- 4 weeks ago
Brett Goldstein ('Shrinking'), John Wells ('The Pitt'), Liz Meriwether ('Dying for Sex'), Mindy Kaling ('Running Point'), Paul W. Downs ('Hacks'), Stephen Graham ('Adolescence') and Tracey Wigfield ('The Four Seasons') join THR in our Producers Emmy Roundtable.
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Short filmTranscript
00:00You get a lot of notes?
00:01What do you think happens?
00:02Yeah.
00:03Of course I get a lot of notes.
00:04Oh, that makes me feel great.
00:05Oh, pages of notes.
00:07Because I'm always on a notes club,
00:08and I'm like, fucking John Wells doesn't get a lot of notes.
00:11It never stops.
00:12I'm so, I'm sorry for you and selfishly happy.
00:30I'm Mikey O'Connell with The Hollywood Reporter,
00:46and this is the Producer Roundtable.
00:50Among your series here today, we have suicidal ideation,
00:55child-on-child murder, jokes about terminal cancer,
01:00and perhaps the most graphic birth scene ever caught on camera,
01:07but definitely television.
01:10For any of you, though, what was the last scene
01:12you wrote or filmed that made you or your collaborators
01:16genuinely nervous?
01:18You know, we were nervous to write the scene in our last episode
01:23of Hacks where Debra gives up her white whale.
01:26Sorry for the spoiler if you haven't seen it.
01:28I know.
01:29What?
01:29We were really nervous to write that because it was something
01:32that we knew we were building to for four seasons.
01:34We really wanted to stick the landing,
01:36but we also didn't know how people would take it, you know?
01:40We often say that she can get away with literal murder,
01:44and people cheer her on.
01:46So to give up something even though it was selfless
01:49and hopefully, you know, character growth
01:53was a scary thing to write.
01:54And also, we were trying to wrap our arms around
01:57all the changes that have been happening in the industry.
01:59And so to try and do that in a way that was both funny
02:03but touching and hopefully coherent
02:06was challenging and scary.
02:08You wrote yourself in as a very complicated character
02:12on your own show.
02:13Yeah, well, I didn't write it for me,
02:16but then I did play it, but when I wrote it,
02:20it wasn't with me in mind.
02:21So, but then you realize that is a shortcut to play it
02:25because you're like, I do know what this is
02:28because I have written it.
02:30But yeah, I mean, look,
02:33in our show, there's suicide and death,
02:36and you have to be careful writing that stuff.
02:41And you, especially in a comedy.
02:45But I don't know the answer to it.
02:48You do a lot of research and you read lots of first-hand accounts
02:53of other people who have been through the things
02:54that they've been through.
02:55And it's also based on people we know and things like that.
02:57And you hope that you are writing it
03:00with the right amount of empathy
03:02and not being callous with a serious thing.
03:06And then just hope for the best.
03:09I mean, you have to have something.
03:11Yeah.
03:12I think we were mostly concerned about,
03:15we wanted to show what it's really like
03:18to be an emergency room physician or health provider
03:21and to have that experience.
03:23And we didn't know if the audience would keep watching.
03:26It's very graphic, but it's also very real.
03:29And so we were just concerned,
03:31would the audience actually go along for the ride?
03:33So we titrated it, to use the medical term,
03:36where it's not as graphic at the beginning,
03:38although some people would disagree.
03:41And it becomes more so because you become more able
03:45to accept what's going to happen,
03:46and leading to the birth,
03:49which we said is a gift to all women
03:51because they should look at all their children and husbands
03:54and say, that's what I just did for you.
03:58Yeah, so, but no, we discovered the audience.
04:00I make my husband watch it every morning.
04:04I think in your show, it's interesting
04:06because we see horrible things happen and graphic stuff.
04:10But the most upsetting thing was the woman being punched
04:13because we care about it.
04:15Like it was such a, it's a much smaller thing,
04:17but it was, that was the bit that upset me the most.
04:20Well, but to your point, I think so much of it is research
04:22and making certain that you're actually telling the stories
04:25based on what you've learned in the research that you do,
04:28so that you're being honest to the people
04:31who've been through these experiences.
04:33And so, you know, that was just talking to a lot of nurses
04:36and healthcare people who have been damaged.
04:38There's actually new legislation to try and deal with that,
04:41federal legislation, because there's been so much violence
04:44since COVID towards healthcare workers.
04:48I think that one of the key elements is honesty.
04:50For our show in particular, I think Jack got rather frightened
04:54when I said, you know, at the end of the first episode,
04:57we know it's him that's done it.
04:59So then it's not a who done it, but it's more of a why.
05:03And then it was about looking into the aspects
05:05of what's made this child commit this horrific act
05:10and then kind of exploring the possibilities
05:14that were all slightly accountable, you know, with respects,
05:17parents, the school system, society, the government,
05:22and then something which, yeah, but all of a certain age,
05:25that we never had or our parents never had to cope with,
05:28was the internet.
05:29And that can also parent and educate our children
05:34just as much, if not more, to be honest, than what we can.
05:38So it was kind of navigating that.
05:40And also we weren't a normal linear show.
05:43We were going to jump about along the timeline
05:46that we settled in.
05:47So I think that was one of the, that was a bit scary
05:49when I said to Jack, oh, no, no, no, no.
05:51We know he's done it.
05:52We see it at the end.
05:53And he was like, we see it at the end of the first time.
05:55I'm like, yeah, yeah, we show the kid
05:58that we've got him on Canberra.
05:59So I think that was a little bit frightening.
06:02I put off writing the last episode of dying for sex
06:06for a really long time, I think,
06:08just because I didn't want her to actually die.
06:10And I felt like I had, I had some sort of control
06:15over that for a second.
06:16And then it, it got weird and people were like,
06:19you need to write that.
06:22It's shooting tomorrow.
06:23Yeah, like, yeah, like, you can tell by the tone
06:25of the email, it's like, those sentences get shorter.
06:31But yeah, I mean, I, I don't know what it's like
06:34to write not nervous, but yeah, that was particularly daunting
06:40just, just because I, I didn't want the character to die.
06:45And, and I really didn't know kind of like where to find
06:50the comedy in it and in a way that made sense.
06:54So it was, yeah.
06:56But then I don't know.
06:56I mean, I'm more nervous now than I am writing.
07:00Yeah.
07:01But your, but your research though, because can I just say
07:04that was, um, my wife won't watch it.
07:06So I, but I watched it.
07:08Um, and I want to ask that last breath that was so beautiful.
07:16It was so beautifully written, so beautifully played.
07:19But you caught that that's, and that's when she shared to me,
07:24because my wife was there when her mom passed away
07:27and she watched the mom take that final breath and you described it.
07:30And I love the way she describes it.
07:31But then when she goes through it, like it's, it was, it was beautiful.
07:35It was so beautiful.
07:37And I swear to God, I was just, the tears were just streaming
07:40down my face because I was there and I witnessed it.
07:43And it felt, it felt like we were allowed to watch this precious experience.
07:48Do you know what I mean?
07:48And I hope my wife will watch it, but I don't think she ever will
07:51because she can't because she's been there and it'll just bring
07:54all them emotions back, but it was so beautiful.
07:58Thank you for sharing.
08:00It was gorgeous.
08:01It's too early to cry.
08:02Thank you so much.
08:04No, I, I mean, the, the breath was something that we,
08:07and Michelle was just so incredibly open and brave and just,
08:12you know, we were like really working on that
08:14because we wanted to get that, to get that right.
08:18You got it right.
08:20Similarly, we, spoiler alert, killed Steve Carell on our show.
08:24And I think just because we, Tina Fey and Lang Fisher and I created
08:29the show and our whole room, we're all comedy writers.
08:32We, we had never written a, you know, a death and kind of navigating the,
08:37because we wanted it to be funny.
08:38So, you know, navigating after they find out he dies and then they go
08:44to tell his ex-wife who's getting oral sex from her boyfriend.
08:49And then they, and then now they have to tell her.
08:53And she has this heartbreaking reaction.
08:55And now the boyfriend's playing candle in the wind on his guitar.
08:58It's kind of like, this is going to be, it's a, but it's a,
09:01when you first shot, when you first wrote it, when you shoot, shoot it.
09:04And then when you first see the cut, you're like, oh my God,
09:06there's so many like left and then right.
09:08And then left turns are people just going to be like, I hate you.
09:11Go away.
09:12What is, this is disgusting.
09:14What is this?
09:14Um, so it, you know, it's, it's scary to kind of take a leap tonally,
09:20but, um, when it works and it's funny, it's like very satisfying as a viewer too.
09:26And I think if it's human.
09:27Yes.
09:28If there's a sense that you sense the realness in it, you sense the truth in it.
09:34And that's what really works.
09:36I mean, totally, I think my show running point is maybe different on that.
09:44I was just thinking when I watch adolescence,
09:45like there's so many similarities and it came out around the same time.
09:49Well, I was going to say, you know,
09:51the fear you have when you do a show like that about sports is just
09:55the fear of the like hard work and getting it right.
09:58Because basketball fans are, you know, like I've worked with shows for teenagers
10:04and worked with shows with about the Indian diaspora.
10:06And if you get it wrong, people will pounce.
10:10And I have a very fragile ego and I hate criticism.
10:16And so in doing a show like about a basketball team where people have to do basketball speak
10:21all the time and they have to sound legitimate takes an enormous amount of research.
10:26I'm not like having suicidal ideation like other characters and other shows.
10:30I've never seen basketball and I watched your show and it sounded totally legit.
10:35Okay. So I'm so happy.
10:36So the terror of getting it wrong.
10:39So the terror of getting it wrong, you know, I think that that is, um,
10:43I am like to do things that are easy and I like to do shows about
10:48ambitious women who try to date and get married and feel acceptance.
10:51And, and that had been my career up until this show.
10:54And now it's like, oh, I have to learn this new skill, which was uncomfortable, but worth it.
10:59Liz, I read that one point FX asked you, um, to pull back on the male full frontal.
11:07Yeah, let's get into it.
11:08Just slightly, but just slightly is what interests me.
11:12First of all, what does just slightly look like?
11:14And, um, since this is your first series that really explores sex, what surprised you
11:22about working on a show that wades so deeply into like intimacy and nudity?
11:29Yeah. I mean, I wanted to write sex on the dropout and then was told that any
11:33sex for legal reasons had to be good sex.
11:37And I was like, I don't know how to write a scene where they're like, this is so good.
11:42Do you mean the quality of the sex is good or that it,
11:45the lawyers were like, it has to be good sex.
11:47And I was like, I don't even want to think about what that means.
11:50Everyone, everyone leaves satisfied.
11:51They shake on it.
11:54Um, no, I mean, it was, it was daunting.
11:56I, you know, I, I actually went to a zoom in the writers guild.
12:03They had a zoom on like how to write sex.
12:05I took notes and I put, um, it was incredible.
12:10It was really useful.
12:12And because I, I just like, didn't know how to, how to do it.
12:16Um, and I, it was like, you know, just be really clear, be really clinical,
12:21like kind of just say exactly what you want to see.
12:24And I, you know, I did it.
12:27I was blushing a little, uh, but I, yeah, I, I, I did it.
12:31Um, I, I, it was really important to me that the sex never felt like it was, um, taking
12:38you out of the story.
12:40I, I remember watching normal people and just loving the way that I felt like it, that was
12:44so integrated into kind of what was happening in the story and what was happening for those
12:49characters.
12:49So I always wanted, if there was sex in the show, I wanted it to be, you know, you want
12:54to learn something new by the end of the sex scene, like in a musical theater, like it's,
12:58it's a musical.
12:59That's how I always approach.
13:02Big musical number.
13:03Yeah.
13:03Yeah.
13:04Big finish is good.
13:05Yeah.
13:06Yeah.
13:08I mean, coming from, I did seven years of a network show where when they told us, I think
13:13it was like year four or five that we were allowed to say Dick, um, as a, not as an object,
13:20but as a insult, it was like, there were cheers in the writer's room.
13:24We were just like, we were just like, oh my God, like that's such a great comedy word.
13:27It has like that.
13:29So this was really new.
13:31And, um, I was amazed by how FX was just open and, you know, and I actually felt proud that we
13:38got them to a place where FX was like, you need to pull back.
13:42So that meant taking, that meant counting the frames that we saw the penis, um, and specifically
13:53frame by frame.
13:54Yeah. And, um, because that's what American values are.
14:00What's the, what's the maximum number of frames?
14:02You know, it was never like specifically said to me, but it was like, uh,
14:08kind of like, let's, let's just start taking them out and see what, where we go.
14:13It was specifically when the penis sprouted butterfly wings and took off flying.
14:18And there was a moment that we had to cut that I like will regret to my, to my, to my end days
14:24where the penis is like flying towards the camera and then sort of like in a flirty way,
14:29like, kind of like, and then like flutters away and we have to cut that.
14:35So that, yeah.
14:36You still have that footage somewhere.
14:37I mean, it's gotta go.
14:38I don't, I don't, but yeah.
14:41For the uncut.
14:41Yeah.
14:44That was really funny.
14:46My, my follow for everyone was going to be about executive notes in general,
14:51but now I'm very curious about legal notes, considering the enjoyable sex comment.
14:56Um, but what is the funniest or most absurd or infuriating note you've ever gotten from an
15:03executive?
15:04Not to be a kiss up, but I, I feel like legal notes are often worse because at least executive
15:10notes are often, even if the notes bad, you can read what's going on under, there's something
15:15they're not understanding.
15:16There's something that's not resonating.
15:18So whatever, let's think about it.
15:19And usually, even if you're annoyed by it, you're like, it ends up being better when you talk
15:24about it for an extra day.
15:26I, I feel like we had a, we had a penis situation.
15:30Um, we had a legal thing.
15:32The name of my next show.
15:34Your next, your autobiography, a penis situation.
15:37We had a thing where we had a joke, uh, that was, you know, at the end of an episode,
15:42uh, the friends come over Ann's hotel room and, um, they turn on her TV and like a really graphic
15:48porn is playing really fast.
15:50And we were told, um, but by our studio that, uh, you, we cannot, it's a studio rule.
15:57We cannot license pornography.
15:59We never do.
16:00You will have to shoot it yourself.
16:02And I was like, what?
16:03I've got, I've gotten that note multiple times.
16:05I'm like, I'm like a Catholic girl.
16:07I'm not shooting a porno.
16:08Like, what are you talking about?
16:10And I, but it was really like, we went back and forth that it was like a legal thing that it's,
16:16and it's coming from a good place where it's like a lot of these, uh, but porn that you license,
16:21it's like, we don't know if they're totally consensual and what that sure, sure, sure.
16:25Um, and, but we went back and forth and then finally there was a list of kind of like on the
16:30legitimate, there was a guy who was a producer that they had some sort of relationship with
16:36that they're like, look through his title.
16:38So while we were shooting in Puerto Rico, just anytime you'd see me on set that we weren't shooting,
16:43I was just like, and they're like, what are you doing? Get away from the set.
16:46And I was like, no, I got to find it.
16:48But did you have to pick the scene as well?
16:49Yeah, I had to pick the scenes.
16:50Okay.
16:51Did I want, well, you know, by the end.
16:52No, I mean, the scenes that you wanted to show on the telly when,
16:54Yes.
16:54When in a hotel room, I've seen it, yeah.
16:56Yes.
16:56So you had to go, I want that.
16:57I want that one.
16:58And what the, the code.
17:00As it's happening at that point.
17:01Yeah, so I, but I watched this gentleman's body of work and that was the best one.
17:06And the lawyer was like, you know, we've never, like, we've, we've fought, we've like had this
17:11come up on a lot of shows before and they always end up filming it themselves.
17:16And this was at Universal.
17:18They were like, this, this will change a lot of things for, certainly for the gentleman who made
17:22all this pornography.
17:23He's so excited.
17:25I like that you keep calling him gentle.
17:26You're, you're really like, I want to protect his integrity.
17:32So instead of second unit shooting it, now it's going to be the gentleman's.
17:38It's going to be, yeah, this is his moment.
17:40Gentleman's back catalog, which can be used for any, wow.
17:43That's right.
17:43I had to send reference photos for the prosthetic penis.
17:46That was a weird email.
17:48Yeah.
17:48You're like, I was like making breakfast for your kids.
17:50Happy Saturday, everybody.
17:54Where did you find your photos?
17:56I went to gentleman.com.
17:58Has anyone else ever gotten a note from legal that was wild?
18:04This is, this is, I can't get over this.
18:06Constant.
18:07Oh yeah.
18:08Pages.
18:10Pages of them.
18:12Yeah.
18:12What's the craziest one?
18:14Oh, I mean, it's really hard to imagine.
18:16I mean, you know, it's names that drive you crazy.
18:19You can't ever clear any name.
18:20You spend a lot of time thinking about names and then you get back like, no, you can use.
18:24It has to be John Lavender.
18:27I'm not naming him that.
18:29It's the only one that's cleared in the United States.
18:31We had, we had a note.
18:33Deborah Vance was on tour and she saw a flea market or a garage sale, a yard sale.
18:37And she stopped to buy a Chippendale tall boy chest.
18:42And we were told that the scrolling might be protected by the, um, estate of the person
18:47that carved the chest in 1820.
18:51So we couldn't use it.
18:53Yeah.
18:53So that was a hard legal note.
18:55Yeah.
18:55I'm sorry.
18:56I'm laughing.
18:58It's funny.
18:59It's funny.
19:00We used it anyway.
19:00I think we got around it.
19:01I think we pushed back and it was okay.
19:05Um, in the interest of moving away from penises.
19:07Uh, Steven, Adolescence is, it's only four episodes.
19:15It's about one of the darkest subject matters imaginable.
19:19It's filmed like an art house feature.
19:22It doesn't scream commercial hit.
19:24Uh, yet it is like the biggest streaming show in the UK ever.
19:28It's the first to top the charts.
19:30I think as of this week, it surpassed Stranger Things as the most watched English language
19:35title on Netflix.
19:36I mean, what is the lesson from that kind of surprise success?
19:40Because this really grabbed people.
19:42I think, look, if I'm really honest, we, it was a, it's a colloquial story.
19:47It's set, we were having this conversation just a minute ago.
19:50It's set in a, a fictitious place up north.
19:53Um, we were true to the, to the subject.
19:57It was made with honesty.
19:59It was made with integrity and we never, and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way,
20:04shape or form, but we didn't make it for it to be successful.
20:07We were under no obligation, neither to make it so it was successful.
20:11We, like I said, we made it with a lot of passion, a lot of love, and we were true to
20:15the story that we were telling, um, we made a little gem.
20:20We made a lovely little gem and we had the most beautiful, glorious experience.
20:24Every single member of the cast and every single member of the crew.
20:28We had a wonderful summer.
20:29It was like a summer holiday.
20:31It was just a joyous occasion.
20:32Look, you know, we, we kind of threw the real book out the window.
20:36We only do two takes a day, you know, so, so it was a wonderful experience.
20:40It was, it was a performance, but we didn't know what would happen.
20:45When we, when we released it and we just threw this little, beautiful little gem into
20:49what we thought was a pond and it created a tsunami.
20:52I think it just caught something in the zeitgeist and, you know, a lot of parents
20:56really related to it.
20:58When we made it at the very beginning, you know, when I had the idea and I was explaining it to Jack,
21:03one of the main things, the overall objective was that I hoped it would create conversation with
21:07parents and children.
21:09And that was all we were asking for, do you know what I mean?
21:11So maybe art is subjective and, you know, we, we made something with honesty and with truth.
21:18And I, and you know, it's, it's a scary situation because like I explained before,
21:23when we were kids, we didn't have the internet.
21:25When I was upstairs in my room, I was either drawing pictures or,
21:29do you know what, playing with my Star Wars figures.
21:31I didn't have the possibility to reach and talk to people across the other end of the world,
21:37let alone, you know, the end of my street.
21:39So we wanted to look at that.
21:41And I think it just, I think, you know, people just, it just resonated for whatever reason.
21:45I don't know.
21:45I'm not a magician.
21:46I have no idea, but I think it was just because it was a simple story told with truth.
21:51And it was about human condition, do you know what I mean?
21:54It was about us as a society and looking at all of those aspects, like I mentioned earlier on.
21:59But I, I don't know, there was no magic formula.
22:03We just had the most glorious time making it.
22:05And I think that's, that's really all you can do.
22:08Do you know what I mean?
22:08We skipped away.
22:09We had a wonderful time.
22:10It was a heavy subject matter, but we had a lot of fun.
22:12I think it's also trust the audience.
22:15And I think to your point is that there's a lot of,
22:18there's a lot of time that we spend talking about,
22:22is this going to work or not work?
22:23The truth is, write something that you really care about,
22:26that you feel with honesty and integrity and trust that the audience is intelligent
22:31and that they're, they have empathy, that they have, and they will respond and they'll show up
22:36when they see that, that honesty in the material.
22:39So the, the audience is very sophisticated, very visually sophisticated, very narratively sophisticated.
22:45And I think we can trust them a lot more to come with us.
22:47It's having that respect for your audience as well.
22:50Do you know what I mean?
22:51You don't have to spoon feed them all the time.
22:54But in finding such a big audience, I'm wondering how this has changed the,
22:58the volume and the nature of the incoming calls you get.
23:02I mean, this has been a, a pretty high point in your career.
23:06Yeah, of course.
23:07But it was also the high point for all of us as a collective, do you know what I mean?
23:11It was a team game.
23:12Yeah.
23:13What we did, you know, acting and making something is, it's not a game of golf.
23:17Do you know what I mean?
23:17There's a lot of people involved and the crew and everybody, you know, I mean,
23:22the amount of people that it goes into a production, as we all know, you know, it's,
23:25it's phenomenal.
23:26But for that particular thing, we, we were all on board and we all jumped on a train and
23:32we didn't get off it till it stopped.
23:33And everybody gave it 110%.
23:36Like I said, it was the most unique way of working.
23:38We did two takes a day.
23:41Ultimately we set, we set out and the way we, we worked as well,
23:44we rehearsed for a week with the script, just the actors and Phil, our wonderful director
23:49and Jack and myself, we worked with that script for the whole week and it was tight
23:54and everybody knew what they were saying, why they were saying it.
23:56We all understood the subtext.
23:58And then we had a wonderful week of creating a ballet, basically,
24:02of choreographing where the camera was going and the technique.
24:06And then the week after that you shoot and you did two takes a day.
24:09So ultimately the, the overall idea was to have 10 takes at the end of the week.
24:14That didn't always, that wasn't always the case.
24:17I think for episodes three and four and episode two,
24:25they were all the last takes that we, we ever used.
24:28So for take, for episode four, we used take 14, which is the very final take.
24:34So it was just a wonderful experience. Do you know what I mean?
24:37How many, how many, if you did 14 takes of the last episode,
24:41how many did you get all the way through?
24:43Um, maybe about, no, about 10.
24:46Wow.
24:47Yeah, just maybe, yeah, 10, I think it was,
24:50because there was some kind of stops, technical elements.
24:53Like if the cup wasn't there, I tried to carry on and then, but that affected something else.
24:57Yeah.
24:57And that was just a simple mistake.
24:59Matt, I won't mind me saying, one time as we're going into the house,
25:03he's backing up and the door was shut.
25:05So we banged it straight in.
25:07So we have to go again.
25:08But thankfully we're only like four or five minutes into the take.
25:12And you can imagine the energy is palpable.
25:14No one wants to drop that ball.
25:16Do you know what I mean?
25:16Yeah.
25:17A one minute one-er is stressful when it gets to you and then moves on,
25:20much less 14.
25:22I mean, that's, I also remark at all of the actors,
25:26even the background actors are so committed and so good and are so on.
25:32It's so, it's such a, it's such a well-built world.
25:35I mean, did you audition all of the background as well?
25:37Did they all read for those roles?
25:38We did.
25:39Most, the, the actors who were the kids in the school, most of them,
25:44yeah, we, we, we auditioned all of those.
25:46Wow.
25:46But then what, another wonderful idea again, which was, you know,
25:49that was part of the production elements and, and Phil and Mark as well.
25:53What we kind of did was the school we used, 150 kids, it's their school.
25:58Wow.
25:59So they had ownership of it, do you know what I mean?
26:01It was their school.
26:02Yeah.
26:02Yeah.
26:02So they, so we was like, just go to class.
26:04That's right.
26:05Okay.
26:06And when you hear the fire alarm, because we walked around with the headmaster,
26:09we went right through the school.
26:10When they have a fire alarm, they go to this point.
26:13So one of those kids knew where they were going.
26:15But to also not look at the lens, you know what I mean?
26:17Exactly.
26:18It's just like for those kids.
26:19I mean, really remarkable.
26:20It was just, it was just, it was a wonderful, wonderful thing that we, we created.
26:24And that little play, Pontefract, it really affected the town.
26:28And every single person felt like they had an ownership of it.
26:31Do you know what I mean?
26:31Oh, it was, yeah.
26:34I don't know what else to say apart from it.
26:36It's just, it was glory.
26:37It was a glorious experience.
26:38Yes.
26:39I would have been so afraid that I, if I were like on the crew that.
26:43Yeah.
26:44You have to be in season two.
26:45Yeah.
26:46You have to be in, like have a two line role and you'll see how you do.
26:50I would go to bed, like having nightmares and I would, I would trip.
26:53Anyway, sorry.
26:54Brett and Liz, you're both here for comedies about death that are very funny,
26:59but also have incredibly heartbreaking moments.
27:02They work in their genre.
27:04There's been a lot of critiques about like, what is a comedy right now?
27:10And I'm just wondering, like, how do you walk the line
27:12in your writer's room of not like veering too far into one direction or another?
27:17Like, how do you strike a tonal balance like that?
27:20Because it is a tightrope walk.
27:23Up to you.
27:27We, I mean, look, I, me and Bill Lawrence and Jason Segal co-created the show.
27:33And it was always like a strict rule that this is a comedy.
27:37But it's got, we have a lot of jokes in it.
27:40And we have an amazing writers room who pitch a million jokes.
27:44I think I was thinking, I think not consciously, but I think that basically we write it as a drama
27:51and then fill it with jokes.
27:53I sort of think that's it.
27:54And I think in terms of the tone, it's like instinctual or it's, or we have a shared
28:02agreement of what is the right amount of funny and sad.
28:09And when something's too sad, you can't, it won't be funny again.
28:13And if it's too funny, if it's too broad, we can't come back.
28:15You know what I mean?
28:16There's a, there's a middle ground and you're, and it isn't that hard to find.
28:20Because I think it is our, how we see the world.
28:23Anyway, it's funny and sad.
28:25You know what I mean?
28:26Is that fair?
28:27You tell me.
28:28Yeah.
28:30I'm speaking for both of us.
28:31He was speaking for both of us.
28:33Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:37I think I really nailed that.
28:38Mindy, um, no, she doesn't want to, um, Mindy, uh, you, it was so weird when you spoke for Liz.
28:54Why did you silence her?
28:55Were you silenced?
28:59You feel comfortable with that answer, right?
29:01I thought you were, oh my gosh.
29:05Mindy, um, you were an actress.
29:08Uh, you're a household name, uh, but you've done a remarkable job.
29:12Once someone mentioned, no, thank you.
29:15There you go.
29:15Um, you've done a remarkable job of avoiding appearing in the series that you write and
29:19produce since the Mindy project.
29:21And that can't be from a lack of executive pressure in certain scenarios, because like
29:28you on camera can help sell a show.
29:31Um, so how did you establish those boundaries to keep writing and producing largely separate
29:37from your acting work?
29:39You know, uh, what I liked about the way you asked the question is that you made it sound
29:44like a conscious decision.
29:46And I, you know, the truth, I love performing.
29:49You know, I, I, after we did Never Have I Ever, which was a show literally about an Indian family
29:55in Southern California and I wasn't in it and I liked how it came out, I was like, well,
30:00if I'm not in that show where it'd be just very easy to incorporate me, then maybe I shouldn't be
30:06in the shows, you know?
30:07But it's not like I don't think about it.
30:08And especially on Running Point, the cast is so fun and the set is so fun.
30:13It's like Kate Hudson, you know, I've admired her for the long, I almost said when I was a kid,
30:19but that made her sound older than me.
30:21You were the same age.
30:22And I was a young child watching her and her comedies.
30:25Um, no, but, um, but she's so much older than me and she, I looked up to her as a mentor.
30:30No, we're exactly the same age, but I, her and Drew Tarver and Justin Theroux and, you know,
30:35I love the cast and I get jealous.
30:38I'll watch it.
30:39And Ike and I, Ike Barinholtz and David Stassen, who isn't a performer, Ike and I,
30:43you know, he gets to go do the studio, which is another amazing show, but I just sit there
30:48wishing I could be on screen.
30:50So to answer your question, I'm mad about it and I wish I could do it.
30:54No, I, I, um, I think, and this is not true, but in my mind, I was like, oh,
31:00maybe it's classier that I'm not doing it.
31:03But there have been times, I don't know, Liz, if you feel, Tracy, you feel this way
31:07because you both performed or you want to Alfred Hitchcock it, where I come out at the beginning
31:11and talk about, talk about the themes of the show and then disappear.
31:16Yeah.
31:17Um, I'd like to be in it.
31:19Paul, I really want to talk about Cher.
31:21Oh, great.
31:22Let's, let's get into it.
31:23Your attempts to get Cher on Hacks prompted her to reject you with a,
31:28I don't want to do it.
31:30Yes.
31:30And then.
31:31She was very straightforward.
31:32Yeah.
31:33Sweet.
31:33Sorry.
31:34No, no, we, we asked her in season and I actually told the story wrong before.
31:39We asked her in season three and then again, this season.
31:43Um, and we were told that she has a ice cream brand called Sherlato.
31:49Cher is gelato.
31:50And her manager said, look, if you write in Sherlato, she's in.
31:52And so we said, great.
31:54And so we wrote a commercial for Sherlato.
31:56Debra Vance was going to go to the Sherlato factory.
31:57She was going to taste all the Sherlato.
32:00In our world, there was, and it was gorgeous.
32:02And it was great.
32:04Debra was going to be forced to wear a hairnet.
32:06She didn't want to, but it was great.
32:07You know, and then at the end, Cher was going to say, um,
32:10I just want you to get extra calories.
32:12I'm not doing your show because you stole my backup dancers in the eighties.
32:14So F off.
32:16Anyway, um, we got a pass and we get a lot of passes that are very nice.
32:22You know, people are like, oh, love the show, but I'm shooting at a tower.
32:25Who else has passed?
32:26Can I know?
32:27Um, actually, this wasn't, this wasn't, this wasn't for, for hacks,
32:33but we did get Harv, Javier Bardem passed in the best way.
32:35He said, I cannot say yes right now, which is Spanish for now.
32:38So, but we said to Cher's manager, is there any feedback?
32:44Can we change the script?
32:45Anything we should know?
32:46And she said, yeah, she, she emailed me and, um, I quote,
32:49I don't want to do it.
32:51She just didn't want to do it, which I guess what,
32:52if anybody can say, I don't want to do it, it's Cher.
32:54So, yeah.
32:56So in writing the, I don't want to do it into season four,
33:01about her doing the show within show.
33:03Yes.
33:04Are you still courting her?
33:05Is that, is that a signal to her?
33:07Are you just having fun?
33:09We're just having fun.
33:10We're just having fun.
33:11We're just trying to be truthful, you know,
33:13and, uh, represent the world we live in, honestly.
33:16You used what you said.
33:17That's exactly right.
33:18We use the truth.
33:19It's about, it's about truth and comedy.
33:21And so we said, we're going to use Cher's words.
33:23We're going to honor her.
33:23We're not going to silence her.
33:24We're going to honor her.
33:25And so it, no, no.
33:29The celebrity cameos this season were very good.
33:32Well, thank you.
33:33Kristen Bell.
33:34Yes.
33:34Jimmy.
33:35Yes.
33:35It's really great.
33:37Carol Burnett.
33:38Carol Burnett.
33:39Yes.
33:39All of whom were, were very, very kind to do it.
33:43Yeah.
33:44Yeah.
33:44They said yes, which was great, which I like more than no.
33:47Yeah.
33:48Yeah.
33:49Who else has had a guest star ovation go wrong or not come through?
33:56Not, not on this show.
33:57I mean, we, like, we can talk about your whole career.
34:00Yeah.
34:00I mean, this show was like in such an incredible, uh, I mean, we just felt so lucky.
34:07Like, you know, Tina was created it with us and so was starring in it.
34:11So, you know, it obviously drew a lot of great people,
34:13but we got Steve Carell and Coleman Domingo and Will Forte and Cary Kenny that, you know,
34:19it was the greatest cast I've ever written anything for.
34:23It was like such a, you know, it just felt like such an exciting opportunity to be able to
34:29see these great actors do like great comedy.
34:31I have written on other shows.
34:34I, like, I, I did a reboot of Saved by the Bell where we were trying to get a,
34:40a, or I feel like this was maybe like a,
34:43a directive we got from Universal that we were trying to get someone from The Voice.
34:47And it was like, you know, we couldn't get Adam Levine.
34:49And so we'll take someone out.
34:50And it kept going down until finally they were like, okay, no one wants to do it.
34:55We can get you the chair, the chair.
34:59And honestly, we were like, okay, so wait, but guys, so we wrote it in that it was like
35:05the chair from the, I don't even remember what the scene was.
35:08The chair from The Voice is there.
35:10And we had to build, the chairs from The Voice are very heavy.
35:12And we had to build a special stage that was like maybe a little expensive.
35:15So it could hold the chair.
35:17And Mikey, the day, the day of, we got a call from The Voice.
35:22The chair is not coming.
35:25The chair is not coming.
35:27The chair canceled on me.
35:28And so, and I don't remember when we had to, the day of.
35:32It was like my darkest moment in Hollywood.
35:36From the chair, but not, but look at me now.
35:41Who cares, chair?
35:42The chair was on a bender.
35:44Yeah, she is out of control.
35:48Oh, um, Tracy, we were,
35:51we were speaking with your collaborator, Tina Fey.
35:56Um, and she said that one of your strengths as a writer is that you have a great feel for
36:00what's corny and that you're quick to call bullshit.
36:03Um, so I'm wondering, how do you deploy that kind of rejection in the room?
36:08Because corny and bullshit are, they could be interpreted.
36:12Yeah.
36:13Yeah.
36:13It's rude.
36:14Rude to say that in the room to Tina Fey.
36:16Um, you know, I, I think that's a really nice compliment.
36:18I've worked with her for a really long time.
36:20She gave me my first job writing on 30 Rock and, um, produced a show I did for NBC.
36:26Like we've worked together for a long time.
36:28And I think she and I really know each other and trust each other.
36:31And I think with this show, especially like I, you know, it was a new kind of mode of writing
36:38and we wanted it to be really more truthful than other stuff we've written and to feel
36:43really human and to feel really observational about marriage and long friendships.
36:49And we wanted people to watch it and be like, oh my God, my husband and I are exactly like this.
36:55And, and I think that only works if you are writing things that feel really true.
37:02And, and, you know, and so I think, uh, that's, you know, that's something in the room.
37:09I think we all try to do is just, is this the funniest?
37:13Is this the, you know, is this like just a weird choice or is this the choice that feels
37:19like it will make people watching be like, oh, I, that resonates.
37:24That's me, you know?
37:25So I, I think that that impulse, uh, is, you know, is something I try to do.
37:30And, um, I think that's a compliment, I think.
37:35One thing you all have in common is that you're working right now.
37:37Um, a lot of people aren't, um, I'm wondering what's the most worrying conversation that you've
37:43had with an executive this year or in the last year, I guess.
37:47Um, I don't want to name names, uh, but every time I suggest shooting in Los Angeles, somebody
37:55says, we don't even want to budget it.
37:57You can't afford to shoot it.
37:59It's become a, it's become a, uh, a truism that you can't do it.
38:04And that's not true.
38:05I mean, we're shooting the pit in Los Angeles.
38:06And, um, so it's, those are the kinds of things that, you know, that you have to go to a foreign
38:12country.
38:13Uh, there's, you know, wonderful work that's being done in it, but it's very difficult
38:17in Los Angeles for people.
38:19So, yeah, there's a general sense that it can't, that you can't afford to do it.
38:24So we have to prove to everybody again that we can.
38:27And New York too.
38:28And New York, same thing.
38:29Like you're penalized for shooting in America.
38:33Yeah.
38:33Shooting in all these tax incentives.
38:35There are, they're just not enough.
38:37Yeah.
38:39Yeah.
38:40So I think that's the thing that's worried me the most is that we may hollow out
38:44a lot of our, um, really talented crew.
38:48Yeah.
38:48Who are moving and leaving town and, and, uh.
38:51Because they can't work in the place where, where, I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
38:55It doesn't make any sense.
38:56At all.
38:56Yeah.
38:57In Hollywood.
38:57That's ridiculous.
38:58Yeah.
38:58Yeah.
38:59And in New York, it's, you know, and now even Atlanta, there's not enough work in Atlanta.
39:04Everything's kind of moving out.
39:05So, and we're going to hollow out the industry of a lot of the people that we actually really need,
39:09the craftspeople, the talent that we need. Um, so that's been the most concerning thing
39:14that I've heard this year.
39:15I mean, not to double down on the darkness, but I, it was the Milken Institute just this week,
39:22uh, claimed this trend of like production loss in Los Angeles is like at the significant risk
39:28of becoming irreversible at this point. Um, and so the four of you who are shooting your shows
39:34in Los Angeles, what's your advice for like producers trying to like economically leverage
39:42this with all this pressure to not shoot here, um, outside of just like being like Kate Hudson's
39:48the star and she wants to be here.
39:51She wants to be here.
39:52Yeah.
39:53I think there's, um, as writers, those of us who are very involved in the writing of the shows is
39:59we have to be responsible to how we write to allow you to actually shoot.
40:03Um, and to shoot in responsible ways where you can then do it financially that makes sense.
40:08So, uh, it kind of starts with us in saying, we're going to design a show that we can actually,
40:15what's the budget that you would like to do it for?
40:17We want to do it here because we have the craftspeople here or in New York or, uh,
40:22and so let us design to that number and write to that number so that we can actually do the show
40:29that we want to do in a place.
40:31Cause you've got, you know, on the pit as an example, we had 325 speaking parts in the first
40:3615 episodes.
40:38So you're not going to do that in Atlanta or Toronto.
40:42You need to be someplace where you have 300 and, you know, or 750 actors that you can bring in for
40:47those parts.
40:48Same thing with London, same thing with New York.
40:50You, you need, you have a pool of people who are talented.
40:52And so we design shows back into what you can actually do in the places that you want to shoot
40:58them that allow people to have their families and actors to have their families and not be on the
41:03road the whole time.
41:04And, you know, because it's very difficult for, uh, for a crew and cast to, you know, not be at home.
41:10Yeah.
41:11To me, what I think is a little bit scary about the industry now is that how difficult it is,
41:17I think, to green light shows without established stars.
41:21And to me, breaking through is so hard.
41:25And we had a little, um, a little window there where we were seeing a lot of shows where it was
41:30like the premise or the script was so good.
41:32And there was enough money flowing that you'd get those green light.
41:34And some of my favorite experiences on stage have been like, you know,
41:39the office didn't have that many, like Steve was known, but everyone is pretty unknown when the,
41:44when we did the remake of the office and like two of my more recent shows have been that way.
41:50Like running point is great because it has so many well-known established stars.
41:53But I think that is, it's so fun discovering talent and discovering people that don't normally
42:00get seen.
42:01And I think that's just becoming a little bit harder.
42:05I think it's important and it's integral that we create opportunities.
42:08You have to create opportunities.
42:10Do you know what I mean?
42:11And you should be able to do that in the place where you, where you're working.
42:14You have to be able to create, create those opportunities for young people,
42:18not just young people now, but you know, people of our own age as well, who,
42:22who are still struggling and we're still on that kind of daily trying to find a job.
42:26You have to, it's, it's integral.
42:27You have to support those people and you have to create those opportunities.
42:32I love your idea.
42:33So then technically what would we do when we go to a studio and say, okay,
42:36so what's your budget for this thing?
42:37What do you want to spend?
42:38Because you present it first and say, this is what we have.
42:40What do you want it to be?
42:41And then let me decide how I figure out where to shoot it.
42:43I just, I'm just in the middle of that right now for New York.
42:47And, you know, it's just continue to like, but if you shoot here,
42:50you're going to get this many more days.
42:53And, you know, you just kind of like, you can't separate out the quality of the
42:58people that you can hire to do the job from the eventual success of the show.
43:02And I think there's a disconnect in between sometimes between that.
43:05And the, you know, when you're in a place where you can call upon a number of really talented
43:12people, you're going to have a better show.
43:14It is part of the, it's part of the mix that gives you the show that you want to have.
43:20It's also that catch 22 situation now, to go back to what you're saying.
43:23Yes, you need a star, but how are you going to allow these other people to try and become stars,
43:28which I think is a dying thing anyway, personally, it's about the quality of the actor.
43:32And it should always be about the quality of the actor. Do you know what I mean?
43:35But how do we elevate those people to give them the opportunity to play those roles?
43:41We have to, surely.
43:42And it is so difficult now when so many things are subscriber based and they don't have
43:47DVD sales to pay for a season of TV and they have subscribers only and they need a name that
43:51people recognize. And it's really one of the scariest things that was said to me was a writer
43:56of ours, who's a comedy writer and has been writing on Hacks and is fantastic.
43:59Their agent said to, um, to them, what about writing a drama?
44:05Because it's easier in some ways to sell a drama because comedy isn't always international.
44:08It doesn't always get the same audience that dramas can get.
44:11And that to me as someone who makes a show about making comedy is really scary because
44:18I think a lot of my favorite performers are comedians that were broken doing comedy,
44:26you know, um, comedy central doesn't exist. They don't do originals anymore. And that broke so many
44:30people. So that to me is a really scary thing too. And it is, it all goes back to the fact that now
44:37corporations can't make a small profit. They have to grow their profit every year. And it's absolutely
44:41obscene that the only way to do that is to outsource labor and to push down on the art.
44:47So I think it's all like part and parcel of the same thing, which is, you know, this was an industry
44:53that was lucrative for a century and made money, made people money and people shared in the profit
44:59of that money. And now it's, it's a very different industry that has to grow every single year so that
45:07the shareholders and the stock value goes up. It's really a, it's a, it is a scary thing. And I think
45:12it's not just in show business, but it's also, it's everywhere, you know, I mean, this is obvious,
45:16but, um, it is scary. I also think network pilots used to really like be, you know, even the ones that
45:24didn't go, it was like, you found a lot of young actors and that was like a, and you know, I've had
45:32plenty that didn't go, but like, that was my entry into it, you know, um, at least you were given the
45:38opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. And I learned a lot. And I do think it's incumbent upon all of us now
45:43who've had some success to remember how we got to that success and how it came up. And it makes
45:49certain that we're bringing along and training and giving opportunities. And, and, you know,
45:55that's an essential part of the job is, you know, we've got, you know, on, on the pit, we've got Noah,
46:00who's fantastic. And he was that person who could drive it forward. And then everybody else has either
46:06been on a lot of things, but you don't know who they are, or they were brand new and came out of
46:10the theater. And, and now we've made, I don't know about stars. I don't know what a star is or not,
46:16but, but we're started their careers. That's part of our responsibility for writers, for technicians,
46:21for actors, for, we're in that place now where it's our responsibility and other people did it for us.
46:27Right. So. We have to wrap things up in a sec, but I'm wondering what's the professional
46:32call you all still dream of getting. I want to be on the Gilded Age as one of those
46:39catty women that's like, they're not rich enough to talk to. Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to
46:45be, I don't know that, I don't think Indian people were in the United States then. It wouldn't make
46:49any sense, but I like one of those Julian Bellows dramas to be one of the people that's gossiping
46:56about the other people. There could have been a secret Indian Aster. Thank you. Thank you.
47:01You know, so I, I just, I don't know if you feel this way, but I love things that I don't understand,
47:08like how they were made. So, you know, like, you know, particularly with The Pit and then with
47:14adolescence, you watch it and you're like, you feel the giddiness of like, oh, I think I'm learning
47:18something. And you know, that you can get in a rut, especially in comedy world where you're like, oh,
47:24is this feel comfortable and familiar? And I've done this before. And so to me,
47:29you know, what you're doing with your creative partners and you are like,
47:32Julian Bellows, you're like, wow. Like, you know, anything period, I, I find that very exciting.
47:37I'd like to have a call that started with, we have no notes.
47:40You get notes? You get a lot of notes? What do you think happens? Yeah, of course,
47:47I get a lot of notes. Oh, that makes me feel great. Oh, pages of notes.
47:50Because I'm always on a notes club and I'm like, fucking John Wells doesn't get any notes.
47:53Oh, it never stops. It never stops. I'm so, I'm sorry for you and selfishly happy.
48:00I do think about you a lot, like when I'm failing in the writers room and I'm like,
48:05John Wells wouldn't do that. Oh, no, you fail all the time. That's how you know the writers
48:10room is kind of working as you fail. Because eventually if you fail enough in the writers
48:14room, then something, at that moment of utter despair. I know, but you feel, do you really
48:20feel that? Like you still feel that when you, when you can't break something?
48:23Oh yeah, yeah, never goes too late. But it's hard to remember that.
48:25You always get back there and then you're like, it's not going to work this time.
48:29Trusting the process can be really hard because you have to get to the despair.
48:32For the breakthrough. And it's so hard. It's so hard.
48:35Like the third time you can't break something.
48:38Yeah. Yeah.
48:39They go home and they go like, maybe I'll get it tomorrow.
48:42Yeah. Maybe somebody else will come up with an idea.
48:44Should we talk about something else?
48:45Yeah. Yeah.
48:47Because we all suck right now.
48:49We're all terrible.
48:49They're not joining in. They're like, we.
48:54We suffer. It's the art of living suffering.
48:57But people in the U.P. don't talk about it.
48:59They're suffering, you know? Yeah.
49:01Right. No one sucks. Real, real quick, last question.
49:05What is the last series that you watched that made you really jealous?
49:12I don't know about jealous. Not jealous. I don't. Not jealousy.
49:17I watched it.
49:17Are you serious?
49:18No.
49:18Are you serious?
49:19Your series.
49:20Are you serious?
49:20Your series I watched.
49:21And I was blown away by the beauty of it and how funny it was.
49:25And just how wonderful it was.
49:28And to, like I said, that last, that final sequence will stick with me because it was so
49:35beautifully done. And it's stories that I've been told by my wife and by my father,
49:40who was there when my mom took her last breath, and how they described it to me.
49:45I got to see that.
49:46So, yeah.
49:48I think I agree that it's not really jealous so much as you.
49:51I actually feel like, thank you.
49:55I get to end of something and I just go like, I don't feel like, oh, I wish I could have done
49:59that so much as I feel like, I want to watch things and I want to love them.
50:03John, I'm jealous of every television show I watch.
50:05You feel this way too.
50:07It's just this feeling of like, you know, I mean, that scene, my, you know,
50:12I was there when my father died and that's exactly what happened.
50:14I told you in the hallway outside, that's exactly what happened.
50:17But watching TV is like watching auditions. You, you, when you're on the other side,
50:22you're like, oh, they hate me. And you're like, I just want it to be good.
50:25Yeah.
50:25Right. And so when I watch TV, I'm like, I just want this to be good.
50:30I think when jealousy comes in is when something that you think is not that great is getting a
50:34lot of praise, right? That's a whole separate thing, which is like, why are they saying that's
50:39so good? It's like, just okay. But you know, but yeah, I mean, I,
50:45I, I, uh, okay. The last thing, the question is the last thing that makes us jealous. Is that
50:53what you said?
50:53No, the last show you watched that you were just like, damn.
50:57You know, I, you know, obviously we're in this time where the, like the wonder of watching Mike
51:03White braved into the White Lotus is so amazing. And I remember watching Enlightened
51:0810 or 12 years ago, which is just so beautiful. And it's about difficult women, which is something
51:17I love to watch, but it had so much humanity and it was so funny. Like Laura Dern in that role,
51:25you know, she's won a million awards for so many roles, but enlightened really was something. So it
51:31really knocked me out. And also the, the, I just wanted to say that, um,
51:38thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everyone's work at this table, but I was also the, the scene
51:47or the episode, uh, after the shooting, I, I just, I guess like both of your shows, just as a parent,
51:57I was like, it felt like such a, it felt like new ways of getting people to pay attention to things
52:03that people desperately need to pay attention to. And that episode after the school shooting,
52:10the way that you didn't kind of like proselytize about guns or, I mean, that it was just the actual
52:18human cost of these events. I just, and, and it was nonstop in this kind of like perfect way of just
52:28like, this is what, this is what this is. I just, I don't know that I, I was like so blown away by that.
52:35And, um, yeah, I, I just feel, I do, I feel, I feel grateful. I don't feel jealous.
52:43I, I think grateful is a beautiful place to end this. Um, thank you all so much for doing this.
52:49Thank you all for coming. Thank you for watching. Um, this has been fantastic.
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