghna.
20:13Meghna, give me 30 seconds, Arfa wants to respond.
20:15Go ahead, Arfa.
20:16I did not know I was going to attend a journalism workshop.
20:19Journalists are never supposed to be neutral.
20:21Journalists are supposed to be anti-establishment.
20:23Okay.
20:24We are the permanent opposition.
20:27No matter what political party comes to power, we are sitting in opposition always.
20:31And journalists are supposed to be taking a position in favour of the people of India,
20:36in favour of the constitution of India, in favour of rights and freedoms of citizens.
20:40So, journalists, I never ever pretend to be a neutral journalist, first of all.
20:45And second, the problem here is…
20:46Okay, good.
20:47They permit the same liberty to a filmmaker who does not even have the luxury of conveying the news.
20:54He is operating in an ecosystem of fiction.
20:59And I think for you to sit here and extrapolate that this is anti-Muslim.
21:04I mean, there are people in Pakistan dancing to the songs.
21:06Let me complete my point.
21:07For heaven's sake.
21:08I mean, there can't be a victimhood about everything.
21:11That happens, Gaurav.
21:13And let's not get into this victimhood.
21:16Please, do not eat into my 30 seconds.
21:18Let me complete my point.
21:19Let me complete my point.
21:20Let me complete my point.
21:22Do not eat into my 30 seconds.
21:24I think you should come now.
21:25Okay.
21:26So, Advaita, you've made a point.
21:29You've made a point.
21:31This is like some big grand project.
21:34I'm coming back to you and to Meghna.
21:36She hasn't come in yet.
21:37Arfa, quickly complete your point, ma'am.
21:39Whether there are journalists or filmmakers or writers, we all have creative licence.
21:43But within a timeframe, within a given structure, you know, our creativity is designed, but
21:49there should be reasonable restriction.
21:51Even the Constitution of India defines and underlines there should be reasonable restriction.
21:56I think a film of this scale which shows such intense violence, majoritarianism, pro-government
22:02propaganda, anti-Muslim bigotry, it's dangerous.
22:05It should be criticized.
22:06It should be condemned.
22:07And all the outrage that you see on your screens and social media is completely legit.
22:13And I do not feel...
22:14Okay.
22:15We are in any way trying to...
22:16Gaurav...
22:17Gaurav...
22:18Gaurav...
22:19Gaurav...
22:20Gaurav, quick question.
22:21Yes.
22:22Gaurav, quick question.
22:23Lord Shiva crawling in the bathroom in PK with Aamir Khan starring in it.
22:30Was that offensive?
22:31Was that targeting Hindus?
22:33What was it?
22:34Tilak Dhaari is being shown in 80s films or landowners of a certain cast being shown as oppressors
22:41and rapists?
22:42Was it targeting a certain cast and a community or it was not?
22:46So let's just stop this.
22:47Okay.
22:48There is a need for some sections to continually divide people.
22:51Now they're using cinema to divide people.
22:53There is nothing to it.
22:54You like the movie, you watch it.
22:56You don't like it, don't watch it.
22:58Move on.
22:59Next Friday, there'll be a movie that's out.
23:01So I don't understand this victimhood that emerges at every occasion and has frankly become a business now.
23:08Just a little thing.
23:09I want to say Gaurav here, the most important thing here is that the film is directly playing into the politics of the day.
23:16The politics for the past 11 years, we see that it thrives on social divisions.
23:21It thrives on targeting Muslims.
23:23The filmmaker is only aiding and supporting this political party in power.
23:28Target Indian Muslims is the point that Zeba Zuraayi also asks.
23:33You know, she's saying, she says fine, it may target Pakistanis.
23:37Why would you equate Indian Muslims with Pakistani Muslims?
23:41Gaurav, let me give you an example.
23:43Just give me 30 seconds because Meghna hasn't come in.
23:45Meghna, my apologies for coming to you late.
23:47But Meghna, you know, Advaita says, don't like a film, don't watch it.
23:51What is this thermonuclear outrage all about? Meghna, your take.
23:54I think I would caution also Gaurav against conflating emotional resonance with unthinking support or also vilification of the film's politics.
24:01I think before we sharpen our pitchforks or polish our patriotic medals over Dhurandar, let's not forget that a film is not a flag.
24:08A filmmaker is not a politician, right?
24:10And stories, at times, demand that stories have to be told that refuse to stay tame.
24:15We need good stories told without fear.
24:17We need films to do well in the box office.
24:20And let Dhurandar then be what cinema strives to be.
24:23It should be a conversation starter, not a cultural war.
24:26Cinema is not a battleground.
24:27It's a medium.
24:28It may be messy.
24:29It may be glorious.
24:30It may be imperfect.
24:31But it allows to feel first and think later.
24:34And I'm finding this whole growing national habit of reducing every film.
24:39We saw this with Kashmir Files also.
24:41We are reducing every film into a binary referendum.
24:44It's either propaganda or patriotism.
24:46It's anti-national or uber-national.
24:48It's harmful and heroic.
24:49And nationalism is not automatically propaganda.
24:52Okay.
24:53Similarly, propaganda is not automatically jingoistic.
24:56So, sometimes the film is simply holding up a mirror to a version of our country.
25:01It may be stylized, heightened or disturbing.
25:03But it's worth examining nonetheless.
25:05Yes.
25:06Okay.
25:07Arfa, three points that have been made so far.
25:09Even if it targets Pakistan.
25:11Pakistan is a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror that has bled us from 1947.
25:15I'm okay with that.
25:16I'm okay with that.
25:17How does that equate anything with Indian Muslims?
25:19I'm saying I'm okay with that.
25:20Why are you extrapolating Pakistan with Indian Muslims?
25:23I'm saying my friend who's just, you know, kind of spoke just before me.
25:27Yes.
25:28As soon as Arfa completes a point, Zeba and then you, Saira.
25:31My apologies, ladies, but yes, Arfa.
25:33That is such a privileged point of view.
25:35200 million Muslims in India right now do not have the luxury of this cultural debate.
25:42The kind of hatred this film incites against Muslims in general.
25:46They do not know Pakistani Muslims.
25:48They do not know Bangladeshi Muslims.
25:50They do not know Indian Muslims.
25:52We've seen Gaurav lynchings happening because of the kind of hatred that is being incited by news channels.
25:59Now look at this at the scale of in 2000.
26:02But ma'am, there were no news channels when Hindus were being killed in Kashmir.
26:06There were no news channels that were inciting.
26:08There was, you know, when Ralev Galev Salih was happening in Kashmir, there were no news channels.
26:13So why blame news channels for something that's happening in society?
26:16Gaurav, you can debate and bring in history till the cows come home.
26:19Let's talk about 2025.
26:21What's happening in 2025?
26:23What's happening in 2025 is there is a vulnerable community.
26:26200 million Muslims whose politics of the day is attacking them.
26:30The whole social media sphere.
26:32And now besides the news channel, there is a very popular super hit film that shows them in a very poor light.
26:39That shows Pakistanis in poor light.
26:42Why would you equate Pakistanis with Indian Muslims?
26:45Is the point that Advaita is raising repeatedly.
26:48I'm saying people don't know.
26:50It's about Muslim symbols.
26:51Imagine a slogan like Allah Hu Akbar has been used so viciously.
26:56I mean, it has been completely out of context that this is a slogan.
27:01This is a Nara that should be, that the terrorists are saying.
27:05So if tomorrow a Muslim like me.
27:06But terrorists are saying it, aren't they?
27:08I'm saying if a Muslim like me, but when the film amplifies it, it has direct and negative impact.
27:14Okay, Advaita wants to quickly respond to you ma'am.
27:17Well, you know, I thought that Muslim terrorists are saying this term.
27:22So it's a fact.
27:23It's not what the majority do or use it in that context.
27:27But it does happen in life.
27:29So for it to be repeated on celluloid is not unsurprising.
27:34And I really think that, you know, this sort of paranoia.
27:37Like tomorrow if I make a film on that poor Taylor Kanahia Lal who was beheaded.
27:41You know, am I again going to be inciting and projecting and showing everybody in a bad light?
27:47Or am I telling a story which is very tragic and has a social message when it comes to tolerance?
27:52Yes, there's lynching.
27:53Yes, there have been beheadings.
27:54These are all problematic things.
27:56But to conflate everything into this victim-old narrative.
28:00Like I said through the 80s, the 90s, the 2000s, the representation of women in cinema.
28:05There's a lot to argue about when it comes to cinema.
28:08You know, it's not just one thing.
28:11Okay, Saira wants to respond to you, Advaita.
28:14And then I'll bring in Zeva.
28:15Saira.
28:16I'd like to respond to Advaita.
28:17Advaita is social responsibility.
28:19Arfa, give me a moment.
28:20Arfa, let me just quickly bring in Saira.
28:22It's my turn to talk, please.
28:23It's my turn to talk.
28:24Whatever you might say, whatever you might say, Advaita.
28:27It is very clear that Dharanda reflects the mindset that BJP has normalized so easily since the past, you know, 10-12 years.
28:36Because where strength is noise, dissent is considered betrayal and nationalism is defined by exclusion.
28:43Let's be very clear that.
28:44You know, there's a very, very clear about the fact that...
28:46So then every film of this sort should succeed.
28:51There are films that have been rejected from the audience.
28:55Advaita, I did not heckle you, let me complete. Okay?
28:59I'm not heckling you, I'm making a point.
29:01This film is not just a film.
29:04It's a cultural project by the Bharat Janda Party that rewards obedience and punishes empathy.
29:11Let us be very clear.
29:12The danger is not about taking a political stand.
29:15The issue is that when cinema becomes a megaphone for the ruling parties and security, that's where the problem lies.
29:24Zeba, is that also your take?
29:27Is this film becoming a megaphone to vilify Indian Muslims?
29:31You know, I don't care if Pakistani terrorists are being exposed, if a colony in Karachi where there are criminal gangs and we know there are criminal gangs that operated out of Karachi for decades and decades.
29:43See, I am not even allowed to talk. This is not done.
29:46See, Pakistan's worst victims of a system are Muslim.
29:50You know, a lecture, but go on. Zeba wants to come in. Zeba hasn't come in, Saira. Permit me.
29:56Yeah.
29:57Go on, Zeba.
29:58See, we are talking about Indian Muslims, but Pakistan's worst victims of their system are Muslim themselves.
30:04What about the Peshawar APC school massacre? What about the enforced displacement across Pakistan over 10,000 cases?
30:11If exposing a system that kills, disappears and brutalize Muslims by thousands is anti-Muslim, then human rights reports are Islamophobic too.
30:20And as a practicing Muslim, I don't need liberal gatekeepers to tell me what is or what isn't Islamophobic.
30:27I can tell the difference between criticizing Pakistan's deep state or hating my own community.
30:33You're talking about gore and, you know, that the movie is too gory and desensitizing.
30:38People clenching their pearls at Dhurandar's violence, but the film is still less brutal than the reality.
30:45Pakistan's own history, when you read it like a script, there's no Indian director would dare to shoot it.
30:52School children massacred in Peshawar, Shia pilgrims being bombed, Sufi shines and churches being attacked, what not.
31:00Baloch activists disappeared and dumped in mass graves.
31:04The people of Balochistan fighting for their independence.
31:06Yeah, and Dhurandar comprises of 30 years of architecture of violence into, you know, 3.5 hours.
31:13You are saying that you cannot do a dinner after.
31:15Interesting. Arfa, 30 seconds. Let me bring in Meghna and then you respond to Meghna.
31:18Meghna, you want to come in, my apologies for the delay. Go on Meghna.
31:21The film has Muslim antagonists, yes. But does that make the film anti-Muslim? No.
31:34The film also goes out of its way to show Muslim victims, not just perpetrators.
31:39It shows Muslim characters who are patriotic, the political machinery that recruits and rewatches and weaponizes.
31:45And the Indian state's own failure, so the human cause of radicalization.
31:49And look at Aditya Thar, the filmmaker's past body of work, right?
31:53For Uri for example, he's showing, he's obsessed with nationhood.
31:57He's not obsessed with demonizing a community.
32:00So I think when critics or anybody else is calling it anti-Muslim,
32:04what they're doing is I think reacting to their own discomfort that nationalism, when told cinematically,
32:09feels like propaganda to them. Nationalism is not a slur.
32:12Patriotism is not hate speech.
32:14And Dhar is not making a documentary for a think tank.
32:16He's making a mainstream spy thriller that's grounded in some reality.
32:20So let's not conflate these issues.
32:23Arfa wants to quickly come in and respond because Arfa, permit me one more question.
32:28So there are filmmakers in the Indian film industry who have for whatever they may think,
32:34they show a very glamorous ISI agent working with a rock star looking raw agent
32:39and they're lovers and they operate together. That's one film.
32:42There's another one that shows, you know, an Indian army officer as a terrorist.
32:47A Hindu officer is shown as a terrorist and that Pakistanis want peace.
32:51And then they work towards peace and all of that.
32:54That is all okay. That does not vilify Hindus.
32:57That does not do anything bad to Hindus.
32:59But if Dhurandar comes, there is this thermonuclear outrage.
33:03Arfa, the question Advaita is asking or Meghna, isn't this blatant double standards?
33:10Gaurav, there is a very fine line between exercising the right to a creative license
33:18and trying to actively incite hatred and violence.
33:21The films that you have mentioned about, we may have our disagreements.
33:25I think those films were very unreal to say the least.
33:28But leave that aside. If they're not real lives at stake, our society is at a breaking point.
33:34There is a mighty government. There is a majoritarian sentiment that goes against...
33:38But the society is not a breaking point.
33:40Where is the society a breaking point?
33:42I am saying this as a journalist and as somebody...
33:44We're a strong vibrant democracy.
33:46I am saying this as a journalist who has reported on India for 25 years.
33:50And as someone who is myself a Muslim.
33:53I have seen it by myself that our society is at a breaking point.
33:57Where there is a huge deep mistrust being fuelled by everything that the government supports.
34:04And now comes this super hit film which is so well made.
34:07I also want to congratulate the filmmakers for making this excellent film.
34:11I only wish if they had used this power and creativity and this art.
34:17To create something beautiful that brought people together.
34:20Instead of just you know already vulnerable people just attacking them.
34:24And making their lives more vulnerable.
34:28For heaven's sake I am just saying and pleading on your screens.
34:32Please do not.
34:33And please use your creative license to create something beautiful.
34:36That brings people together.
34:38That challenges people in power.
34:40That strengthens our democracy.
34:42That strengthens our constitution.
34:43And all of us can live in harmony.
34:44Okay, Advaita wants to respond.
34:45And all of us can live in harmony.
34:46You know it's a very impassioned...
34:48Advaita, yes go on ma'am.
34:50Very sweet.
34:51I mean it's strange to think that Bollywood has the ability to radicalize people.
34:56And not radicalization itself.
34:58Which has led to terrible attacks on Indian soil.
35:01Against Indian citizens.
35:02Against Indian citizens.
35:03As recently as I was.
35:04In the middle of a crowded street.
35:06It's a radicalized individual.
35:08It's a mistake.
35:11So that doesn't...
35:12It's not a problem.
35:13The potential for thoughts for change.
35:16Because of a movie.
35:18Is so great.
35:20That we must appeal to every good quality in human beings.
35:24No, I think we're missing...
35:25We're missing the wood for the trees.
35:27I mean what is really happening here is that there is a presence of radicalism.
35:31We have to address it.
35:32Filmmaking and films are not the medium to address that radicalism.
35:36Okay.
35:37Okay.
35:38Just as film...
35:39I don't take lessons on feminism from movies.
35:41I don't take lessons on what it means to live together from films.
35:46Right.
35:47So let's not...
35:48I'm really thankful to all of you for joining me on this part of India first on Dhurandhar.
35:53But in the days and weeks ahead perhaps we'll continue this conversation and great conversation with all of you.
35:58Many thanks for joining me.
35:59Breaking news that's coming in from Thailand on another big story we've been tracking here on India today.
36:05The manhunt for the Luthra brothers.
36:08Remember after that massive fire at the nightclub in Goa.
36:13That image that you see on your television screen.
36:15India today has got the latest picture of Saurabh and Gaurav Luthra.
36:19They're now officially in the custody of the Phuket Immigration Authority officials.
36:25So they were detained in Phuket.
36:28Their passports now stand suspended.
36:31May eventually be cancelled to just give them papers for one side return to India.
36:37Their bail plea has also been rejected.
36:39The brothers are at the centre of that devastating, devastating, terrible fire that took place at that nightclub in Goa.
36:47Sadly 25 people lost their lives and these two brothers, they fled to Phuket.
36:53They claimed it was a business meeting which was pre-decided.
36:58The police said no.
37:00After the fire they bought the tickets and they say they have evidence they will produce in a court of law.
37:06Now they are being brought back to India soon.
37:09Their lawyers had argued that now they fear for their safety in India.
37:13And they insisted that the trip to Thailand was work related and they were not escaping the law in India.
37:19But the agencies, they're closing in.
37:22They have an Interpol blue corner notice.
37:25Passports have been cancelled.
37:27Now we will continue to report how quickly they are sent back to India.
37:33That is all I have for you on this special broadcast of India First.
37:36Many thanks for watching.
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