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The Sycamore Gap Mystery - Season 1 Episode 1
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00:01One's for sorrow, two's for joy
00:09Three's for a girl and four's for a boy
00:17Five's for silver, six for gold
00:23Seven's for a secret never told
00:32Devil, devil, I defy thee
00:40Devil, devil, I defy thee
00:46Devil, devil, I defy thee
00:55Good morning everybody, we had Storm Agnes yesterday
01:08that brought some strong winds and some heavy rains
01:10towards northern and western areas of the UK
01:12but Agnes is no more
01:14It's going to be a much quieter day for many of us actually
01:16We've got some sunny spells around this morning
01:18It was actually a really miserable morning
01:20You know, there was no sunlight breaking through
01:22It was quite bleak
01:24But it had been really windy the night before
01:30About seven o'clock in the morning
01:31a guy in the photography WhatsApp group that we were part of
01:34dropped a picture in the group of Sycamore Gap 3
01:36but it was on its side
01:39It was a very pixelated picture
01:41You couldn't really see it very clear
01:43And I was like, that's got to be a photo show
01:44You know, and all the lads in the group were like
01:46Nah, it's can't be real
01:47Can't be real
01:48I don't think it's real
01:51I don't think it's real
01:52Buses, I'll fly up
01:53And we just basically headed straight to the tree, you know
01:59I knew from the military road
02:00You could get a good sight of the tree side on
02:02I pulled up on the military road
02:17Got my camera, my big lens out
02:19Aimed it at the tree
02:20I was like, oh my god, it is, it's down
02:32We headed up to the tree
02:33It was about eight o'clock-ish
02:37When we got to the tree, just like gobsmacked
02:39Absolutely gobsmacked
02:41I documented it all
02:46And I recorded a video
02:48You know, put it on my social media platforms
02:50I was like, look, this is actually happening
02:52Absolutely shocking
02:54Destroyed forever
02:56Really sad, isn't it?
02:58I remember thinking
03:03It's as if somebody went along with a still-so
03:05And cut the time bridge down
03:08The sorrow around, you know
03:10Just the sadness
03:11It was horrendous
03:18I remember going on a social media
03:20And it was just the most sickening, sickening feeling
03:25For astronomers like me
03:28The sycamore gap was particularly special
03:31Because it's so photogenic
03:33With the symmetry
03:43Seeing the tree lying there, dead
03:47It just felt
03:48It felt like, oh, it was a murder
03:53My initial thought was
03:55Has the storm taken it down?
03:59But when it was hinted
04:01Very, very early on
04:03No, no, no
04:04Someone's actually
04:05Someone's done this
04:06You can see the markings on the tree
04:07You can see all this stuff
04:10It completely changed
04:16Who in the right mind would do this, you know?
04:18You're talking about psychopaths
04:19Something awful's happened up at Sycamore Gap
04:20We've just managed to stand this up
04:21In the last few minutes
04:22The famous tree at Sycamore Gap
04:23Has been cut down
04:24It's like stealing joy
04:25That tree was ours
04:26I'm sitting in a car park
04:27Weeping
04:28All that remains is a stump
04:29It was palpable, the shock in the community
04:30I saw it on Facebook
04:31I remember seeing the pictures thinking
04:32It's a joke, is it April?
04:33Is it April?
04:34Disbelief
04:35Anger
04:36You literally had your head in your hands going
04:37I can't believe this is happening
04:38I can't believe this is happening
04:39I'm sitting in a car park
04:40I'm sitting in a car park
04:41Weeping
04:42All that remains is a stump
04:50It was palpable, the shock in the community
04:52I saw it on Facebook
04:54I remember seeing the pictures thinking
04:56It's a joke, is it April?
04:58Disbelief
05:02Anger
05:03You literally had your head in your hands going
05:05I can't believe this is happening
05:06You just don't understand why
05:14It was such a bizarre thing to happen
05:16We just couldn't work out why anybody would want to do that
05:19It had to be something malicious
05:23It would have to have been cut down
05:25Because some brain dead idiot thought it would be good fun
05:36I was at work and I started hearing across the office that the tree had been felled or had fallen over
05:46And they knew what had happened
05:47So 999 calls were coming in
05:49I don't care, please, how can I help?
05:51I've been shocked as he reported that the tree at Sycamore Gap has been cut down
05:56The tree has been felled overnight
05:58It's all like the social media
06:00Apparently someone felled in the tree at Sycamore Gap
06:03I don't know if you're aware
06:04I'm not aware at all
06:05It will be on the national news tonight, I guarantee it
06:07Yeah
06:08Yeah, just to confirm there's a variety of folk taking photographs
06:13Police officers were dispatched to identify what was happening
06:17And in essence, get that scene controlled
06:20If you could just clear back a tad
06:22Just so we can gather as much evidence as we can
06:24Okay, thank you very much
06:29Right, I cannot see any property lying about
06:32I cannot see any oil
06:34I can't see any footprints
06:36Obviously every man and his dogs trailed through here this morning
06:40There has been spray paint
06:42Sprayed around the base
06:44There's a clean cut three quarters of the way through
06:46There might be a local tree searching to be fair
06:56In this case the victim is, for want of a better word, the tree really
07:02So straight away it's criminal damage
07:05Someone has unlawfully cut that tree down
07:08It was damaged to Hadrian's wall as well
07:11I work in the major investigation team
07:13And the majority of the incidents that we deal with are homicides
07:17Criminal damage
07:18It isn't generally something that crops up in any of my investigations
07:21And my experience around trees, felling, anything like that is pretty much zero
07:27So I identified Detective Inspector Callum Meagle
07:32Because he worked in the rural crime team
07:34I never thought that I'd be in a position like I am today
07:41Talking about a criminal damage
07:44Because that is what it is
07:48The fact that somebody had chopped down the Sycamore Gap tree
07:54For me, it's an attack on people's, erm...
07:58The way people live
08:04The Sycamore Gap
08:06Means an awful lot to a lot of people
08:08So the tree was planted about 130 years ago
08:18By a local landowner
08:19In a dip between two escarpments
08:21Right next to Hadrian's wall
08:23That was built centuries ago
08:27To people of the North East
08:29It's been somewhere that has been visited for an awful long time
08:33Families would make a yearly pilgrimage
08:38People would go there and propose
08:42And scatter ashes
08:48The tree has been through so much
08:51World wars, storms
08:54So you always believe it's gonna be here forever
09:00It did feel like a friend
09:02I know it sounds silly
09:03But it felt like it was a gift
09:07Just for you
09:08So, yeah, it was really special
09:10For sure
09:17I wanted to find out who was responsible
09:26Crime scene investigators were dispatched
09:28When I reviewed the photographs
09:31I could see a wedge and hinge method
09:34Had been used to fell the tree
09:37And I had a few puzzled faces
09:40As to, er...
09:41How do you know that?
09:43Which I explained that my father was a forester
09:45And so I understood the technicalities
09:47So the wedge
09:48It's like a big bit of cheese that you see in a supermarket
09:50You know, it's that shape
09:52And it is cut out
09:53On the side that you're gonna fell the tree
09:55And gets placed to one side
09:57Our crime scene managers searched around the tree itself
10:00However, we weren't able to find it
10:01However, we weren't able to find it
10:03So we were minus the wedge
10:06And I thought, hmm...
10:08This is interesting
10:10If you're gonna do something of this sort of significance
10:12You would take a trophy
10:13And the most obvious section would be
10:14The most obvious section would be
10:16To be able to find the tree
10:17And the most obvious section would be
10:18If you're gonna do something of this sort of significance
10:20You would take a trophy
10:22I thought, hmm, this is interesting.
10:27If you're going to do something of this sort of significance,
10:30you would take a trophy.
10:32And the most obvious section would be the wedge.
10:37So I made the decision not to release the fact
10:40that the wedge hadn't been recovered.
10:42I wanted to keep that quite tight in the investigation.
10:45If we were able to locate that wedge,
10:47we could find the person who has committed this crime.
10:53BBC Radio Newcastle.
10:56At two o'clock, police investigations are underway in Northumberland.
11:01Police were all over the hillside.
11:04It was like a murder scene.
11:08It's part of the fabric of our community.
11:11But today, a tree...
11:12We had every TV, news company asking for interviews.
11:17To the point of where I didn't know which one was which.
11:23This grand old sycamore fell.
11:25We thought someone was playing tricks on us, and then we saw the news.
11:27It's just mindless vandalism.
11:30Whoever's done this needs to do some serious time, like, serious time.
11:33The video that I put on the social media,
11:35the post hit, like, over two million views,
11:37which was just crazy.
11:38Because I only had, like, a couple of hundred people following us.
11:43And that's when all the rumours started to fly about.
11:45What do you think of it, that someone could do that?
11:49My guessing is maybe a disgruntled local farmer,
11:52don't like tourists, or just someone who's very sad.
11:55As soon as a case hits media,
12:00I knew that we would then generate intelligence.
12:05Nothing, but a police. How can I help?
12:07Um, the lad who's local to the area,
12:10he's always joking about felling the tree at Sycamore Gat.
12:14And I don't know why he would want to do that,
12:16because it's probably the most iconic tree in Northumberland.
12:18Now I've got a feeling it possibly could have been him.
12:21One of the first calls made to police
12:28put forward, um, a young lad from the local area
12:32out of genuine concern.
12:35You know, it's just strange that he jokes about doing it.
12:38You know, it's a shit thing to do, I think.
12:40I remember wondering,
12:45could this have been committed by
12:47somebody younger in years
12:49who hasn't seen the potential significance
12:52of his actions?
12:55So we need to act quickly
12:57and make sure that we don't lose
13:00pieces of evidence.
13:01Now the keeper would a-hunting go
13:09and under his army carried a bow
13:11I'll fight to shoot the merry little doe
13:14among the leaves so green o'
13:16Jackie boy, master, singing well, very well
13:18Hey down, ho down, derry, derry down
13:20among the leaves so green o'
13:22To my hey down, down, to my ho down, down
13:25Hey down, ho down, derry, derry down
13:27among the leaves so green o'
13:29Now the first door he shall-
13:32Hulwistle is the closest town to Sycamore Gap.
13:35There's the Pennines on one way
13:37and then there's the Roman Wall behind you.
13:40Jackie boy, master, singing well, very well
13:42Hey down, ho down, derry, derry down
13:44Edge of the world kind of place, I think.
13:47Well, like the frontier.
13:49The northern frontier.
13:51Among the leaves so green o'
13:53Now the most-
13:55I run a 14-bed holiday home.
13:58I run the local Facebook page for Visit Hulwistle
14:00I'm a local councillor on the town council.
14:03I volunteer in the charity shop and I also work one day a week in the shoe shop.
14:08And I'm supposed to be retired.
14:10In Hulwistle, a lot of people depend on tourism and lots of people come to the area to visit the tree.
14:19Two jobs, yeah. Brilliant, thank you.
14:22There's not much other than cattle and sheep and tourism.
14:25Flash, Sycamore Gap is just a tree on Hadrian's wall.
14:30Nobody ever thought about it, he talked about it or nothing until Kevin Cousin came to do the film there.
14:35I am home! Woo!
14:36The tree looks absolutely fantastic in the film.
14:40It's unbelievable now that the tree has gone.
14:43People come into the pub at least a dozen times a day and literally say,
14:49Can you tell me where the tree is? The one that used to be in Robin Hood.
14:52We sell more Sycamore Gap than all of the other beers put together.
14:56We have a wine called Under the Sycamore.
14:58We have Sycamore Gap Gin.
15:00And then I have a tree which lights up as well.
15:02So yeah, anything with Sycamore.
15:07Everyone just wanted to know who it is, who's done it and why.
15:13Northumbria police have confirmed they've arrested a 16-year-old boy this afternoon.
15:18The tree in Sycamore Gap is...
15:19And all of a sudden I heard that a young 16-year-old kid was being arrested.
15:26And he was from around this local area.
15:28We literally couldn't believe it.
15:30We couldn't understand why.
15:35Once the rumour started flying about,
15:37about the 16-year-old lad who was arrested,
15:40everybody started like a witch hunt.
15:41I remember going on social media and it was quite like pretty nasty stuff.
15:47And I was thinking,
15:48Do you want to make sure this is actually correct?
15:50Like, because this could ruin a kid's life.
15:51Everybody focused on him and it was going to be him.
16:01And I was like,
16:02You've got to think about it.
16:03How can a 16-year-old go up there and chop down that tree?
16:07It can't be him.
16:08Searches were conducted and also he was interviewed.
16:17He categorically denied being responsible for the criminal act.
16:23He provided an alibi, which checked out.
16:26So he was quickly ruled out of the investigation.
16:29I do know the 16-year-old and I know that it has had a negative effect on him.
16:41He was totally innocent.
16:42At that point in time,
16:48given the nature of the information that was passed to the investigation team,
16:52you have to have investigated that properly
16:56because that's justice.
16:59But the next arrest, we needed to get it right.
17:02There is anger and dismay in Britain this morning.
17:15A tree that has stood in northern England for hundreds of years
17:19has been chopped down.
17:21And police say it was a deliberate act of vandalism.
17:24Within 24 hours, it had gone from local to national to international, global news.
17:41The pressure that subsequently came with that is quite considerable.
17:45The tree stood in Northumberland in the north end of England.
17:50I needed to go up to the scene and search for potential evidence.
17:59So myself and Becky, the boss, travelled up together.
18:05It seemed quite surreal when I looked where the sycamore gap is
18:09and it wasn't there anymore.
18:11That's when the gravity of what had happened started to sink in.
18:20We'd parked up in steel-rigged car park,
18:24which is the car park adjacent to where you would start the walk
18:27towards Sycamore Gap.
18:31The first thing was looking at which route would they have taken,
18:34what direction would they have come in,
18:36what would they have been carrying,
18:37would it have been one person,
18:38would it have been more than one person that was involved.
18:40I could see straight away the stump was laid bare.
18:54I knew that as soon as a cordon was taken down,
18:58people were going to be walking on the stump.
19:00So what I wanted to do was maintain the integrity of that first cut.
19:04So the best way that I could do that
19:06was to take a section of the entire stump.
19:16I think people were quite shocked.
19:18You know, it had already been cut once
19:19and now the police were coming and they were taking sections away.
19:26Actually having the surfaces that were cut on that night,
19:29we would have the best possible way of matching up tool marks
19:32to potential chainsaws.
19:38It was a scene that provided quite significant challenges.
19:42It's a very, very rural location.
19:46There's plenty of sheep,
19:47but unfortunately there are no cameras.
19:51There are no witnesses.
19:54We had a Twice Brood Inn
19:56that was as close to the scene that we were going to get.
20:02The police started coming in,
20:08looking at CCTV because we have it angled right round the pub.
20:15This camera looks across our car park
20:18and you can see Sycamore Gap over here in the corner.
20:21You couldn't quite see the tree
20:22because it's just in the dip,
20:23but you didn't see the military road
20:25right outside the front of the pub.
20:27The cameras do have automatic night vision as well.
20:29We had a little look,
20:34but I couldn't see anything.
20:36So he just downloaded everything he needed.
20:39We were like,
20:40imagine if there's someone parks in our car park
20:41and you see them take a chair and show out.
20:43We'd be like, oh my God.
20:44So we're at a point now
20:51where we were really limited with what we had.
20:55We needed assistance from the local community.
20:58After the 16-year-old was released,
21:08there was lots of talk in the town
21:10about who and what and why
21:12and lots of theories of why people had done it.
21:16Two pounds of AD altogether, thank you.
21:18It was a social media dare.
21:23I thought, you have got to be joking.
21:27Everybody was like naming people.
21:29I think it was Bob who lives down the road.
21:31I think it was him.
21:33I think it was him.
21:34Just because they have a chainsaw.
21:38The thing is,
21:39most people around here have got chainsaws.
21:42I've even got a chainsaw.
21:45We've all got chainsaws.
21:47I've just seen someone make a bit of an odd post on Facebook
21:55that shared a meme about cutting a tree down with a butter knife.
21:59Shared a post about cutting it down with a butter knife?
22:01Not about specifically cutting the Sycamore Gap tree down with a butter knife.
22:07One of the kids in my lesson today
22:10was talking about cutting down the tree the other day.
22:12I think he was your kid, and I was like, oh, right.
22:15It's a weird thing to drink about, isn't it?
22:16Yeah.
22:20I've got a postal suspect who's got a motive.
22:24We shall pass on you.
22:24I've got no evidence.
22:26A local farmer believes
22:28they've got the name of the postal suspect.
22:31Right, OK.
22:32Have you got any details for the farmer?
22:33We had quite a number of names being put forward,
22:36and there was a recurring name.
22:40There's a chap called
22:41The name I've been given is
22:44He's getting chucked out of his house.
22:47Part of the evidence against him has come from the National Trust.
22:49When you've got somebody being put forward on a number of occasions,
22:57it will always, you know, put your interest.
23:00As a local living in Holtwistle, everyone is naming one man.
23:08He had knowledge and previous experience,
23:10and he also had a real motive to potentially commit this criminal act.
23:17That night, on day two, the second arrest was made.
23:26Certainly there was a potential grudge with the National Trust.
23:29Is this revenge?
23:33A second person has been arrested in connection with the felling of the Sycamore Gap tree.
23:37We've just been told that a man in his 60s has been arrested by Northumbria police.
23:41People are starting to think that somebody did this
23:45who had a grudge against the National Trust.
23:50Everyone believed it.
23:51Everyone in the local area started to think,
23:53OK, that makes sense. Maybe that's what happened.
23:56I hope they throw the book at, you know, whoever did it.
23:58We don't know who. We wait for some news.
24:03During the interview, he provided an account of his whereabouts,
24:08which we were able to confirm.
24:10He categorically denied any involvement, any knowledge.
24:16He said he wasn't fit enough to have committed this offence.
24:20So I was satisfied that he wasn't involved.
24:24And it was decided that he could be released.
24:34Within 48 hours, we had interviewed and bailed two people.
24:39We had names, we had people being put forward,
24:42but we really didn't have anything solid.
24:48As it happens, it was just complete hearsay.
24:51You know, it wasn't true at all.
24:52I got fed up of listening to, it could be this, it could be that.
25:01You need concrete proof.
25:03And I thought, the police, they need to get their act together.
25:06The eyes of the world were looking at this investigation
25:11and what was Northumbria Police doing
25:14about identifying who was responsible for cutting this famous tree down.
25:17It was a hard period of time.
25:34We really didn't have anything to go on.
25:36I do get very invested in what I do,
25:41because if I lose interest,
25:44it would be a case that, you know, was never solved.
25:47But I was never going to lose interest in this.
25:53So I went back through the calls.
25:55I'm phoning regarding the cut-down tree at Sycamore Gap.
26:07There was one witness
26:11who was in his camper van on that night.
26:15I was parked in the nearest car park,
26:24called Steel Rig Car Park, all night.
26:28As far as anybody knows,
26:29I've been the only vehicle here with no plausible explanation.
26:34So I kind of don't want to be accused of cutting the tree down.
26:41When you woke up in Steel Rig Car Park
26:43to find quite a number of people there,
26:45he contacted Northumbria Police.
26:49But the information he was able to provide was quite key.
26:56When I turned up in the car park, there was nobody here,
26:58and I turned up about 10, half 10.
27:01And obviously, I went to sleep.
27:02But at 1 o'clock in the morning,
27:03I was woken up by a vehicle leaving the car park.
27:11All I know is that it was a 4x4 of some description.
27:15I know that just by hearing it start up because I'm a mechanic.
27:19I didn't hear it turn up,
27:25but it woke me when it left at 1 o'clock in the morning.
27:28That information meant that we could look at the twice-brewed-in CCTV footage
27:36at that specific time.
27:37Around about 1 o'clock in the morning,
27:44you can see a set of lights.
27:46There's a vehicle travelling along the military road
27:54in a westerly direction.
27:58Almost an hour earlier, at 23.55 hours,
28:03there was a set of lights that had travelled in an easterly direction.
28:07In the background, you can see the vehicle turn off the military road,
28:17heading up the minor road and out of sight.
28:26Up that road is the steel rig car park.
28:31So that gave us 63 minutes,
28:44and that would give enough time
28:45to walk from the steel rig car park
28:48to the gap,
28:50fell the tree,
28:51return,
28:53and drive away past again.
28:54So now we can use other CCTV opportunities
29:01to start looking at the potential journey into the area.
29:10However, in October,
29:12everything changed.
29:18We received an anonymous tip-off
29:20identifying two individuals,
29:23Daniel Graham.
29:24And Adam Carruthers
29:26we'd never heard of those individuals before.
29:31The tip-off made mention
29:33of the fact that
29:35these two lads
29:36had retained
29:38a section of the tree.
29:42The fact that a piece of the tree
29:44hadn't been recovered,
29:46that information, that detail wasn't known.
29:49I think at that point,
29:49that's when I realised, actually,
29:51there's something significant here.
29:53You think, right, okay,
29:57what do we know about them?
29:58What do we need to know?
30:01Daniel Graham was on Facebook,
30:03has been a ground worker,
30:05and quite obviously,
30:07was involved in tree surgery.
30:09I was expecting that they would have been from the local community.
30:14However, both individuals reside in the Carlisle area,
30:18which is quite strange.
30:19There's quite a distance from Carlisle
30:21across to the Sycamore Gap tree.
30:23I remember taking a phone call
30:30from the intelligence unit.
30:32He said,
30:32I've ran the vehicles
30:34associated to them
30:35across ANPR.
30:37And he says,
30:38there's a Range Rover
30:40that's registered to Daniel Graham.
30:42And it travels
30:45from Cumbria
30:46into Northumbria police area,
30:50and then an hour and a half later,
30:52travels back out again
30:53and does exactly the same route,
30:56but in the reverse.
31:00Spoke to the boss
31:01and said,
31:02fasten yourself in.
31:03I think we've really got something going here.
31:05And it was at that point
31:06I raised them as suspects.
31:08I wanted to arrest simultaneously
31:14to prevent any collusion
31:15between the two.
31:20Daniel Graham lived
31:22in a piece of land
31:22in a caravan.
31:26There were lots of outbuildings.
31:28It was quite a chaotic location.
31:31Are you going to let you
31:32put these dogs in the kennel?
31:34Aye, sure.
31:35Are they all right?
31:35They're friendly?
31:36It's probably in mud, that's all.
31:38Oh, that's all right.
31:39Is it Daniel?
31:40Aye.
31:42Oi, come on!
31:43Oi!
31:45Daniel, at this time,
31:46okay, I'm going to arrest you
31:47on suspicion of criminal damage, okay?
31:49We want to interview you
31:50regarding the damage, okay?
31:53I've got
31:54a fuck all on underneath.
31:56Yeah, I'm not going to,
31:57I'm going to let me colleague stay
31:58and watch you put some clothes on.
32:00I'm going nowhere.
32:00Aye.
32:01Put some clothes on.
32:02It's just when we arrest you,
32:03we can't leave you on your own,
32:04but I'll step out
32:05and I'll let you thing.
32:06Aye.
32:08I led the team
32:12that went to Adam Carruthers.
32:16Adam Carruthers' address
32:18was in an old airfield.
32:20I woke him
32:21knocking on his caravan window.
32:24It was certainly not something
32:25that he was expecting
32:27at that point in time.
32:30For them to be travelling
32:31to custody
32:32was a relief.
32:34Okay, the time now
32:39is 15.55.
32:41It's the 31st of October,
32:432023.
32:45Daniel,
32:46are you responsible
32:46for criminal damage,
32:48namely
32:49felon of a tree
32:50at Sycamore Gap?
32:51No.
32:52No?
32:53Dan,
32:53can you recall
32:54your movement
32:55on that night?
32:55I'll be honest with you,
32:56it's a month ago
32:57and I haven't
32:58a fucking clue.
32:59You haven't had a clue?
32:59I don't know.
33:01Would you recall
33:01if you had done anything
33:02out of the ordinary?
33:04I think if I'd cut that tree down
33:05a bit,
33:05I'd turn it on to you
33:06and say,
33:06I'll never work
33:07where I was that day.
33:08Yeah.
33:09I didn't cut that tree down,
33:10so on that day
33:11I didn't do anything exciting.
33:13Right.
33:13I didn't do anything exciting
33:14last night
33:14or the night before.
33:15Okay.
33:16I couldn't tell you
33:16what I had done
33:16three days ago,
33:17four days ago.
33:18I couldn't have a fucking clue.
33:19Right.
33:19I spent a month
33:20and I honestly
33:21don't know well.
33:24Daniel Graham
33:25seemed quite calm
33:27and quite ready
33:29to answer questions.
33:31Even in his posture
33:32when he was being interviewed,
33:33he was very laid back.
33:35He was quite
33:35almost arrogant.
33:45Adam,
33:46do you understand
33:47what you've been arrested for?
33:48Yes.
33:49You do.
33:49So you've been arrested
33:51on suspicion
33:52of criminal damage.
33:54Yeah, I do.
33:54And it's in relation
33:55to the tree
33:56that was cut down
33:57in Secremore Gap
33:58in Adrian's Wall.
33:59Yeah, yeah.
34:00Do you have any knowledge
34:01about who's responsible?
34:03Well, none at all.
34:06Like, I had to study
34:07near Bobby
34:08on the 15th of September
34:09and my partner
34:10shared a caesarean,
34:11so I was like
34:13around helping her.
34:15So between this period,
34:16the 23rd
34:16and the 28th of September,
34:18would you have left
34:19come here?
34:21I wouldn't have thought so.
34:26Adam was non-committal.
34:29His response was quite often,
34:30I wouldn't have thought so.
34:32You weren't in that area?
34:33No, I wouldn't have thought so.
34:37It's quite an unusual answer.
34:40Either no, you weren't,
34:41or I don't think so.
34:43I wouldn't have thought so.
34:45I wouldn't have thought so,
34:45like, um...
34:47I wouldn't have thought so.
34:49No.
34:53What about a lad called Dan?
34:55Dan Graham?
34:57I know Dan.
34:58You know Dan?
34:59How do you know Dan?
34:59It was quite weird
35:01how we were going on,
35:02to be fair.
35:03Um...
35:03He asked us to,
35:06like,
35:07we found his dad's land rover.
35:09Before my dad died,
35:10my dad's land rover
35:11already was fucked.
35:12He felt put it into Adam,
35:13he had it welded up.
35:14So that's kind of
35:15well mine and Adam's
35:16and she'd picked up.
35:18That's pretty much
35:18what I say.
35:19It's got it every day.
35:21What is it?
35:21The only person
35:22I'm not going to work, Mike.
35:23To go to Fred's?
35:25Does Adam come to yours?
35:26Do you know what it is?
35:27Sometimes it comes to mine,
35:28sometimes it goes to his.
35:30Does Adam stay over
35:31at your place?
35:33No.
35:33It's like,
35:34has he not puffed her
35:34or something like that?
35:35No, I'm just asking
35:36if, as a friend he may stay.
35:38No, definitely not.
35:39Do you ever stay at this?
35:40No.
35:41Thanks.
35:47I was overseeing
35:48and managing the interviews
35:49and then also
35:51at the same time
35:52receiving updates
35:53from the two scenes.
35:57So,
35:58Daniel Graham's property
36:00is a piece of land
36:02with a large static caravan
36:04and some outbuildings
36:06filled with
36:07all manner of
36:09agricultural machinery.
36:15The Black Range Rover
36:17was immediately secured.
36:19The vehicle was transported
36:34to Northumbria Police
36:36where we could conduct
36:38a forensic analysis
36:39to see if we could identify
36:40further evidence.
36:42have you got any reason
36:46why a Range Rover
36:47would be in that vicinity?
36:51He's on line.
36:53Would anybody else
36:54have access to that?
36:56Yeah?
36:56Do you keep a note
37:01of who's had it?
37:01I've got good people
37:02shouting to text around
37:03and go on.
37:04Since we've sent a news.
37:05Right.
37:06The search has continued
37:12and within
37:14some of the small
37:15outbuildings
37:15there were
37:16chainsaws
37:17hanging on the wall.
37:21The officer
37:22can ask the question
37:22is do you want a chainsaw?
37:24This would be
37:25for the apartment yard.
37:26Which?
37:27And would we be able
37:28to link those
37:28to the felon
37:29as a tree?
37:30There wouldn't be
37:30big enough.
37:31There were fairly
37:39short bar saws.
37:41They didn't have
37:43the sufficient
37:43blade length
37:44for chopping down
37:45the sycamore gap tree.
37:49Does Adam work for you?
37:51It does tree work.
37:53Tree work?
37:53Yeah.
37:55Would you say
37:56Adam's pretty good
37:56at tree work?
37:57Yeah.
37:58Yeah?
37:58Yeah.
37:58Who was it
38:00you worked for, Adam?
38:01I worked for a few
38:02people to be fair.
38:04So I'd just
38:05help out
38:06doing a mechanic
38:06sort of thing.
38:07And have you
38:08had any training
38:09in the chainsaw
38:11or bring chainsaws
38:12or anything to add?
38:12No, not a lot.
38:13If I'm honest
38:14I'm not really keen
38:15on them to be fair
38:15because they are
38:17nasty things there.
38:21Adam was
38:22trying to
38:23push himself
38:24away from any
38:25capability
38:26and use of a
38:27chainsaw.
38:28yet his friend
38:29stated that
38:30actually he was
38:31really quite
38:31handy with a
38:32saw.
38:33Have you ever
38:33done a tree
38:34before?
38:35No, not
38:36not to my
38:37memory.
38:39Like, I've
38:39never...
38:41You're saying
38:41you've never
38:42filmed one
38:42and you wouldn't
38:43know how to do it?
38:44No, I wouldn't.
38:45I wouldn't have
38:46had to try it
38:46that way.
38:47You start to
38:48think
38:48we're on the
38:50right tracks here.
38:51At that point
39:04in time
39:04Detective Constable
39:06Kim Reid
39:06had been
39:07seconded
39:08onto the team
39:09and I
39:10asked Kim
39:10to prioritise
39:12the devices
39:13seized from
39:14Daniel Graham
39:14and Adam
39:14Crullers.
39:15Was that
39:17your phone?
39:17Yeah, yeah,
39:18I don't see
39:18that right.
39:20Adam had
39:21what we would
39:22refer to as a
39:23burner phone.
39:24It was a very
39:24small phone with
39:25very limited
39:26capabilities and
39:27they've both said
39:28you'll never find
39:29anything on my
39:30phone.
39:31What about the
39:32password?
39:32Do you have a
39:32password?
39:34Save.
39:35Normally people
39:36don't provide pins
39:37to their phones if
39:38they have something
39:38to hide.
39:39So when Dan
39:39gave his
39:40PIN code
39:41I had a bit
39:42of a sinking
39:42feeling and
39:43think they've
39:43got nothing to
39:44hide, they're
39:44willing to help
39:45you.
39:45Take me
39:46all my phone
39:46down all
39:47the way
39:47and fuck
39:48all of mine
39:48all my phone
39:49and all that
39:49shit.
39:50Are you totally
39:51denying this
39:51offence?
39:52Totally denying
39:53it.
39:53That's taking
39:53all the gaps
39:54off and do
39:54with me.
39:55I did not
39:55trip to that
39:56fucking tree.
39:57That's quite
39:58a long
39:58guy this
39:58horse.
39:58That's my
40:00livelihood.
40:01That's
40:01fuck my
40:02livelihood.
40:02Coming in
40:02here today
40:03is fuck
40:03my livelihood
40:04because no
40:04don't use
40:04lots of
40:05put my
40:08it's fucked.
40:09Probably by
40:10time I
40:10got up here
40:11and I figured
40:11out to me
40:12I'm going to
40:12be the
40:12centre of
40:13the fucking
40:13face.
40:14Because my
40:14needs tied
40:15to this
40:15shit.
40:22When the
40:23search had
40:24been concluded
40:25we failed
40:26to find
40:27anything that
40:27could clearly
40:28tie Adam
40:29into using
40:30chainsaws or
40:31being involved
40:32in that sort
40:32of industry.
40:33There was
40:34nothing else
40:34significant
40:35found on
40:35either of
40:36the searches.
40:38And also
40:40unfortunately
40:41we failed
40:42to locate
40:43the wedge.
40:48Have you
40:48travelled
40:49with Dan
40:50Graham and
40:51his
40:51Range Rover
40:51into this
40:52area?
40:53I wouldn't
40:54have thought
40:54so.
40:56Okay.
40:57Concluding the
40:58interview with
40:58Adam Carollas.
41:00Alright so
41:00I'm going to
41:01turn the
41:01interview.
41:01I've got
41:01nothing further
41:02to ask
41:02some colleagues
41:02to ask
41:03all the
41:03questions.
41:04After
41:04you've
41:04conducted
41:05your
41:05interviews
41:06you've
41:06got to
41:07understand
41:08whether
41:09you are
41:09at a
41:10point
41:10where
41:10you
41:11could
41:11potentially
41:11go for
41:12charge.
41:13We
41:14weren't
41:14at
41:14that
41:15point.
41:19So
41:20on the
41:20evening
41:21of the
41:2131st
41:22Daniel
41:22Graham
41:23and
41:23Adam
41:23Carothers
41:23were
41:23bailed.
41:24...pospition
41:24of criminal
41:25damage
41:25and had
41:25been
41:26bailed
41:26while
41:26inquiries...
41:27There was
41:27an awful
41:28lot of
41:28work to
41:28do
41:28on both
41:29suspects.
41:29This case
41:39had
41:39obviously
41:40been
41:40going
41:40for
41:41about
41:41a
41:42month
41:42with
41:42very
41:43little
41:43evidence
41:44and we
41:45needed
41:45something
41:46on their
41:46phones.
41:48With one
41:49of our
41:49digital
41:49officers
41:49I reviewed
41:50Dan's
41:51phone
41:51and we
41:52just
41:52opened
41:52the
41:52camera roll
41:53and we
41:54went to
41:54the date
41:54of the
41:5527th
41:5628th
41:56of
41:57September
41:57the first
41:58one was
41:58a black
41:59video.
42:03So we
42:03started to
42:04play the
42:04video.
42:08You can
42:09kind of see
42:10some shadows
42:10on it
42:11and we
42:12could just
42:12hear sounds
42:13of wind
42:13and then
42:16all of a
42:17sudden we
42:17just heard
42:17sounds of
42:18a chainsaw.
42:24We
42:30couldn't
42:30really
42:30believe
42:30what
42:31we
42:31were
42:31hearing
42:31and I
42:34remember
42:35thinking
42:35I need
42:36to ring
42:36Callum
42:36and I
42:37need
42:37to
42:37tell
42:37him
42:37now.
42:40I
42:41received
42:42a phone
42:42call
42:42from
42:43Kim
42:43and she
42:44said
42:44there's
42:45a
42:45video.
42:47So I
42:47rapidly
42:47put the
42:48phone
42:48down
42:48and
42:49travelled
42:49back
42:49to
42:50the
42:50northeast.
42:54The video
42:58was very
42:59dark
43:00and grainy.
43:03It was
43:04undoubtedly
43:05the sound
43:06of a
43:06chainsaw
43:07and then
43:09there was
43:10the sound
43:11of a tree
43:11cracking
43:13and falling
43:18to the
43:18ground.
43:21You can
43:21hear a tree
43:22crash into
43:22the floor.
43:24I
43:30was
43:30astounded
43:32and I
43:33remember
43:34thinking
43:35this is
43:35it.
43:40Potentially
43:41you've got
43:41fantastic
43:42evidence
43:43but that
43:44has to be
43:45presented
43:46evidentially
43:47to prove
43:48that that
43:49is
43:49that tree
43:51because at
43:51the moment
43:52I had a
43:53black screen.
43:54I
43:57spoke to
43:57our
43:57digital
43:58unit
43:58and said
43:59you know
43:59we need
44:00to get
44:00this
44:00all
44:01enhanced
44:01as fast
44:02as possible.
44:05I
44:05continued
44:06to review
44:06this
44:06phone.
44:10When I
44:10looked in
44:10the camera
44:11roll I
44:11could see
44:11a little
44:12image
44:13so I
44:14opened
44:14that one
44:15up next.
44:21I'm not
44:22a wood
44:22expert
44:22but it
44:23does look
44:23like a
44:24bit of a
44:25wedge of
44:25a tree
44:25that had
44:25been cut
44:26out next
44:27to a
44:27chainsaw.
44:29That surely
44:29can't actually
44:30be the bit
44:30of wood
44:31that we're
44:31looking for.
44:32Are they
44:32really going
44:33to be that
44:33silly to
44:34cut it
44:35down,
44:35carry it
44:35and then
44:36take a
44:36picture of
44:37it?
44:37This
44:39photograph
44:40linked
44:41back to
44:41the tip
44:42off that
44:43said
44:43that they
44:44had retained
44:44a section
44:44of the
44:45tree.
44:47But
44:48how do
44:48I
44:49prove
44:50that that
44:51wedge
44:51came from
44:52the sycamore
44:54tree?
45:07This is
45:16the slab
45:16from
45:17the
45:17sycamore
45:17gap.
45:18This
45:19surface
45:19here
45:20is the
45:21original
45:21cut.
45:28It's a
45:29massive
45:29piece of
45:30history.
45:31It's
45:31quite
45:32something.
45:36We
45:36enlisted
45:37the
45:37help
45:38of
45:38a
45:38forensic
45:38botanist
45:39and
45:40he
45:40was
45:40able
45:40to
45:41identify
45:42firstly
45:42the
45:42fact
45:43that
45:43the
45:43image
45:43was
45:44of
45:44a
45:45piece
45:45of
45:45sycamore
45:46but
45:46then
45:46he
45:47started
45:47looking
45:47at
45:47the
45:48characteristics
45:48of
45:49the
45:49wedge.
45:51Photographs
45:52were taken
45:52of
45:53the
45:53slab
45:54and
45:55he
45:55was
45:56able
45:56to
45:57overlay
45:57the
45:58picture
45:59of
45:59the
45:59saw
46:00and
46:00the
46:00wedge
46:00in
46:00the
46:00back
46:00of
46:01the
46:01car.
46:06This
46:07T-shape
46:08lined up
46:09perfectly
46:10with the
46:10T-shape
46:11that we
46:11see on
46:12the image
46:12of the
46:13wedge
46:13in the
46:13back
46:13of
46:13the
46:13range
46:13over.
46:19It's like
46:20putting the
46:20jigsaw piece
46:21in and
46:22just
46:22takes
46:22into
46:22place.
46:27The
46:27scar,
46:28affectionately
46:29nicknamed
46:29the
46:29Harry Potter
46:30scar,
46:31is likely
46:31to have
46:32been
46:32damaged
46:33to the
46:33tree
46:33as it
46:34was
46:34growing.
46:35It
46:35is
46:36unique
46:36as a
46:37fingerprint.
46:42I
46:43would
46:43say
46:43it's
46:43some
46:44significant
46:45evidence.
46:50We
46:50had to
46:51get them
46:51re-arrested.
46:52They've
46:52got some
46:52tough
46:53questions
46:53to answer
46:53now.
46:54We
46:54need to
46:54know
46:54what's
46:54been
46:55going
46:55on.
46:59And
46:59the
47:00mystery
47:00continues
47:00tomorrow
47:01from
47:01nine
47:01or
47:02see
47:02the
47:02whole
47:02story
47:03now
47:03from
47:03Root
47:04to
47:04Branch
47:04on
47:05Channel 4
47:05Streaming.
47:06Next
47:07Wednesday
47:07at
47:07nine
47:08a
47:08narcissism
47:09faith
47:09and
47:09a
47:09shocking
47:10abuse
47:10of
47:10trust.
47:11The
47:11biggest
47:11scandal
47:12in the
47:12history
47:13of
47:13the
47:13church
47:14see
47:14no
47:14evil.
47:15Back
47:16to
47:16this
47:16evening
47:16and
47:17we've
47:17a
47:17festive
47:18goggle
47:18box
47:18coming
47:18up
47:19next.
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