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Martin Scorsese Presents The Saints
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00:00These are stories of the saints.
00:30Thomas Becket was consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury in 1162.
00:51This was a position second only in power to the king.
01:00But in the ceremony, there was a pivotal moment when Becket was called upon to select a random
01:07passage from the Gospels, Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree.
01:17The Gospel according to St. Matthew 2119, never shall fruit be born of thee throughout
01:26eternity, and it was forthwith cast into the fire.
01:33It was a troubling omen.
01:41The story of Thomas Becket is the story of the pitched battle between church and state
01:47in England of which institution would win ultimate power over the other.
01:58Most merciful God, forgive me for what I'm about to do.
02:05The battle over the divine right of kings lasted hundreds of years and left a long line of martyrs
02:13in its wake.
02:16Becket was the most famous.
02:21So famous that Henry VIII tried to strike his memory from every record in existence.
02:28Becket was the son of fairly prosperous, devoutly Catholic, Norman immigrants who lived in the
02:34Cheapside section of London.
02:36He was a man of great ambition, still searching for an opportunity.
02:44God?
02:45O come, Holy Spirit, and bring down from heaven a ray of thy light.
02:57Without thy influence there is nothing in man which is not weakness and guilt.
03:06O cleanse that which is sordid, bend that which is stubborn, guide that which is wandering.
03:18At this moment, the monarchy was in turmoil.
03:22When King Henry I died, his daughter Matilda staked her claim.
03:28But the Norman barons refused to accept a woman on the throne, and they backed her cousin Stephen,
03:36which led to a brutal civil war.
03:41And in the midst of all this strife, Becket had an interview with Theobald, the Archbishop
03:46of Canterbury.
03:49Have the carriers arrived?
03:53They're coming, my lord.
03:54Uh, I want to finish the letter to Chichester.
03:57Of course.
03:59That matters within your jurisdiction should come to us.
04:03Now Theobald was caught in the middle of the conflict because he'd sided with Matilda.
04:07I'm told you're eager to learn and quick to speak your mind.
04:18I cannot say, my lord, that's for others to decide.
04:21I have no time for modesty, but much need of able minds and eloquent tongues.
04:26I understand you, my lord.
04:28Even a low-born man such as yourself, if he proves useful, can improve his station through
04:34our Holy Mother Church.
04:36The carriers, my lord.
04:40Tomorrow we move to my Surrey estates.
04:42These men are for my coffers, which go wherever I go in time of war.
04:46Nothing could be left to chance.
04:48I understand.
04:49We shall see.
04:54Theobald was wealthy.
04:59He had palaces in Canterbury and Rochester and Saltwood.
05:05Homes in Sussex, Middlesex and Surrey.
05:09He collected ecclesiastical fees and tithes to the church as well as feudal dues from all
05:15the territories he controlled.
05:20To rise in the church was to have real power, but it was a constant struggle to hold on to
05:24that power.
05:26To use it not in the interest of the crown, but in the interest of promoting the teachings
05:31of Jesus in everyday life.
05:33Lord, if I had wanted the order of service to be rearranged, I would have called for it.
05:40The original order of the service is sanctified by ancient customs.
05:43I need no reminder from low-born, ignorant men who-
05:47The Archbishop is well aware of the venerable nature of practice customs, which is why his
05:52very slight alteration in the order of blessings is founded in church precedent.
06:00Where can this be found?
06:02In the Fourth Decretum of Damasus.
06:08Precisely.
06:11Theobald gave some of the money he was making from surrounding church
06:41to Becket, and so Becket became rich.
06:46Now to modernize, it might look like corruption, but within the world of the church in 12th century
06:51Europe, it was more of a necessity.
06:57Theobald educated him with a tutor.
07:01He sent him to Bologna and other universities to study canon and Roman law.
07:08Maintaining the political balance between the church and the king.
07:13In defiance and compromise.
07:15This was a constant exercise for Theobald while Stephen was king.
07:21Sometimes he gave Stephen what he wanted.
07:23Sometimes he stood firm.
07:26He always walked a political tightrope.
07:28In fact, Theobald went into exile more than once.
07:36Becket made sure that he came back safely.
07:39Once you reach your stand, an oarsman will take you to Dover.
07:44John will have a man there who will supply you with a horse, then you will be escorted
07:47to Canterbury and home.
07:49I'll be recognized.
07:50I'll be recognized.
07:51There will be clothing for you.
07:52I see.
07:53You'll have to arrive at night.
07:55I can see the safest way.
07:58And it's hardly been more than three months this time.
08:00Three months?
08:01Three years?
08:02It's a terrible thing to have to flee your own country with Mother Church in your hands.
08:08I pray it may never happen to you.
08:12Come on.
08:19Eventually, Matilda's son, Henry, the Duke of Normandy, arrived in England with knights
08:29and a mercenary army to take up his mother's war for the throne and to secure his own place
08:37as the rightful heir to the throne.
08:40After nearly two decades of destructive war, neither side came out victorious.
08:48Theobald and Beckett worked both parties to negotiate a truce, careful to avoid accusations
08:54of treason.
08:57They urged King Stephen to make peace with Henry and Matilda.
09:09And as the brokers of this peace, they took the opportunity to cement the power of the
09:15church as well.
09:19Henry was really impressed by Beckett and he understood that he had played a decisive
09:27part in the negotiations.
09:29Theobald rewarded Beckett for his part in the negotiations by elevating him to the post
09:37of Archdeacon of Canterbury.
09:39Henry was killed.
09:41But within 10 months, Stephen died from a sudden illness and Henry was crown king.
09:47Henry was killed in the first and he must have been killed.
09:48Henry was killed in England with the first appearance of the king.
09:49Henry was killed in the first and the other, when he was killed in England with the
09:50king!
09:51Henry was killed in England with the most part of the king.
09:52Thomas!
09:53My lord.
09:54Walk with me, Thomas.
09:55How are you enjoying your work?
09:56Well, sir.
09:57My lord.
10:04Walk with me, Thomas.
10:09How are you enjoying your work?
10:11Well, sir, I very much like working for the Archbishop.
10:14He is a dedicated man of God.
10:17I hear you're quite the chess player.
10:21I enjoy the game.
10:24Game of strategy.
10:25Entirely.
10:26Cunning.
10:28Indeed.
10:32I'm going to give you a larger board to play on, Thomas.
10:36I like a man of strategy and cunning.
10:40I like him even better in my court.
10:52Some believe that there was a real friendship between Beckett and Henry.
10:55Others differ.
10:56Now, the truth was probably somewhere in between the kind of friendship you find in the business world.
11:04You know, mutual warmth, affection, and then it can just disappear at the drop of a hat.
11:09Henry made Beckett his lord chancellor.
11:10This was the second most powerful position in the government.
11:19But at the same time, Beckett kept his high office in the church as Archdeacon of Canterbury.
11:26It's as I expected.
11:28I laid the groundwork for this very carefully, you know.
11:37I understand you.
11:38That's the point.
11:39You, of all people, understand that the church is God's instrument on earth.
11:50That it serves as a vital check on the greed and corruption of the ground.
12:00That his independence and power must be preserved at any cost.
12:06And to do so, the church needs trustworthy eyes and ears at the king's court.
12:20Yes, of course.
12:25If you prove yourself worthy, this will be good for us.
12:32And for Holy Mother Church, her steadying influence.
12:36Thomas, I want you to remember something.
12:46Never trust the words of princes or kings.
12:52Never.
12:59Beckett lived like a king.
13:02I mean, that's what was expected of a member of the king's court,
13:05especially the Lord Chancellor, most of all.
13:09He had a fleet of ships for channel crossings,
13:12a company of knights, an army of servants, a private zoo,
13:16finest foods and wines, kitchen staff.
13:20In many ways, the lowborn Norman immigrant
13:24lived a more lavish lifestyle than Henry.
13:29So what did Beckett think?
13:31That he could actually answer to both Theobald and Henry
13:34at the same time?
13:39When Henry invaded Toulouse, it was Beckett's job as Lord Chancellor
13:44to finance the war.
13:46He levied new taxes and the burden fell on the church,
13:50on the bishops and the abbots, including Archbishop Theobald.
13:54And Beckett, as Henry's enforcer, just bled his old mentor dry.
14:03Theobald actually wrote to Beckett and pleaded with him to drop the taxes on the parishes in Canterbury.
14:08These were taxes from which Beckett himself was profiting.
14:11Beckett never even answered him.
14:16Theobald paved the way for Beckett's appointment as Lord Chancellor because he wanted an inside man.
14:23So Beckett's reversal was a terrible betrayal.
14:29You have often been called, and you ought to have answered a single summons to my side, now that I am old and ill.
14:37Indeed, it is to be feared that God may punish your tardiness if you shut your ears to the core of obedience, forgetting the benefits you have received, and despising me whom you should have carried on your shoulders in my final sickness.
14:56What did Beckett feel in his heart? Was it shame? Was he longing to explain himself to Theobald? Or did he now see himself as Henry's man?
15:13We can't know. But what we do know is that he never saw Theobald alive again.
15:20And the death of Theobald created a very convenient opportunity, a vacuum of power that Henry had to fill very quickly.
15:32Just look at me, my lord.
15:37How religious is the man that you want to appoint to that holy office?
15:41You're my man, and I want my man to be Archbishop of Canterbury.
15:45Your Majesty. Are you truly asking me to choose between the Archbishopric and the Chancellorship?
15:53Why, the opposite. Think of it, Thomas. The power of the Crown and the power of the Church, one and the same.
16:01Years of opposition and bickering, abolished with a few drops of holy oil upon your forehead. Hmm?
16:08My lord. I must reflect in solitude and prayer on this decision alone with my god.
16:18It's fine. And I'll think of the earliest possible date for your investiture.
16:23Think of it, Thomas. Please understand. It's not a request.
16:30It's not a request.
16:38I, Thomas Beckett, chosen Archbishop of the Cathedral of Canterbury and the See of Canterbury,
16:47to profess and promise all due respect and obedience to our Holy Father, Pope Alexander,
16:57and all of his successors.
17:00So help me, God, through Jesus Christ.
17:05Lord, I confess my weakness for the things of this world. The things. So many things.
17:19And I ask for your guidance. What must I do, Lord?
17:25I know that my responsibility is to Holy Mother Church, to her protection.
17:36So what must I do? I pray that you allow me to walk in your way.
17:42?
17:43Why?
17:44Why?
17:45Why?
17:46Why?
17:47Why?
17:49Why?
17:51Why?
18:22The new role of Archbishop of Canterbury seemed to increase Beckett's faith, and very quickly, his relationship with the king changed dramatically.
18:49Come in.
18:52Your Majesty, we've just received an urgent message from Canterbury.
18:58So I deliver it in a low tone.
19:02We've been told that the new Archbishop of Canterbury has just resigned as his Majesty's Chancellor.
19:07What news are you bringing me of this low-born wretch?
19:11He doesn't have the heart to tell me.
19:13I try!
19:14I am groveling on his knees and kissing my feet!
19:23Theobald had thought that placing Beckett as Lord Chancellor would give him an opportunity to have an inside man to work on the king.
19:30And the king vice versa.
19:34He thought having Beckett as his Lord Chancellor would give him a way to influence the church.
19:39They were both wrong.
19:43It started four months after Beckett was consecrated as Archbishop.
19:47A constant tug-of-war.
19:50It is not right that the will of the monarchy should interfere in ecclesiastical matters, nor that the hands of royal clerks should find themselves in church coffers.
20:06I hereby demand that you return all lands, properties, and incomes you so unlawfully seized from the church.
20:15You will redirect the receipt of all funds collected to the office of the Chancellor, your former position, which I myself now occupy as a result of your ill-considered decision to resign the post.
20:29Little by little, Henry stripped Beckett of all his lands and the fees he collected from them.
20:34This threatened Thomas, and he responded by excommunicating one of Henry's noblemen.
20:41By the authority vested in me by Almighty God, I hereby issue this decree of excommunication against William of Ainsford.
20:51For grave offences committed against the laws and doctrines of our Holy Mother Church, and for persistently refusing to repent and amend his ways despite repeated admonitions and warnings,
21:03he is hereby cut off from the body of the faithful, cut off from the sanctity of the church, and deprived of all spiritual privileges and benefits thereof.
21:15Excommunication.
21:17To be excommunicated meant to be cast out of the church.
21:21You became an exile in your own world.
21:23That ruthlessness Beckett displayed when he was Lord Chancellor, now was turned on the king.
21:33Excommunication was Beckett's most powerful weapon.
21:36And he could even use it against Henry.
21:40Stripping him of his right to rule.
21:42He did what?
21:44He did what?
21:46Am I not a patient man?
21:48Have I not given him grace?
21:50Now I have no more love for him!
21:52At the time, if a member of the clergy committed any crime, from theft to murder, he was tried and punished by the ecclesiastical court, the church court, and kept protected from the king's court, the king's justice.
22:08When a priest committed murder and rape, the power struggle between Thomas and Henry escalated even more.
22:15A priest who murders a man in his own home so that he could freely ravage that man's daughter in a bed of hay, and he is entitled to protection from the royal courts?
22:26He's punished, of course.
22:27Deheaded and debowled is what he deserves.
22:29The church does not mete out corporal punishment, as you know.
22:32Lest him that...
22:33Don't you quote canon law to me!
22:36You think nothing of excommunicating my nobles when your murderous priest is exempt from the highest law of the land, the crown!
22:44Again, sire.
22:45He was treated with the highest severity that canon law dictates.
22:49By God's eyes, I'll have that man hanging from my gallows with Fortnite!
22:52Not as long as the law of the church stands, and my bishops are behind...
22:55My bishops!
23:04These are men ordained by God, and they will be judged by God, alone, through the instrument of the church.
23:12Where is this in canon law?
23:14From a greater authority than canon law.
23:18These are the words of St. Jerome.
23:19A mere man should not exact a two-fold vengeance for one single fault, when God, judge of all men, as it is written, judges no one twice for the same offense.
23:31By God's eyes, you mete out a slap on the wrist, and God says, we cannot punish him again?
23:37It is our desire to heed your will in all things, my good Lord, worshipfully.
23:40If it does not go against that which is right, if it obstructs the will of God and the laws and dignity of our holy church, we won't dare give our assent to it.
23:54On this day, I put the question to you all, and directly to you, Archbishop, and the question is a simple one.
24:02Will you obey my ancestral customs?
24:05The answer, my lord, is yes, in every way, salvo ordine nostro.
24:13Salvo ordine nostro.
24:16With the exception of our order.
24:19Meaning that Beckett would uphold Henry's ancestral customs only when they didn't contradict canon law, church law.
24:29This was an escalation.
24:32It's defiance of the king right in public.
24:35There's poison lurking in that sophist invention of a phrase.
24:39When we meet next, you will agree outright and expressly to my ancestral customs.
24:48Just like Theobald, Beckett had to walk that political tide rope.
24:53And more than once, he was forced to contradict himself to hedge his bets.
24:58And this angered many of his bishops.
24:59Finally, the pope instructed Beckett to just accept Henry's demands.
25:09But Henry wanted to make a public show of it.
25:11My lord, I freely consent to all of your demands.
25:19And I declare that I will keep all the customs of the realm in all good faith.
25:26And now I ask the same of each one of you down the line.
25:29My lord, the bishop of Winchester, step forward, please.
25:31I consent.
25:35I consent.
25:44Enter.
25:44The king took everything to a new level.
25:48He put it all in writing.
25:51Henry added provisions that they had never discussed.
25:55One, he put the power of prosecuting crimes committed by the clergy into the hands of the
26:00royal courts, the king's court.
26:02Two, he took the threat of excommunication off the table.
26:07And three, and worst of all, he stripped Beckett of his property and he charged him with fraud
26:12and embezzlement during his tenure as Lord Chancellor.
26:18Like Theobald, Beckett went into exile in France.
26:24But a much lengthier exile.
26:26He left all the worldly corruption and backstabbing behind.
26:34He lived in a monastery where his existence became more and more ascetic and his faith in God grew.
26:46Henry and Beckett met twice during his exile of six years.
26:50Both times, Henry needed something from Beckett, and Beckett wanted to pave the way for his return to England.
26:59And both times, it ended in a stalemate.
27:03It's good to see you, Thomas.
27:06Your Majesty.
27:09You ready to come home?
27:11I am, my lord.
27:12I want to be back with my people.
27:15You can.
27:16You must understand, it's easy.
27:22It's entirely up to you.
27:25It's also up to you.
27:29Thomas.
27:31Why is it you won't just do what I want?
27:34I cannot, my lord.
27:36I must not.
27:37I have an obligation to protect Holy Mother Church, for she is the dwelling place of God.
27:48Mother Church is the dwelling place of your power, and you're using it against me.
27:52All the power God grants us we use for the good of the realm.
27:56Your Majesty.
27:57After six years in exile, with the king's permission, Beckett finally returned to Canterbury.
28:19God Almighty, I offer my thanks and undying devotion for allowing my safe return to my beloved country.
28:32And my beloved church, with whose care you have entrusted me.
28:37He was welcomed as a hero by his monks and by the local citizens.
28:59Because no matter how inconsistent his behavior, he had stood up for the church against a power-hungry king.
29:09And then, the power struggle started up again.
29:14A man who has eaten my bread.
29:17Who came to my court, poor, a low-born clerk.
29:20And I, I have raised him high, and now he draws up his heel to kick me in the teeth.
29:25He has shamed my king.
29:28He has shamed my realm.
29:31And the grief goes to my heart.
29:33And none of you have avenged me.
29:40They were knights on the fringes of Henry's court.
29:43And they were out to prove themselves to the king.
29:55Where is the archbishop?
30:03Here I am.
30:04Go to the cloisters.
30:06I'm not running.
30:09May God's will be done.
30:13The king has tried to keep the peace.
30:16You have excommunicated his bishops.
30:20And now you're trying to take the crown away from his son.
30:23Lies.
30:23I tried to exalt his crown, not take it.
30:27God's wounds.
30:28How long must we bear this?
30:29And in the lord's battle, I will fight hand to hand.
30:33Come.
30:34Answer before the king.
30:36I will do no such thing.
30:38I warn you.
30:39You're no longer under his protection.
30:42I am under God's protection.
30:46Come out of this church.
30:50If you're going to kill me, you're going to do it here.
30:52Come out of this church!
30:55You have no business to touch me!
30:57You pimped!
31:01Hit him!
31:02Hit him!
31:03Do it here!
31:04I think I'm ready for death.
31:17The knights were forced to murder him in the cathedral.
31:45Beckett strengthened the power of the church by forcing Henry's men to violate its sanctity.
31:58It was said that Beckett's blood had miraculous properties.
32:02His relics were carefully guarded, and he was buried quickly in a stone crypt to prevent Henry and his followers from seizing and destroying the body.
32:18Beckett's shrine became one of the most famous holy sites in Europe.
32:21And within three years of his death, he was canonized by Pope Alexander.
32:32Legions of pilgrims from all over Europe made their way to Canterbury.
32:36Henry recognized the importance of joining the cult of the martyred saint, so he allowed himself to receive a public, though mostly symbolic, flogging at the hands of Beckett's monks.
32:54In the struggle for power between the king and his archbishop, Beckett had the last word.
33:06But the war between church and state went on for centuries.
33:09Three hundred and fifty years after Beckett's death, Henry VIII, who was bent on destroying the Catholic Church in England so that he could divorce his wife and remarry, got revenge.
33:24The name and likeness of Thomas Beckett was removed throughout England from every missal and every prayer book.
33:37But of course, he is still remembered, and his saint's day is still celebrated.
33:47Beckett lived in a time when it would have been virtually impossible at the highest levels of the church
33:53to not be caught up in politics and games of power.
33:58So what does his sainthood mean?
34:02It could be as simple as this.
34:05That he was able to fully express his faith and to serve God only with his own death.
34:13In the last split second of his life,
34:17maybe he could finally see beyond all of his achievements and his possessions
34:21and beyond all the endless struggles for power between kings and priests
34:27and look right into the heart of the mystery.
34:31The big question for me, of course, always is Beckett is always presented as a man of faith, right?
34:56Being in such a secular situation, was he an opportunist at times?
35:02Ultimately, was he a true man of God?
35:04How does one balance these two separate possibilities, so to speak?
35:09The secular and, of course, the faith.
35:12Well, but it's not just secular.
35:14It's political.
35:16Political.
35:16It's about the whole episode, really, is about power and about that crush between the church and the crown.
35:26I think God uses, in a sense, Beckett's ambition for God's own purposes.
35:31At the end, he becomes ambitious for the church.
35:33My sense is that he has a conversion.
35:35You know, the weight of the office of being archbishop changes him, and he realizes who his allegiance is to.
35:42And if he was ambitious to begin with, God kind of channeled that into ambition and desire to help the church in the end.
35:49My sense is also that, you know, we have an expression called the grace of office,
35:53which is that when you're ordained or when you take on a certain ministry, God gives you this certain grace.
35:58And my sense was that he got this grace to understand that this was his role, right?
36:03That he was no longer going to be the king's pawn, so to speak, but that he had to really focus on the needs of the church.
36:09And that makes sense.
36:10To me, that makes sense.
36:11You're ordained.
36:12Pardon me.
36:12I'm sorry.
36:13You get a certain grace, and that enables you to discern in a way that you might not have discerned beforehand.
36:18But why in this episode do I have such a knee-jerk reaction?
36:23Every time they say, Holy Mother Church, I hear, like, Bank of America.
36:29I think it's intentional, Mary, because that's what we have to face.
36:33I mean, it is intentional in that the power structure was, you know, Henry,
36:39and the church was part of that major facet of the power structure.
36:44So you made sense to try to control it.
36:47Yeah, I would say two things.
36:48The church was more political back then, right?
36:51But it also still is political.
36:53It was a political force, you know, in terms of temporal power.
36:57But the idea that it's a political power now means it's, you know, it's a human organization.
37:01And I think, for me, the deeper question is, can the Holy Spirit still work through an organization that is political?
37:07You know, like the church was much more back then and still is to a certain degree.
37:11Well, that's, I guess, what I want to ask about.
37:13Why was it so much more political then?
37:16Well, I think the question would be, why is it less political now?
37:19And the idea is that it gave up a lot of the political power, gave up a lot of the land, right, in a sense.
37:25And it consciously became, tried to become less political.
37:29You know, whereas today you have...
37:30Wait a minute. You say it gave up all the land, but look at all the cathedrals in all these cities.
37:33And let's face it, we're the great real estate holder of, one of the great real estate holders of the planet.
37:39But in terms of, like, actual politics, direct, in a sense, influence into politics, like saying you should vote for this person,
37:48is something that the church tries to stay out of, which it did not, you know, way back when.
37:53Yeah.
37:54And they advocated for one king or one queen, etc.
37:58Well, it also tied up that oftentimes the local rulers would have a lot of say of who the bishops were.
38:02So at that time, the king ruled by divine right.
38:06So there was a religious aspect to the monarchy, and there was only one church at that time.
38:10This is prior to the Reformation.
38:12So it was the Catholic church and the crown.
38:15They were intertwined in godness in so many ways.
38:18And to me, the thrust of Beckett's story and of this episode is that it's understood that there's going to be a certain amount of back and forth between church and crown.
38:27But what people rise up against, beginning with Beckett himself, is when the crown makes the church its plaything and behaves willy-nilly in the way that we see in the story,
38:37that's when Beckett said, I'm going to draw a line there.
38:40Yeah, it was very kind of difficult to disentangle where the authority of the church was and where the authority of the crown was.
38:48But the thing about that is that the divine right of kings means that as a man, it's like saying you're the emperor.
38:55I am God because God speaks through me.
38:58So who is the pope then?
39:00Well, in other words, I have all the power because I have divine right.
39:04Yeah, so divine right of kings means that the king is, in a sense, God's chosen one in that particular land.
39:10But don't put yourself up there with God.
39:12That's where the line is being drawn by Beckett.
39:16That's the fight.
39:18That's the fight.
39:19But why not if you have that power as king?
39:23Why not?
39:24You know, who are you to tell me?
39:26And this extraordinary moment where Beckett is trying the man in ecclesiastical courts, who is a priest who killed the father of the woman that he rapes.
39:36Yes.
39:36And you're telling me that that's going to be ecclesiastical and we can't take care of that in the king's court?
39:42What I mean, I could go further with it in that what I say and what I believe and what I think is a divine right.
39:48In other words, God is guiding me through this.
39:51Granted, I'm benefiting from it.
39:53But God is guiding me.
39:55Who are you to tell me?
39:56Even the unlettered peasant can sense the wrongness of that.
40:00That's right.
40:01And that's why there was such a popular support for Beckett after he died.
40:04That's right.
40:05That's right.
40:05Yeah, sure, you're the king.
40:07You've got divine right.
40:08But make no mistake, nobody's above the law or nobody's on the level with God.
40:12Yeah, otherwise it literally is, you know, feudalism and slavery, basically.
40:17Well, it's always there.
40:18There's always tension between religion and the dominant powers in society.
40:22And sometimes they're fighting and sometimes they're colluding.
40:26And this is the way of the world.
40:29Well, God told me to.
40:30God told me to because he speaks through me.
40:32And I'm looking out for you.
40:34Yeah.
40:34To go to war, to do this, to that.
40:36Yeah, go to war, defend me.
40:37You defend yourselves.
40:38You defend our culture.
40:39You defend who we are because God has given me this grace and this power.
40:42As well as the kind of conflict between church and state.
40:46The Jesuits who were killed in 1989 in El Salvador were standing on the side of the poor and the government didn't like that.
40:52Right.
40:52And so it's always, I think in the story of Beckett, you see kind of an early sign of the church asserting its own authority, you know, over the state.
41:00Right.
41:00Which is something that plays out for the next couple of centuries.
41:03Yes, yes.
41:04My question ultimately, but I think I know the answer, is because he stayed in that cathedral.
41:08He hugged that pillar so that he could be killed in the church.
41:12To make that point, one could argue, well, this is his own pride that develops.
41:17Right.
41:17But to the point where he lets himself be killed by these guys in the cathedral, I don't think so.
41:22I think it's interesting between pride and knowing he's going to be killed.
41:26And he stays there.
41:27The fact that after he died, this cult of his blood kind of sprang up among the people and such that the beginning of Canterbury Tales is about making a holy pilgrimage to Canterbury.
41:41There were miracles taking place, that people were healed from the blood and that it was circulating.
41:47What amazes me is that for 800 years, people have been going on pilgrimage to that place, hoping to be changed somehow themselves.
41:55Long before I converted, my son dragged me to church to see if God's there, which I would have never gone if he hadn't dragged me.
42:05But I didn't believe in anything.
42:07I had no religious background.
42:09My parents were atheists.
42:10I never dabbled in it.
42:12I didn't have a moment with it.
42:14But the faith of the people I found very moving.
42:19So whether you're Catholic or not, or whether you believe that Beckett was holy or not, as Paul said, that for 800 years, people have been going to this place.
42:31And you think, what I think of all the hope and longing and fear that people bring to those places.
42:41Yes.
42:41And is that not holy?
42:42No, it's not holy.
43:12Let's pray.
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