- 19 hours ago
Oscar-nominated screenwriters Taika Waititi ('Jojo Rabbit,' also nominated as a producer) and Anthony McCarten ('The Two Popes') join Lorene Scafaria, Kasi Lemmons, Destin Cretton and Charles Randolph for the full Writer Roundtable.
Category
🎥
Short filmTranscript
00:00Hi, I'm Stephen Galloway, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter Writers.
00:14I'd like to welcome Lorena Scafaria, Taika Waititi, Casey Lemons, Destin Cretton, Charles
00:23Randolph, and Anthony McCartan. Welcome. I want to plunge you in the deep end and start
00:29with Martin Scorsese, said some of the movies now being made, particularly the superhero
00:34movies, a theme park rise, they're not cinema. Agree or disagree? Agree. He's absolutely
00:44right, and I've always said this. Disagree. I know how much work goes into the story, breaking
00:54stories for those films, and how much work goes into shooting and post-production, and
01:01it's all, basically it's all based on story for that studio. And at the end of the day,
01:09whatever's in that rectangle, if it's affecting people emotionally, or it doesn't matter if
01:13it's too colourful, I guess it's too colourful for him. But yeah, all the costumes might not
01:17look Italian enough. I don't know. I can only imagine he's actually worried about the dominance
01:26of that particular type of film. And there is an exaggerated proportion of that type of film
01:32dominating the multiplexes, and that's just a result of the economics of it. They're just making a lot
01:40of money, and the audiences seem to be bottomless for these movies. And while the audience remains for
01:46these movies, they will continue to be dominant until something else is put out there.
01:53Bohemian Rhapsody was a movie I was involved with. People didn't expect that kind of Marvel-level
02:00box office as a result of that. But the good news is that now that's made a case for itself,
02:06and I can see that there's going to be a bit of a deluge of that type of movie. So I think the
02:10challenge starts with us in a way, is that we need to come up with stories that make a case,
02:16an economic case to say there's a massive audience for this. And then the people who run the
02:21multiplexes, the distributors, will be only too happy to put them on there.
02:25But Bohemian Rhapsody was an exception. I mean, you've done Theory of Everything. You've done
02:29Darkest Hour, which were hits, but they weren't $700 or $800 million hits. So how do you create
02:35character-driven films that reach a big audience? Can you?
02:40I think so. I think it's often a combination of the actor and the character that bring excitement
02:50to an audience. So that's what I think Iron Man did. It was Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man. And I think
02:59that was the perfect blend of star power and a character. And so I think that's what people
03:07might turn out for more now, is that.
03:10You know, comic books and graphic novels were always kind of laughed at in the past as not
03:15being real art or not being real stories, which is simply not true. And with superheroes,
03:21it's just new mythology. So I'm sure that when people came up with stories about Zeus or about
03:28different gods or Hercules thousands of years ago, people were like, oh, this is not a real
03:35story. This is bullshit. This guy did all this stuff. But it's actually just taking those
03:42similar things. And eventually, Iron Man will enter into the realm of mythology. And people
03:49will say, oh, yeah. And it's just stories. It's just all that at the end of the day, for
03:53me, is stories that are either teaching you lessons or, you know, helping us experience the human
04:00condition in different ways.
04:02His critique is really about originality, right, at the end of the day. And, you know, once you have
04:08a dedicated group of shared experience amongst these audiences, you can start to play with that.
04:15And maybe we're not there yet. I mean, he's right to the degree that a lot of it is not very
04:19interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, in the aggregate, perhaps, you know, if you were
04:24to do the math, it's in his favor. But are you finding it harder to get more character-driven,
04:30difficult films like Just Mercy off the ground? I feel like we really lucked out with where Just
04:37Mercy landed. We had executives at Warner Brothers who were huge champions of telling the story from
04:44a character's POV that you typically don't see on screen very much. And they honestly have treated
04:51it like they treat their superhero movies. When we were sitting in our marketing meeting, it was a huge
04:59meeting. It was a big campaign of really excited people to—because to them right now, it actually
05:06is something different for the studio to do. So, you know, it was inspiring to see that much passion
05:12for a movie like this. Are there any subjects that you as writers would not touch?
05:17As opposed to, say, 10 years ago or 15 years ago? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What?
05:21You know, the model of appropriation for a screenwriter is complicated, right? Because on one hand, you want
05:28to have a rich variety of characters in your films. On the other hand, if you're wholly embodying a subject
05:33that is alien to your culture and you feel like there are other people who can do it better than you can,
05:38there are things that I would not do today that I would have done 10 years ago.
05:41It gives us an example. There's an adaptation of a book about three African-American kids in New York
05:48who kidnap a white state attorney that I wrote about a decade ago. It's one of my favorite scripts.
05:57It will never get made and probably shouldn't get made because it is just not—it relies too much
06:03on me being in a world that I don't fully understand, I think, at the end of the day,
06:08and no amount of research would probably get me there.
06:10One thing that we have to understand is that the language of the dominant culture
06:15is one that we all speak. But there are specific cultures that we don't—you don't have to be
06:20versed in those languages. So you have to do the work to, you know, figure out what that is.
06:25And that takes—I mean, I've seen very good work outside of culture, obviously.
06:29I think if the empathy is there and the investigation and it's, you know, it's done sincerely
06:36and you have to have the depth of really understanding, and that means digging in,
06:41digging into the research, you know. Of course. Of course. But you have to be—you have to really go
06:47the whole distance. You know, you can't toe dip, you know. So that's—I think when you toe dip,
06:53I can feel it, you know. And when there's deep investigation, deep empathy, and really digging
07:00into the story and the characters, then no. It's, you know, it's just a really good movie.
07:04But we are in a particular era where there's great sensitivity to that. Is there, by contrast,
07:12a film that you would have loved to write that somebody hasn't let you do because they feel
07:17you're not right for it? Well, I'm on the threshold of doing something which is in the—can be accused
07:24or may be accused of appropriation, which is writing a black female character. And—
07:31Real life or not? Real life, yeah.
07:33Who is the character? I'd rather not say, but—
07:37Who is the character? Well, you're free to ask. And freedom is the operative word here. I think
07:44fiction means freedom. And I think we have to fight for that. And so God bless you for, you know,
07:49standing up for the fact that writers must be free to travel. We have to have passports into
07:54every territory. If we had ever pigeonholed ourselves and say, I can only write about being
08:00a middle-aged white man. We're all doing it. Shakespeare would never have written about anything
08:04outside of England. We would have never had Merchant of Venice. He's not a merchant, never went to Venice.
08:09You know, so, you know, we have to fight for it. And again, some strong headwinds because we are get—there is
08:15opposition to writers who chance their arm imaginatively journey into a world they don't know,
08:20but want to know, and are knocked back by people who are saying, you're not of that culture.
08:26Get back in your box. And I think we really have to fight, you know.
08:30But don't you agree? You can't quite be, like, just a tourist, though. You know what I mean?
08:35Yeah.
08:35You have to really do some immersive work.
08:37I can wholeheartedly agree with you. Yeah, you can't flippantly go in and do something—you know,
08:43you have to do deep research and get it right. But isn't that true for every character you do?
08:48It is. But I mean, some are more challenging than others. I mean, I try and really do that investigative work.
08:56But I mean, I do think that so much great work has been written by so many people. I mean,
09:02as a writer, you should be able to be—to explore humanity, you know.
09:06Borderless, yeah.
09:08But when you do—I want to go back to what you said, which is, you know, fiction is freedom.
09:13What are the limits of freedom? Everybody on this table has written a script involving real people.
09:21What are your responsibilities to the truth?
09:24Taika, how much is it okay to fictionalize Hitler?
09:27That version of Hitler that I wrote shares nothing with the real guy other than that mustache, really.
09:33He is conjured from the mind of a 10-year-old, so you can only know what a 10-year-old knows.
09:38And so there's no—and I had no real interest in writing an authentic portrayal or, you know,
09:44or when I played him. I had no interest in actually putting in the effort or putting in the research,
09:51because I just didn't think he deserved it. And I don't want to—I just, yeah,
09:55I don't want to give him the satisfaction of me actually having to read about him and, like,
09:59study his nuances and his mannerisms. I was like, screw this guy, I'm not going to do that.
10:05Can we put your feet to the fire a little bit on that one?
10:08Because it is Hitler. I mean, we identify him as Hitler.
10:11And would you not agree that a lot of the jokes and power of the jokes derive from the fact that
10:16you're—this voice in the air of this boy is Hitler?
10:20And a lot of the humor comes from the fact of the ultimate fascist.
10:23Yeah, absolutely. But there's only one moment when he—when I used some of one of his speeches from one of his rallies. And there's a moment when he gets very serious, and it's really
10:35Jojo's conscience kind of trying—the sort of dark side of his conscience trying desperately to hold on to him. And, um, everything else I tried to write him as—you know,
10:44there's versions of myself in there, and, you know, and how I used to think when I was a kid, and how I, you know, how children perceive the world.
10:52All of that kind of is filtered through that character. And he is just essentially, yes,
10:58it's funny because it's like—it's those ideas and those things being said coming out of the mouth of this, you know, this tyrant.
11:03Sheesh! That was intense.
11:06What am I going to do?
11:08Honestly, no idea. I mean, there could be more of them—hundreds of them living in your walls.
11:16How did she get control like that?
11:17She must have used her powers. Mind control.
11:20Oh, typical.
11:22You see how fast she moved?
11:23Yes.
11:24Oh, like a little female Jewish Jesse Owens. And now she's got your fancy knife.
11:28Oh, my knife!
11:29Yeah, like a little female Jewish Jesse Owens, Jack the Ripper.
11:33You're definitely in a pickle, my friend.
11:35Ah, what to do, what to do.
11:37Oh, got it! I've negotiated!
11:40You're in the house and blame Winston Churchill.
11:42But aren't you worried that in truly fictionalizing him and turning him to a buffoon, you may be
11:47diminishing the threat.
11:49Not worried at all.
11:50But that's what satire does. You invert.
11:53So you make someone who's unserious, serious. You make the serious unserious.
11:57And that's how you skewer power. That's the nature of satire.
12:00I think there's also something else.
12:01Because it's the point of view of a child, you're saying...
12:05I mean, what's scary to me is that a child's view is cartoonish, you know what I mean?
12:10And there's this cartoon kind of character friend that's this extremely dangerous person,
12:15but, you know, in the mind of this child.
12:17And it really makes you understand indoctrination of children in a way.
12:21Yeah.
12:21You know, and I appreciate it on that level.
12:23How much did you feel that you had to stick to the real characters in Hustlers?
12:28I didn't get a chance to meet the real women ahead of time, which was really hard for me,
12:34because creatively I would have loved to have heard every detail.
12:38I think the truth is stranger than fiction, but I had the article to work from.
12:42And so I felt a responsibility to what really happened and the crimes themselves.
12:48I didn't want to water them down.
12:50But I felt a little bit of freedom when it came to the characters,
12:53because we're trying to just tell a story, tell the movie version of it.
12:58So the two characters, they form a friendship and it's kind of a love story between the two of them.
13:04And in reality, they were more like business partners.
13:07So I had to add a lot to the characters and the relationship.
13:12I just want my daughter to be able to do whatever she wants, you know,
13:15go to whatever school she wants or not, if that's what she wants.
13:22I swear I'd do anything for this kid.
13:25Motherhood is a mental illness.
13:28Well, I would explain my mother.
13:42Did you go into strip clubs and do research?
13:44Sure, yeah.
13:45What surprised you about that world?
13:46You know, there's no job security for these women.
13:48They're not employees of these clubs.
13:50They pay house fees.
13:51They tip everybody out.
13:53So the difference between a good night and a bad night is a lot.
13:56It's how much you go home with.
13:58It's not necessarily did you have a great interaction with someone or a bad interaction.
14:02I mean, certainly there's a lot to deal with in that way.
14:05But, you know, they work in pairs and in teams.
14:08It's much more lucrative.
14:09Did you like them?
14:09Yeah, I did like them.
14:12And I heard so many different experiences.
14:15I think that's the beautiful part of it is that you can talk to so many different women who are having the time of their lives.
14:23This job provides incredible freedom.
14:25They work for a month.
14:25They go take their band on the road and other girls who, you know, escaped a bad relationship.
14:31And, you know, for some people it's transitional, you know, and for other people it's where they are.
14:37And so it was incredibly enlightening to speak to them.
14:40I love the class elements and your ability to capture so many of those things.
14:44Was that a matter of hanging out with them or had you had some interaction with people from that part of the boroughs in Long Island before?
14:54Yeah, I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, so I felt like I grew up with these guys, I grew up with these girls.
15:00I worked in a boiler room when I was like 18, just like doing secretarial work.
15:06But it was really just an off-off Wall Street, northern New Jersey, a room full of phones that guys are selling bad stocks to old people.
15:15And my mom worked there for a time.
15:17A guy said he was going to hit her in the head with a baseball bat.
15:20And the bosses said, bottom line, can you keep working with him because he's bringing in the money and you're just typing stuff into a computer.
15:27So, yeah, it was remarkable.
15:29But there was another guy who was on a headset for six months talking to nobody.
15:33He was losing his mind.
15:34Oh, wow.
15:35So it was really like...
15:36I want to see that.
15:38I can identify it.
15:39Exactly.
15:40What's the worst jobs you've all had to do along the way?
15:42Because most writers don't really make it till they're, you know, certainly in their 30s.
15:46Have you all done tough jobs before?
15:50So many jobs.
15:51What?
15:52I, in Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas, worked in the Pepsi plant, shoveling saccharine into the syrup formula.
16:00And even three weeks after I quit that job, I could pull a piece of hair.
16:04Luxury.
16:04Did you ever drink Pepsi?
16:05Yeah, so sugaring the Pepsi.
16:07I worked on the Night Sword at UPS, which is a job where you put the packages in the trucks in
16:13order so the drivers can do that from one to six in the morning.
16:17It's, you lose a little bit of weight because you're running for five hours.
16:20So, fantastic.
16:20Who else?
16:21I worked in a coal yard, bagging coal, 80 kilogram bags and then getting them into trucks and stuff.
16:28Dirty job.
16:28Sheesh.
16:29It was all right.
16:30Can't really beat that.
16:31How about you?
16:32I shot wedding videos. That's how I, that's how I paid the bills for a long time.
16:38That's a pretty clean car.
16:39Oh, I don't know. That sounds...
16:41It was actually one of...
16:42Did anybody ever fire you from a wedding?
16:44No, it was one of the most rewarding creative jobs I've ever had.
16:49I also worked at a group home for teenagers, which at the time I didn't realize was going to be
16:57the inspiration for my first feature, but I worked there as a counselor for two years.
17:05Was that difficult?
17:05It was extremely difficult, yeah. I didn't realize how sheltered I was as a child growing up in Hawaii
17:13until I took that gig. It was very eye-opening to kind of the ugliness in the world, but simultaneously,
17:26it also opened my eyes to the beauty of humans and their ability to find life and laughter in the
17:33darkest places.
17:34In what way did it open your eyes to the ugliness? What, what, what particularly?
17:39I mean, you, you look at every, you're on a floor with 20 kids and every single one of them
17:44are struggling because of the effects of some type of abuse or neglect from parents or lack of parents.
17:52And it was, um, yeah, it was, it was very, very eye-opening for, for dealing with that every single day.
18:02What about you, Casey?
18:03Uh, I would have to go with naked life modeling.
18:06That's that, that's my one.
18:08Winner.
18:16Two Popes. How much was fictionalized and how much do you feel you were justified if you did fictionalize it?
18:22So it's a really tough, uh, complex question because you get to the heart of, of how much
18:29license should you permit yourself when you're doing anything based on a real story.
18:33And I've taken various takes on this over the last few years. I've done cradle to grave stuff,
18:39which is very, very, very, um, faithful to historical fact. And in this case, it's probably the most
18:45adventurous use of artistic license that I've had. But I, I would still put my hand into that fire and
18:51say that I'm still, this is more than perhaps any of the others in the service of the truth.
18:57And that it's not necessarily literally true that they had these conversations. We don't know what
19:03they said to each other. I know they met three times. And, uh, they only met three times.
19:08They've only met three times. That's extraordinary for two Popes.
19:10Yeah. It's imaginatively speculating on what transpires between two people.
19:16We have known details, but in between those gaps, we have to infuse with our own. We surmise,
19:22we try and be as emotionally authentic as we can within the parameters of the people we're dealing
19:26with. Would you say grace, Holy Father? Yes. Yes.
19:36Thank you, Lord, for this food that we enjoy here in this place outside of time. See, Lord, your church,
19:44your flock, is under attack us in crisis. God grant us the wisdom and the strength to oppose the
19:51hypocrisy to this figure, sir. St. Francis, intercede for us as we seek to repair the church.
20:00Would you like to add something? Amen. Amen. It's good. At its heart, the two Popes is a story of a
20:08progressive and a conservative. And I hope it speaks to the broader conversation in society at the moment
20:13where we have these two camps. We're not quite sure which will ensure our futures better than the
20:17other. And there's so much anger passing back and forth that they're being polarized and driven
20:22further apart. The middle seems to have collapsed. To paraphrase Yates, the center is not held.
20:28And this project was about trying to get these two positions into dialogue with each other in a
20:34debate. And they're highly combative at the beginning, but they find peace with each other. And it's
20:39it's embedded in the truth. There's a lot of research that went into what the stated positions
20:44were. My area of confection, if you like, was that I put those two positions into dialogue with
20:50each other and built a dialectic around that. It's such an interesting phrase in the service of
20:55the truth. You know, when you're doing a historical representation, you know, something that is fiction
21:01and yet historical, you have to invent conversations. You know, these two people are friends. You know,
21:07like we know Harriet Tubman went to this place and met with these people. But I came to feel that I was
21:14in conversation with her. So the questions that I had to ask, I asked in writing the script and in doing
21:20the movie. When I had a question, I would ask it. And I believed that I had the answer.
21:24What do you mean you would ask it? I would ask her directly, Harriet, how do you feel about this?
21:29Are we cool? Or am I going too far? Or did this happen? How did it happen? And I would and I would
21:35wait until I felt that I was getting the answer. I have one question, which is, she's quoted
21:42as her last line being, I go to prepare a place for you. And I thought that that is one of the most
21:48beautiful, you know, I just wonder, you know, that was the one I didn't quite have the answer.
21:55Did you actually say that? Were those actually your last words? I go to prepare a place for you.
21:59I mean, my God woman, you know, that's beautiful. I put my attention on trying to hear God's voice
22:04more clearly. Do you know what would happen if you got caught? They would torture you until you pointed
22:08them right to this office. You got lucky, Harriet. Now there's nothing more you can do. Don't you tell me
22:15what I can't do. I made it this far on my own. God was watching, but my feet was my own. Running,
22:23bleeding, climbing, nearly drowned, nothing to eat for days and days, man. I made it.
22:30So don't you tell me what I can't do. I did seven months of pure research on Harriet and the
22:35Underground Railroad. But you know, in even the best scholarly books, you'll have something that'll
22:41say she made her way to Philadelphia. It's like, okay. That's awful. You know, so you have to,
22:49you have to build things out and build things in and to make it dramatic, of course, but also
22:56in the service of the truth, which is, I know she had this position. I know this person was her friend.
23:01You know, I know he worried about her. William's still, you know, because I can tell that from
23:06letters, but I don't know what their, what their conversations were. You've been knocked a bit
23:11for not casting an American, an African American woman in the lead, which is played by Cynthia Erivo,
23:17very beautifully. How do you feel about that? And did you think about it when you cast the part?
23:21She was on the movie before me. I didn't know that there would be, you know, conversation about it.
23:28About Cynthia, you just don't get any better. She was prepared in every way you could possibly be
23:34prepared to play this role. She was prepared physically, emotionally, spiritually to play
23:38Harriet Tubman. And she was, she was wonderful. I felt so excited about being an African American
23:45woman, being able to tell the story of Harriet Tubman, you know? So I felt that I was burying
23:50the culture in many ways. And two women producers, one of whom is African American, two writers,
23:56both African American, director, African American woman, African American costume designer,
24:02African American production designer, African American composer, African American hair and
24:07makeup. And I felt that we were bearing the culture of the Harriet Tubman story beautifully.
24:12Charles, you dealt with quite a few real life people in bombshell. Did you ever get to meet
24:18anything? Did you meet Roger Ailes? And if you didn't, what would you have wanted to ask him?
24:22Did not meet Roger. He died about when I was about halfway through. I did meet quite a few of the
24:28others, 12 of whom probably, or 13 of whom have NDAs, so we can't really talk about who they were.
24:33I guess I would say that in the case of Roger, I felt like the narrative that the women had told
24:40about him was pretty strong. And it had a fascinating consistency throughout it, particularly trying
24:46to arrive at his particular kinks. You know, his sexual pathology may be too strong a word, but certainly
24:52his sexual love map. We like sexual pathology. It was a strange one, right? Because generally speaking,
25:03the female characters were so much easier to write than the males because so many women had raised
25:08their hand and in great granular detail said, this is exactly what happened to me. This is how it
25:13happened. This is the power dynamic behind it. So I had all that I could borrow on.
25:17So Rush is an amenities team. They're the competition. They're GOP party hacks. So he thinks
25:23he's way ahead of them. So steal from Drudge and Breitbart, not talk radio. Okay.
25:27Also stop worrying if a story's legit. If you can't source it, just go with Summer's saying. Seriously.
25:35You have to adopt the mentality of an Irish street cop. The world is a bad place. People are lazy morons.
25:41Minorities are criminals. Sex is sick, but interesting. Ask yourself what would scare my grandmother
25:46or piss off my grandfather. It's obviously the guy who's the perpetrator doesn't raise his hand
25:50and say, yeah, I'm the perpetrator. So, you know, so those are the, those, those are much harder
25:55stories to tell. Um, but fortunately, you know, Roger had been a subject of a great deal of journalism,
26:00very good journalism, uh, and, and that, and, and had also a kind of quasi sanctioned autobiography
26:06that was, that was available. It was a, it was a subject matter. Well, there's a biography that didn't reveal,
26:11I think all the sexual stuff. Uh, you're talking Gabe Sherman's. Yeah, it was, he did a pretty good
26:17job though. It just didn't in terms of some of, some of the underlying Roger's desire to sexualize
26:24his power. What he didn't get to is the actual expressions of that, which obviously the women
26:29that I talked to. Can I ask you a question? It's, it's, it's a really interesting thing that I've
26:34been wrestling with and trying to make my way through. And I'd love to know what your guys' opinion
26:38about this is when you're writing a character whose views sort of roughly align with your own,
26:43it's, it's much more effortless to work on that character. Then you have to somehow write a
26:49character who's, who you have no empathy for. And yet the task, we kind of have to love our characters
26:54equally. And it's a bit like to have an even boxing match. They have to be in the same weight division.
27:01And the question is, how do you write empathetically for someone who you don't have,
27:06you know, any instinct for? I prefer it. And maybe it's a form of self hatred. I don't know. But,
27:12but I prefer to write people who I don't agree with because I can counter, I can turn the scene so
27:18many more times because I naturally have an instinct to counter their, their, their ideas. So I much
27:23prefer to write conservatives. And does it change you? Does it change your view of that person?
27:28I think, I think anytime you write a human being, it, it, it does some form of normalizing
27:34is too strong a word, but it does some form of giving you an empathetic relationship to their
27:39place in the world. And that is, that is so helpful, even for perpetrators of misdeeds.
27:44So when you wrote, um, Jojo Rabbit, what was the toughest part of the writing?
27:49I don't really remember what the toughest part of it was. It was one of the few times I've written
27:52a script where I don't really remember doing it. Usually I would start at the end and then maybe
27:58a bit at the beginning and sort of figure it out all that, um, that way. This one, I just sort of went
28:02from beginning all the way through in a linear fashion. But, um, I like writing characters that are
28:08desperate to be liked or desperate to be loved or desperate to be accepted or cool and who are
28:14just overcompensating so much that they become acerbic and really kind of horrible. And I like
28:20writing horrible people who, but who aren't necessarily villains or, you know, it's more that they are just
28:27trying so hard to, to have an opinion or trying so hard to be cool. I find them really, I find them
28:32really fun to write. What was the genesis of that idea? I think it's just from wanting to be liked.
28:37Or myself. About the boy and... Oh, the genesis of this film? Yes, yes, yes.
28:43It's inspired by a book that, um, that I read in 2010 called Caging Skies. And then the book is very
28:49much a sort of darker piece and it's about this boy and this girl. And so the bones of it, you know,
28:55of the film are within that, which is a boy who's in that youth discovers his mother is hiding a girl
29:01in their attic. And that's really sort of, that was what the only sort of real thing I took from that.
29:05I don't really know how to make a straight drama. I'm not sure I'm capable of that.
29:10I had to add in things that would make it more interesting to myself and sensibilities that are
29:15specific to how I tell stories, which is humor, fantastical elements, little heightened moments,
29:21and this imaginary character. And so none of that were in the book.
29:25Um, so I had to kind of make it more interesting.
29:28In the book, that's interesting.
29:30When you write, what's the toughest part of writing for you? What do you struggle with?
29:34Writing is an exercise in empathy. So for me, I, that's, that's always my approach. So I,
29:40I tend to prefer characters that I don't necessarily agree with. And I like making
29:45them convince me a little bit. Um, so, um, I don't know what I find the toughest part,
29:51probably just, uh, what act two, like the middle, um, I don't know.
29:56Do you start at the beginning and work forward?
29:57No, I, I jump around too. For Hustlers, I wrote the scene where the two of them meet first. I wrote
30:04the scene where, um, Jennifer Lopez's character wraps Constance Wu's character in a fur coat.
30:10But, um. That's a great scene.
30:11It's very much their relationship too.
30:13Yeah. I thought that, that immediate intimacy, especially because you've seen this character,
30:18she's grappling with loneliness and isolation and, and at this new place and doesn't have
30:22physical contact with any of these girls and has physical contact with men, obviously,
30:27and strangers. And, and I think that kind of intimacy that women have immediately was very
30:33exciting to me to, to, to show that, um, that mother-daughter relationship that, that sort of unfold.
30:39It's interesting to me that you're partners with another writer,
30:41Beau Burnham, who was on this round table last year.
30:44Yes.
30:44How have you influenced his work and how has he influenced yours?
30:48Oh, I don't know. We're pretty separate entities. Um, we do like to read each other's
30:52scripts and he shows me things he's working on. I show him things I'm working on, but I don't know.
30:58I mean, we just, it's, it's, it's nice obviously to have someone that you trust that you can
31:03Did he give you any big note about the script?
31:06No, no. I, I showed him a cut and I, I would say he gave more notes on, on like earlier cuts
31:12than, than on the script itself. And, um,
31:14Do you remember one of those notes?
31:15Oh gosh. There was, there was more voiceover in the beginning and it was, it was really, um,
31:23people were, there's, there's an interview, um, that is part of the, the framing of the story,
31:28but you don't arrive at it right away. So I had this voiceover that led us there and people were
31:35seeing it as two different devices. They were seeing the voiceover and this interview. And I was
31:40like, but the voiceover is the interview. So, um, kind of just, yeah, paired it down in the beginning
31:46and, and got to the essentials.
31:47Where did you begin with Just Mercy? And you had a very well known lawyer, uh, in that film.
31:53What was the most difficult part of writing that script?
31:55I, I, I wrote the script, uh, we adapted it from, uh, from the book Just Mercy and I wrote it with Andrew
32:02Lanham and we definitely stepped into it with a big weight on our shoulders.
32:09A lot of self doubt as to whether we are the right people to, to tell this story.
32:13What we had that was unusual was a partnership with Bryan Stevenson from day one. I mean, having a,
32:21my first conversation with Bryan and hearing how he connected with the work that I had done
32:27and what he thought I could bring to this story was the thing that made me feel like I could do it.
32:33And you can buddy up with these white folks and make them laugh and try to make them like you,
32:37whatever that is. And you say, yes sir, no ma'am, but when it's your turn, they ain't got to have no
32:41fingerprints, no evidence. And the only witness they got made the whole thing up.
32:53And none of that matter when all y'all think is, is I look like a man
32:57who could kill somebody? But that's not what I think.
33:03He's incredibly gracious and not overbearing at all, but he was a resource from day one all the way
33:12through the process. Um, and those, you know, I actually find that if you don't take liberties and
33:20adapting something you, you, you honestly are going to be further from the truth because you're going
33:26to have just a sloppy, you just can't fit something into two hours unless you're, you're piecing it
33:32together. We had Bryan Stevenson, who's an incredible storyteller. I mean, he is a lawyer and, but his gift
33:40is storytelling and his gift is empathy. He does it in the courtroom and that's all he does for his clients
33:47is he tries to, to allow a jury or a judge to understand a person in all of their layers. He
33:55starts with the stereotype or he starts with the crime or the criminal, and then he starts pulling
34:01off the layers. So you understand the full person. And by the end of that understanding, you just,
34:06it's so much more difficult to judge. And that's what he was able to do with us throughout, throughout
34:11the process. And he, he really helped us fill in those blanks.
34:15What liberties with the truth did you take in the script?
34:18Um, we, we fortunately did not have to take many liberties. Um, it, because Brian was really
34:25helpful in, in helping us fill in the gaps. The, the liberties that we did take were just time. We
34:32didn't really create any scenes. Um, we created the dialogue in the scenes, but we didn't, didn't have
34:38to make up any events, but we did, you know, shift, shift things around to happen in the flow of what
34:46we wanted the script to be.
34:47But even documentaries.
34:48That's what I was going to say.
34:49Yeah. It's a story.
34:50Yeah. And it's the, I think the varying levels of, of how respectful you need to be to the truth
34:57or to the actual events. Cinema is so different and telling stories is, and you know, and even
35:02comes down to just keeping them engaged, keeping people like actually interested in these people,
35:07because the actual events are, you sometimes take course over, you know, six to seven years.
35:12Time compression's a gimme. You're going to have to do time compression. That's it. It's just,
35:17there's no. You also created a character though.
35:19I did. Yeah. Yeah. Because there were obviously the, the one woman you never hear from in those
35:23scenarios is the woman who has a quid pro quo sexual relationship with a boss. And you know,
35:27it would be cruel to out someone in that way, but also it's just, that's, that's a hard narrative to
35:31access. And, and so, so it felt important that that person not only be a composite fixed slash fictional,
35:38but we say that, you know, clearly.
35:40You're talking about the Margot Robbie. I am a character. So in fact,
35:43was there anybody who came out and said, yes, I did have a sexual relationship with him under
35:47pressure? Yes. Oh, interesting. But you didn't go with that character. No. Why?
35:52The most famous relationship happened prior to the framework of the film. It was also a relationship
35:57that began prior to the starting of Fox and a relationship that carried into Fox and its status
36:05as a, as a relationship that qualifies under the legal term, sexual harassment was problematic
36:11because it was pre-existent. And so I really wanted to very clear stories that, that illustrated
36:18the dynamic without getting into the things that were, you know, um, I want emotionally complicated
36:24scenarios, but not ones that were sort of legally mired. Yeah.
36:27Yeah. Did you find anything to like about Roger Ailes?
36:30Yeah. Yeah. He was, Roger's not Harvey. Roger was a man who was genuinely beloved by a lot of
36:35people, you know, um, very much so. And even by lefties. And so he was someone whose capacity
36:42for seduction was pretty profound.
36:43By the way, you could say the same about Harvey. I mean, he's the man who, when he wants to,
36:48Right. Could be incredibly charming.
36:50I never had a good experience.
36:51When he wasn't threatening your life, you know, and I've had him,
36:53Yeah. Had both. Yeah. Interesting.
36:56You never had a good experience with him.
36:57No. I mean, I had many at all, but, but, but, um, yeah, I don't know, I don't know a lot of people
37:02who have real love for Harvey. Even 10 years ago, I didn't know a lot of people. I know people who, who said,
37:07oh, he leaves me alone. I get to make my movies. I'm happy about that because he doesn't normally do that for most
37:11directors. I've had that conversation, but I've never had, but, but, but Roger was capable of a
37:15kind of register of paternalism that really appealed to a lot of people. And, and, um, so, uh, and he was
37:22good at what he did, you know, uh, perhaps to, you know, to the chagrin of those, those on the left,
37:27but, um, he was good at that.
37:28Actor, you always refused to work for Harvey Weinstein. Uh, was it easy to say no? How much
37:34do you have the liberty to say no to projects, especially when you're starting?
37:37It was a kind of, I don't know what it is. It's some sort of
37:42compass that just said, no danger, Will Robinson, you know, go over here. And it was just, it was
37:48just myself, self defense mechanism kicked in. And I just thought, I don't want to become a victim of
37:55what I know, um, he's done with other people. You know, when you hear that someone who's done one
38:00film with him, then, then insists on a clause in the contract, a non screaming contract, that if Harvey
38:07screams at you, um, you get this amount of reimbursement. And I thought, no, I don't,
38:16life is way too short. You had a Harvey screaming clause and stuff. And I thought life is way too
38:22short. And, you know, I want to work with people I, you know, want to have a beer with.
38:26Is the business an easier place to work today or not?
38:30I think it is. I haven't worked with a screamer in a long time, you know, but I mean,
38:36I know they're out there. Well, yeah, when I was an actor, I worked with, um, somebody who was,
38:42um, I mean, I, I had a lot of love for him, but he was, um, you know, just cranky and, and, you know,
38:49I remember after takes saying, um, and he yelled at so many people after takes saying, you know, was
38:55that okay? And he said, yeah, it was good. It was fine. I would have yelled at you if it wasn't,
38:58you know, that kind of guy, you know, but, um, I, it certainly wasn't part of the, of my approach, um,
39:05because I did get to where as an actor work with directors that I, uh, you know, I could admire.
39:11And so I knew what I, what I liked. And so that's what I tried to bring in, but I don't know, is it
39:15a gentler business? I feel like it's, um, I like to think that it's easier now because I think now,
39:22especially with, you know, the web and it's so much easier for people just to, to say things,
39:28you know, just to speak out where, you know, before Twitter and before people, you know,
39:34before it was okay to kind of come out and say, this guy just did this to me. I mean,
39:38or this person, this person just like screamed at me. It was just, um, you know, it was just like
39:43secondhand news. You'd just hear it through conversation, you know, at a bar and say,
39:47oh, I heard this thing about this guy, you know, but there's no way to kind of get those stories out there.
39:51And I think now people, you know, I, I don't, I've never thankfully worked with any actors or anyone
39:56who, you know, who've brought so much ego to set or, you know, brought this attitude to set,
40:01which was pretty common. I feel in like the eighties and the nineties, based on what I've heard
40:05and read, because I feel like it's no place for it anymore. And people, they won't stand for it.
40:10You know, on the business side, you know, and maybe the companies I work with, there are women in the room
40:14now, you know, and there weren't, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago. Right. And that, that, that has changed the
40:21underlying. Has the Me Too movement noticeably changed things? Do you think?
40:25I think so. Yeah. I mean, people aren't as blatant about it anymore. I mean, I was going to say,
40:32I wonder if it's changed for us sitting at this table, because I mean, recently I was not sitting
40:38at tables and, and it's not easy when you're not in a position of power. So I don't know anymore.
40:44I think once you're in a position of power, you might be facing different people who are treating you
40:49differently and talking to you differently. Since hospitals, have you noticed that people
40:52treat you differently? Yes. Yes. Yeah. My agent came over the other day.
40:58She'd never been over before. So yeah. Yeah. It changes immediately.
41:10What do you guys think about the current war between the Writers Guild and, and the agencies?
41:16Well, we all wanted to, to be resolved as quickly as possible. I, I love my agents. They do a great
41:22job for me. When I heard about this conflict, it was, I was blindsided by it. I was very happy
41:29with the state of things. And then I found about these issues that were profoundly affecting our
41:33colleagues. So I stand with the writer's guilt. You do? Charles? I do, but I want a quick resolution.
41:39Yeah. I stand with the guilt too. I mean, I, I haven't ever made a TV show, so it's, it's a little bit
41:43different, I think for us than it would be for people who come out of television. Do you all stand
41:48with the writer's guilt or does anybody not? No, I do. I want a quick resolution too. It's too like,
41:53I'm too stressed out to have to like, think about stuff like this. I've got too many things happening.
41:57Are you stressed? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can't see my legs, but what they're doing right now.
42:02Yeah. Yeah. I'm stressed out. I mean, is success stressful? It depends what success. I mean,
42:08having people see your films, that's my sort of. That's stressful. That's stressful. But also
42:13finishing a film and getting it out there, it's actually like, that's a relief. Like,
42:17it's one less thing they have to worry about anymore. So it's just, for me, it's just about
42:21meeting like whatever deadlines I have and just handing things and finishing something and then
42:25getting it out of my life as fast as possible is, that's, that's the stress relief. And having to go to
42:30round tables and talk about it. I mean, these are the worst.
42:33Destin, you seem very calm. What most stresses you about working in film?
42:39The calmer I seem, the more stressed I am. I mean, I find, I actually get very anxious anytime
42:45I'm leading up to a project. It feels like I'm going to die. And I tell my wife, don't ever let
42:52me do this again. I actually asked her how many times I've said that. And she said before,
42:56every movie that you've ever directed, I say that. And I'm so serious about it. But it is
43:01like how my wife describes childbirth. As soon as it's over and I'm, I've gone through the process
43:07with, with such an amazing team and have built this family. It, it's the memory of it becomes so
43:16beautiful that I'm like, yeah, let's do this again. Yeah. What about writing? Is, is that
43:21therapeutic or is that stressful? For me, I find it so psychologically
43:27damaging and challenging. Why? Because I have so much room for self-doubt. When I'm on set and
43:36directing, it's just, there's, there's so many people making it together and you have to move so
43:43fast that you don't have time for self-doubt. You're just like, boom, boom, boom. Oh, that's working.
43:47That's not working. And writing, I can write a scene and be like, oh, that's, that sucks. And then
43:53go again. And then it's so easy to, to get in my head. What about the rest of you? Is writing stressful?
43:59Is it? I find it enjoyable and, or maybe it's more that it's just second nature to me by now. I've been
44:05doing it since I was a kid. I was writing scripts when I was in like fourth grade. I should say scripts
44:10and quotes because they were not that, but attempts at screenplays and like fourth grade. So for me,
44:15it's just an all day, everyday thing. It's lonely. It's definitely lonely. And I, I, now that I
44:25love being on set, I never knew what it meant when singers would say like, I feel so at home on stage.
44:31I was like, no, you don't. But, but it's really now it's a way to get back on set because I think
44:38that's the, for me anyway, the pure joy. What about you? Do you like writing?
44:41Yeah. I mean, I think I've, I've always found it lonely, but then my favorite thing is actually
44:46after people have gone to bed, I don't have to talk to anyone. That's what my favorite time is to
44:50sit there and like, come up with ideas. The thing really is like, the thing I find the hardest now,
44:57just having so many things that I've, and it's my own fault because I said yes to them, but it's
45:03just starting with that blank page and just saying, oh my God, I've got 120 of these to fill up.
45:11And it's really, yeah. I mean, when I'm, when I've got a flow going on, it's, it's amazing.
45:17Yeah. And I just won't stop. And it's more just, and I, I don't tend to sort of, I try not to sit
45:24in front of a computer. I try not to like just sit there and stare and I try as much as I can to
45:30kind of get all the beats as much, you know, figure out a sort of loose shape of the story
45:34before I start typing. Name one writer you all admire or individually. I don't have,
45:40it doesn't have to be a screenwriter. So nobody around this table, but is there one
45:43writer who's really influenced you? I, I'm, I think I would have to say, um,
45:48um, the late, great Toni Morrison, just because it, she had such a profound effect on my kind
45:54of worldview in terms of literature and African-American literature and then the,
45:59and the way that I, um, that I approached character.
46:02Anthony?
46:03Anthony? I, I wasn't a writer until I sat in on a, on a English literature course at my
46:09second year of university by accident. I was keen on a girl and I followed her into this room,
46:14sat beside her and asked if I could have what, have a look at her text since she was the mother
46:19of my first child. And, and we, the book that she was studying was the Norton Anthology of American
46:25Literature post-1945. And I took a copy of this home and started reading it. And it was a real
46:31epiphany for me because it said to someone, a working class kid from Taranaki, New Zealand,
46:37that you didn't have to be a professor to be a writer. You could write about the domestic,
46:42you could write about the banal, but, but you had to do it with passion and you had to provide
46:47some insight and the accessibility of post-war American literature changed my view of what I
46:54was felt I was capable of doing.
46:58Yeah. For me, it's been different. There were phases of different writers, you know,
47:02uh, I've often an association with a, with a project will fall in love with them.
47:07But name one writer.
47:08Like David Foster Wallace had an influence on Big Short. Currently, you know, I rely a lot,
47:13a lot on Anthony Appiah's work just because of his, his worldview is so delightful, I think,
47:18for this chaotic time.
47:20Justin.
47:20Bradbury was probably where, um, I've, I honestly struggled with writing growing, growing up.
47:28I've never considered myself, uh, smart enough to, to write. Bradbury is an intellect like,
47:34like no other, but there's something really accessible, uh, about, about his characters.
47:39And to me, my journey as, as an artist has been just trying to find, find a place in myself to be
47:48myself through, through what I'm creating and not try to be, uh, something other than that. And
47:54my strength, I, I find is that I try to be as vulnerable as I can through the writing that I do
48:01and not try to be smarter than I am because I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not that smart. Um, but I, I,
48:10that's, that's, that's where I gravitate towards.
48:13So, Laureen, what about you?
48:15Laureen, I grew up, like, loving plays. So, I loved Sam Shepard growing up and then, uh, I loved Anthony
48:22Burgess at different times. I loved, uh, Tom Robbins is probably who I, I think of as, like,
48:29my high school, like, the writer I was, yeah, yeah, exactly.
48:33Hiker?
48:34Uh, there are two that I usually go back to, uh, William Faulkner, but when I first was introduced to him,
48:40I'd never been to the South. I'd never, like, you know, I had no real idea of that world other
48:44than seeing stuff in, in films and then just fell into, like, the way that he wrote and especially
48:49with character, um, and, and, and, and dialogue, which, which is something that I, just, yeah,
48:57resonated with me and I, I've always loved him. And then, um, and I, I mean, I, I love short stories
49:02more than novels. I love them because I just, I get quicker, but also, um, I just feel like they're
49:08often more poetic for me and, um, and, you know, sort of Hemingway's shorts, but, um, I'd say Oscar Wilde's
49:15probably the, my, the guy I'm always going back to. Well, because his wit, he's got, he's got such a,
49:20well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you wouldn't expect that, but, um,
49:22I'm trying to see the influence and, you don't need to, it's probably Oscar Wilde's probably got
49:27weird, the, the, um, the humor and the wit and the, um, and, you know, I just love, he's just so, like, you know,
49:33and especially with his, his, his short pieces, he's just, um, he's cheeky.
49:39We talked about change in the industry. If you could change one thing in the industry, what would
49:45it be? Oh, I mean, I mean, wow. Uh, you know, I would have to kind of be this question of inclusiveness
49:53and parody. I mean, it's just, it, it's so, um, it's so overdue and, and other places are doing much
50:00better at it than we are friends, for instance, you know, film has to kind of be a time capsule,
50:05you know, for, for who we are now and what we're interested in and what we're thinking about and
50:09what we're dreaming about. And, and, and I, it's, it doesn't feel that way yet. I mean,
50:13it's beginning to feel that way. And so that's exciting. But, um, I think it's a real tragedy,
50:20you know, that, uh, for so many years, just most of this, a predominance of, of white men.
50:26I mean, I love those, you know, a lot of the movies and a lot of the voices are so important,
50:31but it's just, it's so out of step with reality. I mean, to, to back that up when our, our movie,
50:37uh, was, was the first movie that Warner Brothers, uh, officially did the inclusion writer for. And
50:45I was able to see as a director firsthand, I mean, the same way that the Me Too movement has empowered
50:51people to just kind of start doing what they really believe anyway. Um, and it allowed us to
50:57hire department heads who were African-American female have been doing amazing work for like 30
51:05years and have never been a department head before. And we're giving them their first time being that,
51:11that, that to me is the, the power of that. And I hope that it, it happens more.
51:18Do you agree or would you change something else?
51:20Oh, I mean, I feel like that's most important. I mean, I think that's the biggest step, but,
51:25um, uh, the, the kinds of movies that get made, I mean, I think the financiers are very specific
51:31people. I would love to see more diversity in the financier department. I mean, it, it changed in 2008,
51:39really the financial crisis, at least in my opinion, had such a large effect on even the kinds of
51:46movies that were getting made. Cynicism took over around that time. And so, so in a way,
51:51I almost think these superhero films are a response to that cynicism, but, um, money talks. I mean,
51:56it is, and you have audiences turning out. People obviously want to see what they want to see.
52:01I think we're going to miss Anna Perna, for example, you know, your movie, Booksmart. I mean,
52:06you know, um, they developed some remarkable films. I know. It's kind of interesting how
52:11Megan Allison has been attacked in the business when actually she, she's putting her own money
52:16in something that was, it was wonderful. You know, I wonder if it's the kind of sexism at play there,
52:22or, or. Yes. Yes, certainly. Okay. I mean, you know, she's also young. She's also, you know,
52:30coming from money, but I think if she was a man, I don't know that that would have been the same
52:34reaction to beauty. I mean, last question. This one, I've been dying to ask you. You're on a desert
52:40island. You've written about Stephen Hawking. You've written about, um, Churchill. And you've
52:48written about the two popes. Which one of all your characters would you most like to be on an island
52:53with? Freddie Mercury. Way more fun. Way more fun than anyone else. He'd, he'd shown me something about
53:03living passionately. I mean, that guy burned. And for a quiet rider, that's, that's probably the
53:08best life lesson for me. Charles. Yeah. Steve Iceman from The Big Short would be probably a
53:13pretty fun, you know, he would, he would certainly not stop talking. I mean, I was going, I was going
53:19to say Bryan Stevenson, not, not because he is a lawyer, but he actually happens to be an incredible
53:25jazz musician with an incredible voice. And he, he actually said that if you, if I asked him if he
53:34wasn't doing this work, what would he be doing? And his sister, his whole family is really musical. And
53:39he said he'd probably be in a jazz band. So. And he's a good storyteller. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be very
53:46entertaining. I mean, I would definitely pick Harriet, but you know, besides being, um, possibly
53:51practically handy on a desert island, you know, um, and just an awesome person, she was a great
53:56storyteller. So she, you know, she told her own stories, did these one woman shows and told her
54:00own stories and a singer, you know, on the music.
54:03Taika. Not his obvious name. No. Uh, I don't know. Thor.
54:09Because he's a really fun guy.
54:11I mean, my last movie was about my mother. Um, and no offense to her, but I don't know.
54:19And that would be healthy. So much for taking part in close up with the Hollywood Reporter
54:25at Writus. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Be the first to comment