- 6 weeks ago
Cast members from the FX show 'Pose' - Angel Curiel, Dyllón Burnside, Hailie Sahar, Indya Moore and MJ Rodriguez - sat down with moderator Jayce Baron of Kills & Tell Networks for a wide-ranging and very real conversation.
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00:00Y'all look gorgeous.
00:04Like, who did the casting?
00:07What is that?
00:09Alexia Fogel, you know she turned it out.
00:11Shout out to her.
00:12Yes, Alexia Fogel turned it out.
00:14Well, first and foremost, I wanted to say congratulations and thank you for telling these stories that are necessary to be told in a mass media scale.
00:24A lot of times it's like, you know, hush, hush, LGBT, but this is on a public platform on FX.
00:30So thank you for being vulnerable and sharing those stories.
00:33Drumroll, please.
00:37So, I kind of wanted to start off with representation and kind of digging with yourselves.
00:47Because I know a lot of times growing up we watched Nickelodeon, we watched Disney, and we kind of like see ourselves on television.
00:52And right now, you guys are the trailblazers for that, for black, queer, people of color on television.
01:02So growing up, who did you see yourself in on television?
01:07What was the first time you saw yourself on TV?
01:11Let it marinate.
01:13I think this is going to maybe sound far-fetched, but it's my truth.
01:19The first time I saw something and saw myself was when I saw the bodyguard, Whitney Houston.
01:30I instantly connected to her.
01:34There was something about her spirit, something about her energy that I was smitten by.
01:41And I knew that there was something there for me that I needed to uncover.
01:47And so that kind of began my love affair with music and theater and acting and the arts.
01:54So that was the first time, which, you know, maybe is unexpected coming from a man, but...
02:01I mean, that's perfect.
02:02That was, for me, the first time that I saw myself on the screen.
02:07And what a soundtrack.
02:09Yes.
02:09I'm not going to lie.
02:12I will say I saw myself first on, and this may sound far-fetched as well, but Noah's Ark.
02:19I used to watch that show all the time.
02:23And it spoke to me so much because not only was it, like, showing African-American gay men in a wonderful light,
02:30but it also made sure that they implemented trans women in the forefront in certain episodes.
02:36And I was really happy about that, and I saw a lot of myself in those women.
02:40Or the opposite way.
02:42Either way, it was amazing.
02:44Right.
02:44The cast.
02:45The cast, everything, the music, the theme song.
02:49I used to listen to that all the time.
02:51Right?
02:53Right.
02:55Oh, I know it's it.
02:57Oh, yeah.
02:58Iconic.
02:58So, I'm going to go on with the far-fetched trend.
03:02Mine was actually a cartoon, and mine was The Little Mermaid.
03:06I saw a character that did not feel that she fit into the world that she was in, and she wanted more for herself.
03:13And I related to that a lot.
03:16Ariel got me through a lot of hard times.
03:19So, yeah, that was my moment of realizing the possibilities, the magic of the world, and I still hold that with me today.
03:28And Haley's playing the new Ariel, ironically.
03:32What about you guys over here?
03:37That was a good shout-out to Haley.
03:38Wow.
03:43Thank you for asking that question, because I never really thought about it.
03:49The first character, I think I felt like this was loud.
03:52The first character that I remember seeing myself in was in Degrassi.
03:59Y'all remember Degrassi?
04:01Mm-hmm.
04:02Was he Drake?
04:03So, I was...
04:04Good night.
04:05Drake was cute.
04:06I saw myself with Drake.
04:08Wheelchair Jimmy.
04:16But, you know Mario?
04:20Y'all remember Mario?
04:22Mario.
04:23You know, Mario was like...
04:27Was queer.
04:30Was a person of color.
04:33And they were con, bitch.
04:35Mario, come on.
04:37No shade.
04:38I really loved Mario.
04:40I loved the story around it.
04:41I remember watching Degrassi just to see Mario and just to, like, get into Mario's story and everything that was happening around him.
04:48But I didn't, like...
04:50I think I'm still realizing from the other side how important representation is and, like, people seeing themselves on TV.
04:58And not only seeing themselves and people who look like them, but also the experiences that they can relate with.
05:04Like, I was in school when I was watching Degrassi.
05:07So, like, navigating how my queerness showed up in school.
05:12And, like, just relating to what Mario went through in school, like, navigating just a bunch of a-holes and, like, homophobia and...
05:24Bullying.
05:25Bullying and, like, so much harm.
05:28I really resonated with that.
05:29And I just, for a while until seeing Mario and Degrassi, I felt like my experiences were, like, the elephant in the closet.
05:41The thing that happened that nobody really wanted to talk about.
05:45And, you know, just being able to relate to that was really important to me and made me feel less alone.
05:52Awesome.
05:53Awesome.
05:54Real quickly, actually, you didn't go, Angel.
05:57You sure you want me to talk?
05:58No, no, go ahead.
05:59Talk.
06:00I can stay real.
06:01Go ahead.
06:02Uh-huh.
06:03Uh-huh.
06:03Come on.
06:04For me, the first time I saw myself represented was in John Leguizamo's Freak, actually.
06:11I remember sitting in a classroom with a teacher trying to help me navigate through what it was that I was going to do after I finished high school.
06:18And it was the first time I got to see a man be vulnerable.
06:24Yeah.
06:25And right away I knew that that was the route for me.
06:30Awesome.
06:31Awesome.
06:32So my next question kind of goes into the way that the entertainment industry is set up, not for less.
06:41We all know it's systematically not going to be, we're not white, cis, privileged people.
06:50And so prior to Ryan Murphy giving you a call, like, hey, we're going to do this great groundbreaking show.
06:56All of you guys were in entertainment doing whatever you guys, what was the driving force that kept you pushing towards that every single day?
07:05All the no's, all the no thank yous, all the even the rude no thank yous, what kept you going to get to the point where you're getting a call from FX to be on the best show ever?
07:18Well, what kept me going was knowing that there was no blueprint, knowing that everyone was saying no, knowing that there was a biasness out there, knowing that someone had to do the work to change things.
07:31That's what kept me personally going.
07:34And my mother, of course, kept me inspired.
07:37I love my mommy.
07:39And just knowing that other people were coming up after me and seeing my brothers and sisters, also trans men who I don't think are talked about enough, seeing everyone and knowing that we need, you know, a voice.
07:50Yeah.
07:51Absolutely.
07:53I think I had a fire in me that was burning and a desire to prove everybody wrong who said I couldn't do things.
08:00There were, you know, coming out as queer, especially in the church.
08:09I, somebody over here, and I get a witness.
08:12I know.
08:13Yes.
08:15I'm a PK, I understand.
08:16Yeah.
08:16And so before Pose, before I moved to New York, I worked for a church.
08:23And before I was able to embrace my identity, before I was willing to accept, I confided in my pastor that I was attracted to men and I lost my job.
08:38And what kind of church?
08:40Non-denominational.
08:41Okay.
08:41In our exit meeting, he said to me that I was going to ruin my life.
08:49And for me, that was the thing that always propelled me forward is that I cannot not do this because there are kids all over the world, all over the country, who are being told that who they are isn't right.
09:08And that they can't achieve the things that they know that they were put here to do because somebody else doesn't understand them.
09:17And I knew that I needed to, like Haley said, be the blueprint for that.
09:21I knew I needed to break through whatever walls may be there, invisible, imaginary, or actual walls.
09:28I needed to break through them, and that's what Pose is allowing me to do is just break down barriers for young black queer men.
09:38So I'm forever grateful for Ryan Murphy and FX for the opportunity to do that.
09:44Absolutely.
09:45I would say, for me, when I saw the breakdown, and this was before agents had sent me anything, I saw that each and every one of these women, as well as the men, were of color, whether they be Latino, Latina, black, or any person of color.
10:07I just knew that they were of color, and I was like, well, one, I have to be a part of it because of this, but also because of the human aspects that they had.
10:14In the breakdown, they showed every single thing that certain cisgendered individuals get casted for.
10:21We had them, too, and I was like, okay, this goes to show that we're being seen as humans, and that's the first thing that anyone should see us as is human, right?
10:29We shouldn't be seen as anything other than, I mean, yes, we are trans.
10:33Yes, we are African American and Latino and Latina, but we're much more than that.
10:38We are human, and I made sure.
10:41First, before anything.
10:42Okay, and that's not taking away the burdens that have been put on our backs because of the colors of our skin.
10:50You know, that's not taking that away at all.
10:52Instead, it enhances it so people can see how we live, what we did in 1987, how we worked hard to get to where we are today.
11:00The women that were in our spots at one point who were not here to speak for us because they passed on.
11:05God bless their souls, but we're speaking for them now, and that's the best part of this whole process is seeing those breakdowns, seeing that we can step inside of those shoes.
11:16And, I mean, I don't know.
11:17Listen, I don't like feeling shoes because it's a hard thing to do.
11:20Feeling shoes is a hard thing to do, but I was glad I got to step in those big shoes because it meant that we were doing something bigger than what we already are right here, right now.
11:29So, you're doing it.
11:31Okay.
11:32Y'all all doing it.
11:33All right.
11:34I'll shave.
11:39So, kind of moving on.
11:40Hold up.
11:40I didn't have to tell you.
11:41Oh, you want to talk?
11:42Okay.
11:43You got to jump in.
11:44It's like double dutch, girl.
11:45Come on.
11:48The dialer didn't move yet.
11:49So, but what kept me going, I didn't really, like what I actually wanted to do was be a part of improving the human race.
12:12Um, I think I was inspired the most to do that because of the things that I went through, because of the human race.
12:21Um, and I also like grew up a Jehovah's Witness and like there's always like this solution oriented, um, kind of like atmosphere in the Kingdom Hall and in the church.
12:38But I didn't really feel like they, it was just like there was this idea that there was nothing that we could do personally, ourselves, to change the world around us and that we would have to wait for God to do it.
12:50And so, like, that wasn't necessarily my perspective.
12:54I think that, um, the decisions that we make as human beings so much influence, um, other people around us.
13:02So, I felt like there was more of a responsibility in the people around me to change.
13:08Um, so like, um, I, I, I knew that I can act.
13:14I, I, you know, I was very confident.
13:17It wasn't necessarily, I still am, you know, in some ways, but it wasn't necessarily something that I always wanted to do.
13:25I never always wanted to be an actor.
13:27I wanted to, um, uh, at first I wanted to go to college.
13:32I wanted to, uh, study philosophy.
13:34I wanted to study psychology because I wanted to do more one-on-one with kids who were experiencing what I was doing, what I was experiencing, what I was going through, especially through foster care or whatever.
13:44Um, and then, um, I just was thinking bigger and bigger, like, what can I do to influence the world around me and to, like, help change and make people, you know, help people to become better.
13:56I didn't know anything about white supremacy.
13:58I didn't know anything about systemic racism.
14:00I didn't know anything about colonialism.
14:03I didn't know about any of those histories growing up.
14:05But I didn't know that there was something that was wrong.
14:08And the more that I became aware of what was happening, the more that I felt emboldened to do something about it.
14:15So I, um, I, because of an experience that I had, um, I had gotten really sick and then I healed myself.
14:25Um, and then with, like, with natural medicine and then I was inspired to become a naturopathic nutritionist.
14:33I wanted to go to school and become a natural doctor.
14:35Wow.
14:36And, um, a naturopathic doctor.
14:38And, like, this was something that I was really, really headstrong about.
14:41Everyone, um, in foster care that was helping me navigate my life knew that that's something that I wanted to do when they tried to help me get the resources to go to college and things like that.
14:51Going to school was really tough.
14:53I dropped out in 10th grade.
14:54Um, there was constant bullying all around me in school and foster care.
14:58I was going from house to house, so I couldn't really focus on going to school.
15:02So I was just, I felt like I was in a state of, like, stuckness, but I knew that I had to make something for myself to support myself and to stay alive.
15:11But I never got the grounding that I needed to do that.
15:14So what kept me going was just knowing that I needed to survive and that I deserved to live, first and foremost,
15:20because you can't achieve your dreams or do anything that you want to do without first being able to live and survive and have people around you that support you.
15:29So, you know, I was working on my family and trying to bring my family back into my life.
15:35I met somebody named Jose Extravaganza, became a part of the House of Extravaganza, and he sent me an audition for Saturday Church, and at this time I was having a lot of trouble.
15:52Saturday Church is...
15:53Saturday Church is a really incredible film.
15:55You have to see, oh my God.
15:56MJ and I, that's how I know MJ.
15:58MJ and I played in it.
16:00You guys are both in a ballroom scene?
16:02They're...
16:03Okay.
16:03It's based in ballroom culture.
16:06It's based around ballroom culture.
16:07So I did Saturday Church, and it was an amazing experience.
16:10It was the first experience that I had, like, on camera.
16:14And that changed my mother's perspective.
16:18And then, like, when I got the support of my mom, that's when I...
16:23When she saw Saturday Church, she went to the bathroom, she was crying, she was really emotional, and she had, like, this existential crisis around how present she wasn't being for her kid, and how present she could have been, and how things would have been different.
16:36And, like, so that experience happened for her, and I got so much hope, like, from having my mom, for having my mom, you know, starting to see me and, like, validate me.
16:48Like, all of those things really empowered me and made me feel so grounded.
16:53And then, you know, I felt like I can accomplish anything.
16:56Amazing.
16:57And so from then on, you know, just knowing somebody who knew somebody, I met my manager, Lisa Kelly, who's the mother of the main character, Luca Cain, in Saturday Church.
17:07And she sent me Alexa Fogel's casting notice for Pose about two years later, was it, MJ?
17:13About two years later, and then I went.
17:16And I was like, oh, shit, I was like, yeah.
17:19And now you're here.
17:20So then, you know, now I'm here, and then I realized that I can still do what I wanted to do around changing and influencing the world around me through being Angel on Pose and through my representation as an artist.
17:32Yeah, that's so crazy.
17:33Because a lot of people actually read a post recently about how now media is kind of going towards a celebrity of being LGBT, and a lot of people are not going to the White House or the Capitol to do the work.
17:46But honestly, the media is so huge and influences so many people that it is doing the work.
17:51I think people all kind of take away that weight from the creative side of the industry.
17:57Angel, I'm going to ask you this question first.
17:59So, diversity and inclusion seems to be a very popular phrase that we've heard in the past, let's say, ten or so years, being accountable, whatever.
18:08And I, too, work in the facet of entertainment, and what I've seen personally is that companies are doing a great job, however, there's so much more to be done.
18:23And there's been situations that I've been in personally where I kind of felt more of a quota than having diversity and inclusion.
18:29So, do you guys have any experiences, or what would you like to actually see these companies do to really maximize their power to be truly diverse and inclusive when it comes to seeing people like us on the television?
18:47You sure you want to hear me talk?
18:49I absolutely do.
18:50Let us know.
18:51I think for starters, we have to start giving opportunities to the right people.
18:57We can't just write stories about the people that they see are now finally making money for them, and so it becomes an instant, oh, this is popular.
19:07Okay, we need to put it out there.
19:10But it's not enough to put it out there.
19:12You have to make sure that the people that are putting it out there are the people from those experiences, from those backgrounds who are in it, who have those day-to-day experiences.
19:22Otherwise, really, who are you helping?
19:26Because the stories that are going to end up out there aren't going to be authentic.
19:30They're not going to be true, because it's not coming from the people that are living it on a day-to-day basis.
19:35Amen.
19:37Drop the mic.
19:38Go ahead.
19:39So, I think, like, the world is really interested in trans and queer people's lives.
19:48And, like, I know the industry wants to bank off that, right?
19:52So, like, they want a little piece, you know, everybody voguing.
19:55You know, when Madonna happened, when Madonna brought vogue into mainstream and, like, brought so much of our culture, you know, people were really inspired.
20:04And there was, like, this buzz.
20:05People were really interested in what our lives were like, et cetera.
20:08And I feel like that's happening now again.
20:10But, like, whenever people are, like, trying to tell our stories, you know, first and foremost.
20:16Or you.
20:17For...
20:18I always wonder, like, why, do you know why you want to tell my story?
20:22You know, why do you want to tell my story?
20:25Especially if you're not including us in it.
20:28You know?
20:29Like, why would you, like, want to tell stories about a marginalized demographic that you don't even care about?
20:36You know?
20:37So, like, I be thinking about those things.
20:39You know, when we're talking about cis people playing trans people and arguing, you know, these actors are arguing their entitlement to, like, playing anything they want.
20:52But it's like, I don't want you playing.
20:54You clearly don't care about how we feel around you occupying our experiences.
20:59Why would you want to play a role you don't care about?
21:01Especially occupying, you know, an experience in a life that is already marginalized.
21:10Like, what?
21:12Do you even know why you want to take on the role?
21:14Oh, you just want to expand and stretch and show people that you can act?
21:18Right.
21:18Or care.
21:19Because you want to play a tree?
21:20You want to...
21:20What she said?
21:22You want to play a tree?
21:29Lord have mercy.
21:30See, this side of the couch.
21:32If I could talk about that, I agree 100%.
21:34Yeah.
21:35I think it even needs to start deeper within actors.
21:37I think it needs to start within the writing rooms and in directors.
21:40Absolutely.
21:40Like, we need to have people that are like us writing and directing the things that we're a part of.
21:45Mm-hmm.
21:46Especially just like how we can do with our culture, we can do with the trans culture and our movement.
21:51And I think that's how you make things happen.
21:54If you don't do that, then the stories will not be as true as they need to be.
21:57We need to be in the forefront and in the background as well.
22:00It can't just work one way.
22:02Mm-hmm.
22:02Right.
22:03To piggyback off of the rest of my cast, I equate this subject matter to blackface.
22:08You know, there was a time where black artists were not allowed to play and portray themselves.
22:11And, you know, the white community was portraying them for them in a very derogatory way.
22:17So, I equate this to the same thing in everything else my cast said.
22:23One final thing.
22:25And I'm not just saying this because we work for him.
22:30But one of the things that's brilliant about Ryan Murphy is that he has truly empowered, he's empowered us, he's empowered so many other trans and queer folks to tell their own stories.
22:43From giving Stephen Canals and Janet Mock and Our Lady J the ability to expand what they were already adding to the world and all of us as well.
22:54So, I think that that is really the key about what India and Angel and all of them are saying.
22:59It's great that you see value in us because there's a lot of value in us, right?
23:05But the key is to not just want to profit off of us, but to want to empower us to be able to stand on our own and to be able to stand in these rooms with the executives to make money-making decisions.
23:18That's what the key is to empowering us to be able to run this shit.
23:23Come on, affirmative action.
23:25That's actually one of my favorite things about Pose, the show, is because I have a lot of friends who are in New York, like Twiggy and all of them.
23:31I'm happy that they are, like you said, Janet, they are in the rooms, they are creating the content.
23:35It's not, you know, a bunch of white folks, sorry guys, making, writing the show.
23:40They have people in the rooms who are lived experiences, and so I really appreciate that about Ryan Murphy and the effects of the show.
23:47I kind of want to divert the conversation to HIV.
23:51That's been a heavy topic this season of Pose, and I do a lot of work in the HIV field, and so I've been in certain spaces.
23:58And one thing I've noticed is that a lot of the people who have done the work in the 80s and the 90s don't necessarily want to pass the torch onto us who are doing the work now.
24:13Because a lot of people, I mean, if you think about it, LGBT history just entered the school system recently, and only in some states and cities.
24:22Right, and so I was very unfamiliar, if I didn't seek out the information, I was not going to receive it.
24:29So I wanted to kind of ask, like, you as a younger generation, like, do you feel kind of an importance with teaching our folks about HIV and the history behind what it took to get us PrEP, you know, TAS, all these initiatives to help our generation now?
24:48Go ahead.
24:51Go ahead.
24:52I think that it's imperative that it's on this show because there is a stigma that is constantly held around having HIV and AIDS, and the history is important.
25:09Not only were there people just dying within weeks, but there were peaks, and I've mentioned this before, but I feel like I have to let this be known because it's truth.
25:18It's statistics.
25:20In 1987 through 1988 and so on, there were 20,000 individuals who had passed on, and then when 1990, 1991, 1992 hit, it was a peak of 20,000 more individuals who had passed, which made it 40,000 people.
25:35And a lot of people don't know that, and also, there is still a stigma held around that, and that's why.
25:41There's still a stigma held around that, and that is why a lot of people don't want to tell that story.
25:47But it's important.
25:49Absolutely.
25:49It needs to be heard because that goes to show how much work is put in, but how much more work needs to be done around finding a cure.
25:58Mm-hmm.
25:58Absolutely.
25:59Absolutely.
25:59Yeah.
26:00So this season, actually, this past week's episode and the week before, for those of y'all who haven't seen Pose, you're about to get a spoiler.
26:13Ricky finds out he's HIV positive.
26:15Mm-hmm.
26:16And if you ain't watched the show, that's your bad.
26:18And you got to.
26:20But Ricky finds out he's HIV positive this season.
26:23And that, when I first read it in the script, I mourned for the character because I just, I didn't want to see him go through that.
26:36But I'm so grateful to be able to tell that story.
26:38Do you know that over half of the new cases of HIV have occurred in the South in 2017?
26:51And that almost half of those folks are African-American?
26:56And of the folks who have contracted it, a large majority of them are African-American and identify as gay and bisexual.
27:03So being from the South, what that says to me is people are not talking about it.
27:10Mm-hmm.
27:11Because if they were talking about it, they would know their status and they would not be spreading.
27:17There's just, and knowing what it's like growing up in the South, knowing what it's like to grow up in the South and be queer and to be black, there's a huge stigma around the intersection of those identities.
27:29And then on top of that, adding HIV, you don't even understand how conversations about HIV prevention don't even happen.
27:38I didn't learn about the consequences of HIV and what prevention looked like and what treatment looked like until I moved to New York City eight years ago,
27:51which is mind-blowing for me that I was 23 years old before and had to end up with a scare to realize that I needed to know more about this.
28:03And so the beautiful thing about Pose is that we get to come into people's homes week after week and they get to get attached to these characters and they get to see the humanity in these people.
28:14And that's the key to ending stigma, is being able to see somebody that you know, and that's what television does.
28:21We grow close to these characters and we feel like we know them and we mourn for them the way that I mourned for Ricky when I read it.
28:28And so if we can take that and harness that power to encourage more conversations amongst families and amongst schools and amongst churches about dealing with this problem in the South and in black communities and queer communities,
28:46I think that that's really where the key is.
28:48Right, and holistically too, because there's no sexual health for queer and trans people, you know, in schools, like that doesn't make sense.
28:59Yeah, in education systems, yeah.
29:01So, and I think that's a large part of it.
29:03And like, I think a lot of people think that the cure to AIDS and HIV, a lot of cis-hetero people think that the cure to AIDS and HIV is the eradication of trans and queer people.
29:14And that's just not true, right?
29:18So, like, the lack of information and the stigma that already exists contributes more to transphobia and queerphobia.
29:27And, you know, there needs to be a lot more education around it for queer and trans people as well.
29:32Absolutely.
29:33For sex health.
29:33Yeah, and of course, obviously, with, you know, being black, Latino, we have a whole other heap of issues with the family, the church,
29:42and transphobia, we have a whole other pack of issues that, before we even get to the treatment, that we have to unpack and deal with.
29:50So, it's a whole other story.
29:52So, I commend you guys for doing that.
29:55I kind of want to switch to gears and talk about colorism.
30:02Because...
30:02Talk about it.
30:02Let's talk about it.
30:03Let's have a conversation.
30:04Talk about it.
30:05So, for the room, colorism, I am Afro-Latino.
30:09My mom's from Panama.
30:10I am a fair shade of black.
30:14I have more privilege in the role who may be of a darker complexion.
30:18So, one of the...
30:20People say everything about...
30:21Everyone has something to say all the time.
30:22But one of the critiques with Pose was the colorism.
30:28And actually, you, Haley, you said a line at Angelica's funeral, or Miss Candy with the hammer.
30:33Light-skinned and thick.
30:34Yeah, she's like, oh, I thought you wanted to be a friend to me because I'm light-skinned and thick.
30:37And that was a very intentional line that I caught.
30:41And so, I kind of want to talk about how colorism has played into the writing and also, like, the casting of the show.
30:48I think colorism is one of the most subconscious biases that exists because black people also contribute to it, too.
31:03And people of color also contribute to it, too.
31:05Especially when you're light-skinned.
31:07You know, you don't really see how you're contributing to colorism.
31:11And in a lot of ways, you know, that white people don't see themselves contributing to white supremacy or, like, anti-blackness in a lot of ways, right?
31:25So, like, I think people have brought up concerns around colorism.
31:38And, you know, like, people have, you know, noticed how, you know, Dominique and Candy are, you know, seem to be the villains, you know, of the show.
31:53I like Elektra. She's my favorite character.
31:56I also love Elektra.
31:57She will raise you now.
31:57And I also love Candy.
31:59And, you know what I mean?
32:00Like, I think they also go through the most of all the characters because they're dark-skinned black trans women.
32:08And, you know, their experiences aren't the same.
32:11But I think, like, a lot of the way it was written was intentional to demonstrate, you know, not that they are villainous, but that they go through a lot.
32:23Their experiences have been tough and that they've had to protect everything that they do have and are constantly fighting for space, even in their own community, like we saw Candy constantly having to do.
32:35You know, that shit is real.
32:36You know, in the ballroom community, there was a point where dark-skinned black and brown people weren't feeling visible and favored and, you know what I mean, like, essential to the community.
32:52Because all the light-skinned girls, the Latina girls, you know, were, like, kind of coming in and, like, you know, there's so much centricism around light-skinnedness and proximity to it.
33:04You know, white woman cunt.
33:06You know, like, that is a phrase in the ballroom scene that is commending somebody who is beautiful.
33:16Like, oh, she's giving me white woman cunt, like, you know, yes, like, you know, that's actually, like, a praise.
33:23You know what I mean?
33:23So, like, it's just, there's so much, I think, like, there's so many ways that I think we as people of color adopt anti-blackness unintentionally.
33:34But because of the way the world around us shows us to ourselves through its own perspective of what blackness looks like, what blackness deserves and what blackness does not.
33:46So, I think, like, yes, I don't, I'm not in the writer's room, but I do know that a lot of the way the character's written were intentional.
33:56And I think that we're going to get to see these characters evolve, you know, a lot more.
34:03But, you know, yeah, it was something that I was also concerned about, too, because I'm like, damn, why is it that Angel's, like, the darling?
34:12You know what I mean?
34:12Like, she's like, she seems like the darling, and everybody else seems like the darling.
34:16But then, you know, we have Lulu, who is a bitch.
34:20Misunderstood, I'd rather say that.
34:21And Hailey's the lightest, Hailey's the lightest, the most lightest skinned girl, you know what I mean, on, on, on, on post, of us, um, um, uh, trans women and femmes of color.
34:33So, it's like, there is, you know what I mean, like, there, there's, there's a nuance in it all, but I also think it's really incredible to see the ways that, um, Electra is growing into her character.
34:45And I think that there, there still is a lot of work to be done, and everyone is aware of that.
34:50I want to, I'm sorry, where are you going?
34:52I would, just to piggyback off of that, and I'll be quick, is, I don't know if there's a colorism issue with Pose, but if, if, based on, just piggybacking off of what India is saying, there is a colorism issue in the world.
35:06Right.
35:06And what Pose is, is taking a microscope, is, um, into issues that are occurring in the world.
35:14Um, so, that's, that's the piece that I was going to say about it.
35:18I was, I was just going to say that, um, this subject matter for me personally is very touching.
35:24I am a multiracial young woman.
35:26Many people don't know that I am black, but both my parents are black, and I'm mixed.
35:30And so, growing up, for me, I'm also a preacher's kid, and I grew up in a Baptist church.
35:35Me too.
35:36Did you?
35:37What's up?
35:37You understand me a lot more then.
35:38Uh-huh, we see each other.
35:40So, um, my world was very challenging, um, as far as colorism goes, because though I, I do understand there are privileges to being a lighter complected, I also want to address, there were times where I was bullied or treated very, very bad by doctors.
35:57Or not black enough?
35:58Not black, I'm always not something enough, because no one knows what I am.
36:02Yeah, that part.
36:03Or, I never really felt like I fit in anywhere.
36:06Though I was treated bad by sometimes darker-skinned people, I understood as I got older why.
36:11And I understood that there was a privilege that I had.
36:14Even though I wasn't carrying myself that way, that was the perception.
36:18And I think that that subject matter dates way, way far back.
36:21Way far back.
36:22Deep.
36:22I mean, we were brought over to this land.
36:24So, it dates way far back, and I understand it.
36:27So, I will say that, I'm not in the writer's room either, but I will say that I'm glad that we're talking about it now.
36:32And I think that's the intention of the show.
36:37Absolutely.
36:38I'll say something, too.
36:41I agree with every single last person.
36:43If I could drop maybe a piece of knowledge.
36:45Colorism has been something, like we have all said, that has been in this world for years and beyond.
36:53In Africa, they chop off albino limbs because they think it's magical.
37:01And that's something that has been embedded, I'm sorry to the white people in the room, but it is embedded by white people due to colonialism and colorism.
37:10So, that is something that we have to tackle with every single day simply because that has been embedded.
37:16And I think, like everyone has said, it's a magnifying glass on how that is a trickle effect, a trickle effect.
37:24And sometimes it's hereditary and where people are just have that, and there are some times where people have to learn themselves out of that and get out of that.
37:32And I think that's a wonderful thing that Post is doing is learning themselves out of it simply due to the trans experience, but also as people of color in a realm where they're separated from other people.
37:42Juxtaposition between people who are working in Wall Street and us being down in the underground.
37:47So, yeah, I mean, I agree upon everything that everyone has said, but that's something that has happened.
37:53And it needs to be seen.
37:55It has to be seen.
37:56Unlearning.
37:58Unlearning, for sure.
38:00I didn't hear about it.
38:00I got to get into that albino story.
38:03Yes, girl.
38:04Google.
38:05Listen, baby.
38:06I got to get into Google.
38:07I didn't really know that was happening.
38:09I know they was chopping people up elsewhere, too.
38:13We haven't got to talk about that, right?
38:14So, India.
38:15It's true.
38:17No, I'm going to Google that when I get home, too.
38:19So, India, you identify as non-binary trans.
38:27I wanted to ask you specifically what has, because the conversations around pronouns and
38:36all these different things has been fairly new for mass media, but not new for everybody
38:42else.
38:42So, what has been your experience being a tall, model-esque, non-binary person?
38:51Well, I really appreciate that we now have an evolving language around gender variance
38:59and transness now, because I think the entire, like, Latin culture evolved.
39:10Like, Latin culture, you know, English, French, you know, the colonial culture grew and evolved.
39:18I mean, like, European culture that is now our culture, Western culture, has developed so much without language of gender variant people.
39:30You know, while a lot of the ancestry that we have as people of color, there was a language that acknowledged our existences, where for so long there was not.
39:41So, like, now I think our culture holistically throughout the world is evolving to include language that acknowledges the existences of trans and gender variant people.
39:57And I think that's really, really important, because colonialism took so much of that away.
40:03And I know we stray away from colonialism to make a certain people feel more comfortable, but these are inconvenient truths that have to be talked about, because so much of it, you know, it's an important historical factor that contributes to where we are today.
40:20And it's important for everyone to learn about, you know, regardless of how inconvenient that truth may be for you.
40:26So, you know, y'all shady.
40:33But, um, so, like, I, me identifying as non-binary was more like a choice, because I found and I noticed that, um, a lot, binaries cause violence.
40:50And binaries also create the expectation for people to perform a certain way within their gender.
40:56And nobody fully performs within those expectations fully.
41:00And I think also, like, it reminds me of, like, oh my god, there's so much, there's so much gender war, binaries have created so much gender war, and, and, and, and, and binaries created patriarchy.
41:16And I think, like, I think about the first things that young boys are told when they're expressing themselves naturally, when they're expressing their emotions, when they're crying, you know, when, when, when, you know, they, they, they, when they're just expressing themselves, they're compared to girls as an insult, right?
41:35Like, like, oh, why you acting like a girl, fuck a thing, right?
41:39And then, you know, so it's like, binaries cause violence.
41:44And me identifying as non-binary is a way for me to forfeit the binaries that I feel, um, limit the way that I'm able to express myself, even as a woman.
42:01Like, like, I didn't shave my legs today.
42:03And I still think about, you know, I didn't shave my underarms, they hairy as hell.
42:08And you know how many people tell me that it's disgusting?
42:12Like, on Instagram, when I post a picture, like, my body's, but they don't tell this to men.
42:16Men don't, men aren't told that they are disgusting and that their body is nasty because they chose not to shave.
42:24And so, like, the expectations that are, that we're forced to, like, live, like, it's too much.
42:31And you know what?
42:32I'm just opting out.
42:33I'm they, them.
42:34Right.
42:35And I'm going to put you through the labor to get it together.
42:37And that's it.
42:39My underarms are bushy as fuck.
42:42And my legs are hairy today.
42:45And you know what?
42:46Those are the subtle ways in which I trespass the convention of gender.
42:49I am very femme.
42:51You know, I express myself in very femme ways.
42:53But I do feel more comfortable having a relationship with my masculinity because I'm non-binary.
42:59And also, it don't even matter.
43:01You don't have to be non-binary to have healthy relationships with femininity and masculinity.
43:07Amen.
43:08Awesome.
43:08But that's just my political choice and my identity.
43:11Amen.
43:12So before we open up the floor for questions, in one word, what do you want the audience, the viewers,
43:22people watching Pose on FX, what do you want them to receive watching you guys tell these stories?
43:32I have a word, but I want to say something after it.
43:34Okay, go ahead.
43:35I say this on every interview that I do.
43:38So someone in this room has heard this before.
43:40The one word that I want you to take away from this is love.
43:44Now, I want to give you an example.
43:46If you ever did not understand what it meant to be a human, when we say humanizing and just to be a human,
43:52everyone in this room was a child at one point in their lives.
43:55Everybody.
43:56When you were a child, you saw friends that you wanted to play with.
43:59You did not see color.
44:01You did not see gender.
44:02You did not see any of those barriers.
44:04That is a learned behavior.
44:05So we naturally are loving beings.
44:09We naturally want to embrace each other.
44:11We learn this stuff.
44:13We're not going to be here forever.
44:15Everyone has a time where we're here, and then we transition on to wherever we go.
44:20While you're here, enjoy each other's company.
44:23Enjoy each other and love each other.
44:25And if you never understood, if you never understood, and I'm almost done,
44:31if you never understood what it meant to be a human, remember yourself as a child.
44:37Amen.
44:42I know this is a weird word to choose, but unconditional.
44:48Just look up the definition of unconditional and see what that means,
44:52and then you can tie it in with exactly what she just said.
44:55Without conditions.
44:56Boom.
44:58Exactly.
44:59Right.
45:00Without conditions.
45:01What about you guys?
45:05Power.
45:07Power.
45:08There's power in owning who you are.
45:12There's power in your authenticity.
45:14There's power in your truth.
45:16Your uncompromised truth.
45:22You sure you want me to talk?
45:24Yes, I do.
45:27Deprogramming.
45:28I think it's about time we start unlearning the scripts that have been handed down to us.
45:39There are different demographics that watch Pose.
45:43I think, like, to, um, the people who aren't queer, who aren't trans, I want them to walk
45:50away with knowing that, um, we deserve to have mothers like Blanca, um, in our lives.
45:57We deserve to have families like the House of Evangelista in our lives.
46:03Um, and, you know, we, we deserve the ones that we came into the world with, also.
46:09Um, and we deserve to expand our families with, um, our chosen families as well.
46:16Um, we deserve love, we deserve to be loved in safety, um, trans people, trans women deserve
46:23to be loved in safety, whether it's in the safety of our romantic partnerships, or it's
46:28in the safety of our families, or in the safety of the communities that we grew up in.
46:33Um, trans, black trans women and, um, fems deserve love and protection and safety, um, by the people
46:43around us.
46:44Um, I want queer and trans people who are black and brown to, um, take away that, just to affirm
46:57that we're incredible, we're beautiful, we're amazing, um, you know, like, we're magical,
47:04um, and, you know, we're, it's incredible the way that we create for ourselves everything
47:10that's taken away from us.
47:11We create for ourselves everything that's taken away from us, and everybody still want
47:16it.
47:17And so, you know, and even what we create for ourselves, people still don't want us to have
47:23that.
47:23So I think, like, Pose is an incredible platform and television show that creates that crosstalk
47:29between people.
47:31And, um, I just want to end with lastly that to trans and queer people who are not of color,
47:37who relate to everything on the show, keep relating to your black and brown, queer and
47:43trans kin.
47:44Amen.
47:45Because we need your power, we need that validation and that love and that affirmative action,
47:52honey.
47:52So, you know, center queer and trans black and brown people anywhere that you can.
48:02And the whole world is about you.
48:05So make it, make it an action in your day to make it about black and trans, black and brown
48:13trans and queer people.
48:14Amen.
48:15Okay.
48:15As of daily practice and mantra.
48:18So, quickly, I'm going to bring up Alexis Fish from Billboard.
48:23Come on up now.
48:25Everybody say hi, girl.
48:29I didn't want to cut off the Q&A, though.
48:32So...
48:32Do you want to do the Q&A first?
48:34A couple?
48:34Let's, like, three questions, please.
48:36Yeah.
48:36Yes.
48:38Yes.
48:44Hey, everyone.
48:45My name is Mache.
48:46I use they, them, she, her pronouns.
48:48And what I'm taking away from this conversation and what I've known is, like, the biggest issues
48:52in this world are men, whiteness, and capitalism, right?
48:56And so, it can seem really overwhelming to try to tackle all of those things at once.
49:02And so, I'm constantly thinking about what is making the most change, whether that be
49:07media representation like y'all are doing, whether that be policy change.
49:11And I'm curious as to what y'all think is the best way or a multiplicity of ways to getting
49:18us toward that liberation.
49:20I don't know that there is a best way.
49:22I think that it's comprehensive.
49:24I think that you have to use whatever influence and whatever power you have in your sphere
49:30to create the change you want to see, whether that be with policy, whether that be in the
49:34media and in the arts, whether that be in your own homes, by, you know, or whether that
49:40be looking in the mirror and dismantling the toxic masculinity that you have to deal with,
49:45the patriarchy, the white supremacy, the cap, you know, whatever your thing is in your
49:50sphere that you have control over, that you can influence, that's where you start.
49:54And it's a ripple effect.
49:56I think it's comprehensive.
49:59I think, just really quickly, centering organizations that are doing the work on the ground because
50:07they, I think the orgs that are doing the work, like National Bailout, and there are a few
50:13others that I don't, that flew across the top of my head.
50:18I'm embarrassed about it.
50:19But there are a lot of orgs that are not GLAD and GLSEN and HRC, love them, but there's just
50:26not enough on-the-ground work that I see right now.
50:29And there are orgs that are doing that work, that are working 24-7 and doing that work.
50:35So I think, like, centering those orgs are really important.
50:38I'm working on a list of those orgs.
50:41Post it on your gram.
50:43To post on my gram on Twitter.
50:47The Trans-Latina Coalition.
50:48Say it again.
50:49The Trans-Latina Coalition is one of them.
50:52Oh, we have some representatives right here in the front row.
50:53Yes.
50:54And transgender legal defense also, but that's it.
50:59Did you want to add something, Haley?
51:00Very briefly.
51:01I agree with both of my cast members.
51:03To answer your question, like Delon said, I don't think it's one way.
51:07Indy and I talked about this before.
51:08There's a big block of hatred, right?
51:10And on this angle of the block, someone's chipping away with activism work.
51:15On this end, someone's not going to relate to that activism because maybe they're not into that.
51:19So someone's chipping away with just being a good person.
51:21So social media, I think it's different ways that's going to tackle this monster.
51:26It's not just one.
51:27Amen.
51:28With the block analogy.
51:31One more question.
51:33Hi.
51:34There we go.
51:34Hi.
51:35You guys are such great actors just in general.
51:37Watching the show, I'm like really blown away by your performances.
51:40But I would like to know if you could do an ideal character and didn't have to be necessarily queer or trans,
51:46like what kind of characters would you guys do?
51:48Like serial killer?
51:50You know what I'm just saying?
51:51Oh.
51:52Baby, give me a romantic comedy because I'm silly as all hell.
51:57Or give me like a strong Marvel.
52:00Like give me a Marvel strong character.
52:02But she doesn't have to be trans.
52:04She can be.
52:05It does not matter.
52:06I think people need to see us in certain aspects, but not just with the transness added on to it.
52:10Just to see our, you know, the work that we can contribute.
52:13Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
52:14So, yeah.
52:14Again, if I can just know from everybody.
52:17I want to be a Bond girl.
52:19Oh.
52:20I see that for you, Haley.
52:22I see that, baby.
52:24Yes, I see it.
52:25And that's all I'm going to say on that.
52:28I love it.
52:29I grew up loving like action adventure movies.
52:32So, I've always wanted to be like an Indiana Jones kind of a thing or something like that.
52:37I don't sing, and I have two left feet outside of Bachata, but if you throw some Prince my way, I'd love to tear that up.
52:50So, not a Prince biopic.
52:53I can see it.
52:54I can see it.
52:59I can see it.
53:00All right.
53:00Good looking.
53:00Good looking.
53:01Um, so, not the, not the Dominican Prince biopsy.
53:08Come on, dyke man.
53:09Um, I'm generally more so attracted to characters that are misunderstood and underlooked and, um, you know, seen for, you know, just like seen by the outside world for what's happening on the surface.
53:35You know, um, but, you know, I'm really interested in playing those characters that have so much more, um, to show for and contribute.
53:46I don't know.
53:47That can be anything.
53:48It could be a doctor.
53:49It could be, it could be, you know, a politician.
53:53I mean, fuck politicians right now, but it could be, it could be like, I mean, I would be that radical politician to play, you know, like.
54:01An ACO.
54:02I don't know.
54:02Like, I would, I would, I'm really down to play anything.
54:04I'm really, really into sci-fi and action and fantasy.
54:09Like, I'm a little here for horror, too.
54:12But, I mean, like, I would love to occupy a character in any of those worlds.
54:18Um, I love sci-fi because it imagines, um, you know, just the things that we haven't done yet, um, you know, or that we're working toward.
54:27And, yeah, I like, I'll occupy that.
54:29Can we, can we, can we, can we get a question from him?
54:32Uh, cause he's been raised in his head.
54:35Make it fast.
54:35Make it fast.
54:36Okay.
54:37Quickly.
54:38And one in one.
54:39So, um, I grew up, like, very, like, I got, like, a lot of, like, um, I was discriminated against in my own community.
54:46For being as dark as I am, as you can see, I'm very good.
54:50And I used to, like, go out of my way to bleach my skin.
54:52Like, going to, like, Walgreens and getting bleach cream and stuff like that.
54:56And I used to feel very bad.
54:58I used to, like, put waves in my head because I knew that in my community, like, light-skinned people were, like, more praise and stuff like that.
55:04And, like, they would call red bones and yellow bones and stuff like that.
55:08Red.
55:08You know, and, um, now it's, like, I see people like Lupita and, like, I want to be darker.
55:14Like, I wish I was, like, even darker.
55:16Yes.
55:17And, um, cause, like, if I do smile, you see my teeth, honey.
55:21You can tell that I brush, honey.
55:23Like, you see my smile.
55:24Yeah, and, um, I feel like, do you think, like, in the industry, like, people my skin color are being, like, giving opportunities or should we, like, make those opportunities for ourselves because I feel like it's not enough people my skin color.
55:42So, like, I've just started to, like, make, like, YouTube.
55:45I made a YouTube channel.
55:46I have, like, six Instagrams and two and Twitters because I just decided to, like, if no one's going to, like, cast me, I'll just make the opportunities myself.
55:53So, like, do you feel like either, like, they need to make more roles for us or, like, should we just, like, create them for ourselves?
56:00I think more roles definitely need to be made, but I will say that we are living in a time where definitely create your own content for sure.
56:07Be the leader.
56:08Be the writer.
56:08Be the producer.
56:09I have, my grandfather was your shade.
56:11I have a little brother who is your shade as well, and I speak to him a lot about this because he is the darkest out of all of my siblings, and I want you to know, which I'm sure you do because you're very handsome, I want you to know that you are gorgeous, and that color is rich and stunning and amazing and divinely yours.
56:31But, yes, create the content, be the boss, and be in charge.
56:35Yes, you're so beautiful.
56:38So, so we're going to bring out Alexis, and first of all.
56:42I want to add.
56:43Oh, here we go.
56:47That I agree with Haley, and I want to say that I think it's really important to hold productions accountable for the way that they cast because producing shit is really hard,
57:05especially when you don't already have your name out there.
57:08I mean, it took Stephen Canals 12 years to get this close, you know what I mean, until he finally met, like, Ryan Murphy.
57:20So it's a lot of hard work, and, I mean, like, Stephen Canals is a light-skinned girl, you know what I mean?
57:26And it took him 12 years, and, like, in context of colorism, the darkest you are anywhere in the world, you suffer the most.
57:35And in the industry, you know what I mean, you get the least.
57:39You have the least access.
57:40And so, like, affirmative action is really important, especially for, you know what I mean, like, a lot of people of color who are black who get it first usually end up being light-skinned black people or lighter-skinned black people.
57:55And, you know what I mean, like, I didn't barely have any experience, I didn't have any experience except Saturday Church, and then I just went from, literally I'm two years removed from the character story of Angel, right?
58:08And it happened so fast for me.
58:10So I think, yes, creating is so important, but let's be honest, like, it's really hard.
58:18It's really hard.
58:19We should create, too, and I think that we need to put a foot up Hollywood's ass to actually make an intentional effort to cast dark-skinned black people when we're looking for black people to cast in roles.
58:31You know, the first thing that we don't think about to cast is a light-skinned person.
58:35So beautiful.
58:35So beautiful.
58:37Yeah, you know.
58:38Awesome.
58:39Well, thank you so much.
58:40And promise me one thing.
58:41Oh.
58:41You'll never give up.
58:43Just promise me you won't do that.
58:45That's the one thing I don't want you to do is give up.
58:47You see that confidence.
58:48Exactly.
58:49Awesome.
58:51Well, please, a round of applause for all of our panel.
58:53No, I'm just joking.
58:53I'm just joking.
58:54I'm just joking.
58:54I'm just joking.
58:55I'm just joking.
58:56Are you sure?
58:58You sure you want to hit yourself?
58:59Uh-huh.
58:59Yeah, yeah.
59:00Thank you guys so much.
59:02A round of applause for MJ, Hayley, Jalon, Angel.
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