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00:00if we are constantly checking on our relationships are we truly enjoying our relationships I do not
00:08mean you have to check on somebody or inquire like a policeman don't be blind to it that's
00:15what I mean so if you use Gen Z lingo these can be the red flags when you are so full of desire
00:21then red flags turn green you don't want to admit that there are obvious red flags in the
00:27relationship because you're looking forward to the next date or to the next sexual encounter people
00:33speak over phone or in they sit in front of each other for hours at a stretch yet they would never
00:39even touch some important points to discuss some questions are deliberately avoided the part that
00:47hormones play in defining our relationships or the way we will proceed with a certain person in our
00:53life if I'm looking at the other as someone to lean upon as someone to share my my nonsense with in
01:02the name of emotions and feelings then that is not a healthy sign why do you call them nonsense emotions
01:07and feelings the purpose of life lies in the process of living live with clarity love freedom as you can
01:21see I'm quoting from this fantastic book by Acharya Prasanth truth without apology welcome to this
01:28special feature on NDTV I am Preeti Dahiya and Acharya Prasanji is right now sitting with me for another
01:34wonderful round of conversation that we've been having around this book and we want to expand further
01:40on several topics that we've not managed to cover before this of course Acharya Ji has already to his name
01:45more than 160 titles and this comes as a fresh one from his you know long line of books and the topics that
01:53you've been writing on so Acharya Ji how this is truth without apology how it's a mirror really to all of us for
02:01our day to day lives I want you to tell the listener right now the topic on which you paid like the maximum amount of
02:09effort and the words really flew without a lot of effort because it was so close to your heart and
02:16very crucial observations have been poured into it love that's a topic mm-hmm was it difficult to write
02:29or it just was a free flow of words it's difficult because it is a free flow and it's a free flow of the
02:41flooded mountain river type mm-hmm so the challenge is to contain it channelize it and make it useful rather
02:55than scary mm-hmm so it's the biggest force it's the most powerful thing it's the very essence of life and one
03:12doesn't want to hold himself back on it equally one wants the the book to remain relevant to the general reader and
03:24and useful and relatable mm-hmm so something as important as pure as sacred as love had then to be somewhat
03:40circumscribed so that's where the challenge was it had to be contained but not diluted
03:50it had to be channelized but not impeded
03:56well you know you know what I was keen on discussing the chapter related to society and the norms
04:07that you have touched upon but now that the chapter that's closest to your heart is something that we know they are related by the way what the society does and what the society does to love yeah
04:18so that's very interesting because now we are going to have this discussion today on this topic of relationships the great illusion and this comes around page 121 the the chapter is here they start with the concept of loneliness being the first teacher is it important to first understand yourself as a lonely being and then seek love is that what you're trying to say what is the concept to
04:36of loneliness being the first teacher. Is it important to first understand yourself as a lonely
04:44being and then seek love? Is that what you are trying to say? What is the concept here?
04:48Because that's the default state anyway. What else can you start from? We are always lonely.
04:55In the sense, we always want stuff. There is some object, some person, some place, some idea.
05:03Always beckoning, alluring, presenting itself as important. So, we are lonely. We want to
05:15couple ourselves with something. We want to form a bond. We want to, in fact, not just get
05:22attached, we want to be identified. So, that is there. And one has to start from there
05:29because that's the default state of each human being. What is this inner condition that asks
05:36for company? Right? And where did this condition come from? Right? How do I know that I must
05:48have this thing or that thing? From where did I get that idea or that feeling?
05:55I could just sweep it all away by calling it natural. I could say it is human nature. It
06:03is very natural to ask for company or to ask for objects or to ask for this or that. It
06:11is very natural. But that puts an end to all inquiry. Is that really natural? Or have we
06:17absorbed it from somewhere that life is incomplete without this or that? And in fact, it is this
06:25idea that is causing the incompletion? Maybe incompletion is not a natural state, but an idea that we
06:37have absorbed. And that idea is absorbed since the very beginning. So, it becomes our default
06:42state. Default. All pervasive, very common, very usual, but still not natural. Not natural
06:51because it is something we have taken upon us. It is like clothes we are wearing. Right? So, one
06:58starts from there. Why do I think if I get that house, that car or that man or that woman, then
07:05I will be no more lonely? Right? Isn't loneliness a concept then? The way I put it is, loneliness
07:13is a crowd within. Yeah. That's the second chapter in this. Yeah. Loneliness is a lot of noises within,
07:20a lot of voices within, that are constantly telling you, you are lonely. Yeah. And none of those voices
07:29is your own. You are not there. It's a crowd in there. Right? And that's what loneliness is. And that's why
07:37any attempt to get rid of loneliness, by coupling with this, that, person, object, whatever, will
07:50not succeed. So, can we say that the starting point of any relationship is the start of the fact that
07:59love being lonely. You have to accept that I'm okay with being just me. And then you start building your
08:07relationships. Are you asking about how it ought to be or how it usually is? No, no. How it should
08:12be. Because how it usually is, is the mirror in this book. We've been reading this. So, I'm just
08:17trying to put things in context that, what is the starting point of a relationship? First, I need to have a
08:22relationship with myself. Yeah. Then only I can have a healthy relationship with another being. Yes.
08:26Yes. There can be no clear blueprint or prototype for how a healthy relationship should begin. But
08:36there are very, very visible indicators pointing towards an unhealthy relationship. If I'm looking
08:43at the other as some kind of a crutch or some kind of stuff to plug my inner hollow.
08:55That is not a healthy sign. If I'm looking at the other as someone to lean upon, as someone to share my
09:05nonsense with in the name of emotions and feelings, then that is not a healthy sign.
09:11Why do you call them nonsense, emotions and feelings? Because they don't make sense even to ourselves.
09:17Do your emotions make sense to you? Are your emotions really yours? Take away a few hormones and none of them will remain.
09:27How are they yours? Do your emotions arise with your permission? They don't. How are they really yours? Since they don't make sense even to the emotional one, it's proper to call them nonsense.
09:39But that chemical locha is happening in my body. Yes. But is your body really yours? Does it take your permission to do its stuff?
09:47I mean, I don't have a control over them. Yes. But then I identify with it. I say my body. How is it even my body? I mean, it's a thing of physical nature.
09:57A rose like a wave will fall like a wave and it remains to be questioned. To what extent can I afford to be identified with it?
10:07I have to say it's easier said than done. It's easier read than implemented for a person who is covering a journey.
10:16Nobody has to implement it. This book or any kind of wisdom never demands implementation. All it asks for is understanding.
10:26If you have understood, implementation happens in its own little ways, very subtle ways, without being forced, without being arranged, without being planned.
10:37It just happens. You don't have to rush yourself or push yourself into it. It will happen. Don't worry about implementation.
10:44The question rather is, do we understand?
10:49Okay, so when we dive further into this chapter, we go through various emotions which are nonsensical to a philosopher's mind.
11:00But for a common person, we are suffering at the hands of those relations almost and emotions on a daily basis.
11:06We talk about the sense of insecurity that one person feels when he or she is in a relationship with another person.
11:16There are two ways of looking at insecurity. One is so much of affection that you feel protective about that person.
11:25And you want that person to be with you all your life and you know, until death do us a part. And the other is that he or she is so insecure that there is lack of trust.
11:36So how do we compile these two? And insecurity again is a negative word. It's not seen positively. But it's part of every relationship, isn't it?
11:46Yeah, it's part of relationship because we are who we are as long as we remain ignorant. We will remain insecure about the other.
11:55And that is a lot of violence towards the other. Please understand. It's not that we love the other so much that the thought of losing the other makes us insecure.
12:10It's just that a lot of our comforts and conveniences and identities, they depend on the other. Therefore, we want to hold the other. We want to clutch the other. Like a thing useful. If something is useful to you, you don't want to let go of it, do you?
12:38That's what possessiveness is. That's what possessiveness is. That's what insecurity about that thing is. The more that thing is useful to you, the more that thing panders to your self-interest, the more closely you will want to guard it.
12:54Thicker will be the vault you put it in. And that is often touted as love. It is not. It is just your own selfish interests.
13:05Taking upon a holy name, which is very misleading. Most of that which we call as love, is actually just self-interest. Real love is possible only when you know that the other cannot bring anything to you.
13:29You relate to the other to share, not to gain. And then that can be rightfully called as love.
13:38So that's where we, you know, we compare the two things. Is it valuable or merely vulnerable? Is love making us vulnerable? Or is it a valuable thing in our life that we want to live with?
13:50Yes. First of all, there has to be value within you. And then you can share it with the other. That you can call as love. On the other hand, all that you carry within is hurts and wounds born out of ignorance.
14:06Then there is just vulnerability. And even if you relate to the other, all you will be sharing is wounds. And see, just because you are gripping the other tightly, that does not mean there is love or affection. Right?
14:24Even the street vegetable vendor would not tolerate a stray animal coming and picking on his veggies. That does not mean there is love. Just that the vendor expected some gain out of selling those fruits or vegetables.
14:46And now he seems to be losing what he desired of. So, he is angry. That does not mean that there is any love. Love, first of all, is a very internal thing. Very individual thing. It is not a thing between two people.
15:08First of all, first of all, first of all, is a thing between you and yourself. First of all, love is your attraction towards your own inner purity. And then that purity shines through in all your relationships. That is secondary love.
15:29But for that secondary love to be great, to be lovely, to be lovely, first of all, the primary thing must be set all right. It would sound strange. I know, and I can gather from your expression.
15:44But, but love is first of all, a thing within each person. I, I ought to have a taste for the inner sky, for purity, for not being little or confined or scared. I don't want to be all that. And that is love.
16:08I love myself so much, that I cannot allow myself to lead a petty life. Do you get a sense of what I am trying to say? That is love. You can also relate it to self-respect. You can relate it to fulfilling your potential.
16:26So that, that point really gets me to think that the nature of love is also to evolve. A person who is evolving can perhaps admit to the nature of evolving love, which is changing through different stages of life with the other person as well.
16:44Yes, of course. Inwardly, one is on a journey. Hopefully, on an upward journey. Not to come down. Not to come down. Inwardly, one is continuously becoming better and that is the purpose of life.
17:01And if one is related to the other, that upwardness, that newly gained height would obviously be shared. And the nature of relationship must accommodate that, not just accommodate that, celebrate that.
17:17I have become better. I am no more the person you once related to. Please celebrate that, instead of complaining, instead of saying, you have changed, you are no more the same person.
17:29Yes, I am no more the same person. I am a better one now. Cherish it. That must be there. And when that is there, then you know you have a nice relationship at hand.
17:39On the other hand, if the other starts feeling insecure, why are you getting better? Why are you changing? Why are you expanding your horizons? Why are you travelling more?
17:48Why are you earning more? Why are you reading more? Why are you getting wiser and deeper? Why are you becoming less afraid? Right?
17:57Why is your inner landscape becoming cleaner? No, no, no, I don't like all that. You remain the 18 year old that I once proposed to.
18:06You must remain that. You must remain that college kid. Otherwise, I'll accuse you of disloyalty and infidelity. You have changed.
18:14No, no, this is sickness. Yeah. In fact, I was coming to this point because in our daily, you know, observations around us also,
18:21we see, especially in husband wife relationships, two people must have fallen in love in their early 20s.
18:26They got married and now they are in their mid 40s or whatever. And both keep on accusing each other of being a changed person.
18:32And that's how that has affected their family life or whatever. Something as simple as that, as a man starting to going to gym,
18:40the woman becomes insecure. Whom are you trying to impress?
18:42Right. I'm the same person. Why are you changing yourself? Right.
18:45Right. But perhaps the guy is just trying to be more healthy and, you know, evolving. So, what advice would you give Acharya Ji to a couple in a situation like that,
18:55that fell in love when they were in college, are in their mid 40s now? Accompany him to the gym.
18:59Yeah. Evolve together? Evolve together or what? And if the other one doesn't want you to go to the gym, you must still keep going to the gym.
19:11Find your own time. Find your own time and ultimately, you see, you are born alone, you die alone. Your first accountability is towards yourself.
19:23All your relationship exists because of you. Right. You are at the center of all your relationship. So, take care of yourself. Be good to yourself.
19:36Only when there is light within, can it radiate outwards. If you extinguish the light within, there is no way you can be of any use to others.
19:48And this was, by the way, was a new one even for me. Why are you going to the gym? Who are you trying to impress?
19:58No, but this is a very common complaint. Somebody just takes up a sport. These days, pickleball has become very interesting.
20:05Golf has become an interesting sport. And, you know, especially men, I think it's their way of unwinding.
20:11They take to a sport and women who don't have any other outlet, who was used to going out on dinner dates on weekends,
20:18suddenly finds that the husband is busy playing golf. So, this brings a lot of friction in relationships.
20:24The very purpose of love is to help the other rise. Right? Instead, if love is of a type that gets scared on seeing the other rise,
20:36then it was never love in the first place.
20:42But that's also a very fabric of the society. I'm talking about the Indian context, where a lot of relationships are built on arranged basis,
20:51where people tried to fall in love, they showed everyone that they are in love, they started a family together.
20:57But after, let's say, 5, 10, 15 years, that starts unwinding?
21:03Must be really difficult to bear, no? I just shudder at the even thought of it.
21:14Must be very difficult to bear. But I'm going to connect that to our society.
21:18All the pretence starts falling through. I'm going to connect that to our society.
21:21You know, we've been quoting numbers about the fact that India is one of the countries which has the lowest divorce rates.
21:27Is that something to be proud of or something to worry about?
21:33Neither. You see, if first of all, the foundation of the relationship, the association, was strong,
21:43if the relationship was built from the right place, right centre, right ingredients,
21:49then it's a great thing if there is no divorce. It's a great thing.
21:53On the other hand, if the relationship was faulty even to begin with, then it cannot be a great thing if there is no divorce.
22:05So, divorce comes later, always. The first thing is the quality of the relationship, the quality, the strength of the very foundation the relationship is built on.
22:19If the relationship is built on the right foundation, it is a thing of celebration that the relationship has been lasting and lasting,
22:28and there is no divorce, no acrimony, nothing. Wonderful!
22:32On the other hand, if the two got together on greed, on ignorance, on lust, on fear, on loneliness, on social pressure,
22:47and they are still carrying on. I do not know whether this continuity is a problem bigger than divorce.
23:00But Acharya Ji, in your observation around us, is it also true that love fades away?
23:05There was love once, and now there is none. Attraction fades away.
23:10So, the identity of the connection was wrong? Obviously. There was no love in the first place.
23:15That's what the movies have told us. This is love. Boy meets girl, girl meets boy, and the rainbows,
23:22and the scarves, and the teddy bears, and the chocolates, and that is love.
23:27So, you feel this is love. This is not love at all.
23:30That's Valentine's Day.
23:34And it must fade away, and it must be admitted that it has faded away, and there was no love.
23:42Maybe that will open the gates to love. It's never too late.
23:47And I am not talking of love of the man-woman kind necessarily.
23:50As I said, love is first of all a very individual thing.
23:53It is about you being committed to your own highest potential.
23:58That is love. Because unless I am alright, how will I relate to someone in the right way?
24:04There is a chapter on when closeness becomes a cage, in which we are talking about continuously checking on our relationships.
24:17If we have become dependent, have I turned exploitative? Have I started holding self-centered expectations?
24:23And is the other person expecting too much? If we are constantly checking on our relationships, are we truly enjoying our relationships?
24:32No, checking is not an active thing. It is a thing of passive observation.
24:40I do not mean you have to check on somebody or inquire like a policeman.
24:48But reflect.
24:49Just see. Be open to what you see. Don't close your eyes. The fact is there, out in the open.
24:59Don't be blind to it. That's what I mean. It's almost like being sensitive to your own health. Right?
25:07You must know there is something in the back that hurts. Something is here. Something is there. What's happening to my eyesight?
25:16It's like that.
25:17So if you use Gen Z lingo, these can be the red flags?
25:20Yeah, the red flags. And there are red flags. Just that desire makes us blind to them.
25:28When you are so full of desire, then red flags turn green.
25:33You don't want to admit that there are obvious red flags in the relationship because you are looking forward to the next date or to the next sexual encounter.
25:43So you don't want to admit that no, no, no, no. There is a deep problem here. Wait, wait, wait. Let's check. Let's question.
25:52Let's be doubly sure. And then we'll proceed. You are afraid of questioning. You are afraid of inquiring. You don't ask the right questions.
26:01People speak over phone or they sit in front of each other for hours at a stretch. Yet, they would never, never even touch some important points to discuss.
26:15Some questions are deliberately avoided. Some things, they very well know. If they are discussed, would be like, as they say, the spanner and the wheels.
26:30So say they don't, they know the no-go zone. They don't go there. They don't go there because the relationship might be troubled.
26:38And why must the relationship be sustained? Because there is a desire to fulfill. The most important questions are the ones that are never asked.
26:48Some day they will be asked. Even if you don't ask them, they will be exposed. That's the nature of life. It's an important topic.
26:58By the very fact that it is important, life will bring it up in some way or the other. How much can you avoid it?
27:06But we avoid it for the sake of temporary fulfillment of desire. It's almost like, let's see, you are a vegetarian. Right?
27:17And there is an item there in the bakery. You don't take eggs. But it looks so tempting.
27:25That you don't want to check with the seller whether it has eggs. You know the question is dangerous. So you would pretend, you would convince yourself there is no egg here.
27:38And you will buy it and eat it. You will not ask the very obvious question, does it have egg? You will not ask the question. That's what.
27:45In the relationship, when it's in its formative stage, the most important questions are never asked and then avoidance becomes a rule in the relationship.
27:58You don't ask me this, I won't ask you that. Let us exist on a barter basis. Give and take becomes the nature of the relationship.
28:10Let's skip to the chapter on the part that hormones play in defining our relationships or the way we will proceed with a certain person in our life.
28:22In our life. Now, when you say that this is something which is not in our control. And you know, you will definitely fall prey to it.
28:32You will be doing things which perhaps you would have avoided at an early or later age. But at a certain age, you will fall victim to it.
28:40First part is right. The second, not necessarily. You said hormones are not in our control. That's right. That's well said.
28:48The second thing you said. The second thing you said, we will definitely fall prey to it. Not necessarily. You may not control the hormones.
28:56But you have it in you to observe the play of hormones. And what is observed becomes harmless.
29:06Now you know what is happening is hormonal, chemical. Therefore, you will not fall prey to it. You don't need to control it. You just need to know.
29:15But that sort of observation doesn't come in teenagers. I mean, they are too young to even observe themselves.
29:22It's not a matter of youth. It's a matter of conditioning. Teenager is a very old person. He has already been conditioned for 10 years or more.
29:33If the fellow is 16, maybe the process of conditioning started from the age of 6. So, he is already conditioned for 10 years.
29:44In so many cases, actually, if you go and ask psychologists dealing with child psychology, they will tell you the process of conditioning starts as early as 2 months, 3 months.
29:57That's the kind of age you start getting stamped on. They come and they leave their imprints. That's what we call as conditioning.
30:13So, by the time you are 18, it's actually 17 or 18 years of a very intensive process of indoctrinization.
30:24Right? So, that's what makes it tough for the teenager. It's not as if you require to be really old to understand a few things.
30:33It's not that self-observation is something that can begin only after you are 25. Self-observation is a very very simple thing of direct honesty.
30:44You know, you have a little daughter and she can honestly admit, yes, I was jealous.
30:51It's a very obvious thing. Jealousy is a thing of hormones, is it not? Yes, I was jealous. Why did you hide the apple from your brother?
31:01I was greedy. This is self-observation. This does not demand a particular age. But when you tell her in advance, you are a bad girl, if you are envious or jealous, if you are a bad girl, then she will not admit.
31:21She will start hiding her true emotions. And when we are forced to mask our true emotions and true self, you cannot then afford to observe.
31:33And there will be a sudden eruption. Yes, obviously. I am very very scared within.
31:38I am very scared within. But the society I come from, right? It values bravedo.
31:47Bravedo. Now, will I afford to observe my covered eyes? I cannot. I cannot. Because it's been implanted in me that if I am scared, then I am not valuable.
32:05And that the society can, in fact, ostracize me. And that I must fall in my own esteem. So, that impedes observation. How can I observe something, if I am already afraid of the consequences of the observation?
32:23You are ending a chapter by putting up this question, that can there be love beyond this thing, chemistry or some sort of chemical element to it? Does the self want to ingratiate itself or dissolve itself?
32:42I want to understand these lines. It's beyond my level of understanding. Can you read out a few lines?
32:48It's this para that I am quoting, if you want to just have a look. The last para of the stage.
32:52I will start with the previous one. That is our normal human love, as objects meet objects. Such unions exist only under certain conditions. When the conditions change, the dream is over.
33:15Can there be love beyond chemistry? Does the self want to ingratiate itself or dissolve itself? Dissolution can come only when the self sees itself as needless. This seeing is at the core of all wisdom. It is self-awareness, the sine qua non for love.
33:36This is my core. How can there be space for the real thing, when the unreal keeps posing as the real? You see, the unreal cannot enter your life declaring that it is unreal.
34:01Will you ever accept lies, if lies present themselves as lies? Will you? You will not. You must have been lied to, some incident in life. How did the person succeed in lying to you?
34:19They said, they said, this is the truth. Right? So lies present themselves as truth. Someone's truth. Someone's truth. As reality, to be accepted. Yeah. And you accept them.
34:31So what we have, as per ourselves, is always the truth. Even if it is a lie, but the very fact that it has been accepted, means that we took the lie as truth.
34:45Truth. Means whatever sits within us, is for us the truth. And if it is already the truth for us, how can the real thing now enter? Because we are assuming that the real thing is already here, inside, within.
35:00So what it says is, you have to then look at what you already have, and ask, to what extent is it real? And that is self-dissolution. Why? Because all that, this sits within us. This is what we call as the self.
35:18This is what we call as the self. Now real love is waiting outside, there. But this self is not admitting real love. That's the real thing. But this self is not admitting the real thing. Why?
35:30Because it assumes that the real thing is already inside. Whereas what is inside is unreal. It was just masking as real. So how can you then admit that within? By first seeing that this is unreal.
35:46You don't have to vacate the space first. You don't have to be determined to vacate, but you have to be determined to inquire. Because it is your sanctum sanctorum.
35:57This is your sacred place. This or this, whatever. This is the most precious place you can have. And before you admit something in here, you must first check for its veracity.
36:11Right? Now we all have already maybe made a mistake and something has seeped in. Still, check for its credentials.
36:20Inquire into its reality. And then maybe something very, very real out there, waiting for us, will find a space to be welcomed.
36:34So that's the beauty of this conversation and this book. That it's not only talking about us and our expectations from others and what they do to us and etc. etc.
36:46It's about self-reflection and completing a journey within before you start a journey outside.
36:52Right. So as a parting note for this round of our conversation, let's just put this page, chapter number 18 context.
37:01Be whole before you belong. Unless you are a complete person within yourself, you will never become a worthy partner.
37:10You will, if I may say, be a clinger. And if I can be allowed to be harsh, you will be a parasite. Because if I am not whole, what am I coming to you for?
37:22To eat your food. To eat your food. My plate is not whole, so I am targeting your plate and I am calling it a relationship.
37:31You know, I have desires and you are the means to fulfill those desires. That's why I come to you and I say I am a loving person. This is not love.
37:41And because you will not admit to my desires, so I offer a bargain. I say, fine, do you two have some desires? I can fulfill your desires.
37:51And let the two of us then pair together. Won't work for long because you change, your desires change and the relationship founded on desires is bound to wither away.
38:04Right. Rajarji, once again, I'm going to leave a lot of thoughts between the two of us revolve around in this room and for the listener and the viewer to take it and understand it because understanding is the true window to wisdom.
38:18Unless you observe yourself, no one can really open your eyes. I think that's the gist of our communication. And again, I can't emphasize it enough. It's a wonderful book.
38:27Please get your hands on it and do try to read page by page and, you know, get a better understanding of who we are as humans. Thank you once again.
38:35I hope this will be a nice companion for you on your flight back. Thank you so much. Thank you.
38:41Hello, I'm Dr. Rashmi. I'm a pediatric dentist and I'm working in Chandigarh presently. And I've been listening to Acharya Ji since more than two years on YouTube. And I've joined the live sessions since one year, eight months.
39:02The major area that Acharya Ji's teachings have helped me is with my anger issues. I had a lot of anger issues, which actually had a lot of, which made a lot of problems in my personal life.
39:17But with the help of Acharya Ji's teachings, I could actually understand where my anger is coming from, what are my insecurities. And through that, I was able to, you know, handle it well.
39:30And after I joined Gita sessions, live Gita sessions, there were a lot of changes in my behavior. And looking at that, my husband also joined immediately after one month.
39:46And after we both joined, we understood that there's a new beauty in our relationship that has come, which was never experienced before, even though we had a love marriage.
39:59But so for this, I can never, the words would always short, fall short to thank Acharya Ji for. And that's it. Thank you.
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