- 11 hours ago
De Niro and Pfeiffer joined their cast and the creators of the HBO film.
Category
🎥
Short filmTranscript
00:00Good evening. How did you like the movie?
00:16Okay, I'm Marisa Guthrie, your moderator, and seated to my left is Diana B. Enriquez,
00:23the author of Wizard of Lies, who had a fabulous cameo in the movie. Barry
00:31Levinson, director and executive producer. Jane Rosenthal, executive producer.
00:43Robert De Niro, star and executive producer.
00:50Michelle Pfeiffer, who plays Ruth Madoff.
00:58Alessandro Navola, who plays Mark Madoff.
01:04And last, but certainly not least, Hank Azaria.
01:19So, for the actors, this was obviously an enormous global story. How much of the media coverage
01:27did you yourselves watch as it was unfolding?
01:34Whoever wants to start. Bob, do you want to start?
01:38Well, I mean, when it happened, I was aware of it.
01:42You could not not be aware of it. There was so much coverage on it all the time.
01:49Certain specifics, I wasn't aware of it. You know, 65 billion was a number that always popped up.
02:02So, in that sense, I was aware of it. I wasn't following it that closely.
02:08And did anybody else have impressions of it?
02:11I mean, it was obviously a huge news story, but I didn't really follow it on a daily basis.
02:17I think, certainly, my friends in the finance business followed it closely.
02:22And I think, perhaps, people in New York were more obsessive.
02:27I'm from the West Coast. So, but I was certainly aware of it.
02:32Did, for Michelle and Alessandro, did your opinions or thoughts about your characters change?
02:40Did you have impressions that you went into this with and that they changed as you were playing these parts and learning more about them?
02:52Well, I didn't really know anything about the children at all.
02:57You know, my only memory of it was those shots of Bernie in that baseball cap, which Bob recreated faithfully.
03:06As far as, I didn't know about the suicide at all.
03:10In fact, I'd even forgotten about it until the first week of filming when I was on the set and suddenly realized I had to find a way into that.
03:18So, no, I didn't come burdened with any kind of preconception about them at all in terms of their innocence or guilt.
03:27And I honestly wasn't that interested in that.
03:30I'm not really interested in that kind of thing very often as an actor taking on a character in general.
03:39Hank, your character was probably the least known in the saga, the most sort of enigmatic.
03:47Did that give you a certain freedom in your portrayal?
03:50Because he wasn't somebody that was so well known in the audience's minds?
03:55I didn't think of it that way.
03:58He was obviously a real guy.
04:01And because Dan and the FBI guys who knew him really well had such a very specific memory of him and gave me such specific parameters for the guy that, no, I didn't, there wasn't too much interpretation on my part.
04:20I really, they kind of gave me permission to take it where it was and assured me that's how he was.
04:26What did they, what did your research, what did they tell you about him, the FBI guys?
04:31That he was a likable guy, that he was a charismatic guy, that he was a funny guy, that he was an intense misogynist.
04:39Wait, Michelle Pfeiffer made me say that.
04:42I think that was apparent in the material that had the man's attitude towards women, which I think that was written.
04:51I think, I think, right, Mary, you and Sam came up with that monologue about the cars.
04:56I don't know if that was verbatim.
04:57I think you improv that whole thing.
04:59I did not improvise.
05:00I don't remember that in the script at all.
05:04That was written in the, that was in the original script.
05:08Yes, but it wasn't, that wasn't, if I improvised it, it would have been a lot worse, I promise you.
05:13But, no, I mean, that wasn't like verbatim what you...
05:19No, no, no, no.
05:20But he was very much, Diana, you can, you can talk to that character.
05:26Because I think it's very close to everything that you said and to the people you spoke to at the FBI.
05:32Very close in.
05:33I mean, I spoke with not only people at the FBI who handled Frank DiPiscali through his long months as a state witness.
05:44He was the key government witness against a number of Madoff employees who went to trial in New York.
05:50And I attended the trial, watched DiPiscali testify, followed him around.
05:55One of the FBI agents who was his handler told me last night that you absolutely nailed it.
06:02That you absolutely nailed it.
06:07Unbidden by me, he volunteered that.
06:10So there was a real Frank DiPiscali, and yes, Michelle, he did frequently express the kinds of vulgarities
06:19that I regret I couldn't actually put in the book.
06:22I mean, they could put them in the script.
06:24But that was an authentic Frank DiPiscali.
06:30And Michelle, you met with Ruth Madoff.
06:32So can you tell us what that was like?
06:34What was your first impression of her?
06:40She...
06:42First of all, I was very grateful and surprised that she was willing to meet me.
06:48I don't think this whole process has been an easy one for her.
06:51And she was understandably guarded, but incredibly gracious and generous with her time.
07:01And I think probably even more curious about me, I think she sort of maybe agreed to meet with me because as she said to me,
07:11I shared with her that I was reluctant to reach out to her, that I just wasn't sure that I wanted to really intrude and do any more prying.
07:24You know, that she certainly didn't need any more of that.
07:26And her response to me was, well, I would think it was very strange if you didn't want to meet me and you were playing me.
07:32I was like, oh, yeah, you're right.
07:37So she's really funny, you know, and that's what everyone says about her.
07:44Because I had talked to a lot of people and, you know, everything that was written and there were a couple of things that kept coming up.
07:53One was she's really, really funny and that she's very fun loving and that she was very childish.
07:59So she's still got that thing.
08:02And the accent, was that hard to do to not make it too over the top?
08:10This would be a tough room with that accent.
08:13It was hard.
08:15It was really one of the harder ones because, first of all, it's not consistent and Queens is...
08:26Careful.
08:27No, it's just challenging because some of the sounds are hard.
08:33They're just hard.
08:35And if you're not careful, the accent in and of itself can become caricature.
08:42And, in fact, after I met her, I don't want to take up too much time, but we'd been shooting already.
08:47And I'd been working on the accent.
08:48I'd been working with Dialect Coach and trying to find that sort of right balance.
08:52And I came back and I said, Barry, Barry, I don't think I'm not worried at all about going too heavy on this accent anymore after meeting Ruth.
09:02And he said, no, no, no, no, it's fine.
09:05What you're doing is fine.
09:07Bob, did you want to meet with Madoff?
09:12Did you have a...
09:15Of course, I'd always want to meet the person who I'm playing, but I felt in this case I was a little wary.
09:24Jane and I spoke about it, and I had heard that people had had trouble, and even Diana had trouble, a lot of restrictions interviewing him and so on.
09:34And someone else I knew wanted to interview him on television.
09:37That was a problem, though he met him and spoke to him a couple of times.
09:40And I was a little wary about just sort of that would be a mixed message of that I was endorsing him, so that they'd make some who knows what.
09:53So I just said, it's okay.
09:55And I met a lot of other people around him, in-laws, relatives, his lawyer.
10:01Diane and I had good talks about it, and she was very helpful.
10:07I said, you know, I'm playing the part, what do you feel, vis-a-vis him, me, and blah, blah, and stuff.
10:16And I watched what small video stuff there was on him, so I was okay.
10:24Did you meet with some of his victims?
10:26Hmm?
10:27Did you meet with some of the victims?
10:28That's a good question.
10:29No, I didn't.
10:30So you got to...
10:34Well, I have some friends who were victims.
10:36Right.
10:37Indirectly, but...
10:38Yeah.
10:39So you did indirectly meet with some.
10:42Yeah.
10:43Did those friendships, did they impart anything to you that helped you understand?
10:48I mean...
10:49The magnitude of what had gone on and happened to all these people.
10:54Oh, I mean, it's...
10:56Whoever was burnt by him, it was a...
10:59Especially a lot of people who...
11:02That was it.
11:03That was all that they had.
11:04So it was beyond horrible.
11:07And you got...
11:09You...
11:10Bernie Madoff was a source of yours for years and years, right?
11:14Yes.
11:15I sometimes say that I knew Bernie in the wild before he was in captivity.
11:19Um...
11:20He was a sometimes source, not a major source, but he was...
11:24You know, there were aspects of the Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde story here in that there was a real Bernie Madoff, Wall Street statesman.
11:35He had a highly respected firm.
11:37He was always on the cutting edge of technology.
11:40Um...
11:41He became a...
11:42His firm became a source, in fact, because they were the first to pioneer after-hours trading for stocks.
11:47So if news broke after the New York Stock Exchange was closed, and I, as a financial reporter, needed to know what oil stocks were doing, who are you going to call?
11:55You're going to call Bernie Madoff.
11:57So I did know him in that context and in writing a few stories about him in the 90s and the early 2000s.
12:04Um...
12:05But then he had, as he got older, really kind of moved off center stage.
12:09And it was just my fortunate luck that the day he was arrested, and I saw the headline that he was arrested, I knew who he was.
12:16And not a lot of people in the newsroom at that point did.
12:21Um...
12:22So I...
12:23I sometimes wonder if that's why he agreed to talk with me, uh, as opposed to other, I mean, dozens of other reporters who wanted to talk to him.
12:33Because I...
12:34I didn't just know him as Bernie Madoff the crook.
12:37I...
12:38I had known him as the Bernie Madoff he was proud of being.
12:41Mm-hmm.
12:42And I...
12:43I wonder if that didn't make him think that, uh, that somehow I would be either more sympathetic or more understanding, uh, towards what he had done.
12:54Did you like him?
12:55Did you...
12:56No, I think if...
13:00No, I would actually say it was more that I was, uh, I was kind of indifferent to him.
13:07If I had met him at a party and had chatted with this nice old gentleman over in the corner drinking Diet Coke, I'm not sure I would have remembered him the next day.
13:15He was, uh, you know, very, uh, normal, very laid back, very, uh, very low key.
13:22But he did have, uh, a remarkable talent for inspiring trust.
13:26I think that comes through in the movie and it's one of the most brilliant pieces of genius that Bob does with that character.
13:33Is to show how, um, uh, how Bernie made people feel safe.
13:39How he made them, uh, trust him.
13:42Um, you know, I even trusted him and I already knew he was a fraud and a liar.
13:46I mean, you know, I, I trusted him to keep certain commitments he'd made to me in the course of writing this book.
13:52So, it's, it is a gift.
13:54And, of course, it's the necessary, non-negotiable gift to be a Ponzi schemer.
13:59You have to be able to inspire trust and he could.
14:03So, you were acting opposite Robert De Niro.
14:06What was that like?
14:07Well, I think I'll just retire now having started my acting career right at the top.
14:12It, you know, I got a sense of what this was going to be like at the screen testing.
14:19Yes, I did actually have to audition to play myself.
14:22Um, Bob shows up for that.
14:28And he's, shall we say, casually dressed.
14:31Um, a little unshaven.
14:32And wearing his baseball cap, yes.
14:34And we're sitting knee to knee on a couple of plastic chairs in a casting office at HBO.
14:40Um, and we, we had prepared the, the scene.
14:45And it was one of the early interview, um, interview scenes on the, uh, in the picture.
14:51And, uh, I asked a question and, and Bob's checking the script a little bit and he answers.
14:58And it couldn't have been more than 90, no, 40 seconds into that scene when his face changed.
15:06I mean, it really did.
15:08I mean, he did something with his face that made him Bernie Madoff.
15:14And it was surreal.
15:16It was creepy.
15:17It really was.
15:18All of a sudden, here, here is, and I don't know exactly what it was.
15:22Something around the mouth or the eye.
15:24So, there I am, you know, kind of interviewing this, this ghost Bernie Madoff.
15:30Um, it, it was sort of like that on set.
15:34I mean, um, Bob was so, he just so completely occupied the character that, um, what was it
15:43like to interview Robert De Niro in my debut on, on screen?
15:48I mean, it was like interviewing Bernie Madoff in prison, which I had done.
15:53I knew I could do that.
15:54Um, I, you know, I asked questions for a living, so I figured I could get through that
15:59part of it.
16:00Um, Bob was remarkably generous in the whole process and I'm so grateful for that.
16:05So, Jane, can you talk about what, um, why this book to option?
16:17Um, among the, all of the Bernie Madoff books that, and the other material that's out there
16:24that was available?
16:26Because Diana had interviewed Bernie and she knew him.
16:32Um, everything else was reportage.
16:35We had talked about doing this story for a while, clearly as New Yorkers and following
16:40this story and knowing so many people who had been affected by it.
16:43We looked at doing it as a fictional version.
16:46We looked at doing it from the story of the Ponzi scheme.
16:50And then, uh, Diana's book came along and, um, again, because she knew him personally, it
16:58was a way into the story was the personal aspect.
17:03And HBO, can you, there was also a, uh, broadcast movie on that was much different with Richard
17:08Dreyfuss and Blythe Danner.
17:11Can you go darker on HBO?
17:13Can you, do you have more creative freedom than you would if you're telling a story either
17:19in a, in a theatrical release or a broadcast network?
17:23Certainly, you'd go much darker than you can on, uh, broadcast.
17:29And I think, uh, the movie speaks for itself.
17:32And this is the movie that we would want to make no matter what platform we, we made it.
17:39This is the movie we, this is the story we wanted to tell.
17:43And Barry, the, um, the, the dream sequence scene, which kind of, to me evoked like a Christmas
17:49Carol and Roy Cohn in Angels in America.
17:52Um, what were you going for with that interlude?
17:57Well, I mean, the, the, you have to start with the fact that the two of them decided
18:03to take Ambient, you know, to kill themselves, uh, which you can't kill yourself on Ambient.
18:10Uh, but you do hallucinate.
18:13So then you say, well, if you, if you, if you were hallucinating, what would you be hallucinating
18:17about and how much of the anxiety that you're filled with and all of those things that are
18:23going on in your life might spill out in those, in a hallucination.
18:27So, uh, you know, Sam and I, we were talking about that and then we began to construct that sequence
18:34with all of that, all of those things that are bubbling up, things that he will never talk
18:39or share with anyone.
18:40So that, that's how that sequence evolved.
18:43And you, this is told in a non, uh, nonlinear, it's a biopic, but it's not told in a linear
18:51way.
18:52Could you do that?
18:53Did you have the freedom to do that?
18:54Because there was so much that the audience is going to know about his crimes.
19:00Well, they're going to know, I mean, you can't, um, yes.
19:03I mean, you're starting with, he's basically going to tell, you know, that it's a Ponzi scheme
19:08and then you're moving backwards and forwards in time because we know it's one of the interesting
19:16things.
19:17We know the story, but we don't know the story.
19:19It would be like if you did, you know, all the president's men, we know the story, you
19:23know, Woodward and Bernstein ultimately, you know, brought down Nixon in terms of, we know
19:28that we know Apollo 13.
19:30So the question is how do we basically, uh, inform the audience of things that they wouldn't
19:36know?
19:37And I think that's why it's designed is that way.
19:39Then we get inside of the family dynamics that most people don't know about.
19:43We don't know about Mark's relationship with his father and Andy's relationship, uh, et
19:48cetera, and Ruth's relationship and, and how that evolved and what was it about and how
19:54did that family dynamic work because no one really knows that story.
19:59And so in its construction is, uh, to understand that aspect, the tragedy of the family and
20:06then the tragedy of thousands and thousands of the victims.
20:10So I don't think we were bound by having to go from A to Z that we're able to move in
20:15and out as long as we can, the audience can follow, uh, the emotional direction of the piece.
20:22And what were the discussions with Ruth like?
20:25Because aren't there legal considerations when you're depicting somebody who's living and
20:30not spending, you know, not been sentenced to jail for 150 years?
20:36Well, none of the proceeds, um, for the book, uh, went to, uh, went to the Madoff's and,
20:45um, clearly it was, uh, this story's in the public domain.
20:50It was about getting, uh, the information that Diana had and other members of the family
20:57had, uh, to tell this intimate family story.
21:02Did you have conversations with Ruth?
21:04Yes.
21:05Has she seen the movie?
21:06Uh, I have no idea if she's seen the movie.
21:09So you haven't showed it to her?
21:11No, we had no contact.
21:12The only person that had contact with Ruth was Michelle.
21:14Mm-hmm.
21:15I have, um, heard from Ruth since, um, the publicity about the, um, uh, the film coming
21:23out, uh, has begun.
21:25Um, I think she's come to understand that she has unwillingly, uh, wound up shackled to this
21:33historic fraud.
21:34You know, that she will never be able to, to escape it.
21:37It's a part of history.
21:38It's a, uh, a part of, uh, this nation's history.
21:42And, and she unwillingly is in it.
21:45Um, and so I, I think, um, this, this round, I think, was, was less stressful for her than,
21:54for example, the ABC, um, uh, period, uh, that, that came along.
22:00Um, she, as I think you captured, uh, Michelle captured so beautifully, she is an astonishingly
22:07resilient woman.
22:09I mean, she, uh, the, the strength to have kept loving Bernie and getting so little back.
22:16I mean, that was one of the, uh, the revelations of, uh, of Michelle's performance.
22:21Um, she was a strong woman and she is a strong woman to this day.
22:26Um, so I think she has come to terms with it.
22:31I won't say she likes it.
22:33I won't say she wouldn't wish that this movie hadn't been made and everyone would just forget
22:37Bernie Madoff forever.
22:39But I think she understands that that isn't going to happen.
22:43Uh, and that, uh, she just has to live with that now.
22:46The movie really feels a lot like Ruth's story.
22:49And I think partly because of the wonderful performance.
22:53But, I mean, did you set out thinking that's where it would go, Barry?
22:59Uh, no, I, I think, um, at, at the center is the family dynamic.
23:05I think that's the key to it.
23:07How did, how did Bernie deal with his boys?
23:10How did Bernie deal with his wife?
23:12I think that's at the center of it.
23:14And I, I think you begin to understand, um, how the boys don't know certain things.
23:19Because he was so dominant.
23:20I mean, to the, to the degree that in the case of Mark, that literally you take away his steak
23:26and say you gotta eat, you know, lobster.
23:28Uh, in, in its own cockeyed way, it shows you how in control he was of the things that
23:36he wanted to talk about, the things he didn't want to talk about.
23:39And the fact that Ruth met him at such a young age that she never developed as a woman on
23:44her own, independent and whatever, that she was always connected to Bernie.
23:48And then all of a sudden this thing happens one day and then the world is turned upside down.
23:54And, and everybody is struggling for, to make sense out of this.
23:58So I think that family component, um, in a sense is the, is the gravity that holds it all together.
24:05And then we see how it plays out in, in, in these various strands.
24:10The, the boiler room scenes, um, with Frank, Hank's character, so interesting and evocative of showing the two different worlds.
24:21You know, the boiler room, those people in there, they're kind of like, you know, little scuzzy, you know, kind of.
24:28And, and then they're at this fabulous.
24:32I'm so, I can hear you.
24:34Once a year they came together.
24:45Right.
24:46Right.
24:47So how, I mean, were you going for the sort of class distinction, the class difference?
24:55Well, there is that.
24:56I mean, he, Bernie even talks about it when, uh, uh, when Andy says to him, you know, I, I, I heard, you know, Frank talking about comparing, you know, women's vagina to cars and whatever, et cetera.
25:09And, and, and Bernie said, you know, just because, you know, you, you, you know, he was basically saying, you know, you had education fine.
25:16They didn't. So what?
25:17He's, he's capable.
25:18He knows what he's doing.
25:19That you can see where, in a sense, Bernie lines up with Frank in terms of how they, they're able to interact with one another.
25:28And the boys are outside of that.
25:30I think it's also important to note that Bernie was himself a self-made man.
25:36And to some extent he, he disdained, uh, the fact that his sons had been born with a silver spoon in their mouth that he'd put there.
25:44Um, and so he, um, I, I think in this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde parallel, I think Frank was a son in a way.
25:54Was a, that, uh, he certainly saw, uh, Bernie as a father figure.
25:59And I think to some extent Bernie saw Frankie as this go-getter, you know, unpolished kid.
26:07Not so different from the kid who came out of Queens and started trading stocks in 1960.
26:12So I think there was that dynamic.
26:15The sons, of course, had gone to the Wharton School and to the University of Michigan and had been well-educated
26:22and, and had had a very privileged life.
26:25Their perspective on the world was very different from Bernie's and very different from, from Frankie's.
26:30I keep calling these people as if they're really the characters they play.
26:34That's how good they were.
26:35Well, that's where Bernie lashes out at, uh, at Mark in that one scene.
26:40And when, you know, I told your, your mother, et cetera, and you can't handle it, et cetera.
26:44Maybe, he says, you know, maybe, uh, Andy, but not you.
26:48So he did see a Frank in a very different way than, than his boys.
26:55Bob, did you, did you see parallels in where Bernie came from and made it to in your own experience growing up in New York at a certain time?
27:08No, my, my experience is different, but, but I understand it.
27:17Uh, I, I understand it and, and, and, and, and what Barry is just saying and, and Diana, the difference and how he could relate to Frank.
27:28And the kids had another life, they were raised another way, they were born with a silver, a silver spoon in their mouth.
27:35So there is that kind of, uh, mixed thing that he's happy that they are, but at the same time don't, you don't understand what I understand.
27:46Right.
27:47Being from where I came, you won't understand it. Frank understands it.
27:50Yeah.
27:51So there is that unsaid, unspoken dynamic, if you will, with a more quote.
28:00Um, they, it's interesting because in the film, there's a sequence where Bernie blames the victims when he's talking to you.
28:07He's basically says they're greedy.
28:09And, um, I think there was a lot of, in the, in the coverage, there was a lot of victim shaming.
28:15So were you, Jane, Barry, and in the script, were you conscious of not doing that?
28:22Were you, did, was that something that you were aware of that you wanted to avoid?
28:26In terms of...
28:28In terms of casting the victims as greedy and blaming them for being taken by this man?
28:34I mean, I think we just try to tell the story.
28:38I mean, a lot of people just, you know, these feeder funds, you know, they, they give money to that person and it goes, I mean, a lot of these people had no contact with Bernie Madoff.
28:47It just went to this and they put, gave it with it.
28:50So they don't understand necessarily where, how and where the money goes.
28:54They only know about, you know, returns on it.
28:56I, I think that there's a perception that these people were all involved in this, were all very wealthy people.
29:03Which was not the case.
29:05There were some people that, that was their, their income in retirement and just living off of that.
29:11And, and Diana could speak to that, you know, more so.
29:14But all of these people are not super wealthy millionaires that were involved with Bernie Madoff.
29:20There were a lot of people that were, this was supposedly a safe investment.
29:24It was a safe investment.
29:25It was a safe investment that they believed and they also trusted.
29:31And so much of what this movie is about is about trusting whether to trust the person who you're giving your funds to or to be able to trust your, your parents and your father.
29:46And I think that was the key and also to be respectful to all the individual stories who had been victimized by Bernie.
29:58And it, it, it should be said that it was absolutely rational to trust Bernie Madoff based on what the world knew of his stature, his success, the way he presented himself.
30:11And he was, as Jane said, he was seen as a conservative choice.
30:17There are many, many years in the Madoff, the run of the Madoff fraud, when his investors would have made more money in the Fidelity Magellan Fund than they made with Bernie.
30:26But they saw it as less volatile and as safer.
30:29So I'm, I argue frequently against this outdated notion that Ponzi scheme victims are all done in by their own greed.
30:42And that it's, you know, it was too good to be true.
30:45One of my favorite lines is that, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, you're dealing with an amateur.
30:52Think about it because really only an amateur would actually make it sound too good to be true.
30:59And Bernie never did that.
31:00He made it sound really, really attractive.
31:03He made it sound really, really safe.
31:06He made his investors, particularly the less wealthy investors, feel very, very safe.
31:13So it was not, you didn't have to be greedy to trust Bernie Madoff.
31:18You had to be frightened.
31:19And there was a little bit of vanity to be, you know, let into the circle of Madoff investors.
31:25But greed had nothing to do with it, really.
31:27That's a, that's an old fashioned notion of how Ponzi schemes work, which I hope Madoff has finally erased from the blackboard.
31:34I mean, following on that, you know, certainly the media coverage and the villainization of Bernie, which deserved to be villainized, but the family, was a big part of the story.
31:47And the, this, we see that scene where Mark is reading the message boards right before he kills himself.
31:53You know, it's, this seems to tell a very cautionary story about the weaponization of the media and the internet.
32:03Is that something that you were going for with this, that you saw as part of the story?
32:09Well, I mean, it's interesting because there's, you see Mark following this and then you see how all of a sudden it ramps up.
32:19And they were ill prepared for, one, the father is involved in a scandal.
32:24Okay.
32:25That's terrible.
32:26But I don't think any of them realized that it would come crashing down on them as, as it did in terms of, you know, Ruth.
32:33And all of a sudden she starts going out and she's being, you know, you know, tracked by paparazzi or, or going into a beauty salon or suddenly being vilified for something that she didn't know about.
32:46Or the boys who no longer can function as they once did.
32:50And that begins to build and build and build.
32:53And it becomes a sort of a frenzy in itself without actual information.
32:57You know, after two years, the FBI never came up with anything to implicate the boys to this Ponzi scheme that the father, you know, started.
33:07And, but they got caught up in that storm and there was no, nothing that would relieve them from it.
33:15I should say too, as a journalist of a certain age, this was one of the most unusual things about the Madoff story for me.
33:25The classically, typically, I've covered an enormous number of financial frauds and financial con artists over the years.
33:34Traditionally, going back decades, the family is left alone.
33:39I mean, mobsters' families are usually left alone by the media.
33:44It was so unusual.
33:46It was such a departure from traditional media practice for the family members of a white collar criminal to be sucked into this vortex the way the Madoffs were.
34:00You know, I could name you any number of criminals now living in federal prisons whose families you've never heard of.
34:08And yet, their crimes were deemed very significant at the time.
34:13So, I think Bernie was completely blindsided by the extent to which his family was caught up in this vortex.
34:20But that was also, I think, also because the family was ironically so close.
34:25There was so much love in the family.
34:28If you can try and understand that.
34:31I mean, that was one of the sort of fascinating things to grapple with in the relationship.
34:36Well, you saw that, I think, between Mark and Bernie.
34:40I mean, just even the physical affection between father and son.
34:44Yeah, and it wasn't fake, you know, from everything that, you know, all the research I'd done.
34:51And a lot of which just was from pictures, just looking at pictures of them together a lot, you know.
34:56And there is a lot of physical contact between all of the family.
35:01And when you see them together, you know, you felt that bond and that loyalty.
35:08And anecdotal accounts also said that, you know, there was that sense of, like, lockdown with, you know, in and around the family.
35:20That, you know, family came first.
35:23And with the two boys that became really difficult for their respective partners.
35:28You know, you were either in or you were out.
35:31And that kind of intense bond and closeness and loyalty, you know, of course, was running parallel to this alternate universe of abuse.
35:48And that was, you know.
35:50You should have run for president.
35:52Sorry, what?
35:53What did you say?
35:58Say it again.
35:59What did you say?
36:00What did you say?
36:01Say it again.
36:02What did you say?
36:03I said he should have run for president.
36:17Another movie.
36:20Let's get out of the real movie now first.
36:26It's called Bozo.
36:41But we are talking about the con artist, right?
36:44Yes.
36:45We are talking about, I think the question was about the use of media.
36:54That's right.
36:57Anything you want to add, Jane?
37:00Anything else you want to add?
37:03I'm done.
37:08Well, that brings me to a question I did have.
37:11So, is this movie more prescient now?
37:14Because since that happened, after Madoff, after the financial collapse, the Obama administration
37:22set reforms.
37:24The current administration is rolling them back, including the rule that retirement investors
37:32must put the interests of their client first.
37:35So, is this movie, and a lot of economists have said we're in a bubble and it could burst
37:43and it could be painful.
37:45So, is this movie more timely now, unfortunately?
37:49Well, I think it's timely in a number of ways.
37:55It is how you can ultimately manipulate large numbers of people by creating a false narrative.
38:06And that's always a frightening thing.
38:10And the con artist continues to evolve.
38:13In that, once upon a time you say, well, the con artist was a slick-talking, fast kind of guy, right?
38:18Bernie Madoff is sort of reserved.
38:21His con was, I don't know if I want your money.
38:25I don't know if I can handle it.
38:27I don't know if I, you know, I'll see what I can do type of thing.
38:30Which was different.
38:31So, all of those things continue to evolve.
38:34And what happens is we're always falling into another, you know, booby trap.
38:40Because it continues to change.
38:43So, the idea that, well, we need to roll back these regulations as if that would be good for us.
38:49I don't understand how that is, but that's the story.
38:53The narrative you lay out and then it happens.
38:56I mean, you go back to Glass-Steagall, whatever the specific restrictions were.
39:00Well, let's get rid of it.
39:01And we did.
39:02And then you see the result.
39:04And then we put something else in place.
39:05Well, let's get rid of it.
39:07So, there's that constant tug of war that happens in the financial world that affects not just the people who are investing.
39:15It affects the entire country.
39:17Because at some point we all pay the price for this kind of, you know, criminal behavior.
39:22But this is all enabled by a lot of the current fake news.
39:31It's enabled by social media, social networks, connectivity, technology.
39:37I mean, has that, you're all public people.
39:40Has that affected your lives and how you live?
39:46Do you feel under siege sometimes by the attention?
39:49I mean, it's an ever-changing world.
40:03I mean, I remember a decade ago saying something that I thought was to a comedy club full of people.
40:10And, oh, yeah, it was being recorded.
40:11And the Post picks it up the next day on page six.
40:15And it became a story.
40:16And then I was like, whoa, I guess I'm actually talking to the entire world whenever I say anything that's recorded.
40:21And we all just take that for granted.
40:23But even little things like I used to, you know, if I didn't want to sign an autograph or stop for a picture, I just would blow right by people.
40:33And then in the age of TMZ when you're being filmed doing everything you do, I've honestly been a little more conscious of I can't just behave any way I want to if I'm in not a good mood or whatever.
40:45Because it's going to be captured and put out everywhere.
40:49So I thought that was an interesting theme in the movie, the fishbowl theme.
40:53It kept coming up over and over again.
40:55Bernie feels it.
40:56And then they all feel it in their houses.
40:58And then with the social media, there's really no escaping it, no matter how many, you know, having blinds up there didn't really help Mark in the end.
41:08So how do you deal with that?
41:10How do you deal with this new world, this ever changing, quickly changing, evolving world when you're a performer, a public person who's, I mean, we used to just be the critics.
41:21Now it's like everybody.
41:23Bob, you want to take that one?
41:28Well, everybody's, I guess on the internet, everybody's a critic and everybody's got something to say.
41:33And I suppose I don't, I don't get into that.
41:38So I don't know what it's about.
41:40And I don't care to know because it'll only be more, it's just not worth it to hear every asshole's opinion about something.
41:48And opinions are like assholes.
41:55Everybody's got one, not interested.
41:59So, and we got a big asshole in the White House now.
42:06We have a real problem that we have to help fix.
42:14Any idea how we do that?
42:29Impeachment.
42:34We have, we have a midterm, we have a midterm election coming up.
42:39So I think we all need to support a lot of new candidates.
42:43And we have to turn the House and Senate in the midterm.
42:49So that's it.
42:51So Diana, we were talking before we came out about the script process.
43:00So what's that like as the author of a book and countless articles about Bernie to have these other people in your stuff?
43:09Well, the three extremely talented script writers who worked on adapting my book were each one a delight to work with in different ways.
43:22It is actually an illuminating process.
43:26I would dare to say, my book editor might disagree, but I would dare to say that I'm a better writer now for having seen this book turned into a movie.
43:35Because it gives you a greater sense of the architecture of a story, of the visual forward motion that you need.
43:46So it was extremely educational to see the script writers work.
43:52I should also say though, in commendation of those script writers, Sam Levinson, Sam Baum, and John Burnham Schwartz, and Barry,
44:02that I was a genuine consultant to that writing process.
44:07It wasn't pro forma.
44:09They received my input.
44:12They treated it respectfully.
44:14They made amendments where I thought they were necessary both for accuracy and for faithfulness to the characters as I had known them.
44:29So it was a, I won't say a painless process.
44:33It was hard work and it was a lot of back and forth emails and such, but it was a respectful and very collegial process.
44:40But inside my head, I think it really did fundamentally change the way I think about structuring stories.
44:47We'll see when my next book comes out.
44:49But I was very energized by the experience.
44:55So we have time for just a couple more questions.
44:57So I just wanted to ask Jane and Bob, when you acquired Diana's book, was it always with the thought that Bob would be playing Bertie Madoff?
45:06Who else?
45:07Yeah, I went through a lot of sort of iterations and with different writers and so on and finally got to the point with Barry and his son Sam.
45:22They made it really right, or what we felt was right.
45:29And even then I, for personal reasons, I wasn't sure I wanted to do it, but of course I wanted to do it because we had the rights.
45:37We started the whole project and Barry, I know, we've worked together a few times and I liked the project.
45:46So anyway, I wound up doing it, so I'm happy I did.
45:50Did you, so what was your, did you have some, you said you had some hesitancy?
45:54What, what?
45:55No, it wasn't, it was not about the material, it was just about the time that we were doing.
45:59It was all logistical stuff, had nothing to do with anything else.
46:03And you, not too recently, you said you were just gonna do comedies, no more of this dark stuff.
46:09I was gonna what?
46:10Just comedy, no more dark stuff.
46:12Who said that?
46:13You did.
46:14That I was just gonna do comedies?
46:16I think you were kidding.
46:18Unless this is a comedy.
46:20Did I say, say that again?
46:23In an interview, you said that you wanted to do more comedy.
46:28No, no, if a good comedy came along, I'd do it, but I'd do anything, you know, of course.
46:35This is not a comedy.
46:37So, no, no, I don't, I don't know where that came from.
46:43I'm sorry, it's hard to hear everybody speaking on the stage.
46:52The echo is kind of strange.
46:54So, that's why I kept asking you what, to repeat it.
46:58If I could just share a brief memory, when Bob and I very first discussed this book with Jane on the phone.
47:04Bob was calling in from some remote location, I'm not sure which.
47:07And the first thing he said when he picked up his end of the line, I'm sitting in a little conference room in the New York Times, you know, just starstruck beyond belief.
47:16And he gets on the phone and he says, Diana?
47:18I said, yes, Mr. De Niro.
47:20He said, Diana, I am Bernie Madoff.
47:24And he sure as heck sounded like it to me.
47:31So, it sounded to me like he was pretty intent on that character from the beginning.
47:37Frankly, I can't imagine anybody handling it better.
47:39I really can't.
47:41Thank you, everyone.
47:42And here's your cast.
47:49Thank you for coming.
47:52Hope you enjoyed the film.
Be the first to comment