- 48 minutes ago
The Grammys are music’s biggest night, but how are the votes really counted, and who decides which artists take home the trophies? Harvey Mason Jr., Grammy-nominated producer, songwriter, and CEO of the Recording Academy, pulls back the curtain on how the Academy works, from membership to voting processes and AI’s role in modern music. He joins host Kristin Robinson to unpack his journey from producing hits for Brandy, Destiny’s Child, Michael Jackson, and Toni Braxton to leading music’s most influential institution, all while getting his Grammys knowledge put to the test. Mason explains the challenges of ensuring fair representation across genres, and how the Academy is evolving to serve music and musicians in a rapidly changing industry. He also reflects on moving from creative work to executive leadership, the collaborative process that has defined his career and what it takes to keep the Grammys credible, inclusive, and impactful.
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00:00:00The Grammy Awards. As they say, it's music's biggest night. I mean, where else are you going
00:00:04to see Lady Gaga hatching from an egg or see Tracy Chapman uniting with Luke Combs or see the entire
00:00:10lineage of hip hop take the stage together on the genre's 50th anniversary? Although the awards are
00:00:15not until February, this is actually the time when the final round of Grammy voting is about to take
00:00:19place and the preparation for the awards are in full swing. And as a podcast that's dedicated to
00:00:24giving you a peek behind the curtain of the music business, I actually think there couldn't be a
00:00:27better time than right now to go inside the event with my very special guest today. Today we have
00:00:32on the show Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr. Welcome back to On The Record, a music business
00:00:42podcast from Billboard and Sickbird Productions. As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and I am
00:00:48thrilled to have Harvey Mason Jr. on the show today to talk about the ins and the outs of the Grammys.
00:00:52Harvey got his start in the music business as a songwriter and producer. Both of his parents were
00:00:57musicians themselves, but Harvey Jr. made a name for himself in the late 90s working with talents
00:01:02like Brandy, Destiny's Child, Whitney Houston, Tony Braxton, and Michael Jackson. He worked on
00:01:08iconic soundtracks like Dreamgirls, Straight Outta Compton, and Pitch Perfect 1 and 2. Now he's
00:01:14helping celebrate his fellow musicians in his role at the helm of the Recording Academy and Music Cares,
00:01:19a post that he's held since about five years ago. And today the Recording Academy looks very
00:01:24different than it used to when Harvey took the CEO gig. Back then, the Academy was coming off of
00:01:29major scandals. So since then, there's been a lot of course correction by Harvey and the Academy
00:01:34to make things different. The Academy has made a number of changes to diversify its voting body,
00:01:40for one example, and it's opened up a number of new categories. This includes African music,
00:01:45Best Score soundtrack for video games and other visual media, and Songwriter of the Year,
00:01:50among others, to represent a wider swath of musical talent. Today we'll cover a lot of
00:01:55topics with Harvey, including how Grammy voting actually works, what he's changed within the
00:01:59Academy's membership, and what it's like to lead this organization into a much more globalized
00:02:04and fragmented music world. So without further ado, let's bring him in. Please welcome to On The
00:02:08Record, Harvey Mason Jr. Harvey Mason Jr., welcome to On The Record. Thanks for being here.
00:02:13Thanks, Kristen. This is good. I said On The Record, okay.
00:02:15On The Record.
00:02:16That's probably like a journalistic term as opposed to a music term. Well, actually,
00:02:20we still call them records.
00:02:21It's double entendre.
00:02:23Okay.
00:02:23As a songwriter, I hope you can appreciate that.
00:02:25I love it.
00:02:26It's, yeah, On The Record, journalistic term, but also records. Recording Academy.
00:02:32I know. Something to think about.
00:02:33There you go. Well, I'm so excited that you're here today. I know some people who are listening
00:02:38to this are probably like, why are we doing the Grammy episode now and not in February?
00:02:44Let's get it started.
00:02:45I know. We're kicking off Grammy season.
00:02:47The season is here.
00:02:48Yeah. But I do think like if you're in the music industry, you're starting to really hear
00:02:52about the Grammys right now.
00:02:53Yeah. Especially with nominations coming out and Latin Grammys and now voting is about
00:02:57to start in a bit. So yeah, it's getting exciting.
00:03:00For those who are tuning in who don't really understand the timeline of like how we lead
00:03:04up to the Grammys every year, what's the process of getting into it? The voting periods
00:03:08and all that.
00:03:08So you enter your music. It has to have come out in a certain period of time. That process
00:03:13goes on for a few months. People enter their music. It goes under the first round ballot.
00:03:19The ballot opens up. You can go on your phone now. It's incredible. You go on an app and you
00:03:23scroll through. You look at the 22,000 or so entries. And now with our process, you're only
00:03:28voting in certain categories. So you don't have to worry about listening to every single entrant.
00:03:33But you are looking at the genres of music that you might have some expertise or some
00:03:38experience in when you're voting in those areas. And then you're voting in the general
00:03:41field, of course, the record of the year, song of the year, album of the year, best new
00:03:43artist, songwriter of the year, and producer of the year. Everyone votes in those. And
00:03:47that's the first round of voting. The first round of voting closes. And then this year
00:03:50was, I think, November 10th. We announced the nominations. The nominations came out across
00:03:55our 95 categories. All the nominees hopefully were excited. And some people that weren't
00:04:00nominated were disappointed, sadly, because I hate that part. But then the second round
00:04:06of voting opens. And that's open for approximately three weeks. Again, same process. The nominations
00:04:11come onto your phone or your app. You can go through the portal and register to vote.
00:04:15And you vote on the nominees and we pick a winner. And this year on February 1st, the winners
00:04:20are announced. And again, we go through the process of a bunch of people being really excited
00:04:24and some people being disappointed. But all of us at the end of the day getting the time
00:04:29and the season to celebrate music and to celebrate all these incredible artists and talented people
00:04:33that do what they do. And for me, I come from the music space. My background is in music.
00:04:37I'm a songwriter and a producer. And I hold a special place for people who make art of any
00:04:42kind because I just really think truly, and specifically music, has such a place in our society,
00:04:48in our world to make a difference. Maybe it's a little bit corny, but there's nothing like music.
00:04:55I mean, I love food. I love sports. I love all the things that bring people together,
00:04:59but nothing, movies, TV, but nothing does it like music. You hear a beat, you might not even
00:05:04understand the language, but it does something to you. It's magical. It's medicine. So for us,
00:05:11Grammy season, for me, it's the best time of year. It's like Christmas for musicians.
00:05:15It does feel almost primal. Like music is truly across every single society, all ages.
00:05:22Throughout history.
00:05:22Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like you don't, you don't really get that kind of an experience with film
00:05:27as much as I love film. That's probably my other artistic category. What? I don't even know what
00:05:33I'm saying, but like type of art that I really enjoy and know a lot about. But yeah, I mean,
00:05:38there's nothing like music.
00:05:39There's nothing like music and it is primal and regardless of technology and changes over time,
00:05:44something about an artist who's a storyteller, something about what they've been through in
00:05:49their life and how that resonates with a listener. It's unlike movies because, you know, everyone
00:05:54is acting. Everyone's playing a role and they do incredible work in that space. Actors are so
00:06:00talented as well. But for me, if you're watching a movie, you know, that's not what that person's
00:06:05gone through, unless it's a documentary or maybe a biopic, something like that. But with music,
00:06:10every lyric, every song has to mean something to the artist that's singing, or at least I hope it
00:06:14does. And that transfers and that translates to listeners. And when you find that artist that says
00:06:20something that either you've been through or you're going through or something that you thought
00:06:24nobody else felt, and then you hear it in a song, that makes an impact.
00:06:29Yeah. And I mean, as a songwriter producer, you had a very long career doing that and you could just
00:06:34keep doing that. And I imagine going and getting more and more involved in the Recording Academy
00:06:40and eventually becoming CEO, like that really flips the switch on like whatever the left brain,
00:06:45right brain of you is. But like that's moving from a very creative career to one where it involves a
00:06:51lot of like business kind of management type stuff. I'm wondering, what was that transition like for
00:06:57you? We call them suits.
00:06:58Yes. Yeah. You're the suit now. You're a cool suit though. Yeah.
00:07:03It's something that's been a part of my life early on as I started making music. I was always
00:07:08trying to envision building a company around it and how could I create an asset, whether that was
00:07:13publishing or a label, both of which I've had, and build a production company and create intellectual
00:07:18property and figure out how to leverage that and monetize it. So it's always been a part of my
00:07:22company and my upbringing as a musician, as a creator. But you're right, it is two very different
00:07:28skill sets. But the thing that I find across both is the ability to listen and collaborate and work
00:07:35with others and find solutions, problem solving. This is what I do in the studio every day. You're
00:07:40making a song, you're playing the piano and you're like, oh wait, this chord's not working. Let me try
00:07:44this. And somebody comes over and says, hey, have you tried this? And you work together to find
00:07:48solutions. So I love that about my work as an executive. I also come from a long line of
00:07:53basketball teams. I've played basketball my whole life. And even in college where I went to the
00:07:58Final Four and played with a team with incredible athletes and great leaders. The lessons that I
00:08:02learned from my Hall of Fame coach, Lute Olsen, really have served me well as I've tried to do
00:08:07anything in my life, whether that's running the academy or collaborate in music or raise a family.
00:08:13And so what was your first memory of the Grammys? If you can think back to being a kid,
00:08:18I know your parents were musicians, so I imagine the Grammys were always on every year.
00:08:22They were on, but my dad was nominated. And my dad's been nominated seven times,
00:08:26more than me, by the way. I'm so bummed.
00:08:28A little rivalry there?
00:08:30Big time. He's had seven nominations. So I remember each time he's been nominated and
00:08:33how excited he was and how honored he was. And as a kid, you're like, oh my God,
00:08:37my dad's nominated for something cool and maybe he's going to be on TV. So I remember my folks
00:08:41getting dressed up to go to the events. And it's been a part of my family since I was a young child.
00:08:46And then also just a lover of music. I've always watched the show and I've seen the performances.
00:08:51I've seen the magic on that stage over the years and the people that have been put together
00:08:56that have sung just iconic classic copyrights and songs that I've never been able to forget.
00:09:04And that stays with me. So it is interesting to now be in the position that I'm in to be
00:09:09working so closely with the Academy and especially with the TV show. And Grammy season comes around,
00:09:15I'm like, I remember watching the show and now we're making it.
00:09:17Part of the Grammys is televised. Part of it is not. And there's, you know, kind of two separate
00:09:22sections. And, you know, my first memories of the Grammys were just being a kid in Texas and
00:09:28watching it on my TV. How do you guys make the determination of what ends up on the televised
00:09:33part, the primetime part of the Grammys and what doesn't? Because I know you're probably trying to
00:09:37balance also having the iconic performances and also getting some good categories in there.
00:09:42So what's that process like? It's iterative. We change every year. We evolve the process every
00:09:48year. We think about what makes the best TV show. Sometimes people receiving the awards and giving
00:09:54the speeches as, as entertaining as some of the performances. So we try and balance that.
00:09:58We're looking at genre diversity. We're looking at, uh, which different categories have great,
00:10:04you know, nominees in them. But generally it's about 10 awards on the Sunday telecast. And then the
00:10:10other 85 we give away in a, in a show called the premiere ceremony, which is live streamed,
00:10:15but it's not on television as of yet. Hopefully that will change, but it's a constant challenge
00:10:21because there's so much great music. There's so many talented people. And you're like, I want all
00:10:25of them to have the spotlight. I want all of them to be on the show. And I, there's a moment of
00:10:29discovery when you see a new artist that you never heard of. And you're like, oh my gosh, that's
00:10:33incredible. I want to go find all that music. And I love that. I remember as a kid being able to do
00:10:37that, but there's also the time where you just want to see all the biggest stars in the world,
00:10:42singing the songs that you love and know already. So that's another challenge to get that, find that
00:10:47sweet spot. Yeah. I mean, so the Grammys this year, hopefully God willing are going to proceed
00:10:53as normal. I feel like the last few years have been all over the place. You had the pandemic
00:10:58and then you have the Vegas Grammys, which I guess is still a pandemic.
00:11:01Yeah. COVID, Grammys, fires. We've had a lot of last minute issues. So I am going to just keep my
00:11:10fingers crossed and imagine this is going to be, this will be our first, I won't call it uneventful
00:11:15because it's going to be a massive event, but hopefully this will be our first event where we
00:11:18don't have an outside force affecting how we produce the show or the things that we're thinking
00:11:23about putting on the show. Man, that's crazy. Cause you, you took the helm in 2021.
00:11:272020. 2020. Oh God. Jeez. Yeah. It's been a wild run. Yeah. And so over the last five years,
00:11:36you guys have changed the voting body a lot. Um, I think the stat is 66% of voters this year
00:11:43have been new since 2019. Is that correct? You've got it. You've done the research.
00:11:47Yeah. I tried. I try on the other stat that's interesting is a hundred percent of our voters
00:11:52have been requalified. So everybody who's a member and who's voting of our 15,000 roughly
00:11:57voting members, we've looked at their credits. We've made sure they have relevant credits within
00:12:02the last five years and they know the music they're working in the music because that's
00:12:06the cool thing about the, the Grammys they're voted on by all music professionals. It's no
00:12:11journalists, no, no offense. It's no popularity. It's not about how many streams you have, how many
00:12:19followers you have, or, uh, people's opinions of you in the general consumer audience. It's about
00:12:24your peers, the professional music people really listening, really evaluating the music and nominating
00:12:29the people they think have done it best in that year. And it's, it's subjective. So it's impossible,
00:12:33but we wanted to make sure the membership was relevant and knew what was going on in the
00:12:38different genres of music so they could vote accurately and have good outcomes.
00:12:41And in November, you guys announced the nominees, which is super exciting. It's a, it's exciting
00:12:46every year. One of the things I noticed about the nominees this year, um, are that, you know,
00:12:50country music had a huge year in terms of popularity, but it didn't have a huge showing
00:12:55in the categories this year. I'm sure that happens from time to time with various genres.
00:13:00How do you guys like mitigate those kinds of things when they happen? Um, how do you make sure
00:13:06that there is good genre representation across the board in the general categories?
00:13:10We don't, that happens by the voters and the way that we try and not mitigate it, but make sure that
00:13:16we are having what we think are equitable outcomes is make sure our voting body represents, uh, or is
00:13:22representative of the different genres of music and the different constituencies and groups of people
00:13:26that are making that music. So we make sure that if we're under indexing in a certain area,
00:13:32we go into those communities and say, Hey, we need you to be a part of our organization. If you're a
00:13:36professional, please join. And we do a lot of outreach. We do a lot of communication, but I also
00:13:40want to say that as much as countries not represented in the general field, the countries represented so
00:13:45well across the ballot and across our 95 categories, there's great country music being made this year
00:13:50and great nominees. I think we're going to have, uh, some really, really exciting. I don't like to call
00:13:55them races, but some really exciting, um, I guess selections between different people and categories
00:14:02that I don't think there's a bad choice in the bunch. And with those general categories,
00:14:07like I think a best new artist, sometimes you often have like a really wide swath of genres that
00:14:11are represented in that category, but sometimes there's like a few artists that really, I guess,
00:14:16raised their hand that year that are really doing well, but they're all in the same genre and
00:14:20probably have similar peers and fans. Does that sometimes like divide up the vote? I hear some people
00:14:27like kind of. Yeah. Sometimes I would imagine just anecdotally, we hear that votes get split
00:14:33because of exactly what you said. There are people that have shared, I won't say fans, but people that
00:14:38support their music that are members. And then an outlier would come in and maybe win a category,
00:14:44but we don't see that data. I never asked to see from Deloitte who's first or second or third. We just
00:14:50get an envelope with the winners. So we don't really know how those outcomes happen.
00:14:54Yeah. I think it would drive me insane if I knew like who was second place.
00:14:58Yeah, of course. You'd be so bummed. You'd be so bummed. And as far as splitting the vote though,
00:15:03it's got to be a real thing. You know, people who love this or who love that. And so we'll see,
00:15:08it's always interesting to see the outcomes based on our membership and who they're going to vote for.
00:15:12And any given year, it could be anything. It's so subjective, whether it's the, you know,
00:15:17an artist that's been extremely successful and popular where the streaming numbers are through the roof
00:15:22or there's just a new artist that's super cool and amazing and doing something different.
00:15:26And that resonates with the voters. So it just changes year to year.
00:15:29Yeah. And I imagine that sometimes voters forget to vote. Like, do you ever have like issues with
00:15:37people just not showing up, you know, during the time to actually cast their vote? And how do you
00:15:43deal with that? Do they end up getting kicked out of the Academy at a certain point from inactivity or?
00:15:47So we market and push to our members pretty consistently and maybe in an aggravating way
00:15:55at a certain point to make sure they're voting and say, Hey, voting's open. Hey, have you voted?
00:15:59Hey, voting closing, make sure you vote. So that's what we do about it. We don't kick people out right
00:16:05now if they don't vote. Sometimes I tend to think maybe we should because voting is a big part of
00:16:10your obligation as a member. As a member, there are a lot of different things that are valuable to you
00:16:15and can be valuable to you, furthering your career, learning things, upskilling, professional
00:16:19development, collaboration. There's so many opportunities, services from, you know, music
00:16:24cares or the museum. But for me, voting is what makes the outcomes the best. And that's what makes
00:16:30our show the best. And a lot of people say, Oh, well, it's just a show. It's trophies. It's,
00:16:33you know, shiny performances. But that show pays for everything we do as a not-for-profit organization.
00:16:40So all the education work we do, all the giving back to music people who need help, you know,
00:16:45even think about the fires or the hurricane, the things that are happening. We take care of our
00:16:48music people with the money that's raised from the telecast. So if you're a member and you're not
00:16:53voting and you're sitting back to just see who wins, you're not helping the cause or the good of
00:16:58the work that we do at the academy. And a lot of times if people aren't voting, they'll be quick to
00:17:03complain about the outcomes. And I say, well, you can't complain unless first you're a member and second,
00:17:09you participate. But as far as who's voting, how many people, again, I try not to go too far into
00:17:15the weeds. We want to make sure our voting body's healthy and they're voting appropriately and
00:17:20there's enough people so that we have a clean election. But I don't dig into how many and who
00:17:25and who's not and who is. But we do try and make sure that all of our members know the obligation to
00:17:30vote and support the academy. When was the first time that you voted? I've been a voting member for
00:17:36probably 25 years. So 25 years ago. Do you remember that first year?
00:17:43I remember how excited I was to vote. I don't remember who I voted for or even what year it
00:17:48was. But I do remember getting the ballot. It was a paper ballot back in the day. You had to
00:17:52fill in the bubble and the whole deal. But I remember how honored I was and how proud I was to be
00:17:57a member of the academy and to be in that collection of talented people and to think like, man,
00:18:03I'm a member of the academy. I'm doing something.
00:18:06So one of the things I think is quite funny is there's this kind of myth of the best new artist
00:18:14curse that dates back to the late 70s with what is the band called? The fact that I don't know the
00:18:20band name maybe says that Starland Vocal Band after releasing Afternoon Delight. And then the next year
00:18:26they kind of weren't on the map anymore. And so people kind of started to think maybe there's a best
00:18:31new artist curse. Do you feel like there has historically ever been any validity to the
00:18:36idea of a best new artist curse?
00:18:38No, I don't. I think statistically you could probably look back and see how many best new
00:18:42artists have turned into incredible superstars. And we see that every year, at least since I've
00:18:47been here, where you see who's won that award and what they've gone on to do. In fact, I think this
00:18:51year we looked back and maybe my number's slightly off, but I think there's 30 or so
00:18:56nomination for best new artist from the past in this year's show. So it just really depends on the
00:19:02records that they make and how they follow up with some of that early work and whether they can
00:19:07sustain that. And there's so many, you know, how many things go into making a successful artist. And if
00:19:11you think about all the millions of people trying to be an artist and trying to have a successful,
00:19:17self-sustaining career in music, it's tough. And the fact that they are the best new artist,
00:19:23I think helps and gives them an advantage to continue forward. But ultimately it comes down
00:19:27to if the fans and the consumers are liking what you're making and everybody has the same shot to do
00:19:33that.
00:19:34I know that there are kind of onlookers who will always say every year, there's going to be someone
00:19:38in the best new artist category who's been going for 10 years in their career, but this is the first
00:19:42time they're nominated and they're in the best new artist category. I think last year, the year before
00:19:46it was Kei Trinata. This year might be like maybe the Marias. Do you still feel good about like the
00:19:52kind of ethos of the best new artist category, just essentially being a category for people who've
00:19:57never been nominated before? Does that still feel like the right way to approach it?
00:20:01Well, it's more than just a category for people who haven't been nominated before. It's for an artist
00:20:06that breaks through in the year. And so if you ask, am I okay with it? I'm okay with the ethos of it.
00:20:12The name of it sometimes catches us up or trips us up a little bit because a lot of the artists
00:20:16aren't new, but it's the artist that has finally broken through. There's maybe artists that have been
00:20:20toiling and working and writing and creating for so long, but now they finally came to national
00:20:25prominence or a national consciousness. And for us, we want to celebrate those kinds of artists.
00:20:30This is their first time really, really getting that recognition. So whether or not we want to
00:20:34say new artist or breakthrough artist, or maybe that's where the conversation should be, but it's
00:20:40always great to celebrate and honor the group of musicians or creators or artists that are now
00:20:47finally coming through. There are about eight nominees in some of the general categories now,
00:20:54right? That's correct. Eight. We had 10 at one point. We had five at one point. We've been trying
00:20:58to find the sweet spot. What's the right number without diluting it, but while still honoring
00:21:02all the diverse people that we want to honor in those categories.
00:21:05Yeah. So do you feel like eight is like the final number? Because I know it has varied.
00:21:09It's definitely not the final number. It's a good number for now and it feels like it's working,
00:21:14but we look at our processes every year. We look at things like how many nominees go into a field?
00:21:20What are we classifying music as? What is the nomenclature around the categories and the genres
00:21:24of music? And what are the thresholds we have? There's so many things that we think about every
00:21:29year. So I'm sure we'll continue to revisit the eight or the five or the 10.
00:21:33Yeah. And one thing that I've been thinking about a lot as a reporter is I report a lot on tech,
00:21:40like streaming, that kind of stuff. And I think in a streaming age, when we can listen to
00:21:43anything we want to at our fingertips, our taste in music is fragmenting. The idea of just one
00:21:49mainstream where everyone's listening to the exact same thing on the same radio station is
00:21:52something that doesn't totally happen anymore. We often hear that about the Hot 100. I'll hear
00:21:58everyone say, oh my gosh, I've never heard of the number one song on the Hot 100. How is that
00:22:02possible? But so many people are listening to it. I imagine the Grammys are kind of dealing
00:22:08with the same thing. How do you guys approach the idea that listenership is fragmenting and people
00:22:14are globalizing in their tastes and evolving and moving into more sub-genres than ever?
00:22:22I think that's the coolest thing ever. First of all, everyone has their own identity and their
00:22:25individual things that they love and that makes sense to them and moves them. And I would much rather
00:22:33that be the environment we're working in rather than a few select people. We're driving what we all think
00:22:38we should be listening to or what they think we should be listening to. And the ability to discover
00:22:43music and to try something and say, I'm not crazy about that, but you know what? I love this. Let me
00:22:48find 10 more things like that. I don't know if there's been a more exciting time in music than
00:22:53right now. I know there are things that we're all nervous about and scared about with the dreaded AI
00:22:58conversation and consolidation of label or power. But with what's happening in music and, as you said,
00:23:05the ability for music lovers to find different kinds of music and have it at their fingertips
00:23:09at any given moment is really, really exciting. As to what we're doing about it, I want to make sure
00:23:15as the person who's running the academy, along with our board and our chair and our executive
00:23:20leadership, I want to make sure that we are... I want to make sure our membership is representing
00:23:27what's happening in the music business right now. So I want to make sure there's members from
00:23:32different parts of the world. We can't all be just from one place. We can't all just be people
00:23:36who love one kind of music. We can't all be people who look a certain way or a certain gender or a
00:23:41certain age. We need everybody to be a part of the process. And we need everybody to be able to come in
00:23:46and advise us as an organization. And I hate to... I'm not trying to sound over-important. I know
00:23:52the Grammys or even music, for that matter, is not the most important thing in the world.
00:23:57But I think what artists do is one of the most important things in the world. And I think music
00:24:03is what makes us human. And it's what makes society move and work. And so for us to serve
00:24:10music and to serve music people, we have to do a lot of things that maybe you're saying,
00:24:15oh, that's not really important. But for us to get it right, those are the things that are really,
00:24:19really important. Getting the membership right. Make sure we're talking about music the right way.
00:24:23We're making sure we're getting the right outcomes, the right nominations, the right wins so we have
00:24:27a great show and we can generate more revenue for our music community.
00:24:31And for those who are listening who don't know much about it, what does Music Cares do?
00:24:36Music Cares is the 501c3 affiliate of the Academy. And it is an organization dedicated to the health
00:24:43and well-being of music people. Anytime a music person... You don't have to be a member,
00:24:48just a music person, a professional in the industry. You could be a guitar player,
00:24:51you could be a yodeler, you could be a roadie on a tour. If you're a music person,
00:24:57you work in this industry, you need help, you call Music Cares. You might have a car accident,
00:25:03you might have medical bills, maybe it's a drug addiction, mental illness, somebody stole your
00:25:08tuba. You call Music Cares and these people are taking care of you. And what I'm so proud of is
00:25:14what Music Cares has done in times of great need, crisis, disasters. We had so many people
00:25:21that had lost their homes during the fire or had been affected by COVID. During COVID,
00:25:27we gave out over $30 million to music people who needed help. The same for the LA fires in the last
00:25:32year, music people who need help. So that's what Music Cares does. And I'm just proud. And
00:25:38comparatively, the museum does kind of a similar thing on the education side and the preservation side,
00:25:44making sure young people are exposed to music and music teachers and music classes and have
00:25:50instruments. And there's just so many great things that this organization does, which is why
00:25:54I jump on a podcast like this and talk to you because I want people to know we're so excited
00:26:00about our noms and our wins and our performances, but what we do really matters. What we do as an
00:26:07organization to support music and music people, I think changes the world.
00:26:11Mm-hmm. And one of the things I thought was really inspiring last year was Chapel
00:26:15Rhone dedicated part of her speech when she won Best New Artist to talking about how artists don't
00:26:21receive healthcare and that can be really challenging for them. It's probably the most stressful job you
00:26:27could choose to do is being an artist, especially a pop artist with the whole world watching you. And
00:26:33I'm wondering, could someone get some sort of healthcare covered by music cares? Is that one
00:26:41remedy? Well, first of all, what Chapel said, I couldn't be more excited about the sentiment of
00:26:49what she brought up in her passion and advocacy for music people, because I feel the same way. I wake
00:26:56up every day thinking, what can we do for our community? And insurance and healthcare is a big
00:27:02challenge for us because none of us are, or at least until this job, none of us are working for
00:27:07companies that offer that, retirement packages or 401s or health insurance. And so as a music creator,
00:27:15and it's not just artists, it's the songwriters, the engineers, it's the musicians, we don't have
00:27:20access to that. So music cares doesn't do that specifically indirectly, but the academy has over the
00:27:26last five years been sourcing low cost insurance opportunities for our members. And we're trying to
00:27:31develop more things like that where we can fill gaps. We haven't nailed it all because we also
00:27:37have a certain pool of resources to work with. But these are things that we are super passionate
00:27:42about. And we're really working closely with the artist community, the songwriting community to try
00:27:47and also figure out what's the legislation. We have an advocacy department in DC and at the state level
00:27:52where we're fighting for the rights of music people, not just on copyright protection and AI protection,
00:27:57things like that, intellectual property. It's about how else can we be helpful to the music
00:28:02community. So these are things that we're, we're working on every single day, including how do we
00:28:07solve some of the challenges financially for the creative community?
00:28:11One of the recent ads, as far as categories go for the Grammys was songwriter of the year,
00:28:16which I know songwriters are so excited about. They've been wanting that for a long time.
00:28:20And the songwriter category specifically, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's non-performing,
00:28:27non-producing songwriters. So it's like true, like, you know, writing music and lyrics songwriters.
00:28:33And over the last few years, I've started to see that some of the same names keep cropping up
00:28:37in the nominations. Is that category stagnating? And is there, is it, is there maybe too small of a
00:28:45pool of people eligible? Like, I don't know, what are you, what are you thinking about songwriter
00:28:50of the year as it evolves?
00:28:51I hope that it continues to grow and I hope we get more and more songwriters, but this is the
00:28:55challenge. One of the things that we're concerned about is human creativity and the craft of writing
00:29:01songs. And which is why I was so pleased to be a part of bringing that category to our list and to
00:29:08our show. We've had a deficiency in celebrating the craft, I would think. Maybe I'm biased because
00:29:15I'm a songwriter, but I feel like we needed to do a better job of recognizing and honoring
00:29:21the incredible people that are writing the songs that artists are performing. So that category was
00:29:27an attempt to do that. I hope we'll continue to get great support and people submitting for that
00:29:34category. I know there's some names that are the same, but I don't think it's stagnant. I feel like
00:29:40there's great different people. We've only done it three years, so we'll see where it goes. And I love
00:29:45the fact that we're doing that.
00:29:46Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things that people on the outside looking in at the Grammys
00:29:52might not totally understand is like how certain artists end up in certain categories. I think,
00:29:58for example, Justin Bieber getting nominated for Yummy and he was in the pop category, but he wished
00:30:02he was in the R&B category. But there's a lot of steps along the way to determine who is in what
00:30:08category. I know that you have to submit, like, correct me if I'm wrong, you have to submit and
00:30:14put yourself in a certain category and then it's reviewed. How does that happen sometimes that an
00:30:19artist will end up in a category that they were not intending? And how do you address those
00:30:24challenges when the artists are upset about that?
00:30:27Well, start with the process. You enter as an artist or as a creator, songwriter, whatever you are,
00:30:32you enter the material in a category and in a genre where you believe you should be competing.
00:30:37Sometimes you as an artist may have a different opinion of what type of music you think you're
00:30:45making. So with that in mind, and so we didn't get very disparate types of music competing against each
00:30:51other, being judged, I'll say, in the same category. We created committees of experts. So if you're talking
00:30:57about a record that's either pop or R&B, we have a committee of pop songwriters, producers, executives,
00:31:03artists, engineers that exclusively work in that genre, then we'll have the same committee in R&B.
00:31:12And then music that's submitted in R&B go to the R&B committee. And the R&B committee listen to it
00:31:17and say, not is it good, is it bad, does it deserve a nomination? No. Is it R&B? That's the only
00:31:24determining factor that they have the ability or the authority to be able to say. And if they say that
00:31:29it is R&B in their minds, and again, we can only try and assemble the group of experts that we can,
00:31:35because all this is subjective. Nobody can definitively, factually say a piece of music
00:31:40is definitely a certain genre. It's opinion. So we get people who we think are really smart and
00:31:45know the genres to evaluate whether or not it fits in that genre. And they keep it or they pass it on
00:31:51to the other genre committee. And so if R&B feels like it's not as R&B as they think maybe the artist
00:31:56does, they move it over to pop. If pop thinks that, yeah, it's pop, we'll take it. Then it comes
00:32:00out and pop. If pop doesn't like it, then it goes back. The only thing, and I know that sounds
00:32:04complicated, the thing that we've tried to do over the last five years is pay much more reverence or
00:32:09respect to artist intent. And so when an artist submits in a certain category, whether it be jazz
00:32:16or pop or rock, that committee is instructed, is asked to make sure you're paying attention to where
00:32:23it was entered. And in order to do that, we've adjusted those committees' ability to move things
00:32:28easily. So we now have it where it has to be a supermajority, 66 and a third percent has to vote
00:32:34that it is not of that genre in order to move it. So if half the committee votes, it stays. 66 and a third,
00:32:41it goes. Interesting. Yeah.
00:32:43Not 66 and a third, sorry, 66.66.
00:32:46Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Math.
00:32:48Math.
00:32:48You know, whatever.
00:32:49It was mathing.
00:32:50We're music people, you know? Um, so one of the genres that has cropped up in the last
00:32:56like five to 10 years as a really popular one and a growing popular one in the States
00:33:01is K-pop. Um, one of my coworkers at Billboard wrote a story a couple months ago talking about
00:33:07whether or not K-pop should have its own category at the Grammys or if it's just pop music, basically.
00:33:14And what did they think?
00:33:15I, you know, I think they had a very balanced article. I think it was very balanced.
00:33:21Sign of a good journalist.
00:33:22Yes. Talk to all sides. I think there totally is an argument for both. Um, so I, K-pop is a,
00:33:29an especially challenging one, but I think since that article came out, we got our nominations
00:33:34out and we saw that a K-pop demon hunters track ended up in the song of the year category. Um,
00:33:41golden by hunt tricks, which has been leading on our charts. If you watch the show, you know,
00:33:45that it's been on the charts for a long time. Um, so I think it kind of proves that K-pop at this
00:33:51point has hit some sort of a threshold where maybe it can actually compete in these mainstream
00:33:56categories. Um, so I'm wondering now, what do you think? Does K-pop still need to be considered
00:34:03for its own category or should it be in pop? Well, it's a good question. And luckily you or
00:34:09I don't have to answer it because our categories and any genre specific categories that are created
00:34:15or developed are determined by the music community. So the music community will survey the landscape.
00:34:21Hopefully we have enough experts based on our new membership to say, Hey, you know what?
00:34:26K-pop is really doing its thing. We need a category for K-pop. They write a proposal.
00:34:30The proposal comes into the board and the board says, you know what? I think you're right. Let's
00:34:35have a new category. And so that process happens every year. So I would imagine with what's been
00:34:41happening recently with K-pop artists and K-pop music, uh, the prevalence and the popularity of
00:34:46it, there is going to be more and more momentum, both in the music community and in the academy
00:34:51elected leadership to discuss that and think about it. So we'll see what happens.
00:34:55Yeah. I feel like K-pop is so strange because it's really hard to define what it is. It's
00:35:01like, do you want to put everyone who is a pop artist from Korea into K-pop? That might
00:35:06not be fair, but also is something like cat's eye, which is based in the States, but using
00:35:11the K-pop model, is that K-pop or is it regular pop?
00:35:13Well, the good thing again, is we have people in our, you know, within our reach and our
00:35:19membership and our elected leadership who are immersed in K-pop and immersed in pop and
00:35:24they're experts. And there's no way I could, or you could, or any one person could tell
00:35:28everything about a genre and be able to determine whether it's this kind of music or that kind
00:35:31of music. So we rely heavily on people who are working in the space, even executives,
00:35:36label people, managers, lawyers to get together and to talk about these kinds of things.
00:35:40And that's the beauty of the Academy is we have so much expertise and knowledge across
00:35:45our 15,000 voting members to tell us, here's how we're going to define K-pop. Here are going
00:35:50to be the rules of how we talk about it. Here's the description. Here's what it has to have
00:35:55in it to make sure that it's in that genre. And that is hard. It is so difficult because
00:36:00it is music. It's subjective and it hits everybody differently.
00:36:03Yeah. And when I think of the Grammys, I think of it as an American award show, but I know
00:36:09we all are increasingly adding more global genres. Like we were just talking about K-pop,
00:36:12not a category, but you know, that is a global genre. You do now have a category for African
00:36:19music. How do you think of the Grammys? Is it an American award show or is it representing
00:36:24the globe's music, the world's music?
00:36:29I like to think that we're representing music regardless of where it comes from, regardless
00:36:33who makes it. And we never ask where you were born when you send in a submission. We just
00:36:38make sure that the music is available to consumers. And as long as it's, it used to be, if it was
00:36:43on a record or if it was on a CD or a cassette, it was eligible. Now, if it's on a streamer
00:36:46and available to consumers, it's eligible.
00:36:48So we represent music and we want to honor music and we realize borders are falling figuratively
00:36:55and languages don't matter when it comes to music. You know, I've been singing along to
00:36:59music in Spanish. I don't know, a lick of Spanish, but I'm singing the words and same
00:37:03for K-pop. You're seeing people enjoy music from different parts of the world. Now with
00:37:07Afro Beats and I'm a Piano and other types of music from the continent, you're seeing stuff
00:37:11from the Middle East coming in. I just went to an artist from India that was playing at the
00:37:16Crypto the other night and it was amazing how incredible this music is. And to me, it doesn't
00:37:21matter where it comes from. So my hope is that we continue to just celebrate excellence in
00:37:28creativity and music and we'll see where that leads us.
00:37:32Yeah. Yeah. So recently you did an interview. I don't know where it was with, but you talked
00:37:37about how you're seeing from your friends who are songwriters and producers that pretty much
00:37:42everyone is using AI in some way in the studio. I was wondering if you could expound upon that,
00:37:47like exactly what are you seeing? How are they using it?
00:37:50It runs the gamut of people texting lyrics or ideas or how they feel when they wake up
00:37:57and it generating an entire track and lyrics and melody. That's the far end of the spectrum.
00:38:03The other side of the spectrum is somebody just has produced an entire song, but they can't figure
00:38:08out the bridge section or they can't figure out one line or they can't figure out a melody to
00:38:12finish the chorus. And they ask one of the platforms to create that, to supplement what
00:38:17they've already done. That's the other end of the spectrum. Everything in between is what I'm
00:38:20seeing in the studio. People having one of the platforms writing lyrics where they've already
00:38:26played all the chords and they love the music, but they don't know what to say, or taking lyrics
00:38:31that have been generated and building songs around that, or having AI vocal a song that you wrote
00:38:39because you can't sing. Or I know one person who writes on acoustic guitar and whistles the melodies
00:38:44and puts that into one of the platforms, one of the models, and the model spits out songs.
00:38:50I know another person who's a poet who just writes poetry and they put that into the model and it
00:38:55spits out a fully produced demo. So it's all over the map. People that are professionals that I've been
00:39:01seeing are generally somewhere in the middle where they're using it as a tool. They're unlocking something
00:39:07or they're stuck on a lyric or they're trying to find 15 things that rhyme with this. How do you
00:39:13say things in a clever way? Here's a lyric. How can I make it better? Here are some drums, a bass,
00:39:20and a piano. Now make it sound like a fully produced song. Those are some of the ways I'm seeing
00:39:24professionals use it. Also, people are using it as inspiration, not just taking what it gives you and
00:39:30just using it, but, oh, I never thought about that. That's a cool way of thinking about this section or
00:39:35that beat or this rhythm and then launching from there.
00:39:39Yeah. I'm starting to see that a lot too. So I'm covering AI for us all the time. So this is
00:39:44something I watch really closely. And I have a few friends who are rising songwriters right now
00:39:49and producers who are just trying to get their start. So they're in that grind phase where they're
00:39:53like, every day is a session, if not two sessions.
00:39:56Are they using AI?
00:39:57Yeah. A lot of them are using AI and they're super talented. They don't need to, but they're
00:40:03doing so many sessions that I've heard this from quite a few people that they're just like,
00:40:08sometimes the well runs a little dry and you need something to kickstart it. And then they
00:40:15won't end up using almost any of it. But it's interesting because sometimes there are bits and
00:40:22pieces from that initial kickstart that might end up in the resulting song, but they probably
00:40:27won't disclose it because I mean, the self-disclosure thing, I don't know. I have a hard time with
00:40:33it. I know there's like no really better option right now, but yeah, I don't really feel like
00:40:37anyone's going to really disclose if they use Suno to like try to help them start. But, you
00:40:43know, I think we're in kind of like this wild west phase where AI detection isn't so great.
00:40:48So we're relying on people just disclosing whether or not they've used AI. I think we're also seeing
00:40:53a lot right now. And we have in the past few years, this idea of you'll see a headline where
00:40:59it's like an AI song. It's number one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't you just have a number one?
00:41:06Yeah. It was on the country song sales chart. Okay. I'm going to fact check myself on the screen
00:41:12if I'm wrong about that, but yeah. And you know, I can't really speak to like what goes on on our
00:41:18charts, but I do think like the idea of calling things AI songs is a little bit reductive at this
00:41:25point. I don't know what the better solution is, but a lot of times it's more of a gray area than just
00:41:33it's an AI song. It was just made by a prompt. You often have the things in the middle, like you
00:41:38were describing. And yeah, I don't really think we have the terminology yet to describe that.
00:41:44The next question I would ask you, and I wish I could ask all the consumers and fans of music,
00:41:50do people really mind if AI was involved in the creation of the song? I'm not saying an AI artist,
00:41:56because that's different. Yeah.
00:41:57As I spoke on earlier, I think you want to feel something from the artists that you love or that
00:42:02you're a fanatic for because of that human connection or the shared experience. But if
00:42:08you use generative AI to make some drum beat or a chord progression or a track, do you think people
00:42:15will mind that if their favorite artist is singing it? I think if they know, yes. If they don't know
00:42:22and it tricks them, I mean, Deezer just put out a really interesting stat where they said 97%
00:42:27of people cannot tell the difference between AI generated songs and human made songs, which is
00:42:33a pretty shocking stat at this point. I guess that just proves how good things have gotten.
00:42:38But do you think fans care if their favorite artists use auto-tune?
00:42:41They don't care about auto-tune. I think what they care about with AI is the ethics of the training.
00:42:46I think that's like a huge part of it.
00:42:48So consumers are in the weeds around that, you think, to that level?
00:42:53They care about sampling?
00:42:54They don't care about sampling. Yeah, I do wonder if I was not in the industry at the time when
00:43:00sampling became a thing, but I know that it was extremely controversial at that time.
00:43:04And streaming. They know the ethics and the finances around streaming.
00:43:08So there's a lot of things that have happened, technological disruption and advancements that
00:43:12have happened that have affected the creative community. But at the end of the day, I'm trying
00:43:16to figure out, and this is the toughest part of my job and where I sit, is I obviously represent
00:43:20overall beyond just the voting members, 40,000 members of the academy. And they're all humans,
00:43:27by the way. And we're trying to figure out what's the best place to sit and coming on your podcast to
00:43:33talk about it. And it probably sounds a little crazy, like this guy doesn't have his position
00:43:36together. But it's really tough because I want to advocate for our human members and human creators.
00:43:42But I also realize that this technology is here, much like other technologies that have happened
00:43:46all the way since piano players were angry when the piano roll came out. And, you know,
00:43:51live bands were mad when tape recorders came out and you could record music and listen back to it.
00:43:56Everybody was mad, up in arms about it. All the orchestras were angry when somebody invented
00:44:01a synthesizer or a sampler. And so there's always been this technology that's come and changed how
00:44:08we create and make our art. So I'm struggling between resisting it and saying,
00:44:13no, this is bad, no AI. And knowing that it's happening
00:44:17with trying to understand how we can utilize it as a tool and use it to benefit our members and our
00:44:25human creators in a way that is not eliminating people's opportunity to express themselves or their
00:44:32opportunity to monetize their art.
00:44:34Yeah. I know you've been thinking about this for a long time. I remember back in 2023,
00:44:39like when I feel like AI music, like really actually became a headlines was the Ghostwriter
00:44:44Heart on My Sleeve, fake Drake song. At that time, I think again, using the term AI song is a little
00:44:50confusing. That song actually was entirely made by a guy in a, in a bed sheet and some sunglasses.
00:44:57Um, and he used AI to adapt his vocals into sounding like deep faking Drake in the weekend.
00:45:04Um, and at that time you made a statement to the New York times that because the song was made by
00:45:10a person that it could be eligible in song categories. Um, is that still the stance? Like
00:45:15if something has AI in the recording, but the song itself is human made, that it could still be
00:45:20nominated in a songwriting category?
00:45:22Yes. And, and converse, it can still be nominated in a performance category if AI created or wrote the
00:45:27music or performed all the music, but somebody, a human sang it. So using AI does not make your
00:45:33entry ineligible. It just kind of makes you have to choose the right categories to be considered in.
00:45:38And like, what about when something has an element of deep faking, like something where it's
00:45:44potentially offensive to another member of the Academy or something? Um, like in that instance
00:45:49where, you know, Drake in the weekend didn't give their permission for their voices to be used is,
00:45:55are things like that disqualifying?
00:45:57There are things that can disqualify a recording. Absolutely. If you're doing something illegal or
00:46:01something that, um, affects an artist in a way that is protected, then there are things that we
00:46:08can do to avoid that. But all that is starting to look really blurry and needs clarification
00:46:14more now than ever.
00:46:16Yeah. And what are you guys up to on Capitol Hill? I know y'all are behind the no fakes act,
00:46:20right? No fakes act, right?
00:46:23Yeah. Yeah. No fakes, no frauds. It used to be called. I think now it's just no fakes. We've got a lot
00:46:27of support federally and that is legislation to prevent people from being able to do what you're
00:46:31talking about, which is take someone's voice and use it in a way that they don't approve or they
00:46:36don't, um, have any monetary interest in. So that is getting a lot of support by camera or
00:46:43bipartisan. It's kind of, I think, undisputed almost. We just need to get it through and get
00:46:49it happening and get it signed off. But I'm confident we'll get that to happen. There are some
00:46:53states that have adopted it already, but we really need that on a federal level.
00:46:57Yeah. I mean, the statewide thing is just so patchy. It's so hard to do it on the state level.
00:47:01But yeah, I mean, we need the government to stay open so they can get to work and maybe thinking
00:47:06about, uh, actually passing that one. So it was funny because I was, I guess not funny, but it was
00:47:11interesting. I was on the Hill and we were meeting with members of Congress and I gave a talk and
00:47:18I said, how would, would you guys be okay if somebody used your voice and delivered a campaign
00:47:24promise with things that you didn't even believe in and were completely opposite to the way you
00:47:28felt? So that's how as an artist, we feel when somebody sings a lyric that we didn't write or
00:47:33raps a section that we don't believe or we don't live. It's inauthentic and it could really do harm
00:47:39to the artist brand and to the fans. So I think that, that hit them. And I think they realized,
00:47:45oh, we can't have people running around using our voice or our likeness in ways that we don't
00:47:50approve.
00:47:51Yeah. I do think that like the Recording Academy, the RIAA, like given you guys have such tight
00:47:57relationships with artists that senators and congressmen actually do really care about,
00:48:01it's touched everyone's lives. Like we were saying before at the very beginning,
00:48:04music is a very universal thing. Um, my hope is that like, you know, when artists actually speak up,
00:48:10they might actually mean something to these people and like have some sort of,
00:48:16that's the coolest thing. You go to the Hill and you bring one of these artists
00:48:19and the members of Congress look at, you know, they're celebrities in their own right. But when
00:48:24they look out and they see an artist that they like, they're like, they turn into kids and then
00:48:28you have their ear. Then you can spend the time talking to them about your concerns. And
00:48:31I think they're listening as much as they're looking at the artists and wanting them to sing or
00:48:35perform in their office. They're listening to that artist and telling
00:48:38them the story of how they came up or how they make a living or issues they're having. And that
00:48:43is, I think the, I guess I was gonna say secret weapons, not even a secret, but that's the most
00:48:47powerful weapon that we have in making changes, the artist community and them showing up and
00:48:52advocating for their peers. So the Grammys are going to be moving next year, not this year for
00:48:582026 and that award ceremony, but next year it's going to be moving over to ABC, Hulu and Disney plus.
00:49:04And I know we're now in this age where so many people are looking to watch the Grammys on streaming
00:49:09services. Does that evolve the way you're thinking about putting on the show that it's not a
00:49:15traditional, that we're moving further and further away from traditional broadcast and moving more
00:49:19towards streaming? And what are some of the effects of streaming on a broadcast like the Grammys?
00:49:23Obviously the ability to reach more people in different parts of the world, but it is going to make
00:49:28or cause us to rethink and reimagine if you're building a show now, what would it look like?
00:49:33Would it, do you have to account for commercial breaks? Do you have to account for different
00:49:38segmented audiences or there's so many considerations when you're programming a show and you're trying to
00:49:43make a show for linear broadcast that maybe you wouldn't have if you were doing it for just
00:49:47streaming. The thing for us is we are still going to be on ABC. So we will still be making a show
00:49:53built for ABC, but also Disney plus. So finding that sweet spot is going to be the challenge.
00:49:58It's really exciting for us. We've been with CBS for many, many 50 plus years. So it's an opportunity
00:50:03for us to do some different things. Wow. I didn't know it was 50 plus. That is, that's crazy, man.
00:50:09Big changes ahead. Yeah. So Harvey to end things off, I'm going to do a little bit of a Grammys rapid
00:50:14fire. Okay, here we go. All right. So you can have your phone out for this one. Um, cause I know
00:50:19this is going to be hard to memorize. Okay. First things first, who is the artist with the most
00:50:24Grammy nominations? I know that one. That's Beyonce. Cool. I think she's got a hundred or
00:50:2999, something like that. It's incredible. Okay. Who's the artist with the most Grammy wins?
00:50:34I know that one. It's Beyonce. How many wins do you know? 36, 35, 37, somewhere in there. And I know
00:50:41that Jay, her husband has quite a few and then her daughter has a couple. So I think between all of
00:50:47them, they probably have 70 Grammys. They probably are the family with the single.
00:50:50Oh, not even close. Yeah. Not even close. They probably have an entire room in their house
00:50:55with just floor to ceiling statuettes. Man. I want to see it someday. I want to see it.
00:51:01I want to get one. Hopefully they'll reveal it. I know. Yeah. You should go in and steal a couple.
00:51:05They won't even notice. They won't notice, but I want to earn it. I want to earn it. Yeah.
00:51:08Next one is the producer with the most wins for producer of the year. Wow. This is a great category
00:51:13and a good question because all these are my peers who have turned into my friends,
00:51:17which is crazy for me to say, because these are the people I looked up to when I was coming
00:51:20up as a songwriter and producer. So Babyface and Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Those, I think
00:51:26they have four each, if I'm not mistaken. No, Babyface has four wins. Jimmy and Terry have
00:51:32the most nominations with 11. So I was close. Whoa. 11 nominations. That's crazy. Isn't
00:51:37that crazy? I love that. Who is the artist with the most wins for album of the year?
00:51:43I know that one because it just happened. I think last year, two years ago, it was Taylor
00:51:48who won four. Wow. Okay. She's breaking records everywhere she goes. Everywhere she goes. It
00:51:55was so funny when the nominations came out and people were like, where's Taylor? I know
00:51:59like next year. I'm like, it's an eligibility window thing guys. Yeah. She did not get shut
00:52:04out this time. It's weird. I think she released on the first day of voting. So obviously it's
00:52:08not eligible, but so she released on voting day. So that's pretty crazy. Yeah. Do you see
00:52:13people adjust their timelines for the voting window? No question. Because if you release
00:52:18too early, then it's out of the consciousness by the time voting comes around the following
00:52:21year. So you got to time it the right way, which is too bad, but that is a function of
00:52:26how people listen to music and then other things come in and they like that and they listen to
00:52:30that for a while. So you see a lot of that. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I, I do think
00:52:35that there's quite a few artists who will adjust their album release window if they think
00:52:39that maybe they can have a better shot at like a number one on the charts or something.
00:52:42For sure.
00:52:43It's just how it goes. The politics are real, you know?
00:52:46Well, it's like when they release movies, they don't want to release them on other weekends
00:52:49where there's other blockbusters or things. That's, I can get it. I understand.
00:52:53The stats are important and the Grammys are definitely important more than just saying
00:52:57number one, like having an actual trophy and having the opportunity for that is way bigger.
00:53:02And what I love is when you see somebody performing or you see somebody on a news broadcast or a podcast
00:53:07or doing the national anthem, it always says Grammy nominated or a Grammy winning artist.
00:53:12Yeah.
00:53:12And on a sad side, you see it on an obituary. And that's the thing that somebody does that
00:53:18stamps them forever for as long as they live as someone who's been honored by their peers as a
00:53:25Grammy nominee or a Grammy winner. I mean, that, that gives me chills.
00:53:29Yeah. Defining achievement. How often do you get asked, do the Grammys still matter?
00:53:33I used to get asked that a lot when I first took this role and my answer was a little more
00:53:40tentative and it was, I think the Grammys really matter. I've always wanted to win one. I think
00:53:44my family's always respected everybody I've ever worked with has always wanted to win one,
00:53:48but I understand that there were some people that didn't feel the same way. But now four or five
00:53:52years later, I can tell you for sure that Grammys matter and people, I think, respect the Academy
00:53:59and the Grammys, not everybody. I wish everybody did because of what the Academy stands for and
00:54:04what the Grammys stand for. But I do think it's something people aspire to because of the fact
00:54:10that it is your peers. It's not just popularity contest or who's got a bunch of streams. It's
00:54:16your peers, the people you work with, the people that you respect, the people that you've looked up
00:54:20to maybe your whole career, them saying, those are the people that I want to nominate or those
00:54:25are the people that I want to win. To me, I look back at people like Quincy Jones, who is somebody
00:54:30that I always respected and wanted to be like. And when I would think about him doing his Grammy
00:54:37ballot and voting for me as a songwriter, as a producer, I don't know if he ever did or if he
00:54:41didn't, but that was what was in my mind. My peers, the people that I admired evaluating my work,
00:54:48that just means so much to me. And the final one for our rapid fire is an artist who's been
00:54:53nominated in two extremely different categories. There's a lot of people that do that. Justin
00:54:58Bieber's done it. I know John Batiste does it quite often. He's nominated across the ballot in
00:55:05folk and pop and R&B and gospel. So I would say John Batiste probably holds the world's record for
00:55:13being nominated in so many different categories in a given year, same year.
00:55:16Yeah. Oh, wow.
00:55:18I think Justin's nominated in a couple of different genres this year.
00:55:21Is he?
00:55:22I think so. I think he's got an R&B thing and I think he might have a pop thing. I need to check.
00:55:26Yeah. I love that album. Swag.
00:55:28Swag.
00:55:29What a name for such like a critically acclaimed album. I love it. Swag and Swag 2.
00:55:34I was going to say, is this album title Swag 2 better than Swag 1?
00:55:37I think so.
00:55:38Swag on 2 is like, it's another elevator.
00:55:39We have so much swag, we need a second swag. He had so many songs. I can't imagine how
00:55:45long he was working on it just because there's two albums worth that are fuller than most
00:55:50albums. It's pretty crazy. But I was so excited to see that album because Dijon is one of
00:55:55my faves.
00:55:56Yeah. I went to the concert last week.
00:55:58Oh, really?
00:55:59I was there.
00:56:00Yeah.
00:56:01It's crazy.
00:56:01Yeah. He really pushes the arrangements live too, which is really fascinating.
00:56:06Yeah.
00:56:07He goes for it. I love him.
00:56:08He really does. Well, I could definitely sit and talk to you about all my favorite artists,
00:56:12but I guess I'm not supposed to do that now. Because then people think, oh, you're supporting
00:56:17one and you're advocating for something. But I get so excited to listen to music, to talk
00:56:22about music, and there's so much great stuff happening. That's why I said earlier, it's such
00:56:25an exciting time to be in this business because you can see on any given Tuesday, a show that
00:56:31just blows you away and something like you've never seen before. Very cool time.
00:56:35Also, the best part about living in LA for me as an adult, because I'm from Fort Worth,
00:56:39Texas, not many concerts go through there.
00:56:40Not as many choices.
00:56:41Yeah. My parents were like, you're not driving to Dallas for that.
00:56:45Did you sneak out?
00:56:47You know, I didn't.
00:56:49Your parents are probably watching this.
00:56:50I know. My mom does listen to every episode.
00:56:53So she's going to be like-
00:56:54Kristen never snuck out to a concert, mom.
00:56:56Never. I would never do that. Sorry, mom. But okay. So Harvey, we also end off every episode
00:57:03of On the Record with a segment that we call Make Me a Playlist. And so we ask everyone
00:57:08to pick three songs based on some prompts. And okay. So the prompts are, first one, what's
00:57:15a song you can no longer? Gatekeep. So a lesser known song.
00:57:18I have so many deep cuts in my playlist, but I'm going to go with a personal response as
00:57:25a songwriter and a producer of some songs that maybe one that I've written and produced.
00:57:29And the reason I've always been a gatekeeper of the songs is because I'm singing on the
00:57:33song and I don't tell people that I sing. So I'm letting the cat out of the bag here
00:57:38publicly for the first time.
00:57:39Breaking news.
00:57:40Breaking news.
00:57:40Breaking on Billboard.
00:57:42Why Won't You Love Me, Toni Braxton.
00:57:45Wow. Are you in the background vocals?
00:57:46I am in a small feature in the fade, the second half of the song, which I never publicly talked
00:57:52about, but I can't gatekeep any longer.
00:57:55Okay. Okay. It's no longer gatekept. The secret is out. Okay. So what is a favorite
00:58:00throwback for you? Anything over 10 years old?
00:58:03Michael Jackson. Take your pick. Every song, every record. Maybe I would start with Thriller.
00:58:10And some of the songs on that album are my favorite. So influential for me as a young kid,
00:58:16listening to music, watching MTV, seeing those first videos come out. And still, some of
00:58:21the throwbacks that I go to are Michael Jackson throwbacks.
00:58:24Can't go wrong. Thriller ended up in the top 10 very recently for Halloween. Pretty crazy
00:58:28how that song keeps coming back.
00:58:30And the movie's coming.
00:58:31Oh, yes. Yeah. Played by Jafar?
00:58:34Jafar Jackson.
00:58:34Jafar Jackson.
00:58:35Yeah.
00:58:36Exciting.
00:58:36And lastly, what is a guilty pleasure for you?
00:58:39I'm assuming you're asking about a musical guilty pleasure.
00:58:42Yes.
00:58:42And not my food.
00:58:43Yes.
00:58:43Because I was going to say pizza, ice cream. No, a guilty pleasure for music. I don't have
00:58:47a guilty pleasure because I'm never guilty about listening to any genre of music. I listen
00:58:51to everything.
00:58:52No, it's true. Because is one genre of music more elevated and refined than the other? I think
00:59:00not. I love all music. There's not a genre that I don't listen to. It's honestly classical,
00:59:05EDM, pop, rock. There's some really cool things happening. And what I love right now and why
00:59:10I guess maybe there's no guilty pleasure is because it's all coming together. There's
00:59:13mashups of stuff, different types of music that you've never heard and you've never expected.
00:59:17One artist that just came out with a record, I won't say her name, but she blew my mind
00:59:22with just going left. They've been doing one thing for so long and now all of a sudden
00:59:26I'm going to do this over here. And it was the coolest work of art I've heard in a
00:59:29long time.
00:59:30Can I guess?
00:59:31Nope.
00:59:32I think I know who it is.
00:59:33I think I know who it is and I did love that record if I'm right. I did love that record
00:59:37as well. Well, Harvey Mason Jr., thank you so much for coming to On The Record.
00:59:41Thank you. That was a lot of fun. I love talking music with you and you're so knowledgeable
00:59:44about so many things. So thank you for having me.
00:59:46Thank you. I paid him to say that.
00:59:48Another very special thank you to Harvey Mason Jr. for coming on the show and talking
00:59:52to us about all things Grammys 2026. And now onto the charts. As we do every week,
00:59:57we're going to give you a countdown of the Billboard Hot 100 chart top 10.
01:00:02Here's your top 10 countdown for the Billboard Hot 100 chart for the week of December 6th.
01:00:08Coming in at number 10 is Opalite by Taylor Swift.
01:00:13Number nine this week is Mutt by Leon Thomas.
01:00:16Christmas Music makes a big re-entry this week, starting with Jingle Bell Rock by Bobby Helms
01:00:23in the eighth slot.
01:00:25Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree by Brenda Lee comes in at number seven.
01:00:30Last Christmas by Wham! comes in at sixth.
01:00:36Number five this week is All I Want for Christmas is You by Mariah Carey.
01:00:40Man I Need by Olivia Dean is number four this week.
01:00:48Three is Ordinary by Alex Warren.
01:00:54Number two is Golden by Huntrix.
01:00:58And finally, for its eighth week at the number one spot on the Hot 100 chart,
01:01:03it's The Fate of Ophelia by Taylor Swift.
01:01:07Thanks for listening to this week's episode of On the Record
01:01:09and another special thank you to my guest,
01:01:11the one and only Harvey Mason Jr. from the Recording Academy
01:01:14for coming by the show and talking to us about the Grammys.
01:01:17If you liked today's show, please consider hitting us with a rating,
01:01:20a follow, a thumbs up, all those good things.
01:01:23They really help a show like ours to grow and to reach new audiences.
01:01:26Again, I'm your host Kristen Robinson
01:01:28and tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain of the music business.
01:01:32I'll see you then.
01:01:32Bye.
01:01:32Bye.
01:01:32Bye.
01:01:32Bye.
01:01:32Bye.
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01:01:33Bye.
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01:01:39Bye.
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