- 8 hours ago
Ed Sheeran ('F1' & 'Zootopia 2'), EJAE ('KPop Demon Hunters'), Hayley Williams ('The Twits'), Michelle Zauner of Japanese Breakfast ('Materialists'), Raphael Saadiq ('Sinners') and Shaboozey ('The Long Walk') join THR in our Songwriters Roundtable.
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00:00Have you been to Power Station?
00:01Of course.
00:02I saw a ghost there.
00:03Oh, here we go.
00:04While recording Golden.
00:05It's in New York, right?
00:06Yeah, that was in the fourth floor.
00:07It was a big studio.
00:09You know the volume knob?
00:10It wasn't working.
00:11And so Sully, my engineer, came in,
00:14and I heard him open the door,
00:16like walking towards me.
00:17He's like, oh, it's actually working now.
00:19I look up, and no one's there.
00:21And, however, 0.3 milliseconds, I see this tall dude
00:25with a red flannel and blue jeans walking towards me,
00:29like really split second.
00:30You know what they call that?
00:31And I was just like, huh?
00:32You know what they call that?
00:32No, I don't.
00:33A ghostwriter.
00:59Hi, I'm Ethan Millman, welcome to the Hollywood Reporter Songwriters Roundtable.
01:17I'm honored to be beside some of the world's greatest songwriters today.
01:21I want to start with something fun and broad for all of you which is,
01:23Let's go back to the first song that you had ever written.
01:27Ed, I guess we can start with you because I actually think I know the answer to yours.
01:30This is what typical average teen, right? That was the first song you ever wrote?
01:35Yeah, I actually wrote a song about being a teenager when I wasn't a teenager.
01:38How old were you?
01:39Eleven, and it was really angsty and just like, you know, complaining about school and shit.
01:46There's a demo online. It sounds kind of like an Oasis or Nirvana outtake almost.
01:52I heard it for the first time the other day, finally. I was really surprised.
01:56It's like, you know, not what you would expect.
01:58Yeah, it was before discovering acoustic guitar. I just assumed everyone had to be in a band.
02:03So it was like, it is quite rocky. And I do listen back to that recording.
02:06It kind of makes me cringe, but in a way that's like, I know that you start somewhere.
02:11Like you listen to it and you're like, okay, that's the beginning of something.
02:14Did you feel like you had something right away then?
02:17Or like how long was before you finally had something that made you think, I can do this?
02:21Probably not until I was like 18, to be honest.
02:24But I had a dad that never told me what other people said to him about my music, if that makes sense.
02:30He was always very encouraging.
02:32And as I've got older, he's like, oh yeah, like when I played it to friends, they were like, this ain't good.
02:37But he just never told me that and just was like, keep going, keep going.
02:39So I think it helped. My confidence was built on delusion, basically.
02:44Well, it's important. I feel like, you know, the first thing, if someone says, this is horrible on the first thing you make.
02:48I mean, that's why every kid stops doing something.
02:50Yeah. I think, do you know what?
02:51I also, I was thinking about this the other day with my kids is like camera phones and videos.
02:57I remember the first gig I played in our school assembly hall.
03:01And I remember walking off stage and being like, feeling like it was like Wembley Sade and we rocked it and it sounded amazing and blah, blah, blah.
03:07I imagine if it was filmed and I listened back to it and I was like, oh, that actually sounds shit.
03:12And I think because there was no digital footprint of anything really, any like live performance or anything, I couldn't judge myself based on looking back at anything.
03:20I think that there was more, you build more confidence like that.
03:24Michelle, how about you?
03:26I was 16 and I learned GCD and I was off to the races.
03:32I think I wrote a song, I know I wrote a song about my friend that was basically a Moldy Peaches rip off and it was called BFF.
03:43Wow.
03:44How often do you go back and think about it now?
03:46I try not to.
03:49Raphael?
03:50I think maybe the first song I wrote never had a title.
03:52It just had chords and I recorded it on a four track and I think I used those chords probably for the next five songs that never had a title.
03:59So nobody never heard it and it sounded decent, but it never became a record that anybody else heard.
04:06The first song that I wrote with my band, I was like 13 or 14 and, you know, discovering a lot of loud, grungy and heavy music and was really excited because before that I grew up on like, honestly, Motown, R&B.
04:26So when I met the guys, my musical landscape sort of broadened and we wrote this song called Conspiracy in one of the guys' basement.
04:34And that song a couple of years later ended up on the first record.
04:39And I think it was just a rip off of a Thursday song.
04:42You know, we just like wanted to be heavy and have, you know, we wanted to play and drop D.
04:48I was learning to play guitar.
04:49So it was really, that song is still really special to me.
04:52It's so interesting to me because so much of the table, it's either like, yeah, something that doesn't have a title.
04:58You don't even, I mean, your earliest stuff is what got you kind of to this table everywhere you are now.
05:03I mean, it must make you look kind of differently at these early songs because, I mean, you were growing, but you already were starting so high.
05:10I don't know how much you think about that.
05:12Man, for a long time I didn't really listen to the first record at all.
05:16Like I really kind of avoided it.
05:18Maybe I was like afraid to cringe or to think that, you know, I didn't want to see where we came from.
05:24But it's actually one of the things I'm the most proud of because it's just, it's so pure.
05:30And it really reminds me of like music discovery, like the, like one of the most pivotal times in my life of discovering music.
05:38EJ?
05:39Like song I wrote technically first and there's a song I wrote professionally first.
05:44Technically it was for class and we had a deadline, we had to write Christmas song.
05:48It was so bad.
05:50But I didn't know I'd be a songwriter.
05:51It was really random songwriting for me, but that was in college.
05:54It was a song called, not a Merry Christmas without you.
05:59It was literally like a Justin Bieber Christmas songwriter.
06:02I'm so glad I never released it.
06:04At that time I was a trainee, so I was not allowed to.
06:08So like, again, I'd never thought I'd be a songwriter.
06:10And then after I got dropped by my label, the first song I wrote was when I was like 24.
06:15It was about my ex and we fought and it was my first ever song written and it was in Korean.
06:21And in like, like I had this like love-hate relationship with K-pop and it was kind of like me like,
06:28I don't know how I was like, like what I think what K-pop would sound like.
06:31And then I sang it and then it got cut.
06:33And it was like therapeutic for me because I was writing about my fight with him.
06:37It's called Hello.
06:38Wait, yeah.
06:39What is the love-hate relationship anyway?
06:41Oh, it's like, cause you know, yeah, I was a trainee in K-pop since I was 11 for like 10 years.
06:48And it was like a long process.
06:51And eventually like, you know, I graduated, I came back and I was like 22 and I was too old to debut.
06:57And I got dropped.
06:59So yeah, it felt like, you know, just like my dreams were shattered as a kid.
07:03So I had like no idea what I wanted to do.
07:05But I realized actually later in my twenties, like I'm like, oh, actually artist is not for me.
07:10Like personality does not fit for like, to be honest, like, cause I was a trainee.
07:14I saw my friend's debut and they're like famous.
07:18And I saw the ugly side of fame.
07:21So I'm like, oh, it's not that pretty.
07:23Like I like behind the scenes.
07:25And for me, like songwriting truly like brought me out of that depression during that time.
07:30And truly did save me, like literally.
07:33I mean, in your case now though, like millions and millions of people are hearing your voice every day.
07:38Yeah.
07:39You're here.
07:40I don't know how long you're going to be allowed to be behind the scenes.
07:42Like I said, I really like love behind the scenes.
07:44So this is kind of like a happy accent.
07:47Olive is happy, but, but you know, it's very interesting to be suddenly in the limelight again that I intentionally chose not to be in.
07:55So yeah, I'm just going with the flow and, you know, doing my best.
08:01Shabuzi, what's your first song?
08:03Oh man.
08:04It's so interesting for me.
08:05I think I started in hip hop really.
08:07I was so into like boom bath and New York hip hop, honestly.
08:10And I was listening to a lot of like just different producers.
08:13I was listening to a lot of like adult swim was a big thing too.
08:16So I think there was like the bumps who used to do the bumps.
08:19Flying Lotus.
08:20Flying Lotus.
08:21I was listening to a lot of that stuff.
08:22And then I discovered Easy Moby and DJ Premier.
08:25And I kind of just started ripping stuff from YouTube and just started just constructing, just rapping honestly.
08:30And what, what that did for me was like, it just made me understand tonality and, and structure and how to create these songs.
08:37And I really fell in love with like making albums and full projects because it's like the intro and then, you know, the interludes and skits.
08:45And then you can really tell a story from there.
08:47So it was a little bit of that and just like, just experimenting.
08:50I've made like punk albums.
08:51I've made, try to do jazz stuff.
08:53I've tried to do synth pop at a certain time, like eighties and, and Zeppelin.
08:58I went everywhere and then I don't know where it is when I kind of like found out that I was like, oh, this is truly where I need to be making music.
09:04When just listening to a lot of, I think I discovered like Bob Dylan and, and Muddy Waters.
09:08And just, just really just being, you know, cause I'm, I'm like, my parents are Nigerian and my dad came here and immigrated here.
09:13And he put, he listened, he showed me that Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton.
09:17And I think there's just a love I have for just American music the same way my dad had so much love for this country as much as well.
09:24I think it just passed down to me.
09:26And so I'm, I was always just experimenting.
09:29Well, I'd love to hear your jazz album.
09:31Oh yeah.
09:32Yeah.
09:33It's crazy.
09:34Yeah.
09:35I have a lot of really crazy, crazy experimental projects.
09:36I would, if you dig deep enough, you could find them.
09:38I was all over the place, man.
09:39I had a song called Jeff Gordon.
09:41That was probably like the biggest.
09:42That was your first.
09:43That was like first, like regional, regional pop and viral song.
09:47I was like SoundCloud rap.
09:48Yeah.
09:49I was going to ask, were you on SoundCloud?
09:50I was on SoundCloud.
09:51I love SoundCloud.
09:52I was a SoundCloud baby.
09:53Like SoundCloud birthed me.
09:54There was a time where Post Malone was coming out and, and Uzi and it was just, everyone was the weekend and everyone was just trying to like figure out like, damn, what's this thing?
10:02How can I incorporate this thing I love into like, what I like now, you know?
10:06It's refreshing to hear you say you were making albums.
10:08Cause like, I feel like today everyone's just like song, put it out song, put it out over and over again.
10:13Cause I feel like that's almost what is incentivized right now.
10:17Just keep feeding the machine.
10:18And it's nice to hear someone say like, let's just start making an album and not release until it's there.
10:23Bring back concept albums too.
10:25Yeah.
10:26I love a concept album.
10:27I love concept albums.
10:28It's the best.
10:29What would you guys want to do for a concept album?
10:31Ooh.
10:32Let's start.
10:33That's a great question.
10:34I want to hear it.
10:35I don't know.
10:36I've actually never been drawn to making it.
10:37I like listening to concept albums, but I don't know if like anyone would believe me trying to be someone else.
10:43I don't know.
10:44I don't know if I could sell that.
10:45Just start a band for it.
10:47Yeah.
10:48Do you know what?
10:49Yeah.
10:50I'm down for that.
10:51I'm down for that.
10:52Yeah.
10:53Start a band.
10:54So I'm sure you're asked this all the time, but how often do you know you have a hit these days?
10:59Like when's the last time you thought that and were you right?
11:02Most of the songs that I would end up putting out, I like.
11:05And when I make them, I go, this could be.
11:08But I don't know.
11:09I think like I've been quite surprised with, there's also like, you can release a song and then like five years later.
11:14I've got a song, the biggest song in my set at the moment is a song I did for Pokemon four years ago that wasn't a hit at the time.
11:21And then unbeknownst to me became a hit in sort of central Europe on radio.
11:26What did it?
11:27Was it the internet?
11:28I don't know.
11:29No, I don't know.
11:30I guess it was on the, it's the end when you finish the Pokemon game.
11:33Oh, the game.
11:34It's the end song and we put it out and it didn't really do anything.
11:38And so I never played it live.
11:40And then I was in Madrid this year and someone had a sign being like, play that song.
11:45And I played it and it was the best reaction of the night.
11:47So then I started playing on tour and now it's the best song of the gig, but it never was a hit at all.
11:52So there's also like hits that happened that aren't like, you know, like sometimes you'd be like, this song's gone diamond.
11:58Therefore it's a hit.
11:59Sometimes hits are just like, they just are, but you can't like quantify them.
12:03They just like, when you play them, it's I'm sure like you, you've definitely got a load of songs that are massive, but wouldn't, you wouldn't necessarily be able to be like, this is bigger than this.
12:12Cause also like I have songs that would be my biggest songs that react way less than those songs.
12:18Like sometimes fans don't really like the songs that have been hammered on radio the whole time.
12:22And they're almost like put off by the fact that it's so omnipresent.
12:25When do you decide what you actually even think of something that you wrote?
12:29You know, like, do you need other people to start saying you're into it or how confident are you once it's, you know, done and out like for you?
12:35I think everything that I write is going to be a hit and I'm greatly disappointed.
12:39I love that.
12:41I'm neither. I mean, I just, I wrote a song about like a Thomas Mann novel and was like, people are going to love this one.
12:46And you know, I'm always shocked when, uh, when they don't, but yeah, I don't know.
12:50I think that I, I always make music that I want to hear and I think is exciting.
12:56And so I think I'm always hoping that it's a hit and sad when it isn't.
13:01You had a few big claps for the songs that are on the docket right now between Zoo and Drive.
13:06But let's start with Drive. How do you get in the room with John Mayer?
13:09How does Dave Grohl end up on the drums? How does that session actually start?
13:12John was working out of Henson and I was having him play guitar on a song.
13:19It actually never ended up making the album. It's like a bonus on the album.
13:22He was going to do a guitar solo on it. So I've known him since 2014. I was obviously a fan as a kid.
13:27I think being a singer songwriter, most singer songwriters at some point are influenced by one of his albums.
13:33Mine was Continuum. I like, I was obsessed with that album as a kid and I met him when I was 23.
13:38And he sort of turned into a mentor of sorts. Like he's always been like super supportive,
13:43which I wouldn't say is like that common for older singer songwriters sometimes get quite threatened by newer ones coming through.
13:51And it's definitely something that has taught me to be like welcoming to new generation coming up.
13:55Anyway, he came to my gig and then we played on the Grammys together and then we collaborated on a song on Divide and we kept in touch.
14:02So every now and then I'll be like, can you play on a song or, you know, we'll just hang out or whatever.
14:08So we were in the studio and Blake, who we did the song with, had been approached by Jerry for F1.
14:16And all of us were sort of like, I don't really know what that would sound like, me singing a song for Formula One,
14:21because I'm sort of known as a acoustic guy, I guess.
14:25But John started off with a riff and then we just wrote it very quickly, sent it to them.
14:30They were like thumbs up and then it was in the movie.
14:33But it was one of those, like usually when I did the song for The Hobbit, it was the same thing where you get basically given like a brief of this is what the song needs to achieve.
14:42And it was very black and white, just very simple, like it's going to be end credits of the thing.
14:47It needs to be this kind of rock song.
14:49It needs to like incorporate his whole journey from the beginning of the film to the end.
14:53And it was pretty, pretty quick, quick to write.
14:55But it was John's riff that basically like, he's just one of the best guitarists ever.
15:00Yeah.
15:01You know what, I had a hell of a lot of fun doing this, doing this song, especially like getting Dave in the studio.
15:06Like, even at the time I was like, in what world does Dave Grohl drum on a song of mine?
15:12And it just, it worked.
15:14It was cool.
15:15So who was in the driver's seat?
15:16Like, no pun intended on that.
15:18Like, is it you that's, you know?
15:20John is like the muso's muso.
15:22So if he's like, if he leans into something amazing.
15:25We had Pino come and do bass on it as well.
15:28Like he, like, he just has an address book of the best musicians.
15:32So yeah, John was definitely the one leaning into that.
15:35But I have the, like, studio sheet from that day because they played live in it.
15:40Just having those names on it.
15:42I've got it framed in my studio at home.
15:44It's very, yeah, cool to look at.
15:45Was this the first time you'd ever recorded with Dave anything?
15:48Had you ever done anything like that before?
15:49Yeah, we'd sort of like hung out, I guess.
15:51Like, he weirdly lives next door to me in the UK.
15:56So I see him from time to time.
15:58But yeah, it's, that was the first time we worked together.
16:01But honestly, like, I can't envision that song.
16:05It works, but I can't envision where it would work outside of that.
16:09Then on the other end of it, I mean, Shakira, like total opposite Sonic profile on this one.
16:13You've been leaning into world music for many years at this point.
16:16Your new album had a lot more world elements too.
16:18Yeah.
16:19But I mean, tell me about Shakira now.
16:21I mean, I'm guessing she calls you once a writer on this.
16:23Like, what happened?
16:24Yeah, we got to know each other in the pandemic, weirdly.
16:26We sort of like had long phone calls about working together eventually.
16:30And, you know, we did sort of bits and bobs back and forth.
16:34I recorded an updated version of Hips Don't Lie with her, which was quite fun.
16:39I was water clever.
16:40Thanks.
16:41And then, yeah, she just said, I've got, she's, my kids love, it's called Zootropolis in the UK, but my kids love Zootropolis.
16:50She's obviously Gazelle.
16:51And she said, Gazelle needs a song.
16:54I was like, say no more.
16:56And we wrote it.
16:58I mean, I kind of like, I've got a five year old and a three year old, so I watch a lot of kids movies.
17:02And, yeah, I sort of feel like the best ones are all vowel based.
17:07So that's why it's zoo, ooh, ooh, ooh.
17:10Oh, that's so interesting.
17:11All the best songs are the ones that kids don't have to know the words that much for.
17:15Totally.
17:16Huh.
17:17That's cool.
17:18I don't even know if I should classify Golden as a kids song or not.
17:20Like, I don't know.
17:21Is it?
17:22Was it?
17:23It's not.
17:24Kids love it.
17:25Kids love it.
17:26I think it's because of Melody.
17:27It's fun to sing for kids.
17:29That's what's so interesting, though, about a good kids song is that it ends up transcending a kids song.
17:34Like, anything that we've seen, whether Let It Go gets really big or We Don't Talk About Bruno or anything.
17:39Like, it's just, I don't think any of those songs are considered kids songs anymore, even if the kids are the ones that drive it now.
17:44Well, Golden wasn't supposed to be for like, you know, because they're, you know what I mean, like, there are kids songs.
17:49Well, Golden was supposed to be just like a pop song because the characters are K-pop idols.
17:54So we're trying to write a really good pop song.
17:56Kids obviously love it.
17:57But the kids love it.
17:58I love it.
17:59I love it.
18:00Everybody loves it.
18:01The dads love it.
18:02The dads love it.
18:03Yeah.
18:04They're the ones putting it on.
18:05No, see it on TikTok?
18:06They have their braided hair and the top top.
18:09I love it so much.
18:11Wait, I saw a dad during Halloween who wore the outfits.
18:14It was great.
18:15What's the, is that the best, like, cosplay you've seen since then?
18:18I love it.
18:19When the dads wear the top top and their hairy tummies and their purple hair.
18:23It's amazing.
18:25Well, let's, let's go into Golden a little bit.
18:28I mean, obviously it's an absolutely gigantic song.
18:32Is it harder to write a hit when you've got all these constraints of it needs to have the word
18:35gold in there?
18:36It needs to work perfectly for this part of the script?
18:38Or did you feel like it was still manageable?
18:40Weirdly because I'm from the K-pop background.
18:43I'm really used to having briefs and like, oh, this K-pop idol wants this kind of thing.
18:47And we, you know, there's a great vocalist.
18:50So can you put a melody that shows off for vocals and all that?
18:52So it was quite natural to do that.
18:55And also because K-pop is so maximalist, you know, I'm very used to doing all the harmonies.
19:00But I think with K-pop Demon Hunters, it was really hard because it was a movie that's never been done before.
19:07It's not really a musical, but it's also not like music videos and like pop songs.
19:12And the songs have to drive the story too.
19:15So there are, the songs are truly custom to the storyline, but still has to stand alone as a pop song.
19:21So hard.
19:22So I think that's why collaboration was really key.
19:24And so me and my co-writer Mark Sonnenblick, he is in theater and he does musicals.
19:30And I'm obviously K-pop, so we would do a lot of policing.
19:34Thank goodness he's a kind person because we would have fought so much.
19:38But like, you know, he would be kind of like, even with Golden Lake, you know, he would be like giving me these lines.
19:44And I'm like, oh, no, it's a little too, no, no, no, it's too wordy.
19:49And for me, my pop brain is like, can we simplify?
19:52And thank goodness, like I knew I was going to be the singer.
19:54So it had to sing well too.
19:56But what was great with Golden is like, I like having guidelines, actually.
20:01The difficult part was that like figuring out the storyline part of the lyrics, but making sure it fits well with the melody.
20:07That's super pop.
20:08So I think how we approached it was making sure that the melody and the track is pop.
20:13And then figuring out lyrics, whereas, you know, Mark and I can go back and forth of figuring out certain words that sound really good with the melody.
20:21Because I think that's really important in pop songs.
20:23And also fits the storyline.
20:25So that was key.
20:27And also with Golden, the guideline was Rumi is this, you know, incredible vocalist, but she has to, you know, Maggie, the director, she wanted it to scale up on purpose to kind of be a metaphor of her reaching a goal that feels impossible.
20:42Which is to seal the whole moon, which is essentially this thing that blocks the world from demons, but with their song.
20:50So she has a lot of pressure on her to like people are literally depending on her voice to hit that note to seal the whole moon.
20:58Right.
20:59So it had to be an impossible note.
21:01Right.
21:02Unfortunately, I had to make.
21:03How many takes?
21:04How many takes?
21:05Yeah.
21:06Oh.
21:07That was a lot.
21:11But yeah.
21:12And so we had that.
21:13It was on purpose.
21:14And we had to have something melodic and super catchy at the same time that we can use throughout the film to signify that, you know, like to like show about like Rumi, the main character, trying to keep reaching for it.
21:26And she keeps like failing to because it's in the range.
21:30That's not who she is.
21:31You know, she's trying to stretch herself and be something that she's not to reach that note.
21:36So if you see the film, it's like that pressure and that demon that keeps following, you know, she has to overcome.
21:43The question was like, was it hard?
21:44Yes.
21:45But the melody and making the track, because again, the track was made by Black Babel, 24, Ido and Teddy.
21:53And they also had an incredible track.
21:55So it was the melody came out really, really fast.
21:58I don't know if you know, but it came on the way to dentist.
22:01I think I did hear about this, right?
22:04You were driving on the way and you started humming the melody.
22:07So like, I think as songwriters, there are like times are super weird where the melody comes really fast.
22:12And that was just one of those moments.
22:14And well, we had a deadline, but like they gave me the track and it was on my way to dentist.
22:19And I had to write the song that day.
22:21And when I heard it, it was so good.
22:24So the first melody I thought of was .
22:31And I have the voice memo.
22:33Thank God for voice memos.
22:35And then I sang .
22:42And that hook just came out.
22:43So when the melody comes out, I feel like that's a good feeling.
22:46And then we finished the melodies and I vocal produced.
22:52So I laid out a bunch of options of melodies, verses, and then I would show my co-writer.
22:57And we would kind of like move around to fit the storyline.
23:00What part's good for her to break here, what not.
23:03And then lyrics to fit the storyline as well.
23:05So yeah, it was really cool.
23:07Is that usually how melodies come to all of you too, just randomly and you got to be ready to stop whenever?
23:12Or is it like, you know, you can channel in the studio?
23:15Crazy stuff.
23:16I had one in my dream last night.
23:17Like I woke up.
23:18Well, I was singing.
23:19Sometimes I make whole songs in my head during my dream.
23:21Do you remember it?
23:22Well, if I wake up, I had my phone next to me.
23:24So I just hit record and I just started singing it.
23:26Did you do it last night?
23:28It was last night.
23:29It was morning.
23:30Well, it's early morning.
23:32But you're at this crazy high, just waking up that early in the morning and just picking up your phone.
23:36And having to remember exactly what it was from your dream.
23:39But sometimes if you get it close enough, you can just get to a studio.
23:42Max Martin said that he had that with Hit Me Baby One More Time and he tricked it.
23:47And in his head, he was like, I just want to go back to bed.
23:50And part of him went, no, get up and record it.
23:52And he got up, put the whole of Baby One More Time and then went back to bed.
23:55And he said if he hadn't have done that, that song would be crazy.
23:58It's a spiritual thing.
23:59Yeah, it is.
24:00It's a crazy experience.
24:01You can't explain it really.
24:02I think it's part of your, because I often found, I used to smoke quite a lot.
24:04And I often found that when I went out for a cigarette, that was when I would think of the melody.
24:08And I think it's when your brain switches off.
24:10It's like, I need to be creative, I need to be creative.
24:13And when you stop thinking that, then it opens up.
24:15And I think that's why when you're driving or whatever, you're basically focusing on something else.
24:19And the creative part opens up.
24:21Well, that's why I work remotely.
24:23I like working at home.
24:24Oh, same.
24:25Yeah, because all the songs that came from was in my corner in my bedroom.
24:28Yeah.
24:29Because I feel comfortable.
24:31And so I love Zoom sessions.
24:33Do you guys do Zoom sessions?
24:34Oh, no.
24:35No.
24:36I love, I'm excellent at Zoom sessions.
24:38It's very efficient too.
24:40So like all my writers, I meet them and I'm like, okay, let's do Zoom after.
24:44And then we run a better song.
24:46Well, yeah, because I feel like my bedroom, I feel so comfortable.
24:49So the melodies come out fast.
24:51But if I'm in, I have really bad stage fright.
24:53So if I'm in the studio, if I'm with you guys, I'd be so nervous.
24:58Oh, yeah, I feel that.
24:59Yeah.
25:00It's a different generation.
25:01Yeah.
25:02I feel like studios, I feel like, have songs in them.
25:05And I feel like all the big studios have already had the songs taken out of them.
25:08Like, I feel like whenever I've been in Abbey Road, I'm like, there's no vibe.
25:12They drained it out of there.
25:14I find that we build a lot of studios in like, either hotel rooms or we rent houses
25:19and blah, blah, blah.
25:20And that way, I feel like there's a better energy.
25:23It's like lower pressure too.
25:24Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:25You track your vocals in a hotel room too?
25:26Yeah, always SM7.
25:27That's it.
25:28Whoa, really?
25:29All records for the last 12 years are just SM7.
25:32What are your guys' mics?
25:33I just saw Phineas shitting on an SM7.
25:35Wow.
25:36You have good ones, you have bad ones.
25:38Yeah.
25:39You can buy a good one, you can get a bad one.
25:41They look the same.
25:42For me, I think studios are the best.
25:45Some different generation I came out with before you guys.
25:48What's your studio you work in though?
25:50My studio?
25:51Yeah.
25:52Well, my studio is sort of like an electric lady on the west coast.
25:56It sort of looks like different from that, but it has the same class to it.
26:01But I just feel like for me, you know, hanging out in a studio with the wood.
26:06You know, you get used to the wood.
26:08You get used to the room.
26:09And I do take, I have ideas on my phone.
26:11But I like the pressure that you don't like.
26:14Oh, I don't like that.
26:15Come on.
26:16I like the pressure.
26:17I feel like the pressure to make diamonds, right?
26:19So if I'm pressured to write a song, it makes me write a better song.
26:25And if I go to Abbey Road, yeah, I'm thinking about the Beatles.
26:28I might not come up with Let It Be.
26:30But I think, you know, maybe I'll come up with something later on.
26:34I like the pressure of being in the studio.
26:36And I do believe like a lot of the songs are like, you know, I feel like the temptation,
26:41like Motown took every, the best hooks ever.
26:44And there's not many more hooks left.
26:48I do love the pressure of walking in a studio, sitting behind a grand piano,
26:53looking at all these different instruments that's looking at me and telling me like,
26:57okay, you have all these instruments, what are you going to do with them?
27:01And I sort of come from that world.
27:03But I also love working in the box too.
27:05I just love doing meetings on Zoom.
27:06But going in the studio is like preparing, you know, driving to the studio.
27:10I'm thinking, you know, you go in the Henson, you know, that's A&M Records.
27:13You know how much stuff's been there.
27:15It's a lot of, a lot of things that happen at that studio.
27:18Have you been to Power Station?
27:19Of course.
27:20I saw a ghost there.
27:21Oh, here we go.
27:22While recording Golden.
27:23It's in New York, right?
27:24Yeah, I was in the fourth floor.
27:25It was like a big studio.
27:27And I, you know, the volume knob, it wasn't working.
27:31So when that happens, the engineer, like assistant engineer comes in.
27:34So it wasn't working at all.
27:35And so Sully, my engineer came in and I heard him open the door, like walking towards me.
27:41He's like, oh, it's actually working now.
27:43I look up and no one's there.
27:45And however, 0.3 milliseconds, I see this tall dude with a red flannel and blue jeans walking towards me.
27:53Like really split second.
27:55You know what they call that?
27:56And I was just like, huh?
27:57You know what they call that?
27:58A ghost rider.
28:02What's crazy is I couldn't digest the situation because we had to keep going.
28:08Dude.
28:09But what happened was, but that day I sang so well.
28:13That my music director was like, what did you eat today?
28:16Maybe it was the ghost singing, not you.
28:18Maybe because the next day I came to the studio and I was like, how old is this building guys?
28:24And immediately like, what did you see a ghost?
28:26And I was like, what?
28:28Like, yeah, I saw it.
28:29And he was like, was it a girl or a guy?
28:31I was like, it was a dude.
28:32And he was like, oh, he's from the third floor.
28:34What?
28:35And he was like, yeah, there's a lady ghost in the fourth floor.
28:37Thanks for letting me know.
28:38Sorry.
28:39We might help you.
28:40You know?
28:41Does he have a name?
28:42I don't know.
28:43Did someone die there?
28:44Yeah.
28:45What happened was it was actually a power station in like the 1800s or something.
28:49So it's actual like really old places.
28:51Wow.
28:52There's worse like, you know, times for a ghost than when you're writing music for K-pop demon hunters.
28:57Yeah.
28:58Well, also in Korea, there's a myth.
29:00If you see any paranormal activity happen during a recording, that song's a hit.
29:04Oh.
29:05Is there a thing here?
29:06So you like want them to do it.
29:07Yeah.
29:08So it's a good thing.
29:09Geez.
29:10You want to see the ghost.
29:11I always want to see a ghost.
29:12Really?
29:13Even if I'm not writing a song.
29:14Have you seen one?
29:15No.
29:16I'm still waiting.
29:17Sorry.
29:18That's such a good story.
29:20But you brought up pressure and I wanted to go into a bit of pressure.
29:23When I talk to a lot of writers, the thing that they always say is like, after you get
29:27your first, the biggest pressure they face in their career is not just the first.
29:30It's getting number two.
29:31And then after that, you're all fine.
29:33Like, is that something that's like hitting you?
29:34I mean, this album already has a lot of hits and you've had hits before.
29:37But Golden's, you know, this monolith.
29:40Do you feel any pressure about needing to do that again?
29:43A hundred million thousand percent.
29:45Like, are you kidding me?
29:46So much pressure.
29:47Well, also for me, it's like, I've had like hit song, like song in Korea.
29:52But like, my goal has always been to get number one on Hot 100.
29:56So that's why I like, you know, signed with American Publishing and like I was really ready.
30:00And then K-Pop Even Hunters came out.
30:02Oh, cool.
30:03But like, I wanted to always write like in pop music and have, you know, a number one, but
30:08not as an artist, just as a songwriter and for another artist.
30:12But like, yeah, the pressure is really intense.
30:17I mean, I got it.
30:18It has to be almost similar.
30:19Like you've had other stuff since then.
30:20But when you have, it's tied for the number, the most like number one ever for any song with a bar song tipsy.
30:27And like that was your breakout.
30:29And now the expectation is, how does anyone do that again?
30:32Like, no one does.
30:34I think you just got to have fun.
30:35Trust your gut a little bit.
30:36You know, that was a big thing with the song I put out after that called Good News.
30:40It was a lot of songs being pitched to me that were just like something with Jack Daniels or at the bar.
30:45You know what I mean?
30:46Yeah.
30:47Just like trusting your gut, having fun and realizing, you know, when you have a song that big, it's like the pressure is kind of on, but it's also off.
30:51You're like, you know, I could not do anything for the rest of my life.
30:55And this is hopefully.
30:56Do you guys all still feel pressure about like, or are you now like comfortable?
31:00We've already had enough.
31:01You're good.
31:02Like, is there still the I'm only as good as what I just put out before?
31:06I think it like builds up into like a catalog.
31:08And then like, I feel like you have some big songs, you have some medium songs, you have some ones that don't do well.
31:13But if you like all of them and you continue, like none of us are going to stop making music.
31:17So you just continue to make.
31:18And in 20 years time, you look back and be like, oh, shit, I've made loads of music.
31:22I like when I was younger, I used to go on Elton John's Wikipedia.
31:25And it always used to be very calming because his career was just like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.
31:30But we know him for all of the hits.
31:33Most artists are probably like that.
31:35Exactly.
31:36Yeah.
31:37But he, he, he'd have like four number ones in a row.
31:39And then his next five years would be like 70, 150, blah, blah, blah.
31:43He'd be like really up and down.
31:45So, and I think throughout that, he was just releasing music that he liked.
31:48Yeah.
31:49And I think that there's no, as long as you love it, there's no pressure really.
31:52And I think that the paradox is that people can tell when you are trying to follow something up.
31:57And so you, it's like one of those things where you have to tell yourself to calm down.
32:02It's almost impossible.
32:03But the best thing you're going to make is, is not thinking about what you made before at all.
32:08And just trying to find it from a pure, as pure of a place as the last thing came from.
32:14That's true.
32:15I never really cared about billboard.
32:17I never looked at it when I wrote a good song and I knew it.
32:21Yeah.
32:22You felt it.
32:23The song stayed around longer than everybody had a number one.
32:25So I was like, I'd rather have the song that stays around longer than the number in the magazine.
32:29And because the magazine goes and the song stays.
32:32So for me, it was always like, when I'm in the studio and you write a song, the reward is always in the beginning, like listening back before everybody else gets a chance to hear it.
32:42And it just sort of happened.
32:43This guy walked up to me one day.
32:44He said, I think I just beat you on billboard.
32:47I'm number one.
32:48You're number two.
32:49And I was like, man, congratulations, man.
32:50You know?
32:51Now I don't hear that song anymore.
32:52Did he well?
32:53And I still hear my song.
32:55That's the best one.
32:58I had to learn through experience.
33:00I didn't think that like when he said, I was really, you know, congratulating him.
33:03I was like, cool.
33:04We're at a barbershop.
33:05He said it in front of everybody.
33:06Like, man, you're number two and I'm number one.
33:09I was like, congratulations.
33:10But now I don't hear that song.
33:11I hear my song all the time.
33:14So back to it.
33:16You know, you just have to have fun.
33:17Like you said, you have this big, big major.
33:19I met him before he had the hit.
33:23And then next thing I looked at the TV and he was like, you know, flying.
33:27Flying in jets.
33:28I've just seen this dude in the parking lot.
33:31For real, yeah.
33:32Crazy in the parking lot.
33:33Looking at your car.
33:34Looking at my new car.
33:35I was like, man, I want one of those.
33:36And when I see the maximum, I guess you can get one of those cars now.
33:39Yeah.
33:40I was like, no way.
33:41I can never afford that.
33:42But speaking of, I know you guys talked about the bedroom.
33:45And going back to what you said about pressure, I think just because the way I was raised,
33:48I was, you know, I got a family full of like, I got a doctor in my family and, you know,
33:52I've been raised about like work.
33:53So sometimes I feel like when you're in the bedroom, it doesn't feel like work.
33:56Yeah.
33:57So it's like, I got to go to studio because, you know, if you make a hit song, there's doctors
34:01that are, we're talking about pressure, right?
34:02You know what I mean?
34:03They're in these rooms with these lights and they're performing something.
34:06So I'm like, man, I feel like we stand to, I mean, not to talk about the financial, but
34:11you stand to make so much more than people that are out there in really high pressure
34:15situations.
34:16Like we should put ourselves in those situations too.
34:17So I always feel like I got to go to the studio and make it there.
34:20But then my biggest song, I made that in my producer's bedroom.
34:22You know what I mean?
34:23I made that song in a bedroom and a lot of my best stuff was made in rooms as well.
34:27So it's interesting to see that.
34:29I mean, I think it's because I put so much pressure on myself already.
34:33I don't need more pressure on the studio.
34:35I think it depends on the person, you know?
34:38I think at the end of the day, it's just about showing up.
34:40And if you keep showing up, whether it's the bedroom or if it's in the studio, that's where
34:44the work out is.
34:45It's the artist.
34:46It's the person, you know?
34:47It is.
34:48I do love walking into it.
34:49Like if you make an album and your album is done and you have an executive set, we
34:55need that impact single.
34:56But you have a great album, but they're still saying you don't have that record that you
35:00had on the first one.
35:01And then you have to go back to the studio.
35:03When you walk in, your engineer looks at you like, how you doing?
35:06And then that's like a silent pressure.
35:08And the musician's like, hey, everybody know that you have to come up with it.
35:12And that's the pressure I like.
35:13But I wrote some big songs in my mom's house in a tiny room.
35:18So that's a good point.
35:19Michelle, with my baby, Celine's song tells you that she wants what?
35:23The reference were John Prine in spite of ourselves and Natasha Bedingfield's unwritten.
35:28Yeah, that was a wide spectrum that I thought.
35:31Are you like, yeah, I got it?
35:33Or are you like, what the hell is that?
35:34Yeah, I mean, I had a great Zoom with Celine's song.
35:37And it was really lucky because it's not a specific moment in the film.
35:41It's the end credits.
35:42So you really get to encompass just the whole feeling of the film.
35:47And, you know, she wanted a love song and said it should be romantic and it could be anywhere from John Prine to Natasha Bedingfield.
35:54And so I felt like I had real free reign to express something that I know a lot about, which is always falling in love with people who have no money.
36:03Did you, were there other rom-com vibes you were pulling from for inspiration or where were you?
36:10Yeah, I mean, I was thinking a lot.
36:12I really wanted some really simple, heartfelt sentiment because I think that all great love songs are often some kind of turn of phrase.
36:21Some, I can't help falling in love with you or they all have the word baby in them.
36:28So like, baby, I need your love in or baby love or be my baby.
36:34And so I knew I wanted to have baby, the word baby in it.
36:37And I wanted to have some kind of sentiment that was sort of a play on words.
36:43Raphael, with I Lie to You, it's one of the coolest scenes I've ever seen in a movie.
36:48And it'd be incomplete without the song.
36:50The song was as important as the visual, they go together.
36:53But I know you had said that you had the phrase, the truth hurts, I lied to you for a long time.
36:57I used to say it all the time.
36:59I didn't have a song, but I used to say, you know, thinking about your girlfriend.
37:03Like, if you got caught lying and then you just tell her, well, they said the truth hurts, so I lied to you.
37:09It was like a joke.
37:10It's so good.
37:11It's a good one.
37:12And so then, yeah, that's how I thought about it.
37:15Was it something that you were thinking for years you would want to put in a song?
37:18Or like, how did, I mean, you've been saying it for years.
37:20How did you know, you know what, it's time to put it in for this?
37:22Well, I really love blues and blues have great titles like Johnny Taylor has his song called My Last Two Dollars.
37:28And so when I hooked up with Ludwig and I went to its studio and then he was telling me about the film and he went through the whole film with me.
37:37And then Ryan Coogler is also from Oakland.
37:40His dad and my brother are like really good friends.
37:42So we had this connection, you know, this Bay Area connection anyway.
37:46And when they gave me the story about the blues and gospel about, you know, if you sing R&B and you're a kid, you know, church people are going to say, you know, you're going to hell.
37:55You're going to burn in fire if you sing blues and you have church and blues.
37:58And so when they gave me the specs of what they wanted, they were on their way to shoot the movie Saturday.
38:07It was Wednesday.
38:08So I said, yeah, when do you need the song?
38:11That pressure.
38:12And they said, we would like you to do it today.
38:14I'm like today.
38:16So I said, can I take it back to my studio?
38:18And it was like, well, we'd like you to do it right now.
38:21But I guess it kept escalating like that.
38:24And so I sat in love with this, who's an amazing composer, amazing guitar player.
38:29And we sat together and we start working on guitar riffs, just working on blues guitar riffs.
38:34And I'm like, you know, my mother's from Monroe, Louisiana.
38:37My family's from Louisiana.
38:39And everybody in that film looks like my ancestors.
38:44Right.
38:45And, you know, my mom is 92 now.
38:48And so me and my granddad, it was, we were one, you know, one generation removed from slavery.
38:55So I felt like all the ancestors of the music that I was playing, it just kind of came out.
39:01Because I felt like I was being tested to a little bit.
39:04We talked about lyrics and we started writing down lyrics.
39:06And then I recorded in the box by my, you know, just right here.
39:09I'm in the box.
39:10I'm in the box.
39:11And I just had to go into this whole, like, I'm a huge Harlem Wolf fan.
39:17Yeah.
39:18You know, I love Harlem Wolf.
39:20My first record I ever listened to and I played on a broom where my sister, Janice, held a light over my head.
39:27And the first song was A Thrill Is Gone by B.B. King.
39:30And so I've been around so much blues from my father's taking me, you know, fishing.
39:35The eight track on this Bobby Blueblad.
39:37It's been blues, blues.
39:39I've had hit records called the blues.
39:41The Tony's first or second album.
39:43Our first single was called the blues.
39:45And I felt like, you know, looking at Ryan Coogler, he just told me it was a lot of blood, a lot of soul searching, a lot of like explaining the blues side.
39:55Cause then from, from we grew up church people, blues people look like alcoholics.
39:59They look, they look at them in some negative way.
40:02Right.
40:03But the blues was people didn't want to go to church.
40:06That was their church.
40:07And he, his uncle really loved the blues and really explained the blues to him.
40:11So as he's giving me this whole thing, I'm just thinking like, okay, I have to come up with this song.
40:16I've only seen the movie the week it came out.
40:19I saw it the week before it came out.
40:21And when I saw how great it fit the scene, you know, of the preacher and the son.
40:27It was beautiful.
40:28I didn't know lyrically that it could, that could even happen.
40:33Yeah.
40:34It was, it's a guitar.
40:35It was basically a guitar and a vocal and the kid, Miles, who sang it.
40:39Like this kid is like, this big, huge voice who just took the song.
40:43And, you know, I feel like I'm a tenor voice, you know, so I have to act like a blues guy when I'm singing.
40:49You know, I have to be like, is it a true verse?
40:52I'm like, I'll add to you.
40:53So you wrote it on the Wednesday.
40:55He learned it and shot it on the Saturday.
40:57No, he, he, I wrote it on the Wednesday.
40:59I left, you know, me and Luckwood, we, we was writing it and I left and never heard it again.
41:04And I was in New Orleans playing at a festival and they were shooting the day that I got there.
41:09And I went to where they were shooting it, but I have to go back, I had to be back on stage.
41:14So I left.
41:15I didn't even watch them shoot it.
41:16But I guess I've been, my whole life has been based around blues, even though I'm saying, you know, all types of music.
41:22I mean, ever since I saw the movie, I looked through my TikTok feed and it's just, I see a ton of kids with resonator guitars and slides and playing.
41:30And like, I love that. And I never thought that we'd see something like that again, you know, like other than the kids who love Zeppelin or something and then learn that it's Robert Johnson.
41:39I didn't think we'd see that. So it's cool that Sinners brought that back.
41:42Yeah. Luckwood's his studio. He has, you know, five of those guitars just hanging on the wall.
41:47He's playing slide. You know, his, his dad was also a guitar teacher in Sweden. His dad was into John Lee Hooker.
41:55Wow. So he was really, you know, soaking it in. Also, he was on the set. He was at the church with all the people.
42:01So he got a chance to like even make the score so much bigger with Lie To You. So it was pretty cool.
42:07Yeah. So Haley, let's go into Open The Door. I mean, you clearly had built a rapport with David Byrne.
42:14You worked on the, on his solo album last year. Tell me about coming together for Twits here.
42:19He was already working on the soundtrack, I think for a while and they wanted an end credit song and I don't get these kind of calls much.
42:26So the fact that it was an end credit song and it was David Byrne, I was just like, there was no way I was going to say no.
42:33And I also am, I am kind of in a place in life where I'm like, I need to go to the pressure a little bit more.
42:40I need to like post COVID, leave my home and like put myself in scenarios that grow me, you know?
42:48And I was terrified to be in a, I mean, we were at my house out here when I still had it.
42:54And we were in this little basement studio with Daniel engineering, Daniel, who I made my record with.
43:00It was insane. Like David Byrne comes over.
43:03We've only seen each other in real life once.
43:05And he brings a briefcase and sits it on the kitchen counter and goes, I figure we could split this 50 50.
43:12And I was like, okay, sick. We haven't even written anything yet, but amazing.
43:16Love getting that out of the way.
43:18And then we went downstairs with my dog.
43:22What was in the briefcase?
43:23A lot of papers, a lot of paperwork.
43:26I was like, are we, are we doing this shit now?
43:28I was like ready to set up.
43:30I thought it was cash.
43:31Yeah.
43:32It was cash.
43:33And he was like, here you go.
43:34Here's the guarantee.
43:35And we just like, we went downstairs and I was kind of unsure.
43:39I mean, he had some music he had sent to me and I kind of understood that there was like a tone, especially when they had shown me, they had shown me the film in prep and preparation.
43:50And, and I just, I felt like I really, I understood the moral of the story.
43:55And that's kind of all I, that was like, all right, I've got my assignment.
43:58Cause I knew I was going to be handling a lot of the lyrics.
44:01And so he sat downstairs with me, played my guitar and like, yeah, like it was, it was so sick to just watch him even just like fumble around for a little bit to try to find like a guitar line or a chord, like a change to the progression.
44:18And I, in the meantime was sort of handing out like ideas.
44:22Well, here's a line I wanted to, I had watched the movie so many times at this point, because this is the first time I've ever done an end credit song.
44:32So I'm like, I have to nail this somehow.
44:35And I just felt that there were multiple layers and multiple morals to the story, like a fable or a folktale.
44:45I was trying to find the thread and there was this character, the toad that's in the movie that sort of acts as this like wisdom figure, but he speaks backwards.
44:54So they have to decode by putting them in front of a mirror.
44:57And I just thought that was so fantastical and the things he was saying about chosen family and, you know, things that when I was a kid, I would have really loved to hear from anyone, but let alone my favorite movie or something.
45:10I wanted to make him sort of the main voice to the lyrics we were writing.
45:16So there was a point where I tried to get, I was like, I think we should sing the chorus backwards.
45:21You know, I was like trying to get a little too heady with it at times.
45:25And then kind of remembering like, this is a movie that is for kids.
45:29And I think David sort of reined me in too.
45:31And we just, we landed on it by the end of the day.
45:35And he said he didn't have a car.
45:37So he wanted to see this band across town.
45:39And we drove to a TV on the radio show that night.
45:42And it was like a really, really cool day.
45:45I mean, I didn't think we would finish the song, but I was really proud of it.
45:49So you did in a day?
45:50Yeah.
45:51Wow.
45:52We did.
45:53Wow.
45:54No notes.
45:55Like you got it done.
45:56They're like, okay, cool.
45:57It's great.
45:58We sent it off and Phil like wrote back like within 10 minutes and was like, well, I should have known I would get exactly what I asked for.
46:05Wow.
46:06And I was just like, my head was in the clouds because I'm thinking like, I want to keep being able to do this.
46:12So the fact that someone's happy with it and I got to have this experience with one of my heroes was just beyond.
46:18You said the Twits is your favorite Roald Dahl book.
46:20It was, yeah, when I was a kid.
46:22There's so many.
46:23What makes it, I mean, not that it couldn't be, but Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach.
46:27It's an interesting choice.
46:28What do you love about it?
46:29I really like characters that are twisted and I like to try to find the good in them.
46:34And I think even as a kid, that was kind of interesting to me.
46:39They're pretty grotesque characters and I loved how they were portrayed in this film.
46:43I really liked that they almost, they weren't the main characters in this movie to me.
46:47I think Bisha, the young girl who sort of is like kind of the leader of all the kids at this orphanage.
46:53She to me was the light in the movie, you know?
46:56And then again, like all these other characters like the Toad and they just did such a great job of giving it a different perspective.
47:03And I don't know, I mean, it was a full circle moment though, because I loved reading as a kid, but yeah.
47:08And Shabuzi, let's talk about Took a Walk.
47:11The movie, it's pretty much the Stephen King, Battle Royale, Hunger Games style thing.
47:17Very dark.
47:18And the movie has these moments of like hope.
47:22Not to spoil it, I didn't feel hopeful at the end of the movie.
47:26And then the end credits song comes on and it focuses on the hope.
47:31I'm curious, like did you know you wanted to go on the light even though there's a little, there's a whiplash about that, you know?
47:37To go from, wow, I feel empty to hearing this beautiful song that sounds like, you know, going through the prairies.
47:44Yeah, I mean, I'm always like a huge fan of like juxtaposition, you know?
47:47When you see something that something shows and it is the complete opposite sometimes.
47:51Yeah, I remember watching the movie and I was like, yeah, this is, this is crazy and messed up.
47:55But you know, it's funny because the first thing I pitched to the studio was, I was like, how about we do a cover of Johnny Cash to go, um, Walk the Line.
48:01Walk the Line.
48:02And they were like, that's too on the nose, you know?
48:04Like more slow and brooding and just more of like a ballad of it.
48:07And they were like, no, but you have this song on your album called East of the Mastonite.
48:10And it's definitely like the least strange song on the album.
48:12And I was like, wow, you picked like the slow, because I love slow songs.
48:16I love them to death, like just slow acoustic things and just writing to that.
48:20So I just watched the movie and, you know, I'm a huge Stephen King fan.
48:23And I used to walk around with like a Chris, like a different Stephen King novel every day.
48:27Not even to read it.
48:28Damn, cool.
48:29Because that's just how much of a hero he is to me.
48:32So just having the opportunity to write a song for his first novel he's ever written in his career.
48:37Oh, really?
48:38I don't even think it was even published.
48:40It was a pen name.
48:41Yeah, it was his first novel he ever wrote.
48:44And it was always a dream of mine to be a part of anything Stephen King.
48:48Well, we've got time for, you know, we could broaden it back out.
48:51I wanted to try and get some rapid fires in here.
48:53Who are your Mount Rushmore writers?
48:56I mean, Kate Bush has got to be.
48:58Oh, yeah.
48:59Yeah.
49:00One of the heads.
49:01I would say Linda Creed.
49:02Oh.
49:03To research that.
49:04She's like one of my favorite.
49:05I said Harry Nielsen for best needle drop in a film, you know.
49:10I think everyone wishes they wrote.
49:12Everybody's talking.
49:13Yeah.
49:14Max Martin.
49:15Come on.
49:17Genuinely.
49:18No, seriously.
49:19Definitely.
49:20Man's got slappers.
49:21I think one of mine is Robert Smith.
49:23Yeah.
49:24Because Robert Smith and The Cure, those songs are, I've always loved how he says it all in the first line, you know.
49:32Like, I've been looking so long at these pictures of you, I almost believe that they're real.
49:37To me, when I heard that as a 15-year-old, I was like, I'll never just spell it out that simply.
49:45And, like, I also love, I love a good, I love someone that's not too proud to yearn really loudly in a song.
49:52I'm going to take it back.
49:53I'm always going to take it back to the vintage.
49:55Some like Rod Timberton.
49:57Oh, cool.
49:58Can you tell us what's the song?
49:59Michael Jackson.
50:00Yeah.
50:01Okay.
50:02The biggest ever.
50:03I mean, like, he has three albums that trumps everybody's.
50:06Yeah.
50:07I mean, he came from a group called Heat Wave.
50:09I think he's German or he's British.
50:12He's one of those, but he was in the military and he saw this band in America who needed a drummer.
50:20And he was like, well, I'm a better keyboard player than a drummer.
50:23And he ended up being a keyboard player.
50:25Quincy Jones grabbed him.
50:26Quincy Jones.
50:27And he wrote all of Michael's biggest things.
50:30He wrote Thriller.
50:31Damn.
50:32But like you said, the songs that people don't know that he wrote are the other ones that I like.
50:37Not that.
50:38You know what I mean?
50:39And he's like a very, was a very quiet guy.
50:41I got a chance to meet him.
50:42He got a smoke check on his house.
50:44And he was just like, yeah, you know, you think the kids still like what I do?
50:48I'm like, bro, you wrote, like, you're still trying to get there.
50:52You know what I mean?
50:53Like he had, what I like about him is like when you look at the pop format, he was writing
50:57songs that you didn't know could be in the pop format.
51:01But they ended up being, you know, because in the beginning pop was, pop songs were popular
51:07songs.
51:08Not sort of like, it wasn't that.
51:10It was like a popular song.
51:12I thought he was the king of that.
51:13And he was very quiet about it.
51:14But I'll have to say he would be her mama or Rushmore.
51:19But then also Elton John's.
51:21Yeah.
51:22Elton, even if you take out his solo career, The Lion King.
51:26Yeah.
51:27That's it.
51:28That's my favorite.
51:29It's insane.
51:30It's insane.
51:31There's another guy, Alan Menken.
51:32Yeah, Alan Menken.
51:33He did all the like Pocahontas and Beauty and the Beast and stuff like that.
51:36But I feel like a lot of our first iteration of songs are those Disney songs and like learning
51:42about.
51:43And it's an amazing like education when you're three hearing pain with all the colors of the
51:48wind as a song that's like in your, I don't know.
51:51I feel like there was a period of, maybe I'm just nostalgic about that time of Disney,
51:56but I think they were the best Disney songs.
51:58I would also say Joe Hisayashi who does all of the Studio Ghibli soundtracks and works
52:03with Miyazaki.
52:04I mean, I went and saw him in Radio City and at Radio City and everyone was crying.
52:10Wow.
52:11Because it just touches such a deep part of your childhood, these themes and that's a soft spot
52:15for me.
52:16That's a good one.
52:17We got time for maybe just a couple more here.
52:19Okay, we're almost at the end of the year.
52:20Spotify Wrapped is going to come out soon.
52:22Who do you think is going to be on your Spotify Wrapped?
52:25Or if you're not Spotify, just what's your most listened to thing of this year?
52:28I'd say Towns Van Zand for me.
52:30Yeah.
52:31I've just been listening to that album a lot.
52:33Yeah, with the Waiting Around to Die and I'll Be There in the Morning and Poncho Lefty.
52:38That's been a lot of that.
52:39Some new guys.
52:40A lot of new, really, really, really good new artists.
52:42Like really, really good.
52:43Like Medium Build is really awesome.
52:45Anybody knows Medium Build.
52:48Colts of Wall is a huge favorite of mine.
52:50Ooh, I love Daniel Caesar's new album.
52:52Yeah.
52:53Great.
52:54Love it.
52:55And Olivia Deans.
52:56Oh man, that record's great.
52:57It's fantastic.
52:58That record makes me great.
52:59I love you.
53:00I love you.
53:01I love you guys.
53:02I'm glad that's crazy.
53:03Haley?
53:04Oh my God, there's been so much good music this year, but I've been really excited by Geese
53:09because I...
53:10Me too.
53:11This is too good.
53:12And Cameron Winter's record, Heavy Metal, just is like, they're a brilliant band.
53:17And he's...
53:18His songs on his record and the lyrics on the Geese record I just think are brilliant.
53:24And I'm excited to see his very long career.
53:28You know?
53:29I listen to Mustafa a lot.
53:30Yeah.
53:31But other than that, I really listen to it.
53:33I feel like any old record that I've never heard is a new record.
53:37And I feel like streaming doesn't...
53:39They don't even have all the music.
53:41I listen to a lot of vinyl.
53:42I'm listening to a lot of Juni Morrison, who's...
53:44Juni Morrison is like another quiet legend.
53:47You know, he's like a scientist in music.
53:49Then I'm just going back and just soaking in everything he does.
53:52But Mustafa is like...
53:53Wow.
53:54My gosh.
53:55Michelle?
53:56I've been listening to a lot of Air.
53:58So I love Moon Safari and Talkie Walkie.
54:01Wow.
54:02And talk about a band that's made some really great music for film.
54:06I mean, Playground Love and Virgin Suicides is so great.
54:09They make just such sexy, vibey music.
54:12And the musicianship is phenomenal.
54:14And yeah, I've just fallen really hard back in love with that band.
54:18And Ed, no pressure.
54:19Take us home.
54:20I'm actually...
54:21I do the same thing as Raphael.
54:23I do.
54:24I'm big into vinyl.
54:25I had a realization that I never had music on in the house with the kids.
54:30And my wife was like, they're not going to grow up the way you grew up.
54:33Because there's never...
54:34I don't know why I didn't have music on.
54:35So I started always putting on a vinyl in the morning, every morning.
54:38And I tend to just buy the new releases and you just find what you find.
54:43But this year, I was late to the party on him.
54:46But John Bellion put out an album called Father Figure that blew my fucking mind.
54:50So good.
54:51Check it out.
54:52The song Father Figure, I feel like it's as a dad with young kids who's in the music industry and has the kind of push-pull of like working too much and throwing yourself into work.
55:04But then also being like, but I have a family and that's always what I wanted to focus on.
55:08Like the whole record is basically this like push-pull of like, do I want to be an artist or do I want to be like full-time dad?
55:15And I don't know.
55:16I just found a lot of similarities between the two.
55:19It's a really amazing record.
55:20That song in particular.
55:21Which one do you want to be?
55:22Huh?
55:23Which one do you want to be?
55:24My father at the moment.
55:25Oh, okay.
55:26Yeah, I think I'm really leaning into that.
55:27I'm really enjoying making the packed lunches in the morning and doing the school run.
55:31And I feel like studio work, you just fit it, you fit it in when you fit it in.
55:35And I find that I go to the studio every single day.
55:37And I used to go for 12 hours a day and now I'll go for like four and just try and be creative.
55:42And I don't mind leaving a song unfinished now.
55:45Whereas before I'd be like, I have to finish it in the same day.
55:48It's like, do the ideas and it's a bit more free.
55:50Yeah.
55:51Yeah.
55:52Call it from Eminem.
55:54He's in the studio and it gets to five and you'll be mid song and he'll be like, right,
55:58cool.
55:59See you tomorrow.
56:00Just leave.
56:01I love the regiment.
56:02I hate to stop it, but that's our time.
56:04But thank you for talking with us.
56:06A really insightful discussion.
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