00:00who will permanently pause migration from all third world countries.
00:04Joining us to discuss is Andrew Arthur, fellow in law and policy at the Center for Immigration Studies
00:09and former immigration judge.
00:12So good afternoon, Andrew. Hopefully you had a good Thanksgiving holiday.
00:16So about what Trump said, you know, what would the process look like legally?
00:21How would he enact such a pause in migration?
00:24So what the administration would do, what the federal government would do is
00:31it would shut down visa counseling in certain countries.
00:36Individuals from those countries, when they apply for visas come to the United States,
00:41they would find that their applications had been paused
00:45and that they wouldn't be allowed to obtain those visas in advance.
00:49And for those individuals who already have visas, when they show up at a port of entry,
00:54CBP would then turn them around.
00:57That's a slightly more legally difficult process.
01:01But thanks to something called the principle of consular non-reviewability,
01:05the president does have the ability to stop the immigration to the United States
01:10of any individual or individuals that he deems appropriate
01:14for any period of time that he deems appropriate.
01:17So he actually does have the power with respect to those individuals to come to the United States.
01:24You know, Andrew, I can't help but think, whether it's tariffs or anything else
01:31he President Trump tries to do, there's always something that happens,
01:35like a bump in the road or something.
01:38Would there be some possible obstacles that he could potentially face,
01:42whether legally or otherwise?
01:44So, yeah, I anticipate that if the president were to act on this plan,
01:50that advocates would go to court, would attempt to get a temporary restraining order
01:56or preliminary injunction of that policy.
01:59Now, we saw something very similar under the first Trump administration
02:04when the president placed bars on the admission of immigrants from certain countries to the United States.
02:15That was the travel ban or what the president's critics called a Muslim ban.
02:20That went all the way to the Supreme Court.
02:22Lower courts had actually blocked the president's proposal.
02:26But when it got to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court found that the article of law that he used
02:32as the basis for that program oozed deference to the executive at every turn.
02:38And that was an actual direct quote from the decision.
02:41So the president actually has the authority.
02:44The question becomes whether as a political matter it's going to be popular
02:49or whether it's one of those things that needs to be done on a large scale.
02:53I could definitely imagine that we need to do a better job of vetting people
02:57before they come to the United States,
02:59vetting people before they're granted asylum,
03:01and vetting people before they get green cards.
03:04But, yeah, I think that what you're actually going to see is a much more tailored
03:07process than what the president is describing.
03:12So, Andrew, let me ask you something specific about the post.
03:15It said that the government would denaturalize migrants
03:18who undermine domestic tranquility or are non-compatible with Western civilization.
03:24I'm wondering, is this legally a valid reason for stripping citizenship?
03:31I think that what the president was referring to there,
03:34as the congressman had alluded to earlier,
03:38was individuals who were engaged in fraud in order to gain naturalization
03:42can be denaturalized.
03:44If you gain any immigration benefit through fraud,
03:49that benefit can be taken away from you,
03:51and that includes naturalization.
03:53But, you know, simply denaturalizing individuals
03:57because, you know, they have beliefs that are at odds
04:02with, you know, other beliefs that other Americans have,
04:06that's a much more questionable legal issue.
04:09I think most people that have citizenship who have been sworn in,
04:13who didn't engage in fraud,
04:15are going to be able to keep, will be able to keep that status.
04:18I think the courts would definitely knock down any attempt
04:20to take their citizenship from them.
04:23But I think that what you're going to see is a much more broader review
04:26of past naturalization grants
04:30to see if there were indicia of fraud
04:33to do investigations and then to denaturalize people.
04:36But, yeah, there is a legal process for denaturalization,
04:39but it is extremely limited.
04:42Okay.
04:42And the Trump administration is apparently looking at deporting
04:46the shooting suspect's family.
04:48So on what grounds could this be done legally
04:51if the family weren't involved in the crime?
04:53So under the Immigration and Nationality Act,
04:58if an individual carries out a terrorist attack,
05:01engages in terrorist activity,
05:04then not only that individual,
05:06but that individual's spouse and children
05:08are also removable from the United States.
05:11This is a very rarely used provision in the law,
05:14but it's one that's been in the law for two decades plus now.
05:18So the president does actually have the authority to do that.
05:22The Department of Justice, DHS, do have that authority.
05:26And, in fact, if those individuals are taken into custody,
05:29they can't be released from custody,
05:31even if they didn't know anything about the terrorist attack.
05:35And this is, you know, not to punish them,
05:38but more to give individuals who would think about
05:41engaging in terrorist activity pause before they do that.
05:45And I think that that's a pretty laudable goal.
05:47Okay, Andrew, I just have one more thing.
05:51I'm wondering about this migration pause.
05:54So on an international level,
05:56some nations say the U.S. has an obligation
05:58to accept refugees and asylum seekers.
06:02So, I mean, does the U.S. have any obligation in this regard?
06:08No, actually not.
06:10With respect to refugees,
06:13there is a provision in the law
06:15to bring refugees to the United States,
06:18but the executive branch has full discretion on
06:21which refugees should be allowed to come
06:24and in what numbers they're allowed to come.
06:26So, you know, that itself is not actually going to be an issue
06:31if this is the way that the president decides to go.
06:34With respect to asylum,
06:36if an individual doesn't have any right
06:38to enter the United States initially,
06:40the United States isn't under any obligation
06:43to allow them to enter this country.
06:46Now, people could come illegally
06:48and apply for asylum that would be covered by this,
06:51but the federal government does have the authority
06:54to detain those individuals
06:56until they're actually granted asylum.
06:58And I think that this particular class of individuals
07:01would be subject to additional scrutiny,
07:03more vetting, things like that.
07:06So, you know, I think that this is one of those things
07:09where, you know, certainly on the margins,
07:11it's more, it's definitely legal.
07:14But I think that, you know,
07:15the president is simply, you know,
07:18expressing outrage at how many individuals unvetted
07:21were allowed to come to the United States
07:23under the last administration.
07:26Well, all right, Andrew,
07:27I think that about covers it.
07:29Thank you for explaining this so clearly for us.
07:32Thank you so much for having me today.
07:33President Donald Trump says the U.S.
07:37will soon launch new ground operations
07:39aimed at shutters.
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