- 2 days ago
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00Welcome to Twine Night. I'm Julia Zamiro. This is the show where we take a look at the
00:23myths, motives and the psychology that drives people to commit crimes. Tonight we're looking
00:28at the power of conformity and its role in crime, the social pressure that drives otherwise
00:33sensible people to make decisions they'll come to regret. Completely unrelated, let's
00:37meet who's decided to join us tonight. Dean at Griffith University, Professor of Criminology
00:43and a genuine crime expert. When she talks, even the suspects take notes. Please welcome
00:48Professor Danielle Reynolds. Danielle, how many people does crime actually affect?
00:56Crime affects everyone, Julia. That's why you should watch Crime Night so you can learn
01:00all about it. Wow. She's only been here two minutes and she's already doing some nice self-promotion.
01:05Thank you. He is a leading expert on fraud and white collar crime and unlike the criminals
01:11he studies, his credentials are legit. It's Dr. David Barclay. David, when you're at a dinner
01:20party and people find out you're a criminologist, do they treat you differently? Sometimes people
01:24start to look really nervous. Do they? Can you give advice?
01:28Oh, I try and avoid it. Wow, what are you doing here?
01:33Joining our experts, she's a comedian and podcaster who's never met a bad idea she couldn't be
01:38talked into. It's Claire Hooper.
01:43Claire, are you here tonight under peer pressure?
01:45No, I've just come to learn how to do crimes, Julia. He is a comedian, radio host and against
01:54all professional advice, he's here representing himself. Please welcome Nick Coney.
02:03Always represent yourself.
02:05Have you done it before? Have you represented yourself in court?
02:07No, but I did legal studies year 10 so I'm good to go.
02:09When you picture a criminal, you probably imagine a lone wolf. But often crime isn't
02:15about rebellion at all. It's about belonging. Because ultimately, we just want to be accepted.
02:20Right? That's what everyone else thinks. I mean, I'm happy to be wrong. Whatever you
02:23reckon's best.
02:25Conformity has been powerful since the beginning. In prehistoric times, outsiders perished, insiders
02:31got fire and shelter. Psychologists say we read rejection as danger and you don't have
02:36to look far to see social conformity everywhere. Standing ovations, waiting till everyone's
02:42food has arrived, and pretending we understood what that TV show Severance was all about.
02:46But what happens when that pressure pushes you to accept what's clearly wrong? That was
02:53the question posed in the 1950s by psychologist and bona fide life of the party, Solomon Ash.
02:59His now famous experiments showed just how quickly group pressure can steamroll your better judgment.
03:04The experiment you'll be taking part in today involves the perception of lengths of lines.
03:09Your task is a very simple one. You're to look at the line on the left and determine which
03:14of the three lines on the right is equal to it in length.
03:17Sorry to interrupt, but is anyone shocked that crime can be explained by a group of men alone
03:22in a room measuring lines? Sorry. Carry on.
03:26Only one of the people in the group is a real subject, the fifth person with the white
03:30t-shirt. The others have been told to give wrong answers on some of the trials.
03:35The experiment begins smoothly with everyone giving the correct answer, but then it takes
03:39a turn. Two. Two. Two.
03:47The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields to group influence.
03:52How does this experiment help us with our understanding of crime?
03:55So we're thinking about in terms of, say, the recent Royal Commission into Banking.
03:59Oh yeah, let's talk about the Royal Commission into Banking.
04:01Yes! I knew this was going to be fun.
04:04Yeah. Let's go.
04:05Well some of us think this is exciting, right?
04:07No, but we remember it so clearly and it was an absolute disaster.
04:11It was. It was an unmitigated disaster. So what it showed is that there was extensive
04:15offending throughout the financial services sector. Now when you think about it, lots and lots
04:19of people knew that this was going on. But very few actually put their hand up to say,
04:23hey, this is happening and it's wrong. Think about a new grad. So you've just finished university,
04:27you go get a job in a bank and you go in there and you think, hang on, this is wrong.
04:31But you see everyone else doing it. So you do. You start to question your own judgement.
04:35You think, hang on, this must be the way it's done.
04:37We don't do psychology experiments like this anymore. These are so beautiful and they're so simple
04:42because they highlight just these fundamental basic social norms that we all adhere to.
04:48All of our behaviour is underpinned by these basic principles.
04:52So a third of participants conformed with the clearly wrong answers that the group provided.
04:58And that pretty much suggests that in any situation, a third of us are likely to conform
05:03even when we know what we're conforming to is wrong.
05:06Now, is it that they're conforming or just a third of people need glasses?
05:10Let's expand it out a bit. Let's think about property crime and violent crime.
05:14You can think about it like this. Sometimes you hear cases where there's groups of people,
05:18it might be four or five people together, one of them decides to commit an offence
05:22and the others just go along with it. And part of this experiment helps to explain that
05:27because they're not prepared to put their hand up and say, hey, this isn't right.
05:31But there is a bit of a difference between measuring a line and crossing a line.
05:35The stakes aren't that high. You'd be like, yeah, I think they're all wrong.
05:39But also, who cares? Right?
05:42But we can conform in negative ways as well.
05:44You know, a classic example is staying silent when you see something bad happening.
05:49Silence can be conformity too.
05:51And we see this all the time, like on public transport and public places,
05:54where, and I'm sure lots of people have had the experience where you see something
05:57but you don't actually step in and intervene.
06:00I think of times that I've seen something like a little, you know,
06:02where you're keeping an eye on something that looks a little bit off,
06:05but you're also like, mate, I'm not the strongest person on this train.
06:09Have you ever looked around and seen all the big guys that are still sitting down?
06:12Yeah.
06:13They haven't intervened as well.
06:14Yeah, and I, um, I'm very unimpressed by this.
06:18Ash proved we'll follow the crowd even when the answer's obviously wrong.
06:25Online, the crowd just got bigger and way more persuasive.
06:29With more, here's Lou Wall.
06:31It's no secret humans love to conform.
06:34I literally love it. I love it.
06:36Yeah, no, I don't mind it myself.
06:38Back in the analogue days, it was all about getting the same haircut as everyone else
06:42or pretending to love that one show we were all talking about.
06:45How good was Friends last night?
06:46Stuff's so good.
06:48Your hair looks great.
06:50Your hair looks great.
06:51Now, conformity has had a digital glow up.
06:54Literally, it's all like, share, repeat algorithms.
06:57Love it when we copy each other.
06:59It keeps us trending, even for a hot minute.
07:01Like and subscribe, guys.
07:03Who are you talking to?
07:04You know, everyone.
07:06Whether it is swallowing a spoonful of cinnamon, pouring an ice bucket over our head,
07:15or eating a Tide Pod.
07:17Wellness has gone too far.
07:19No!
07:20You know what happened last time.
07:22They went viral.
07:23And they went to hospital.
07:25Social media has embraced our desire to conform and amplified it.
07:29It's so easy to get caught up.
07:31One post and boom, everyone's doing it.
07:34Some of us is still paying for it.
07:36Water.
07:37I need water.
07:38But while we're all still busy planking and flossing,
07:41social media algorithms are busy feeding us the next online craze.
07:45It's like an online applause track.
07:47It keeps us coming back for more.
07:48And we do.
07:49Thank you at p slash underscore 90 99.
07:53We're all hardwired to fit in and find our community.
07:56Whether that's watching Friends or sucking down some cinnamon.
08:00Online conformity is just the new frontier.
08:03Anyone for Kool-Aid?
08:04No.
08:05No.
08:06Being a part of something bigger than yourself feels nice.
08:13But on the spectrum from a horse riding club to a club that sells horse,
08:18when does your squad become a gang?
08:20Australians are fascinated by criminal culture.
08:23From the moment Ned Kelly put a bucket on his head,
08:25criminal cliques, gangs, and underworld associations have dominated our headlines
08:30and even kept whole TV networks afloat.
08:33In the suburbs of 70s Melbourne, one such group rose to prominence.
08:37A gang so menacing, so ominous, the very sight of them struck fear into the public's heart.
08:43Okay, sorry, we should have given you a warning before showing you that.
08:52The Sharpies, named after their signature sharp outfits,
08:55and I'd imagine the type of pain those jeans cause them,
08:58were a teenage subculture that exploded onto the streets of Melbourne.
09:02Predating punk, they were a uniquely Aussie movement,
09:05and the conformity was strong, with their own dance, tattoos,
09:08and a very precise uniform.
09:10Another important marker of the Sharps, the hair.
09:14Who cut your hair?
09:15Grant.
09:16Who cut your hair?
09:17Grant.
09:18Who cut your hair?
09:19Grant.
09:20Grant did not cut my hair.
09:23The Sharpies were a reaction to the suburban status quo.
09:27Proudly working class, they rejected the blonde surfies, the carefree hippies,
09:31and the soft vibes of their mortal enemies, the mods.
09:34Were the Sharpies a gang though?
09:36The media sure thought so.
09:38At most of the discotheques and dancers,
09:40there's the danger of brawls between the Sharpies and the mods.
09:43How vicious do these fights get?
09:45They kick.
09:46When a chap goes to the ground, he can be knocked out and they'll still kick.
09:48There's been already one killed, he was killed that way.
09:50He was kicked after he went to the ground.
09:53The Sharpies didn't start as a gang.
09:55They were a movement, so how did they become violent?
09:58Their version of events is that their violence was simply retaliatory.
10:01So they were actually the subject of violence themselves
10:03and their violence was just in response to that.
10:05And they were fighting over things like access to public spaces.
10:08So like the clocks at Flinders Street,
10:10they were fighting over who could have access to that space.
10:13What?
10:14It's just so...
10:16I love stuff about gangs and this does not sound like gang.
10:21I grew up in Hopper's Crossing, like mates were in gangs
10:25and I never heard any of this chat.
10:27What gangs are in your area?
10:30Well, there was one in Hopper's Crossing called the HCB Boys.
10:33Hopper's Crossing Boys.
10:35That's original.
10:36They were a little bit dangerous,
10:38but that's more like machetes and guns and less...
10:41And...
10:42Grant cut my hair.
10:44Watch out!
10:46It was a bit of a moral panic, to be honest.
10:49So a moral panic is this exaggerated fear,
10:52usually driven by the media and to some extent public figures,
10:55around a particular group or thing being seen as a threat to society
10:59and threat to societal values.
11:00And we see moral panics all the time.
11:02If you go back 20 years, hoodies.
11:04There was moral panic around hoodies.
11:05And some shopping centres even banned the wearing of hoodies
11:08in their shopping centre.
11:09Yeah, didn't have the courage to ban hoodies though, did they?
11:11Daniel, why do people feel compelled to join groups like these?
11:17You know, these types of groups really created this space
11:20where people who were marginalised
11:22could feel like they had a place where they belonged.
11:25They created a sense of community
11:26that people felt like they could belong to.
11:29The irony with these groups is that
11:31they were rebelling against societal norms
11:34only to join a group that created norms
11:37that they all had to conform to anyway.
11:40So even when we're rebelling, we're conforming.
11:42Yeah. And conformity to group standards
11:43leads to some of the most serious crime that we know about.
11:46I mean, think about the mafia and conformity.
11:49That's like a classic example of Ash's conformity studies,
11:53but on crack.
11:54You think about the characteristics of the mafia,
11:56a really strong sense of group identity.
11:58They have these really strict codes
12:00that all members have to conform to unanimously.
12:04And you think about the implications of non-conformity for that group.
12:08In the Ash study, a lot of people conformed
12:11and the implications were feeling socially isolated
12:14and feeling socially embarrassed.
12:16Like the implications for non-conformity in groups like the mafia
12:19are way more severe.
12:21Being ostracised from your family, violence, and sometimes even death.
12:26Claire, I don't know why.
12:28I wonder that you might have been part of a gang or a group.
12:31Oh!
12:32I mean, I feel like, um, comedy's a bit of a gang, don't you think?
12:36You know, like, because, like, think of how worried
12:38your friends and family were when you started.
12:40Mmm.
12:41But when the money starts to roll in,
12:43they stop asking questions.
12:45It's time for our experiment of the week.
12:49They say looking up is contagious.
12:54One glance at the sky and suddenly you're worried
12:56you've missed a shooting star, a falling air conditioner,
12:59or a billionaire re-entering the atmosphere.
13:02So we thought, what happens if we start the crowd?
13:06We sent three Crime Night actors out to look up
13:09at absolutely nothing.
13:11Will anyone else follow suit?
13:13Let's find out.
13:32If you're hearing a bit of a rumble in the room,
13:53it might be because some of you are starting to recognise
13:55our three friends.
13:57We planted them in the foyer earlier tonight,
14:00just to see if anyone would follow their lead.
14:04It didn't take long before a few of you started to look up.
14:12And shortly after,
14:14the conformity became contagious.
14:17Danielle, did this audience experiment confirm what we already know?
14:31This is based off of a classic experiment
14:33called the street corner experiment.
14:35It's a classic study in conformity,
14:37in showing that we definitely follow the crowd
14:41and the size of the crowd matters.
14:43David, do we follow or mimic any old person?
14:46No, no.
14:47So in another street level study,
14:48researchers looked at who people follow jaywalking.
14:51And what they found, it's quite interesting,
14:53what they found is that people who appear to be of higher status,
14:55if a guy's wearing a suit and tie for example,
14:57if they jaywalked first,
14:59other people were more likely to jaywalk following them
15:02than if they were a person wearing normal street clothes.
15:04Do you think that's because someone in a suit you might look at
15:06as more risk averse?
15:08You think they're not someone that's just going to walk out,
15:10have no idea what's going on?
15:11They're in a suit.
15:12I've got to follow you now, wherever.
15:14What, do you want me to buy Bitcoin?
15:16No, alright.
15:17You've got a nice jacket on.
15:19We just proved the experiment.
15:21That was our experiment of the week.
15:27Twelve strangers, one courtroom
15:29and a decision that could change someone's life forever.
15:32That's the power vested to a jury.
15:34Juries bring to a case their personal perspectives
15:36and their varying experiences of life,
15:38but basically they're just a potluck of people.
15:41Everyone brings something to the table
15:43and not all of it agrees with you.
15:49But when you ask strangers to reach a verdict,
15:51the pressure to go along with the group increases
15:53and worryingly, even in a jury room,
15:55the urge to fit in can shape the outcome.
15:58Typically, juries are expected to reach a unanimous decision.
16:01In 19th century England, those who couldn't
16:04were often denied food and heat
16:06and sometimes even paraded around in a wagon
16:09until they came to a verdict.
16:12I'm glad you all think that's hilarious.
16:16Starved, frozen and wheeled through London,
16:18the original 19th century Contiki tour.
16:25In Australia, the law forbids jurors
16:27from speaking out about their experiences,
16:29so we don't get to see what happens behind closed doors.
16:32But the SBS series, The Jury, Death on the Staircase,
16:35offers a rare glimpse.
16:37The program recreated a real-life manslaughter case
16:40using the original evidence and arguments
16:42presented in court,
16:43but with a mock jury made up of everyday Australians
16:46that we could observe.
16:48It might only be a social experiment,
16:50but the tension? Very real.
16:52All the jurors, apart from Craig,
16:54want to deliver a verdict of not guilty.
16:57Can they convince him to change his mind?
17:00Previously, you said,
17:01I'm highly unlikely to change my mind,
17:03but you didn't say impossible.
17:04Oh, Jesus.
17:05So what would cause you to have doubt?
17:07Nothing.
17:08So it's impossible?
17:09The only reason I'd change my mind
17:11is I'd want to go home.
17:12One juror held out,
17:13but in the end,
17:14it wasn't the evidence that changed his mind.
17:16It was the pressure he felt to agree with the group.
17:19Okay.
17:20News win.
17:21He's guilty.
17:22Let's go home.
17:23I said,
17:24News win.
17:25He's guilty.
17:26Let's go.
17:27Not guilty.
17:28Sorry.
17:29I'm just angry at myself because I caved.
17:30Now, yeah, I felt like I'd let a criminal go free.
17:33Yeah, absolutely.
17:34Now, that was a recreation and a mock case,
17:37but he still feels the effect of what he's done.
17:39He didn't stick to his own beliefs.
17:41Danielle, how often do juries feel pressure to reach a verdict?
17:45It's impossible to say because we're not allowed to talk to jurors.
17:48The law prohibits that,
17:49but there was one study done in Western Australia,
17:52and the study showed that 21% of jurors,
17:55real jurors who participated on juries,
17:58talked about the fact that they did feel pressure
18:01to come to a particular decision,
18:03and something like three-quarters of them
18:05said that they experienced pressure from other jurors.
18:08There are quite a few studies done,
18:10particularly in the U.S., with mock juries,
18:12and they showed that 40% of jurors reported
18:15that they felt pressure to vote against their conscience
18:18just so that they could come to a unanimous verdict.
18:21Why can't we just have...
18:23Why can't we just go with a majority rule?
18:24There's 12 people in a jury.
18:26Why not, if there's just seven that agree,
18:28we can go with that?
18:29I think unanimity,
18:30like, when you have 12 people on a jury
18:33who unanimously agree on a verdict,
18:35it gives people greater confidence
18:37in the verdict that's delivered.
18:38Right, so if somebody's going to get, like,
18:4010 years in prison,
18:42if 12 people say they're guilty,
18:44it feels a bit icky if they get 10 years in prison
18:47because seven people said they were guilty.
18:49Is that what you're saying?
18:50Exactly.
18:51I think people have greater confidence, right?
18:53They say, hey, 12 out of 12 people,
18:5512 people from completely different backgrounds
18:57have sat in a room,
18:59have deliberated the facts of the case
19:01and have come to a unanimous verdict.
19:03I think people feel much more confident in that verdict.
19:06Maybe they'd feel even better if they knew
19:08those people had been carried around in a car.
19:12Deprived lunch sandwiches.
19:14Yeah.
19:15How do you deal with the Craig problem?
19:16So, we get around a couple of ways.
19:18So, one is the directions that the judge gives a jury.
19:21So, making that clear about what they have to deliberate
19:23and how.
19:24But the other thing is most jurists,
19:26in fact, all Australian jurisdictions now,
19:28have the ability to go for majority judgements
19:31rather than unanimous.
19:32In a majority judgement, there's sort of room for dissenters,
19:36like one or two dissenters.
19:37But there's rules around this.
19:38So, for example, in New South Wales,
19:40if a jury's deliberated for at least eight hours
19:43and the judge is satisfied that they can't reach
19:45a unanimous verdict,
19:47they can actually allow a majority verdict.
19:50So, one or two people to dissent.
19:52But still, for charges of murder and treason,
19:54you still require that unanimous verdict.
19:57You could go to jail because 12 people just got tired.
20:00Some of these juries deliberate for weeks
20:03and they just come back every day into that jury room
20:05to continue going through the evidence and discussing
20:07and that sort of thing.
20:09So, it's not a quick process.
20:11If you think about the practicalities of it,
20:13like, digging your heels in and being like,
20:15no, let's keep debating this because I don't agree with you guys.
20:18Like, practically, like, this takes so much time
20:21out of your real life.
20:22How many people would do that?
20:23But I'm doing it for my fellow citizens.
20:25Mm-hmm.
20:26But, yeah, that's right.
20:27Tara and I are going to start a club.
20:29It's a wonderful thing to do.
20:30A little break from your everyday life.
20:32Yes.
20:33Opportunity to serve your community.
20:34Free horse and carriage ride.
20:36What's not to love?
20:38Hands up if you've ever been asked for jury duty.
20:41Oh.
20:42Oh, wow.
20:43Oh, my goodness.
20:44That's so many people.
20:45And who actually got to go?
20:47Oh, you can't say.
20:48Can't say.
20:49Almost got you.
20:51We're actually the police.
20:54Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is not conform,
21:00especially when you know something is wrong.
21:02Remember cigarettes?
21:03Yep.
21:09There was a time when they were practically part of the food pyramid.
21:12It wasn't just common.
21:14It was cool.
21:15Parents smoked.
21:16Teachers smoked.
21:17Doctors smoked.
21:18We knew they were bad for us, but we also knew we could quit any time.
21:22They weren't addictive.
21:23Just ask seven CEOs from the world's biggest tobacco companies in 1994.
21:28I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:31I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:34And I, too, believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:38Seven CEOs, if you ask me the worst of the 12 days of Christmas.
21:43In front of the world, they denied the truth.
21:50Nicotine was dangerous and addictive.
21:52But it was also making them buckets of cash.
21:54It felt like the glory days of dart punching would never end
21:57until one of their own went rogue.
21:59This is whistleblower Jeffrey Weigand.
22:01Weigand was a scientist and an executive inside one of those very tobacco companies.
22:06He knew the truth, that he was working in a business built on addiction.
22:09Nicotine was not addictive.
22:12Cigarettes were not a health threat.
22:14White was not white.
22:15And I was living a lie.
22:16When he realised how far they were willing to go to keep people hooked on nicotine,
22:20Weigand gave interviews and testified in court.
22:23Like so many whistleblowers, telling the truth came at a huge personal cost.
22:27Bic Tobacco went for Weigand.
22:29Hard.
22:30He was fired, surveilled, smeared, sued, and his family were threatened.
22:34I was not protected by any whistleblower statute.
22:37And I had no recourse except the truth.
22:40Many have gone through the hellish, life-changing experience like mine.
22:44Whistleblowers like Weigand are responsible for detecting over 40% of corporate fraud in the US.
22:50That's more than audits and regulators combined.
22:53Weigand's evidence helped trigger one of the biggest legal settlements in history
22:57and millions of people quit smoking.
22:59One person, swimming against the tide of conformity.
23:02Geoffrey Weigand was the straw that broke Camel's back.
23:06And for those of you under 30, Camel is a brand of cigarette.
23:18And for those under 20, cigarettes are a kind of bank.
23:23David, how important is whistleblowing?
23:25Well, whistleblowing and whistleblowers are incredibly important.
23:28Quite often, the only reason that wrongdoing comes to our attention is because of whistleblowers.
23:33But these people go out on a massive limb.
23:36Quite often, they're breaching non-disclosure agreements, breaching company policies.
23:40Weigand ended up getting sued by his employer because he breached a confidentiality agreement.
23:45So there's a whole lot of obstacles putting people's way to whistleblow.
23:49In Australia, it's a bit cultural as well, but we don't dob.
23:52Even from little kids, we're taught not to dob.
23:55And whistleblowing is still sort of thought about in terms of being dobbing.
23:58But there's a huge difference between that kind of dobbing idea in a playground
24:02and this monumental thing you might do to literally change the course of history when it comes to something like cigarettes.
24:08Yeah, absolutely.
24:09But it's so ingrained from so young that you just don't tell.
24:12Now, some organisations try and overcome this.
24:15So they'll create, like, whistleblower hotlines where, you know, it might be like a 1-800 number that you can call.
24:19Come on.
24:20No-one's fallen for that.
24:21Let's go straight to HR.
24:24You hope not.
24:25Yeah.
24:26But there are some strategies put in place to try and overcome it.
24:30But there's still massive obstacles to people actually whistleblowing.
24:34Now, one of them is, of course, that people sometimes lose their careers.
24:38Like, in some industries, if you whistleblow, you'll never work in that industry again.
24:42And that's why in the US, whistleblowers are actually paid.
24:45So whistleblowers will get between 10% and 30% of the amount recovered paid to them.
24:50So the Securities and Exchange Commission in the US up to about 2023 had paid out almost $2 billion to whistleblowers.
24:59I need a job in a dodgy big American company.
25:02Danielle, are some people more likely to be whistleblowers than others?
25:07There are some characteristics that define whistleblowers.
25:11High or strong moral conviction and moral courage.
25:15So an unwillingness to compromise their moral principles.
25:19High levels of self-efficacy and what we call internal locus of control,
25:23which pretty much just means that there is a high likelihood in their belief that their actions will result in an outcome.
25:30And I think the last one, which is my favorite, is that they tend to be low to moderate on what we call in psychology,
25:36agreeableness, which means that they're willing to be disliked.
25:39They have no issues challenging people even if it means that it's going to result in conflict.
25:45And that's what ASH's conformity studies show, right?
25:48That's one of the reasons why they're so special is that one of the powerful results from those studies
25:53is that it only takes one person to dissent, one person to refuse to conform to change the tide for all the people that come after.
26:02We know this takes an incredible toll on people.
26:05So it's not just financial, it's also personal.
26:07So if you think about the woman who was one of the main whistleblowers in the Robodeck case,
26:11you know, a decade later she's still talking about the toll that's taken on her in terms of watching herself lose a career,
26:19but then also the personal toll on her private life.
26:22If we see injustice occurring, David, Danielle, how can we give ourselves the confidence to actually speak up?
26:28We need to talk to other people.
26:30Like if you're embedded in an organisation and in a culture where something's wrong and everyone's doing it,
26:35if you're at least having that conversation with friends about, hey, this doesn't feel right, what do you think?
26:40You're sort of building that social support around yourself to actually go, you know what, I'm right.
26:44You know, this is wrong and I'm going to blow the whistle.
26:46But how many people actually do find that kind of, you know, moral courage, if that's what you want to call it?
26:51And I mean, courage, full stop.
26:53Yeah, courage, full stop. I agree.
26:55I think that it's rare.
26:57I think that the thing that research shows is that the majority of people are perfectly happy not to intervene when they see something going wrong.
27:05But there is a minority of people, you can think of them as superheroes, who will intervene regardless of the context
27:12and regardless of the risk that it poses to them and their personal safety.
27:16Claire, what would you want to blow the whistle on?
27:19I mean, I don't like the repercussions of this, but all right.
27:26Making TV is really easy and we get paid too much.
27:29They even sent a taxi for me!
27:34You'd have to say, maybe not on ABC and SBS.
27:40Nick, what do you want to blow the whistle on?
27:44I think blokes that play golf just don't like their family.
27:48It's a waste of time and it sucks.
27:57And I'm putting an end to it.
27:59Please thank our guests, Claire Hooper and Nick Cody.
28:03And of course to our resident experts, Professor Danielle Reynold and Dr David Bartlett.
28:11This week on Crimelight we found that whether it's fitting in or staying quiet, conformity can lead to everything from fraud to bad verdicts to regrettable haircuts.
28:24It's powerful, no doubt.
28:26But is it more powerful than speaking up?
28:28Hard to say.
28:29I'll probably wait and see what everyone else thinks.
28:32I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:33Goodnight.
28:34judgments tonight.
28:35Done.
Be the first to comment