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‘Europe must change its understanding of modern warfare,’ EU defence chief says
Drone incursions into EU member states’ airspace are changing warfare doctrines, and the EU’s response to this remains inadequate, the bloc’s defence chief told Euronews. On this front, he said, the EU can learn a lesson from Ukraine.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2025/12/02/europe-must-change-its-understanding-of-modern-warfare-eu-defence-chief-says
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Drone incursions into EU member states’ airspace are changing warfare doctrines, and the EU’s response to this remains inadequate, the bloc’s defence chief told Euronews. On this front, he said, the EU can learn a lesson from Ukraine.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2025/12/02/europe-must-change-its-understanding-of-modern-warfare-eu-defence-chief-says
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Europe Conversation. I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:11My guest today is a man who stood up to Moscow when he was Prime Minister of Lithuania more than
00:1710 years ago. An experience that serves him well today as the European Union's first ever
00:23Commissioner for Defence, Andrius Kubelius. Thank you for coming on the show, sir.
00:28My pleasure. So, as Prime Minister, you took on the Russian energy sector. You claimed compensation
00:34for damages during the Soviet era in vain to this day. Problems that only sound too familiar
00:41in Ukraine today. Does Russia ever going to change? Well, I still hope that we shall see at some time,
00:50many years in the future, more normal Russia. Today, definitely Russia with Putin is a bigger
00:57threat to European security and we see the terrible war in Ukraine. And that is what we were able
01:05to predict almost 10 years ago, where Russia is moving. It's almost more than a year now that
01:12you're Commissioner for Defence, a portfolio that has become the most important, the most
01:16consequential within the European Commission. Did you see that coming? Well, when I was nominated
01:23as the first ever Commissioner for Defence and Space, he was quite sceptical opinions around that,
01:33well, what this Commissioner will do, that Europe is not so much engaged into defence. But that was
01:39really a very, very prudent decision by Commission President to establish such a portfolio. Because
01:46during this year, really, defence became one of the most important strategic priorities for the whole
01:52Europe. And we're doing quite a lot. We managed to achieve, you know, we created a lot of
01:57what I call opportunities for member states to develop their defence capabilities, especially
02:03financial opportunities, for example, safe loans. And that allows us to move ahead with our
02:11very, very clear plans, what we call roadmap on defence readiness, defence readiness which we
02:18need to achieve before 2030.
02:20Let me follow up on this. So the European Union has no army. It doesn't have a command structure
02:27like NATO. So what does the EU bring to the table? What can the EU that NATO cannot do?
02:34Well, NATO has military power, we have industrial power. And when we put both those things into one,
02:42you know, one system, it brings really our defence readiness, because NATO is defining so-called
02:49capability targets, defence capability targets in terms of how many tanks, how many artillery pieces our
02:56armies need to have. And we are coming with our industrial policy. As European Union, we are now exactly
03:08coming to a very important new stage with European Defence Industry Program, a new system of industrial policy
03:17instruments. And also we can raise additional funds, what we did, for example, with the safe loans. We are
03:24planning to increase our defence spending in the next multi-annual budget by five times. So a lot of
03:32things which where we are really able to help member states to develop those capabilities which they
03:37need to have in order to be ready to defend and to deter whatever our adversaries are planning.
03:43Yeah. And of course, why is you doing this? Because of the war in Ukraine that is now four years and
03:49counting. The latest push by the Trump administration to bring about peace between Ukraine and Russia.
03:58What is your assessment here? Should the Ukrainians accept it?
04:02Well, Ukrainians really deserve peace. And this criminal war really should be stopped. But peace should
04:11come on, you know, on some kind of just basis, you know, and peace needs to bring guarantees that this
04:21such kind of peace will be sustainable. And I'm not so sure that Putin will agree with that. So there are
04:29really, well, we can congratulate the US administration that they are pushing for peace. Of course, some of the
04:38ideas maybe are, you know, not always acceptable. And here European leaders are showing very, very, very clear
04:47our position. We are helping Ukrainians also to withstand and to bring some new ideas. But we shall see. And it depends, really, on the
04:57on Putin. And I am not so sure that without, without much stronger pressure on him, that he will be
05:06convinced to sit down and to end this war.
05:09A lot of people think that Putin is the perfect Trump whisperer on the international stage, and that
05:14Trump is doing this for different reasons, like he wants to make money, he wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize.
05:21How serious is this effort?
05:24Well, I cannot, you know, evaluate here, at least he's showing initiative, he is trying to, you know, to push for peace,
05:32that's, you know, we can't only congratulate. If the ways in which, you know, those attempts are moving ahead, if those
05:41ways are appropriate, it's difficult to say, history will show. What would be important, perhaps, that we, as
05:48Europeans, as European Union, should not wait always, when, you know, some kind of new peace plans will come
05:54from Washington, D.C. It would be good for us also to have initiative on our side and to prepare our plan.
06:02But how can Europe do that? Trump is deliberately sidelining the Europeans, he doesn't want to deal
06:08with them, yet, we're there, we're a neighbour of Ukraine, we're much more impacted by this war.
06:15So, what can European diplomacy do exactly?
06:19We can do, as I said, you know, we can really be stronger and more effective in showing our support to Ukraine,
06:31in such a way that, you know, it would be a strong message to Putin that he will not be able to achieve anything.
06:37First of all, our financial support, military support, for example, for Ukrainian capabilities to do deep strikes into Russian territory.
06:48Also, you know, our support to air defense systems in Ukraine, where they need to defend their energy infrastructure and so on.
06:56So, there are things which we can, you know, move ahead, we can put that into some kind of package,
07:02and that should be effective for our alternative peace plan.
07:07So, the latest Russian provocations have sort of changed the tone in European capitals,
07:13and there are now more voices who say that Europe should go on the offensive when it comes to hybrid attacks, etc.
07:22Europe should hit back with offensive operations and all these things. Are you part of this chorus of voices?
07:31Well, definitely, you know, we need to see that Russian provocations or what we call hybrid war, you know, with provocations with drones,
07:42now all that sabotage on railways, even terroristic, you know, sabotage as it happened in Poland, demands from us much more clear strategy.
07:51How we are reacting. One thing is, you know, how we are able to defend ourselves against some of those provocations.
07:58For example, it appears that really our capabilities to detect drones when they are flying into our territory or to have cost-effective means to destroy them are, you know, in quite a deficit at the moment.
08:14So, we need to develop those capabilities, technical, technological capabilities, but from another side, we need really to be much more clear on our political reactions.
08:26Because we can just predict that Russia, you know, if we shall not find the ways how to stop them, the Russians will increase those provocations, you know, they will be happening much more often.
08:40We can imagine that, you know, their volumes will become bigger. And that is what we really need to have in mind.
08:50And there are, of course, proposals from different member states, from ministers, for example.
08:58Italian defense minister Guido Croseto proposed some kind of interesting paper on hybrid, you know, defense of Europe,
09:07where he is really proposing to be much more proactive in terms of, you know, our reactions to such kind of provocations.
09:14What about the famous drone wall that was being floated a few weeks ago, but now it's ominously quiet around that?
09:23I mean, we're talking about a common border with Russia of 3,000 or something kilometers.
09:28Where do you come down on this? Drone wall, yes or no?
09:31Well, now we change simply the title because we understood that in some countries this, you know,
09:37terminology wall was difficult to understand how you can build drone wall and what does it mean.
09:42So now we call it Drone Defense Initiative. And really it, you know, discussions are continuing.
09:50And as we understand very soon, for example, Finland is calling a summit of Eastern flank countries,
09:58exactly from Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, where some of those ideas will be discussed.
10:04And so the program of Eastern flank watch, it has inside of the whole plan,
10:12very strong element related with drone defense. And here, really, we can learn a lot from Ukraine.
10:18And that is what we are preparing to do.
10:20You have been a warning voice on this matter here for a long time.
10:25Whenever there was a Russian drone incursion, you said something, now we need to act. We're still ill-prepared.
10:31Do you see Europe moving into a common position here, acting and not just talking?
10:40I see really clear movements. Now we have so-called, you know, Drone Defense Initiative coalition led by Netherlands
10:48and also Latvians and Croatians are leading that coalition. We had, last week, we had very interesting industrial roundtable
10:58with all the producers of, industrial producers of drones and anti-drone systems. And now we are coming from next year, from the beginning of next year,
11:10we shall have the new industrial program, European defense industry program, EDIP, what we call, with new instruments to assist member states
11:21to join themselves into development of some kind of joint projects, regional projects, with European defense projects of common interest.
11:31So, then, as we see from national investment plans, which were presented in relation with safe loans also, quite a lot of countries are going to invest those money
11:43into development of their drone defense capabilities. So, things are moving. Maybe there is less of visibility, but the real job is really moving ahead.
11:52So, drones have been shot down over Denmark, over the Baltics, over Romania, which is not a successful business model for those who dispatch these drones.
12:03But where do you see this going, the drone war? Are these the arms of the future?
12:11Well, what we need to see is that, at the moment, really, drones are changing very much warfare doctrines.
12:20And what we have seen, really, from technical point of view, we understood that we have not enough of detection capabilities.
12:29We have no, you know, cost-effective means to destroy drones.
12:33When you are shooting a drone with a value of 10,000 euros, you know, with a missile, which costs 1 million euros, that's not the best way to defend yourself.
12:43And second question, really, what was very clear also, why we, as Europeans, were not able to prepare ourselves during the last several years,
12:56when drones on a massive scale started to appear in Ukraine back in 2023.
13:02So, it shows that, really, our way of how we are preparing, how we are able to change our understanding of modern warfare doctrines,
13:14is, again, not at that level which we need to have.
13:17So, that is why we put, very recently, also communication on so-called defense industry transformation roadmap.
13:27We need to move ahead. That's the major message which we need to understand.
13:32In this context, you have suggested once that Europe should integrate Ukrainian battle-tested drone capabilities.
13:41What exactly do you mean by that?
13:43Well, and that is what we are discussing, both with Eastern Flank countries, from Baltic Sea to the Black Sea,
13:50and also with Ukrainians, that their knowledge, their experience in, because, really, we can say that Ukrainians built a drone wall,
13:57you know, because they are, really, very effective in defending themselves against hundreds of drones flying each night.
14:05It's very important to learn from Ukrainians what we call ecosystem.
14:09Because, what you can see in Ukraine, that drone producers are working together with operators.
14:14Operators are working, you know, from Kiev center, they are managing drones on the front line.
14:20They are able to, you know, to have very, very good digital statistics in order to follow what is happening on the front line.
14:29And, definitely, they are able to innovate very quickly because, what they are saying, that the drone, which you are using at the moment,
14:38in two months' time, becomes obsolete because Russians are finding, you know, how to jam or, you know, to destroy those drones.
14:45So, those things, really, which is not so easy, you know, you cannot procure them very simply.
14:51You need to work together with Ukrainians in order to get that knowledge and that experience.
14:56So, that is why I am always repeating that when we are building Eastern Flank Watch,
15:01when we want to build, you know, also what we call, at the very beginning, drone wall, you know, on this border,
15:07we need to do that together with Ukrainians and including Ukraine.
15:11And that is what this experience of Ukrainians can then spread into all Europe
15:16and that would be beneficial for all of us.
15:18Now, winning a war is all about money, as we have learned many, many times.
15:24Of the 19 member states of the EU Security Action for Europe program, SAFE,
15:3015 have included support for Ukraine. How much money are we talking about here?
15:37Well, we shall need to check because now we are reading, you know, those plans.
15:41But we are talking here about billions. It's not just millions, you know.
15:46It can be around 5 billion maybe, but we shall know, you know, more precise numbers after we shall check.
15:52After we shall, in some cases, we shall need to have conversation with the member states.
15:58So this is important. And it's important that really Ukraine is included into those plans of member states,
16:06where they are looking for joint procurement together with Ukraine.
16:11Some member states are going to establish joint, you know, manufacturing capacities on European Union,
16:22in European Union countries, but producing weapons for Ukraine.
16:25So from one side, yes, we are, you know, strengthening our support to Ukraine.
16:31From another side, we are learning more and more from Ukraine,
16:34and that is where, you know, what I am calling that.
16:37We are helping Ukraine, but also we are asking Ukraine to help us with their knowledge.
16:42Is this going to help Ukraine in the long run, defending the sovereignty of its...
16:47Well, first of all, we need to understand that, you know, the best security guarantee for Ukraine
16:51is really their strong army, which we can help them to build.
16:55And that is why we have this porcupine strategy, whatever it's called, you know,
17:00and that really Ukrainian defense...
17:04I like this, Mark.
17:05Yeah.
17:06It should be such, you know, that Russians would not even think in the future, you know,
17:12to start new aggressions against Ukraine.
17:15And definitely, they are battle-tested armies.
17:17They are battle-tested industry, very innovative industry.
17:20Also, it's very beneficial for, in looking how we can build
17:24and how we can strengthen our own defense capabilities.
17:27So that is why we need to look how we can integrate, you know, those capabilities.
17:33And that is our future task.
17:36Commissioner, you're also in charge of space.
17:39Sure.
17:40Amazing.
17:41What are the challenges here for Europe?
17:45Well, you know, first of all, definitely spaces of dual use.
17:52And since I am, you know, defense and space commissioner,
17:58so we are spending quite a lot of our attention on how to develop those capabilities in space,
18:04which are very much needed for defense.
18:06Second, really, we need to see that we are not so bad in space,
18:11despite the fact that if you will ask, you know, people on the street,
18:16they will say, ah, Elon Musk is, you know, doing everything,
18:19Europeans are very much behind.
18:21Yeah.
18:22But we need to remember that.
18:23For example, our navigation system, Galileo, is the best in the world.
18:27Our observation system is, Copernicus is the best in the world.
18:32Now we are building a security light communication system,
18:36something like Starlink, so-called Iris Square,
18:39and experts are saying that it will be better than Starlink.
18:41So that's, well, where we are, you know, behind Elon Musk
18:45and where we need to catch up is, of course, our launching capabilities.
18:50So, but we are coming also here with new ideas and new developments.
18:56What is important, really, for us when we are talking about our space capabilities,
19:02really, to see how important is a modern warfare, is space for defense.
19:06We have, you know, intelligence systems, we have secure satellite communication,
19:11we have navigation, but what is everything is absolutely, you know,
19:16this is what we call strategic enablers, and we need to develop them.
19:20So we have new plans, especially, you know, on intelligence data capabilities,
19:27so-called S-Observation Governmental Service, and we are moving ahead.
19:32And space is what is important, that in space we have good experience
19:37to build very successful pan-European projects, which is not the case in defense.
19:42So we need, in defense we need to learn a lot from space.
19:46All right, Andreas Kobilius, EU Commissioner for Defense and Space.
19:51Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
19:53Thanks a lot. Great conversation.
19:54Thanks a lot.
19:55Thanks a lot.
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