What Would a Ban on Ukraine’s NATO Bid Mean?

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00:00One of the points I would like to ask you about, given your NATO credentials,

00:04is that one of the conditions in the original 28-point plan, and we don't know if it's still

00:08in there, is this idea that Ukraine should enshrine in its constitution that it will

00:14never seek NATO membership. I'd like to ask, I mean, that sets an interesting precedent,

00:22doesn't it? And a massive implication here for NATO, because apparently NATO can no longer

00:29choose who and who is not a future member of the NATO alliance. What do you make of that?

00:35Well, it's very interesting. I think you're right to point at this, because it's very

00:40psychological. That's why I think, you know, it has been written by the Russians, because

00:44for them, NATO is a sort of obsession. Too much, I think, too much. NATO is not an aggressive

00:50organization. Never tried to aggress Russia, but, you know, these are different views.

00:56We can't help it. You know, this is something, too. But, you know, it's, if I can speak frankly,

01:04you know, I think that the membership in NATO is not on the agenda. It has never been on

01:12the agenda. Also, because of very, of a very simple, very basic thing, that there is probably

01:19no consensus that is needed among the NATO members. There are 32 now, 32 countries. And

01:28it's sufficient that one country, Greece, Portugal, I don't know, whatever you can choose, says

01:33no, the country will never come to become a member. If you take the case, for instance,

01:41a little bit forgotten, if you like, of Macedonia. You remember, Macedonia has to be a member

01:46of NATO since 2005, something like that. But it could not, because Greece was opposing the

01:54entry of Macedonia into NATO because of the name, because they were afraid that there was

01:59a confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia. And so, in fact, the Macedonians called the country

02:06North Macedonia, which is now the Greek name. And five years ago, they entered into NATO. So,

02:13for 20 years, the entry of Macedonia, a small country of two million people, had been blocked

02:19just because of a name. So, you know, you need a consensus for that. And Ukraine, everybody

02:24understands, I think, that Ukraine doesn't need to be an member of NATO, if I may say so,

02:30with my credentials. It doesn't need to be. There is one point, if I may,

02:35which is very important. And it is a little bit overlooked into all this, that NATO seems to be

02:42a sort of, you know, a red blanket. It is something that is not possible to accept.

02:49And this is one thing. But on the other hand, the European Union seems to be all right. And this is,

02:58again, a little strange, because I think that for the future of Ukraine, in the end, the European Union

03:07is probably more important than NATO, in the end, in the long range, because of economic region,

03:12society, whatever, you know, is more important. But probably for the Russians, they never understood

03:20very well the European Union, you know, because it's not about military force, it's not by power,

03:26it's more soft power, a Pacific entity in their eyes, more than in reality. And so for them,

03:34the European Union, there is no veto on that. And this is very important, very important also for the Ukrainians.