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In this episode of The InEVitable by MotorTrend
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00:00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
00:00:30Hi there! Welcome to The Inevitable.
00:00:37This is Motor Trend's podcast, our vodcast about, well, it's about the future of cars.
00:00:46Today's a different type of episode. It's kind of maybe more Los Angeles-focused than we typically do.
00:00:53But I think it's important because, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about EVs,
00:00:57and a lot of these EVs suddenly have 1,000 horsepower.
00:01:00You have family sedans that are doing the quarter mile in under 10 seconds, like, you know.
00:01:05And so what do you actually do with these things?
00:01:08Well, one thing you might do is take them to a track, take them to a private facility.
00:01:12And this is about what Singer is doing at Willow Springs.
00:01:17We're going to talk with their CEO all about that.
00:01:21But before we do, this gentleman, Ed Lowe, has got a message for you.
00:01:25The Inevitable vodcast is brought to you by no one quite yet.
00:01:29So if you would like to sponsor an episode, give me a shout-out.
00:01:33Edward.loh.hurst.com. Send me a note.
00:01:36Let me correct you.
00:01:37Not the CEO.
00:01:39Former CEO.
00:01:40Now Chief Strategy Officer for Singer.
00:01:43Fair enough.
00:01:44Fair enough.
00:01:44Involved in their acquisition of Willow Springs International Raceway.
00:01:49So we could call this the Future of Racing in Los Angeles episode.
00:01:55But also, I think it's going to have global ramifications.
00:01:58It's about motorsports events.
00:02:00It's about some very interesting and really fun stuff that is coming to the greater Los Angeles area,
00:02:07thanks to Singer's and their partner's acquisition of the fastest racetrack in the West.
00:02:14So we're having on Maz is his name.
00:02:18Maz Fawaz.
00:02:19Fawaz.
00:02:20He is one of the co-founders of what is now known as Singer.
00:02:24Yeah.
00:02:25And let's get him on.
00:02:28This is a fun episode for me because I love having guests on that actually met at a bar.
00:02:35Tell us.
00:02:35I don't know if you remember, but we were at...
00:02:37I can't remember the name of it.
00:02:38It's probably Rensport.
00:02:40I think it was Rensport.
00:02:42Drew Koblitz was involved.
00:02:43But we were at that bar by the hotel in Monterey, the Crown and Anchor.
00:02:47Crown and Anchor.
00:02:48Yeah.
00:02:48Nautical-themed.
00:02:49Which Rensport?
00:02:50The last one.
00:02:51Okay.
00:02:52Just happened.
00:02:53Or not just happened, but two years ago already.
00:02:55Yeah, something like that.
00:02:55And yeah, we sat next to each other and had a...
00:02:58That was a fun night.
00:02:59That was a fun night.
00:03:00So Maz, welcome.
00:03:01Yeah.
00:03:01Thanks for coming.
00:03:02Thanks for having me.
00:03:03Even after you met Johnny at a bar.
00:03:05Yeah.
00:03:05No, we had a really good time.
00:03:06We had a great time.
00:03:07Despite Koblitz, we had a great time.
00:03:08Okay.
00:03:10So, you know, this podcast is ostensibly about the future of mobility, the future of the
00:03:16car.
00:03:18In this case, I think it's the future of all the things that you're doing, you're involved
00:03:23in, so which would include Singer.
00:03:25And I think the most recent announcement, this expansion to the fastest road in the West,
00:03:31right?
00:03:32Willow Springs International Raceway.
00:03:34Is that still a name?
00:03:35Like, what do you guys...
00:03:36Yeah.
00:03:36Willow Springs International Raceway, which if you're not from California or the greater
00:03:41Los Angeles area, is arguably the best, nearest racetrack.
00:03:47Definitely one of the two.
00:03:48To the greatest, to the greater Los Angeles area.
00:03:51It's where...
00:03:52And the only.
00:03:52The only.
00:03:53Yeah.
00:03:53Well, but also, if you see, if you watch Ford versus Ferrari, they're actually at Willow
00:03:59on location, and they...
00:04:00A lot of history.
00:04:01Moved in some fake cactus, and...
00:04:03A lot of vehicle development has been done out there, a lot of TV commercials, a lot of
00:04:07movies.
00:04:08Motor Trend history.
00:04:09Yes, Motor Trend, we've been testing there for a long time.
00:04:12We used to do a ton of video work out there.
00:04:15And now, it is under new ownership.
00:04:17So, I'll stop talking, and why don't we hear the breaking news from your side of the house?
00:04:23Yeah, and we've been around here for, since 2009, 2009, kind of, but prior to that, Rob,
00:04:35who you guys know, was in the area and part of the culture, right?
00:04:40The sort of LA car culture, which I might argue may be the biggest in the world?
00:04:46I don't know.
00:04:47Yeah, the best for sure.
00:04:48Fighting motors.
00:04:48I just, I mean, it's a massive metro area, right?
00:04:50Yeah.
00:04:51So, it's a, which, which actually, you know, brings...
00:04:53And it's a city that really needs cars.
00:04:55And it's, it's what brings us to the business of a racetrack in LA Metro that makes a lot
00:04:59of sense, right?
00:05:00If there's any, really, honestly, I think you could say, if there's any city on earth that
00:05:05should have a motorsports facility, it might be it.
00:05:08Maybe top of the list.
00:05:09And you said Rob, Rob Dickinson, who was the founder of Singer Vehicles.
00:05:14He was a singer in a band.
00:05:15Yes.
00:05:16And singers.
00:05:16Yes.
00:05:17But, you know, LA at one point had the most racetracks of any city on earth.
00:05:23Yeah.
00:05:23If you go back like over a hundred years, over a hundred racetracks were in the city of LA.
00:05:27Yeah.
00:05:28So, yeah, it's...
00:05:29Loosely defined.
00:05:30Loosely defined.
00:05:30Well, this is the city, the county, the county.
00:05:32Yeah.
00:05:33Yeah.
00:05:34So...
00:05:34No, it's, it's, it's something that we've sort of always understood.
00:05:38So, of course, we've tested there, you know, it's, it's where you go to drive something
00:05:44quickly.
00:05:44You don't do it on public roads, right?
00:05:46If you're really, especially if we're testing sort of experimental stuff.
00:05:50Though we do, most of our development is in, is out of England.
00:05:53So we're testing in England and Europe during the, during the winters.
00:05:57But it was all, it's always something we've been very close to.
00:06:00I raced there a few times with those Porsche club things.
00:06:04And, you know, every time, it's an hour and 10 minutes from my front door.
00:06:09I live in Santa Monica.
00:06:10Yeah.
00:06:10So it's not like I live out, you know, out near there.
00:06:12I live in town.
00:06:14So it's something you can do for the day.
00:06:16It's not like, for me, Palm Springs is sort of overnight.
00:06:19Yeah.
00:06:19Of course.
00:06:20Yeah.
00:06:20If you're especially in a drive for the...
00:06:21And remember, it's past Palm Springs.
00:06:22Thermal is 45 minutes past Palm Springs.
00:06:24Yeah.
00:06:24Well, and Chuck Wallop, which is fantastic.
00:06:26Which is even further.
00:06:27Past that.
00:06:27So, you know, it's always something that I paid attention to that, you know, man, man,
00:06:33I wish it was nice.
00:06:33Right.
00:06:34I wish it was something.
00:06:35It was built in 1953.
00:06:37I think they might have spent exactly zero dollars since 1953.
00:06:41Just, you know, it was just sort of left to age.
00:06:45There were some, you know, fixes here and there, but it was, it kind of was just, just left
00:06:52that way.
00:06:52It might've made sense when, you know, in the period when tire technology was nothing
00:06:58compared to what it is today, cars were generally slower.
00:07:01Maybe it wasn't, it was, it had a different sort of effect, but now, of course, things
00:07:05are much, much faster.
00:07:07And look, over the years, like I just, my time there, I started going there in 2010,
00:07:11you know, the track, not even the track, the dirt next to the track eroded and it was
00:07:17just getting dangerous.
00:07:18I mean, it was just, you know, if you dropped a wheel, it was, you're done.
00:07:21You actually dropped a wheel.
00:07:22You actually dropped down several inches and then, yeah.
00:07:27And then you, you put your wheel into a, you know, a hard piece of cement.
00:07:30Well, it's also a higher slip.
00:07:32So you're into dirt, you actually lose track.
00:07:34It's sort of sucked, sucked off the circuit.
00:07:36So it's just, it's something that I was just sort of always staring at.
00:07:40And then, you know, a bunch of pretty cool coincidences sort of fell into place.
00:07:45We have a customer who, uh, is, is an enormous, um, developer in Montana and, uh, own and operate
00:07:53a private ski, ski, ski resort.
00:07:55Right.
00:07:56Uh, amongst a million other things, hotels and they've developed, uh, maybe tens or hundreds
00:08:01of thousands of acres, uh, entire cities.
00:08:04So, um, and if, you know, a fabulous guy, um, and I got to spend some time with him and
00:08:13when I heard it was coming up for sale, which I think everyone sort of heard at the same
00:08:16time, um, I brought it up to him, which was actually at Le Mans, um, last year.
00:08:21So this was not that long ago.
00:08:22Um, and he had heard about it through someone, someone had mentioned it to him and it's been
00:08:29something that's been on his radar for a while.
00:08:32And, uh, it, we just sort of converged in, you know, what kind of what singer could bring
00:08:37and what they could bring.
00:08:39Um, and the, you know, the, that team, which is Cross Harbor, uh, which you may have seen
00:08:45in some press releases.
00:08:46Sure, sure.
00:08:47Um, and this is Sam you're talking about.
00:08:49Sam.
00:08:49Yeah.
00:08:49So they don't mess around.
00:08:52Right.
00:08:52It was, I think they were out at our shop, uh, within two weeks and we flew out there and
00:08:58landed, talked to the ownership and it was, it was under contract and within a couple of
00:09:02months.
00:09:03Wow.
00:09:03And when was this like what month, what year?
00:09:07So Le Mans last year was June.
00:09:10June.
00:09:10Okay.
00:09:11Yeah.
00:09:11So July.
00:09:12Yeah.
00:09:13Yeah.
00:09:13It went fairly quickly.
00:09:15Okay.
00:09:15Um, and how long had it been?
00:09:16Cause it was announced that it was going to go on.
00:09:19Was it six months prior to that?
00:09:21That kind of the word got out that they were.
00:09:22I don't know.
00:09:23You know, I'm not really sure.
00:09:24I feel like it was longer.
00:09:26I've heard about it being for sale.
00:09:28We, we had heard, I like, uh, somehow I met someone else who said that they were, they
00:09:32had looked at, at buying it, but it wasn't, it didn't sort of, I don't think it went particularly
00:09:36public.
00:09:38You know, it wasn't that long between then and when, when I had that conversation.
00:09:42I don't, I don't quite remember.
00:09:43And then there's a lot of interest and we, we had heard, if, if not knew some of the
00:09:48other people that were interested in bidding, but you know, these guys that, that we're
00:09:53partners with are really experienced.
00:09:55They really understand what it takes to develop land, the costs, the timing.
00:09:59And this is their first, uh, racetrack.
00:10:02Their first racetrack.
00:10:03Right.
00:10:03Um, you know, we, I think, I think, uh, two things, singer, uh, myself and so on, we've
00:10:11been sort of steeped in this for a long time.
00:10:13We bring a lot of this, maybe street knowledge, right?
00:10:16What would make sense and what would people like and what people not like, what would we
00:10:19love really?
00:10:20Um, but also, um, the, the, the, which is now the Willow Springs team put together, um,
00:10:27uh, a pool of experts.
00:10:29So Alex Wirtz, who's, who designed a Red Bull ring and a bunch of stuff.
00:10:33So real track designers, not, I think it should go this way or that way.
00:10:37Yeah.
00:10:38Yeah.
00:10:38And then I've driven those tracks.
00:10:39Yeah.
00:10:40And then, and then Speedway Motorsports who, uh, who own and operate a bunch of NASCAR
00:10:45tracks.
00:10:45They operate Sonoma now.
00:10:46Oh, okay.
00:10:47Um, so there really are experts in not just track operations and, you know, ticketing and
00:10:52all that stuff, but like track surfaces, curbs, runoff, uh, you know, concrete asphalt,
00:10:58all that.
00:10:59They, they really, really know that they've done it a million times over.
00:11:02They're kind of the best in the world.
00:11:04Um, so they, they came in.
00:11:06So it isn't, it isn't just, you know, a few of us feeling around the dark, trying to figure
00:11:09it out.
00:11:10There are really good, um, uh, experts on this who are able to then sort of assess,
00:11:15this is prior by the way, to the purchase, assess what needs to be done.
00:11:19How long is it going to take?
00:11:20How much is it going to cost?
00:11:21How many people do you need?
00:11:21You know, blah, blah, blah, like really put together a business plan, um, fairly, fairly
00:11:27quickly.
00:11:27I mean, it happened in a couple of months.
00:11:29Um, so you have a team of experts we've established.
00:11:32I want to dive into each of the operations that you mentioned, but before that, I was
00:11:36wondering whether we can entertain, uh, entertain us in terms of some of the other bidders.
00:11:43I'd heard all sorts of crazy rumors, like, uh, influencers were going to buy, buy the
00:11:48track.
00:11:48I heard Miss Amelia said she was putting in some.
00:11:50I think it's the difference between, you know, saying something on social media and actually
00:11:54bidding, but it was expensive.
00:11:56Um, and it's not just expensive, but to improve it, I mean, the costs are, are, it's, it's,
00:12:02it's a real, it's not like a million of dollars, more than millions of hundreds.
00:12:07Yeah.
00:12:07Yeah.
00:12:07It's a, it's a very big, over a long period of time.
00:12:12So if you go from, you know, sort of today to what we, what the plan is, which would take
00:12:17many years, right?
00:12:19You know, five, five plus years over that period of time, it will take a lot of, a lot
00:12:24of investment to do, to do what I, what we think the thing deserves.
00:12:29I was going to ask, like, so, you know, you, you meet Sam, uh, when Sam, Sam, what's
00:12:33his last name?
00:12:33Byrne.
00:12:33Byrne.
00:12:34Byrne.
00:12:34Byrne.
00:12:34Right, right, right.
00:12:35So, yep.
00:12:36Um, so you meet Sam, who I've, I've talked to, a lovely man.
00:12:38Yeah.
00:12:39Um, got me a helicopter ride the other day, which we'll get to.
00:12:42Um, but, uh, like you meet him, you pitch it, he, he comes out like, how, when did
00:12:48you know, like it was really happening?
00:12:49Cause it's kind of like a, a crazy thing to buy a racetrack, right?
00:12:53Yeah.
00:12:53It, um, um, I mean, the way these things go is, is, and, and he has a, so he has a team
00:13:01of people that with the different expertise from, you know, permitting and building and
00:13:05everything it takes to develop a complex thing that, that we're able to dive in.
00:13:10I was able to meet them.
00:13:10Um, and I was able to watch them really put together a study.
00:13:14So you're going to see what's available, what's legal, things like also just things like the
00:13:19availability of water and electricity and all that stuff.
00:13:21They dove in and did all that.
00:13:24Uh, and it's something they've done many times before.
00:13:27So you could, you could sort of witness the, the, the, the experience going at that to really
00:13:33put together a picture, I would say for Sam, so that he could really assess it, um, and
00:13:38figure out what, you know, what's possible over what period of time and how much capital
00:13:41it need.
00:13:42And, and, and then thinking through the Ford business plans, things that they haven't been
00:13:47involved in, like operating a racetrack.
00:13:50Um, uh, and I can tell you that there's broadly the verticals for the business plan.
00:13:56The business plan is to counter to nonsense.
00:14:00You know, people have completely fabricated.
00:14:02It's meant to be a racetrack and operate as a racetrack as a public racetrack.
00:14:06It always was.
00:14:07There was never, was it going to be a data center or whatever people completely made up?
00:14:11I did hear that.
00:14:12Yeah.
00:14:12Oh yeah.
00:14:13We heard data centers, houses, clearly made up by people who have never been there.
00:14:19Cause it's surrounded by like 300,000 acres of flat dirt.
00:14:22I don't know why you would buy the racetrack and shut it down.
00:14:25Right.
00:14:25It doesn't make any sense.
00:14:26Cause there's, yeah, that's, I always tell people, cause yeah, somebody was like, oh,
00:14:29they're going to do a freeway through there.
00:14:31I go, there's a freeway next to it.
00:14:33And like, there's so much land you can go.
00:14:36It was a lot cheaper.
00:14:37Total fabrication.
00:14:39And we were a little surprised and ended up having to like, kind of say something about
00:14:43it.
00:14:43Right.
00:14:43Right.
00:14:43Because I was like, who, cause people are worried it was going to shut down.
00:14:47Who buys the thing and just closes it?
00:14:50Like, yeah.
00:14:51Right.
00:14:51Oh, I heard high speed rail.
00:14:53They're going to put high speed rail through.
00:14:54Totally made up.
00:14:56Like, no, it's a racetrack.
00:14:57It's meant to be a racetrack.
00:14:58So the first, the first part of the business plan is to operate as a motor, motor sports facility
00:15:03to obviously update it in a whole bunch of ways.
00:15:07It's not to sort of leave the history behind and make it look like a weird new shiny object.
00:15:13We definitely want to lean into the, to what it, to what it is and what it has been.
00:15:16Yeah.
00:15:17It has an iconic shape, like the big track people know, the silhouette.
00:15:20And the, that, and of course that will stay, but adding optionality, like, you know, chicanes
00:15:25and things you can take or not take and actually adding about eight tenths of a mile to, to
00:15:29Big Willow, but runoff electric flagboards, you know, the sort of modern things to, to make
00:15:35it actually FIE2 compliant.
00:15:38So it could happen.
00:15:38To me, that's the, that's the, when I heard that, I was like, oh, these guys are serious.
00:15:42Cause I, I kind of like, you know, the NĂĽrburgring is FIE2, Paul Ricard is FIE2.
00:15:47Yeah.
00:15:48Like that, I've been to the, I've driven those facilities.
00:15:50But I mean, they're, they're not only real though, but it means if you, you know, do have
00:15:53a bad moment, you survive, generally speaking.
00:15:56Like, well, yeah, that's right.
00:15:58Yeah.
00:15:58So you can go out, you know, an amateur should be able to go out there and enjoy themselves
00:16:03and feel like, you know, to some degree, they understand what to do, where to go, what
00:16:08happens if it goes wrong, all that kind of thing.
00:16:09And then, and then a pro should be able to go out and challenge themselves.
00:16:12You could, you should have that, that range.
00:16:16And, but, you know, from a design and aesthetics perspective, not necessarily like completely
00:16:21vaporize what, what, you know, what, what it was.
00:16:23So it's really the business of being a racetrack, which is, you know, renting track time.
00:16:28It's, you know, which could be for a race.
00:16:31It could be for clubs.
00:16:32It could be for track days.
00:16:34It could be for, I don't know, Ferrari, of course, a cliente, whatever it is.
00:16:39Some of these corporates.
00:16:41I've been to a number of press launches.
00:16:43OEM's launched a new car.
00:16:44Like, you know, Lamborghini's done it.
00:16:46You know, AMG's done it.
00:16:47Toyota's done it.
00:16:48Rent the track.
00:16:49Same thing.
00:16:49And the advantage here of the site is there's more than one track.
00:16:52So you have different opportunities.
00:16:53So that's always been the sort of obvious.
00:16:56That's, that's been, that's always been the plan.
00:16:58The second, I would say there's probably four verticals.
00:17:01The second one is, I know we've been referring it to as OEM.
00:17:05So if you had a tenant there, like, I don't know, Michelin or Bosch or whoever, someone
00:17:10who may want to use the circuits for testing or for client experiences or whatever.
00:17:15Like BMWs at Thermal.
00:17:16They have the BMW Performance Travel School.
00:17:18They have like, you know, 50 BMWs that are parked out front.
00:17:21Same idea.
00:17:21Yeah.
00:17:22We, we, we would, we would, very unlikely we would commit to any big car, you know, car
00:17:26brand or any of that, but they can be there and they can have, you know, a facility.
00:17:31We've heard from race teams and all sorts of people.
00:17:33Sure.
00:17:33You know, what's, what's possible there.
00:17:35So there's that kind of tendency.
00:17:37Um, we, we do intend to build a, a, a car development, um, center, which is something
00:17:44we use.
00:17:44So you have, you know, low grip and, and skip pads and cobblestones and all that stuff.
00:17:50Yeah.
00:17:50All that stuff that we know a lot of folks, I mean, Porsche, of course, who test locally,
00:17:56but you can't do that.
00:17:58There's a Honda proving ground.
00:17:59That's a, that's a bit away, you know, far away.
00:18:02Yeah.
00:18:02So we're really familiar with it.
00:18:04We're way too familiar with it.
00:18:06Yeah.
00:18:07And then, uh, I would say there's two more verticals.
00:18:10One of course is the, is the private club, which, which, which we have started the idea
00:18:14that it could have a private club.
00:18:15And I can tell you what that means, but the, but the place doesn't have to be private.
00:18:19It doesn't have to be closed to the public to do that.
00:18:22The club members can have dedicated track time.
00:18:24There's multiple circuits.
00:18:26And the, the function of a private club is that you can, you know, leave your car there.
00:18:30You can leave your gear there.
00:18:31You can have a shower, you can have, you know, lockers, you can have, you know, you can go
00:18:35out there for the day or fly in or whatever.
00:18:37You don't have to live locally to do that.
00:18:40And, you know, you can go and, and, and have track time.
00:18:43And, um, you know, eventually you can get to other, you know, other things that are more
00:18:47elaborate, but a clubhouse and a restaurant and a kind of the thermal is a bit different
00:18:52in that it's really a real estate.
00:18:54Yeah.
00:18:54Like you, you're meant to buy a home, buy land and build a home that that's not, this is
00:18:59like you, like a country club, you pay a, you know, an initiation fee and the manual
00:19:04dues.
00:19:04Um, that's called the singer driver's club.
00:19:07Um, we're, we're just, just sort of just starting with that.
00:19:09Do you have to own a singer to be in the singer?
00:19:11No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:19:12Okay.
00:19:12There's hope.
00:19:13Yeah.
00:19:15For, I mean, for us, it's a, it's a, it's a step for our brand to step.
00:19:19Yeah.
00:19:20It's one little step outside of what, you know, what we do, which isn't totally unrelated
00:19:24to what we do.
00:19:25And look, I've been to, I've been to like, you know, facilities that have car clubs for
00:19:29private clubs or whatever.
00:19:30And they're great.
00:19:30They usually have like a good restaurant and people, people don't even necessarily own
00:19:34cars.
00:19:34They just like, they're friends with the owners that go there and the food's good.
00:19:37It's a good time.
00:19:38Yeah.
00:19:38And it's like, kind of like a private restaurant almost, you know?
00:19:42Yeah.
00:19:42And what's nice is it's, it's legitimately close to town.
00:19:46And I mean, it's not, you know, two seconds away, but it's, you know, it depends where
00:19:49you are.
00:19:50I mean, from Torrance, from our shop, it can be a hike.
00:19:52It can be an hour and a half.
00:19:53I can get there.
00:19:54I live like basically like Glendale.
00:19:56I can get there in under an hour if I push it, you know?
00:19:59Yeah.
00:19:59It's sort of, you sort of very quickly get out of town and there's not really traffic.
00:20:03Yeah.
00:20:04Right.
00:20:04Unless you have to go like from Torrance, we have to go through, you know, all that stuff.
00:20:08So it kind of depends where and when.
00:20:10Okay.
00:20:10But.
00:20:11The fourth pillar.
00:20:11The fourth one are events.
00:20:13It's something.
00:20:14The idea that, that Southern California could have an annual multi-day car event is a thing,
00:20:23right?
00:20:24It's something we've.
00:20:25Say more.
00:20:26Singer Festival of Speed.
00:20:27Well, so we.
00:20:28Trademark that.
00:20:29Boom.
00:20:29So we've, this is, we just, so Goodwood Festival of Speed, we've gone for 10, this is our 10th
00:20:34year.
00:20:34Yeah.
00:20:34We know it intimately, like every square inch of it.
00:20:37We're very close to the people that, that, that own and operate it.
00:20:40And we've seen it grow and change over, you know, over the years.
00:20:44Obviously car week, you know, we've all been to, I don't know how, for 15 years.
00:20:48Something like that.
00:20:49Yeah.
00:20:49About 15 years.
00:20:50And we, you know, we, we never miss a year.
00:20:52Yeah.
00:20:52And the idea that Southern California could have, you know, a multi-day car, not just the,
00:20:58I mean, Luft is awesome or air, water or whatever, but it's obviously very focused on.
00:21:02Yeah.
00:21:02And it's, it's relatively small and it's not multi-day.
00:21:06Yeah.
00:21:06So that to us is, is something, again, that would have to grow over time.
00:21:11You don't, you don't leap to Goodwood Festival of Speed, which has taken a long time and a
00:21:17lot of expertise and really a lot of talent, the folks that, that own and operate that.
00:21:22And, and this event that, that we just had is meant to be the, the sort of first, right.
00:21:29That we would do it every year and ideally, you know, it, it, you know, it's patient and
00:21:35we care for it and it grows over time.
00:21:37So that's, that's something that is, you know, another, but that, which should be, which
00:21:43should be owned by the circuit.
00:21:44So not some other company comes and rents the track and does that.
00:21:48Okay.
00:21:49I got a lot of questions.
00:21:50That was a great, that was a great overview of what the plans are for the Willow Springs
00:21:55International Raceway.
00:21:56I'm going to kind of go back to front.
00:21:58The, the thing you mentioned though, it's interesting to me, it stands out is when you
00:22:03talk about using the future, this facility for a Goodwood Festival of Speed or something
00:22:09along the lines of like a Pebble Beach, I noticed one that neither Goodwood nor Pebble
00:22:17Beach occur on a racetrack and conspicuously the one that does, you didn't mention, which
00:22:22is the Rolex, the, the, the, the motorsports, Monterey Motorsports reunion, RMMR, right.
00:22:27Is that, you know, I, again, Festival of Speed, if you haven't ever been to Festival of Speed,
00:22:31it's one of these like car guy must do like arguably best event like, uh, in the world.
00:22:37And it occurs on some, I like the joke is it's on some rich dudes driveway.
00:22:41I mean, it's Lord March.
00:22:42It's a, what's that?
00:22:43No, no.
00:22:44It's the Duke of Richmond.
00:22:44It's your, it's your largest car show now.
00:22:47And it's, it's like a three mile.
00:22:49No, no.
00:22:50It's barely a mile.
00:22:51Yeah.
00:22:51A mile.
00:22:52It's actually a driveway.
00:22:54Yeah.
00:22:54People.
00:22:54Yeah.
00:22:55And it's.
00:22:55It's a 1.2, three miles.
00:22:57Fast, incredibly dangerous.
00:22:59You know, they've had.
00:22:59Incredibly.
00:23:00Why don't you have to be the motorcycle guys?
00:23:01The survival rate is not so high for those guys who do that.
00:23:05Drag strip is dangerous for a motorcycle.
00:23:06Yeah.
00:23:07Yeah.
00:23:07Yeah.
00:23:07Yeah.
00:23:07But anyways, so, you know, is it the, this future idea of an event, why, why wouldn't
00:23:13it be more like an RMR versus a Rolex versus a.
00:23:17Well, yeah.
00:23:18So there are historic races or there are just races.
00:23:22Yep.
00:23:23And then there's, so Goodwood Festival of Speed is, so again, we've done, I've driven
00:23:26up the hill every year, do it twice a day.
00:23:29It is really a driveway and it is kind of narrow.
00:23:32And I guess it's, but generally the people that are in anything fast have to be qualified.
00:23:36Do you have to be able to drive up?
00:23:37No, they'll let me drive up it.
00:23:39Except for him.
00:23:39You don't have to be that good.
00:23:40I don't have to call it.
00:23:41Well, I've driven it a few times.
00:23:42A little bit of experience, right?
00:23:43But the, the, the, the point or the magic of Goodwood Festival of Speed is it is an outdoor
00:23:49car show, motor show, but things are moving.
00:23:52Things aren't racing.
00:23:53There, there is a timed, you know, thing when they do a little bit of time thing.
00:23:57But the point is you see these fabulous things in motion, both old and new.
00:24:01So it will be a, you know, whatever, a new, the 9-11 or something, but then
00:24:06it'll be, it'll be the car that won Le Mans and whatever, blasting up the hill with, you
00:24:11know, the, the, the driver that won Le Mans at that time.
00:24:14So yeah.
00:24:14That was Derrick Bell.
00:24:15Yeah.
00:24:15Yeah.
00:24:16You, so you, everything, everything, uh, becomes a lot of, you hear it, everything runs.
00:24:20So we run twice a day.
00:24:21So generally everything runs twice a day.
00:24:23Um, uh, it's a four, it's, it's, it's Thursday through Sunday.
00:24:26Right.
00:24:27Generally the program is the same every day.
00:24:29And, um, it, in, in that case, which has really evolved massively, you actually have
00:24:35OEMs like Volvo and, and, and Ford who have set up massive, it's a car show.
00:24:41I went this year.
00:24:42It, it is, uh, the village, the OEM village, whatever they call it, was, I don't really
00:24:47think it was.
00:24:47Yeah.
00:24:48It's enormous.
00:24:48It's really well done.
00:24:49And then, and then they have the, the classic side.
00:24:52Uh, well, it's not just really classic.
00:24:53There's the modern F1 teams and other stuff that bring really special things that aren't,
00:24:57aren't necessarily sort of advertising, uh, you know, or they're, they're not for sale.
00:25:02Um, and it's this terrific combination of all this fabulous stuff, but what it is not
00:25:06is a race.
00:25:07And as much as I, I adore racing and certainly vintage racing, it isn't really for everybody
00:25:13to come and watch, you know, to spend a day watching, uh, right.
00:25:17I mean, if, so I, I raced at Rolex the last few years, you know, it's almost, it's even
00:25:22hard on us and we're there because we're trying to have a good time, but for spectators
00:25:26and it's loud, it's a long day, it's, it, you don't get really breaks.
00:25:31It's always kind of going and you, in order to know what's going on, you, you know, you
00:25:37need to maybe be invested in it and all that we're, we're thinking more like it would be
00:25:42more because we have a track where things can be in motion, cars can be going by, which
00:25:47we tested a tiny, tiny bit, this thing, what we had at this event, which isn't locked in
00:25:52stone for the future is we had the, the, the idea where that cars were going around
00:25:56that weren't racing.
00:25:57We did put two races in there because we, we wanted some programming, which was a B
00:26:02sedan race.
00:26:03Cause they've raced at Willow Springs in, in period.
00:26:07We have, I have a car that was in that.
00:26:09We were in that.
00:26:10And then we had the GT four club boards.
00:26:13I'll give you an idea, but it was, but there were, but there were the CG four race were six
00:26:17laps and the B sedan was, I don't remember 10 laps or something.
00:26:21It wasn't that you had to sit and, you know, be deaf all day long.
00:26:25So Maz is talking, Maz is talking about this grand opening event that happened two weekends
00:26:28ago.
00:26:29Yeah.
00:26:29Yes.
00:26:30And I'm going to give you a, a genius, genius, 100% certified, certified genius idea that I
00:26:37had for Rolex Monterey motorsports reunion, because I talked to a couple of guys, I talked
00:26:44to Ralph Gilles, I talked to Jim Farley, Ralph Gilles, the head of design for Stellantis, Jim
00:26:48Farley, the CEO of Ford, uh, this is two years ago at, um, at RMR.
00:26:53I'm like, you guys should race.
00:26:56You guys should do a charity race in a run what you brung.
00:26:58So Jim, get that GTD out here.
00:27:01Ralph, what do you got?
00:27:02Like, no, I mean, it's probably current something MC 20, you know, I was like, who else, you
00:27:08know, top C suite execs from OEMs do a charity, like time attack around the track, run what
00:27:15you brung, you know, Jim Farley is actually, he's racist.
00:27:19He's legit.
00:27:19So does Ralph.
00:27:20Not, so does Ralph.
00:27:21Does he?
00:27:22I was going to say, not everyone, yeah, not everyone.
00:27:24There's one guy in his company.
00:27:26I'm going to put him on blast.
00:27:27I was like, uh, he's like, I'll smoke Jim.
00:27:30He's like, he's, he races in the, he races a radical series.
00:27:33He's raced a bunch of stuff.
00:27:34He's very fast.
00:27:35He's pretty serious.
00:27:36He hides it all because it's not like Chrysler products.
00:27:38But at the time I was like, well, who else is, who else is quick?
00:27:41And he poo-pooed a bunch of other guys, but he actually mentioned that Carlos Tavares,
00:27:45the outgoing Stellantis CEO, also crazy fast.
00:27:48That dude races vintage formula one cars.
00:27:50So he also, he also has lots of money and apparently is wicked fast.
00:27:53But I think you could totally do this.
00:27:56Certified genius.
00:27:56Cause everybody knows, people know, a lot of those guys know that track and then they
00:28:00got all the design centers.
00:28:01They got, they can easily get cars.
00:28:02What I was going to say was I was there and it was cool.
00:28:06Cause you know, you're just talking to your buddies.
00:28:08It's like any event and you look up and like, oh look, there's a, you know,
00:28:11a Julia going by or whatever.
00:28:12Yeah.
00:28:13That was, it was, it was, that was, that's so, and that's kind of what happens at Goodwood.
00:28:17You, you, you know, you're not watching every single car that goes by at Goodwood.
00:28:21It's too much.
00:28:22And they do them every, I mean, it is, must be every 30 seconds or something.
00:28:27A car is going, going up the hill.
00:28:28So, but imagine the idea of cars in motion, whether they're old or new.
00:28:33And we could have a break for a short race, you know, like we did the GT4 race that we did.
00:28:39And you had, you brought out like, like Dario's there and Jensen Button.
00:28:43So in the race, the race was Marino, Frankie, Jensen Button.
00:28:47Sorry, I meant Marino.
00:28:48Jimmy Johnson, Dario, myself.
00:28:50Right.
00:28:50Oh, cool.
00:28:51And then.
00:28:51How'd you do?
00:28:52Second.
00:28:52Oh, yeah.
00:28:53And we need to make sure if anyone, if I have reminded them, I reminded Jimmy that
00:28:58I finished ahead of him in a race probably eight times.
00:29:01How did they take that?
00:29:02In two weeks.
00:29:02Well, they're never going to hear the end of it.
00:29:03Okay.
00:29:04That's good.
00:29:04But did they, cause those guys, you know, they're, they're all nice and friendly until something like that
00:29:08Well, they were like, look, we're just going to be a chill pace.
00:29:10We're going to go out and have some fun.
00:29:11Oh, and you were like, red mist.
00:29:13And we, in turn, no, I started last.
00:29:15In turn two, Dario came up the inside and Marino hit him.
00:29:20Right in front of me.
00:29:20I was like, these guys aren't screwing around.
00:29:23Right.
00:29:23And so we, so we sort of took off.
00:29:25But, uh, I told Jensen that if I would have beat him, I would never drive a car again.
00:29:31See, that's it.
00:29:32I would hang it up and I'll have always won that race.
00:29:34Jensen Button's pretty good on track.
00:29:36So who, who, who, who, so Jensen won.
00:29:39Jensen won.
00:29:39Good for you though.
00:29:40I think, I think I, yeah.
00:29:42That's great.
00:29:43I'll tell you.
00:29:43Those guys were all cool and calm.
00:29:44I was like sweating and, you know, I meant it.
00:29:48But I've, I've done stuff with Marino, like, you know, there's a point where he stops screwing
00:29:51around and starts.
00:29:52Yeah, it was no joke.
00:29:53Yeah.
00:29:53Yeah.
00:29:53Marino.
00:29:54He won Sebring.
00:29:55Yeah.
00:29:55Yeah.
00:29:55I hope Marino watches this.
00:29:57He's a, cause he's, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a prince of a guy.
00:30:01We were, I was at your event the night before Friday night at the singer, uh, headquarters
00:30:06and I was on my way out and I ran into, um, Marino and we were talking about, we got to
00:30:11talking about our kids and how we had, we had Ferdy, Portia and Rob Smedley in the chair
00:30:17two weeks ago talking about Fat Carding League and how I was thinking to put my son into it.
00:30:22Oh yeah.
00:30:22Luca's in it.
00:30:22And Marino was, Marino was telling me all about it.
00:30:25He's like, Oh, it's great.
00:30:26Highly recommend it.
00:30:27And he's like, cause you know, you can be, you can get into this stuff.
00:30:32And a lot of these parents are just trying to live through their kids and they just become
00:30:35just, they're just the worst type of people.
00:30:37And then now I hear the very next day he hits Dario on the track, which I think he did.
00:30:42It's on video.
00:30:42We have it.
00:30:43Yeah.
00:30:43It's incredible.
00:30:44And so all of a sudden it turned super serious.
00:30:46So I was like, all right, we're, we're in.
00:30:48I mean, I've seen those cats racing at, you know, the Goodwood revival for years.
00:30:51Like they don't play around.
00:30:53Like they go for it.
00:30:54But they are, I mean, they're the most talented drivers in the world.
00:30:57Yeah.
00:30:57They're great.
00:30:57Speaking of revival.
00:30:59And I've also, because I've also been, I think real quick, good for you for beating
00:31:01them.
00:31:02Right.
00:31:02I'm impressed.
00:31:03No, no.
00:31:03And I will remind them.
00:31:05I will remind them.
00:31:07Until they absolutely crush me.
00:31:09It's something else, which I'm sure.
00:31:10I might text Marino right now.
00:31:11I should do.
00:31:13Would you, speaking of.
00:31:15I'm sure he's up.
00:31:17Speaking of Goodwood revival, which is the other big event.
00:31:20And I've also been to another, if you haven't been to Lamar classic, that's awesome.
00:31:24I haven't.
00:31:25Lamar classic is insane.
00:31:26I've heard.
00:31:27Would you guys consider doing some kind of period correct event where you have to come
00:31:31in, everybody, even the spectators has to come in like pre 1970s gear with their cars.
00:31:37And then it becomes.
00:31:38Obviously.
00:31:40Revival is magic, right?
00:31:42It's incredible.
00:31:43The best.
00:31:44It's, but it's certainly earned it over time.
00:31:46Yeah.
00:31:48And so I was there this year.
00:31:49And one thing you think about when you're there is like people actually were here dressed
00:31:53like this.
00:31:54Yeah.
00:31:55Legitimately racing these cars when they were new.
00:31:56And this is how actually everyone dressed.
00:31:58And they were, they were able to sort of revive that.
00:32:00I think it's, I think it's cool.
00:32:01I think it's a, it's a fine line of, you know, sort of being a copycat or making it cheesy.
00:32:06So I think there's something in there, certainly with the, the, the sort of American, uh, car
00:32:11history, um, you know, that, that, that, that was sort of born there and, but I got to
00:32:17tell you, this is so at, you were at our, you were both, I didn't, uh, you were at our
00:32:22shop the Friday night.
00:32:23No, he went, I went, you weren't there.
00:32:25I couldn't make it.
00:32:26I've been to your shop and I couldn't make it that night.
00:32:27So Alan Springer was there and he told me a story, which I had no idea that they tested
00:32:33and developed the nine 17 there.
00:32:34I've heard that, which I had, I was, you know, none of, and all of these conversations
00:32:39we've had and there's been hours and days and months of conversations that's never been
00:32:44brought up ever.
00:32:46And so I found pictures of him looking like he's 20 or something.
00:32:50Yeah.
00:32:50Uh, and a nine 17 10 out at Willow Springs looking not much better than it looks now.
00:32:55I believe they were working on the arrow there.
00:32:58Cause I think that the cars were sort of like, you know, developed, built in Germany, but then
00:33:02they had like all kinds of aerodynamic issues.
00:33:03Well, it was the Vasek Pollock car.
00:33:06Okay.
00:33:07Um, yeah, so it was, or, or, or those cars.
00:33:10I think they tested, I, yeah, I'll show you the pictures.
00:33:12Vasek Pollock, very famous Porsche shop out of Manhattan beach, California, right around
00:33:15the corner from where I live.
00:33:16But yeah, but I think, I think that was a big thing was that like, they had this monster
00:33:20engine, but the cars were hard to drive.
00:33:21And so they had to sort the arrow.
00:33:23And so it's a good track.
00:33:24Cause you can get up in a night, who knows what you can get into at nine 17, like, you know,
00:33:28buck 15 to turn eight or something or a faster.
00:33:30Um, but you know, you know, also like, like, um, for bullet, like Steve McQueen and, um,
00:33:35um, uh, what's his name?
00:33:37The stunt driver, Bill, uh, Hickman.
00:33:40Um, that's where they practice for bullet was at Willow Springs.
00:33:43Yeah.
00:33:43So there's a lot of like,
00:33:45There's a history to lean into.
00:33:46Yeah.
00:33:46I was, I always thought about American cars.
00:33:48It never occurred to me.
00:33:50Right.
00:33:50Right.
00:33:50And nine 17 was.
00:33:51So we can give you ideas on what to do with this piece of real estate.
00:33:56We can become consultants.
00:33:58We're not giving.
00:33:59Well, let's, let's, I just want to circle back to the Cross Harbor capital partner.
00:34:03So Sam was the guy who gave the opening remarks at the event.
00:34:06Was that correct?
00:34:07Uh, at the event on Friday.
00:34:09Uh, yeah, I, well, I introduced him.
00:34:11You introduced him.
00:34:12Yes.
00:34:12And then you got this sweet, um, a gear bag.
00:34:16I think he gave you, uh, any of those guys, the managing partners from Cross Harbor,
00:34:19were any of them like legit, like car guys?
00:34:22Oh my goodness.
00:34:23Sam.
00:34:24I don't know.
00:34:25I think Sam generally sort of doesn't screw around.
00:34:27Like if we need to commit to something, his, his car collection is both, uh, uh, intellectual
00:34:34and growing like quickly.
00:34:37He, he, you know, of course that's why he ended up at Singer.
00:34:39Sure.
00:34:40But, uh, um, no, he's got really cool stuff.
00:34:43Not, it's not all, you know, the, the most expensive thing in the universe sort of the,
00:34:47the, it's really about, he's really into, you know, quality and detail and craftsmanship
00:34:52and, and, and, and things like that and stuff that he loved when he was younger, but also
00:34:56he's not buying a bunch of, you know, hurricanes or whatever.
00:35:00I'm asking a really dumb question.
00:35:02One of the co-founders is a William H. Kramer with a K.
00:35:04It's not like Kramer.
00:35:05No.
00:35:06Okay.
00:35:06Kramer Porsche.
00:35:07So, so Sam and there, and, and, and his team have been sort of immersed.
00:35:12Uh, uh, I'm helping do that a little bit and they're all just, I can tell they're all kind
00:35:18of falling in love with his team who were, you know, who are experts in, you know, private
00:35:23ski resorts and golf and all that stuff had sort of been flown in and dumped into this
00:35:28and doing, doing some, some getting some track time in.
00:35:32And of course they're getting totally, I can see they're right.
00:35:35I hope you took out a pebble as, as research.
00:35:37Well, no, no, they did.
00:35:39They've gone, they came to Goodwood.
00:35:40They came to Goodwood with us.
00:35:41Oh yeah.
00:35:41Nice.
00:35:42No, the point was you need to understand what's possible here.
00:35:44You have to start to get to know it.
00:35:46I mean, it's one thing for me to be able to explain it.
00:35:48Sure.
00:35:48But it's different when you're there.
00:35:49And you gotta see it.
00:35:50Yeah.
00:35:50It's different.
00:35:51You can start to fall in love with it.
00:35:52And we are, you know, at Singer, we're, we're like, I don't know, we're like a disorder
00:35:57for cars or something like, it's hard to tell someone that they need to sort of get,
00:36:04kind of get it.
00:36:05Especially, I mean, Pebble is, is sort of, I, I, I, I still love Pebble, but like
00:36:10there isn't other worldliness to both the Goodwood events where it's like, especially
00:36:15even revival is like, you're kind of, we walk into a dream sequence almost, right?
00:36:19It's incredible.
00:36:19You know?
00:36:20Yeah.
00:36:20It's really, it's really incredible.
00:36:22It's nothing.
00:36:22And people say, is it like Monterey Car Week, which is, I mean, Monterey Car Week, which
00:36:25we always enjoy.
00:36:27We always love.
00:36:27Yeah, it's great.
00:36:28But it's fragmented and everything's a little bit different.
00:36:30I don't know that there's really a tone or a culture necessarily, which of course in
00:36:37these, these British things, it's kind of, you know.
00:36:39Yeah.
00:36:40Very monoculture.
00:36:41Yeah.
00:36:41But, but like, you know, the revival really is like, and again, what's crazy about the
00:36:45revival, remember, cars is like about a third of it.
00:36:48If you go across the pedestrian bridge, it's like vintage dresses and stuff like that.
00:36:53It has nothing to do with cars.
00:36:54I'm going to give the worst analogy ever.
00:36:56It's a, it's a Ren Faire for cars.
00:36:59It is a Ren Faire for cars.
00:37:00It's a good analogy.
00:37:01It's a Ren Faire.
00:37:01Yeah.
00:37:02Renaissance Faire.
00:37:03Oh.
00:37:03Beautiful dresser.
00:37:04Yeah, it is.
00:37:05But you can imagine that, that has, that has earned its place through time and expansion
00:37:11and commitment and all that.
00:37:13That's not like.
00:37:14In the case of Ren Faire for centuries.
00:37:15You just do it overnight.
00:37:16And the multi-day car event thing that we, we know that that is a, that will need to grow
00:37:21over years and years and years and become a staple.
00:37:24So you don't, you don't just write that down and do it the next day.
00:37:28I was going to ask you the event, the relaunch of Willow.
00:37:31Like I, I went, I have my opinions, but how did, how did you guys view it?
00:37:35How was it success?
00:37:37Well, so we didn't have, we, it was, so we're now planning next year's.
00:37:42That was 90 days.
00:37:44Yeah.
00:37:44About 90 days of planning and, and it was kind of slapping it together.
00:37:48Um, uh, so it was, it was, um, I think it had surprisingly few failures.
00:37:56I think we were expecting a little more to fall apart.
00:37:58The traffic situation was, well, we also didn't expect that many people, if I'm perfectly
00:38:02honest.
00:38:03How many people did you expect and how many people showed up?
00:38:05That's as good.
00:38:06Well, it was like we permitted for 5,000 because you got to pick a number.
00:38:11Right.
00:38:11And, and we didn't realize that it would be a problem because more were, we, we, all
00:38:16of a sudden it was like, can you get me in?
00:38:17Can we get, can a ton of more people want to, but the answer was categorically no, because
00:38:21this is, this is a, you know, we had to get permitted with the fire department and sort
00:38:26of all of that.
00:38:27Um, so you, would you be able to support that many people with food and kind of, you know,
00:38:32facilities, everything, right.
00:38:35Bathrooms and so on.
00:38:36Um, so, um, I think it was, and of course I've had, I mean, constant review, you know, not
00:38:43reviews, but people reaching out that who absolutely had a great time.
00:38:47Um, I don't think it's just the people who, who know Willow Springs and say things like
00:38:51I've never seen that.
00:38:52I don't think there's ever been that many people.
00:38:54There's never been that many people.
00:38:55I walked down that main straight or paddock or whatever, like, cause I was, I got, you
00:38:59know, we, we, we, we helicoptered in it as you do.
00:39:01And we got delivered by a shuttle van to the VIP area and Brittany.
00:39:05Wait, where did the helicopter land?
00:39:07Uh, kind of by horse thief.
00:39:09Horse thief mile.
00:39:09There's a, there's a, um, yeah.
00:39:11And you hired, um, um, my friend Brittany to be your, uh, operations.
00:39:15She's amazing.
00:39:16She's incredible.
00:39:17And so she got it.
00:39:18I saw her, I'm like, we need our wristbands.
00:39:19So she got us the wristbands.
00:39:21And so, you know, I was kind of like, eh, walking around a little bit, but then I turned
00:39:23finally and saw the mate where everyone actually was.
00:39:26Yeah.
00:39:26Like it was 5,000 people standing on, on the front straight basically.
00:39:32Yeah.
00:39:32And then, well, the team, so the cross, the cross Harbor team who really are the Willow
00:39:37Springs team, right?
00:39:38And the Willow Springs is with Brittany.
00:39:40Now there's a, uh, someone, uh, uh, uh, Jen who started the Willow Springs and the guy
00:39:46named Rick, who, who's really responsible for a lot of them on the ground.
00:39:49You know, Jen, Jen, um, she was at PECLA.
00:39:52Yes.
00:39:52Yeah.
00:39:53Yes.
00:39:53She's fantastic.
00:39:54Yeah.
00:39:54Oh, I'm blanking her last name.
00:39:56G.I.
00:39:56Jen.
00:39:56Yeah.
00:39:56Yeah.
00:39:56Yeah.
00:39:57She's great.
00:39:57Oh, she's awesome.
00:39:58Oh yeah.
00:39:58Yeah.
00:39:58So Willow Springs is getting its own team.
00:40:01Oh, that's a solid team.
00:40:02Building a business.
00:40:03And more people are coming, but the, the cross Harbor, uh, guys, um, are, are really the
00:40:09people who pushed this forward.
00:40:11Yeah.
00:40:11So the singer part was obviously at our event.
00:40:14And then we really focused on, um, um, that area, the kind of VIP area where we're going
00:40:19to host a bunch of our customers.
00:40:21Great bathrooms.
00:40:22Yeah.
00:40:22Bathrooms.
00:40:22Which I've never said about Willow Springs.
00:40:25It's not, it's, it's, it's, they've built some new ones and man.
00:40:29It's funny because when, when I first, when we first started, you know, working together
00:40:32us and cross Harbor, we were talking about, you know, racetracks and what the experience
00:40:37is like.
00:40:37And I, I have told them is it, it's, it's not necessarily that easy for spectators, people
00:40:42or even racers sometimes racetracks can be kind of harsh environments, but, and I was
00:40:45like, number one, bathrooms, clean, accessible.
00:40:49They're like, it's kind of a low bar.
00:40:50And I was like, it's a really big deal.
00:40:53I was, I mean, I was, especially if you had a track for 10 hours.
00:40:56I was at a lemons race back in about almost 20 years ago and all the toilets backed up
00:41:03and overflowed.
00:41:04And it was the only bathrooms.
00:41:05They're always gross.
00:41:06And no, this is the worst because people still had to go.
00:41:08It was a 24 hour race.
00:41:09It was, it was like, yeah, we get the picture.
00:41:11Yeah.
00:41:12No, no, no, I wouldn't have to describe it.
00:41:13It's Jennifer Nicole, Jennifer Nicole Malacarne.
00:41:16She's, she's the portrait experience.
00:41:17Yeah.
00:41:17She's awesome.
00:41:19How many people, what's the theoretical maximum you could have, you think, at this, at, at,
00:41:24at Willow?
00:41:27I mean, a lot, a lot more than that.
00:41:28Like next year, would you come for 15,000 people?
00:41:31Yeah, of course.
00:41:31You could, you could, you could easily.
00:41:33You have the acreage.
00:41:34If you're prepared.
00:41:34Yeah.
00:41:34But you have to, that's, you know.
00:41:36Yeah.
00:41:36Food.
00:41:36Traffic.
00:41:37Entry.
00:41:38Parking.
00:41:38Being easier.
00:41:39Multiple access points.
00:41:40We're already reviewing like.
00:41:41Sure.
00:41:41What would it take?
00:41:42And with enough time.
00:41:43And if you can get in this case, sorry, the, you know, the sheriff's department and everyone
00:41:47else to kind of participate with managing, you know, some of the outside stuff.
00:41:51So if you're prepared, it can, it can handle a lot.
00:41:54I think.
00:41:54That was the only negative I heard at all was just getting in.
00:41:57Like, you know, yeah, that was a, that was a, yeah, there were people that waited for
00:42:01a long time.
00:42:01But that, no, no, that many people have never tried to go there.
00:42:04Like, it's never.
00:42:04Yeah.
00:42:05It was, it was the, it was the sort of first, first run at it.
00:42:08And I would say we didn't have any significant failures.
00:42:11I think a lot of people had a great time.
00:42:12The people that, that were in us, as kind of partners, um, they seem to reflect very positively
00:42:18of it.
00:42:18I mean, you know, one test is we had a great time, you know, so, and we're, cause we're
00:42:23the ones that are stressed, you know, like if you're hosting people at your house and everyone
00:42:27seemed to be cool.
00:42:28And, you know, all of our friends, the drivers, Ferdy, everyone seemed to just have a blast
00:42:34at, you know, real quick, real quick, we got a lot, a lot of questions, but I was just
00:42:40saying, cause it was a good event.
00:42:42The biggest cynic I know in, in cars, I'll leave his name out of it, but he said, I wasn't
00:42:47there.
00:42:48Yeah.
00:42:48The other biggest cynic said like, this was an awesome event.
00:42:51Like he said, he said, it sucked waiting 90 minutes to get in.
00:42:55And, but I was, I was reading the rest of his posts and I was expecting that he's just
00:42:58going to, you know, just crap all over it.
00:43:00And he's like, it was awesome event.
00:43:01It was so cool to see that many people celebrating LA's car culture.
00:43:04Yeah.
00:43:05And that's, that was my takeaway from it.
00:43:06It was, it was, it was cool.
00:43:09And I think there's, look, there's the sort of death of the car show.
00:43:11I think the convention center car show is, and then, you know, the cars and coffees
00:43:16and stuff, which seemed to be increasingly difficult and for good reason, I think in
00:43:20some cases.
00:43:21So I think there is an, you know, there's a, people are asking for this sort of thing.
00:43:26So it was pretty cool.
00:43:26Hopefully, you know, over, over the years we can deliver something better and better.
00:43:31Um, I want to just dig in one more, a little bit more into the pillar.
00:43:35So there's four pillars.
00:43:36We covered them, the singer club.
00:43:39Um, I was at the event on Friday night before, and you showed on the big screen, um, some,
00:43:46other plans.
00:43:48I don't know if you can talk about some of those with the, for the site.
00:43:53Yeah.
00:43:54Uh, yeah.
00:43:55I mean, the, what you saw, if I remember correctly is, uh, we had a little bit of a before and
00:44:01after rendering.
00:44:01So an image of Willow, well, actually it was a little fair.
00:44:05It's not really Willow now.
00:44:06It was Willow pre the streets.
00:44:09So streets has been completely redone and that wasn't in that image, but the, it was a
00:44:15rendering of, uh, the new, the, so the, the, the whole site, um, some of it is very legitimate,
00:44:22like the, the, the, the, the racetrack, um, uh, configurations, the, the, the curbing,
00:44:30the runoff sort of all that is actually for the big track for the big.
00:44:33Well, it was actually both in the image, um, was legit.
00:44:37The, the other stuff is a lot more proposed, like the, you know, to have a, uh, pit lane
00:44:43garages, you know, indoor pit lane garages, like you have, have at Laguna, um, you know,
00:44:48with hospitality and all that above is stuck on there, but you know, is it in the right
00:44:51spot?
00:44:52Is it, you know, it's, it's just sort of suggest where, you know, where that could go, what
00:44:56that could look like, um, and some of the other facilities on there, every, the, the,
00:45:01the, the buildings are, you know, um, an approximation and the, the track is, was, was
00:45:08for real.
00:45:09Okay.
00:45:09So, and that was designed by Alex, Alex Wurtz.
00:45:12Yeah.
00:45:12Which we should talk about.
00:45:13Alex Wurtz, former, former Formula One driver.
00:45:16I was making the comment to somebody, who was I talking to?
00:45:19Oh, I was explaining to Sung, uh, Sung Kang, Sung Kang, who's been on the podcast.
00:45:24He was also at the event, so we were, he was sort of, whoa, it's all this, who are
00:45:27these people?
00:45:27And just shot a movie there.
00:45:28Shot a movie.
00:45:29He was probably the one, the last productions to shoot at Willow, uh, streets before the
00:45:33renovation.
00:45:35Um, I think you guys had made the announcement of Alex Wurtz and I was like, well, having
00:45:39a guy like Alex Wurtz to design a racetrack is like having Jack Nicklaus do like a golf course.
00:45:43It's like, it's like a famous pro who's done this before can then put his thumbprint, his
00:45:49approval on, on this track.
00:45:51And then the fact that it's, uh, FIA GT2, uh, certified is incredible.
00:45:57Well, the other thing is we have very close to us, Jensen, um, right.
00:46:00He's an old, old friend of mine, but is, is now formally involved in the, in, in the
00:46:05thing.
00:46:05He's also, he lives locally.
00:46:06Yeah.
00:46:07He's great.
00:46:07Um, so he has obviously a lot of experience.
00:46:10Jimmy Johnson, uh, Dario and Marino are very, they're just close.
00:46:15I mean, Jensen's actually, uh, uh, an, an ambassador.
00:46:18And Marino is, uh, involved with Marino's involved in, in, in singer.
00:46:22Yes.
00:46:23He, he, he, he runs our, our development, right.
00:46:26Uh, development, uh, development driving.
00:46:28So he and I do all the driving.
00:46:29He does obviously a lot more than I do.
00:46:31Um, and has sliding, the sliding shots.
00:46:34Uh, we either Chris Harris, uh, that's sort of all he can do.
00:46:39Right.
00:46:40He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't watch this.
00:46:44He doesn't watch this.
00:46:44He's the last thing to do.
00:46:45And, uh, a little bit of Marino is not a particularly slidey guy, uh, and, and less so, less so myself.
00:46:51But, um, uh, so, but there's a lot of information from those guys that is really valuable.
00:46:57Sure.
00:46:58A lot of experience.
00:46:59It's really valuable.
00:46:59Of course, the speedway, because we actually operate the track and understand what it takes
00:47:04and how you extract a car if it's been crashed and sort of, there's a lot to consider besides
00:47:09just if it's fun or not, or, or, or, or, or whatever.
00:47:13So there's this real depth of experience with those folks.
00:47:16It's a good group.
00:47:17Yeah.
00:47:17It's a great group.
00:47:18But Alex, the Alex, when he's designing, it's like, he's, there's math in there in terms
00:47:23of corner speed and how much room you need for runoff and what the, whatever you're going
00:47:27to run into is.
00:47:28And it's not just, you know, this looks cool.
00:47:31Yeah.
00:47:31There there's engineering.
00:47:33And I was going to say, I mean, I said, I've driven those tracks.
00:47:35Like I, I have been to tracks where I'm like, why is there, you know, every corner, you
00:47:40know, downhill decreasing radius blind.
00:47:43And they go, Oh, just like, you know, we had 38 of us bought this track and we, we all
00:47:46wanted a really cool corner.
00:47:47And it's like, it's undriveable.
00:47:49All you do is hit the brake pedal.
00:47:50Like, you want to go fast.
00:47:51It's a track, you know, been to those.
00:47:53Yeah.
00:47:53And look, the idea, the idea, which is, which is not easy to do and certainly not, not guaranteed.
00:47:59But I, um, I think there are some really iconic tracks in the world that there are, look, there
00:48:05are race tracks where you can go and race or drive fast, but there's some that you kind
00:48:09of remember forever, not just because of the cool experience, but I would say Laguna for
00:48:13sure.
00:48:13Spa.
00:48:14Yeah.
00:48:14Some of these things that really are very special experiences.
00:48:17There's even cart tracks, like the Bahrain circuit cart track is like, if you, and you
00:48:23can just go rent a cart or whatever, but it will, it sort of changes your life in a sense
00:48:26that you always remember going there.
00:48:28So part of the idea here is that that's what this is.
00:48:31We're really thinking about what that means, that it's not just sheer terror.
00:48:35It's not just frustrating.
00:48:36So it's not, you don't, you don't also don't feel completely outclassed if you drive it,
00:48:40like, unless you're Jensen or whatever, you can't, you know, have a good lap.
00:48:46I was just going to say, sorry, I was going to say, cause Spa, uh, the Bahrain actually
00:48:50they have one track, like there's racing there.
00:48:52So are you guys looking to bring in a series or it's not, it's not at the top of the list.
00:48:57It definitely needs to be able to, um, there's no, there's no interest in the big F1 type
00:49:04of stuff.
00:49:04So FIA one or F1 tracks, FIA two is anything but F1.
00:49:10I don't think, I don't think it's just the, whether or not in, you know, in theory you
00:49:15could, I mean, cause they have street races, right?
00:49:17Race, race a formula one car there.
00:49:18It's really the, I think the, the, the, the size of the events, the politics and the nonsense
00:49:23of those, those are very different structure businesses, but could you have an IMSA race?
00:49:28That's what I was going to say.
00:49:28An SRO race?
00:49:29Certainly.
00:49:30I mean, you should be able to have a vintage race of fabulous vintage race.
00:49:33Yeah.
00:49:33Um, the series, uh, uh, it needs to be able to, it's not like the business is counting
00:49:39on it.
00:49:39That would be super cool.
00:49:40Yeah.
00:49:41That would be, you know, an IMSA race would be so cool.
00:49:42But they can get, you know, you do have to consider the size of the crowds and can, you
00:49:47know, you need, the infrastructure needs to be able to support.
00:49:50You need grandstands.
00:49:50Cars moving in and out, grandstands and all that stuff.
00:49:52Yeah.
00:49:52And pits.
00:49:53It's not, it's not the top of the list, but it's, it's part of the, it's possible.
00:49:56Well, and it's part of the, uh, the, uh, you know, programming for the future is
00:50:02things that, that it can support.
00:50:03I want to ask two more questions about the track and then get into you personally and what, and how
00:50:08you got here.
00:50:08Well, yeah, we should probably ask that.
00:50:10Yeah.
00:50:10But, um, so will, will all of the, the tracks that have Willow Springs, the, the broader
00:50:19facility has been known for, will they all be revived or renovated?
00:50:22Like horse thief mile was like really popular with the drift crowd.
00:50:25Is that going to be, there's, there's certainly obviously big willow and streets, uh, streets,
00:50:31by the way, if you haven't been since it's, it's so much fun now, like it's absolutely a
00:50:36blast.
00:50:36You don't, you sort of remove the fear factor.
00:50:39Um, the others are still kind of like trying to figure out how, how, how to treat them.
00:50:45Horse thief miles is very cool, but it's on a really steep grade.
00:50:48That's why it's cool.
00:50:49Yeah.
00:50:50Well, I mean, you, you, you know, you, you know, could you actually have, you know,
00:50:53racing there converted to a track issue is some of the runoff is like running, running
00:50:58off a cliff.
00:50:59So that's still, that's still, I think, um, trying to figure out how to, how to treat
00:51:03that.
00:51:03A lot of, it's actually used for a lot of photography.
00:51:05Yes.
00:51:05Still photography.
00:51:06Yeah.
00:51:06It's really beautiful there.
00:51:07And it, and it, and it, and commercials.
00:51:10Yeah.
00:51:10Yeah.
00:51:11I shot, I shot a, a commercial for, I can't remember what it was for, but it was Jeff
00:51:14Swart.
00:51:15Like he was driving some car and I was driving the camera car, chasing him around.
00:51:18He's a part of the, the history of that place.
00:51:20Oh, yeah.
00:51:21He's been there a long time.
00:51:22What a great dude.
00:51:23Um, but, uh, and then some of the others are, are, you know, they're staying until
00:51:27we sort of figure out, you know, whether, whether or not that makes sense.
00:51:31Um, how about, how about an off-road?
00:51:32I was going to say, well, I mean, we're dying to do an off-road, you know, where and
00:51:36how, you know, and, and sort of defining off-road is, is sort of tricky.
00:51:42There's, you know, there's a car that can go on dirt, you know, a rally car or something.
00:51:46Then there's side-by-sides and there's real off-roads.
00:51:50But you have the acreage and I mean.
00:51:51And you got a mountain.
00:51:52Yeah.
00:51:53Yeah.
00:51:53Yeah.
00:51:53So that's, uh, it's something that we definitely want to do.
00:51:56I think you have to be, you know, uh, quite careful.
00:51:59We can figure out what, you know, how to, how you define that, right.
00:52:02What, what vehicles, who can do it?
00:52:04How do you, you know, how do you manage it?
00:52:05But yeah, for sure.
00:52:06It's absolutely.
00:52:08I mean, it's.
00:52:08Duke of Richmond has that rally stage up in the driveway there.
00:52:12Closer to home, right?
00:52:13Like Ford has gone after Jeep in a big way and set up their own Bronco X, you know, all
00:52:18of these experiences.
00:52:20I mean, they live in Johnson Valley.
00:52:22Ford.
00:52:22Why not put one closer?
00:52:25It's there's the, there's the sort of rock crawling version of off-road and the, and the
00:52:28slow stuff and the technical stuff, which, which is a skill in itself.
00:52:31And then there's like the, the, the rally, which is probably my favorite thing.
00:52:35Right.
00:52:35So the, the, the, the rally stuff, the big desert racing, uh, which, which I've done in
00:52:41the past is, uh, not for there.
00:52:44Right.
00:52:44You need more land.
00:52:45You need a lot, a lot of room.
00:52:46About a thousand miles like south of the border.
00:52:48Yeah.
00:52:48Yeah.
00:52:49So it's definitely one, something we want to do.
00:52:51Um, and we've all, we've all talked about, but you know, how and where exactly.
00:52:56Yeah.
00:52:57Um, the asphalt tracks are easier to figure out.
00:53:00Yeah.
00:53:00Last track question for me, you met, cause you mentioned Laguna Seca and the Bahrain
00:53:04carting circuit as iconic.
00:53:06And of course, Laguna Seca is iconic for the corkscrew.
00:53:09Are you planning with Big Willow to, to make an iconic corner or turn or show?
00:53:16That one.
00:53:16A terrible turn nine.
00:53:17Right.
00:53:19I, I, I, it, uh, it, uh, through the, through, it's not just through the changes.
00:53:24I mean, part of the, what makes those things great is how you flow through the circuit.
00:53:28It's not just that there's one good corner and the rest of it sort of sucks.
00:53:31It's, can you get a rhythm through there, you know, and then it's, it's easy to go out
00:53:36and pick up pace and challenge yourself.
00:53:39Uh, and, uh, there are turns where, you know, where passing is available.
00:53:42Sometimes some circuits you just can't pack.
00:53:44It's like a freight train, right?
00:53:46Everyone's just, just qualify.
00:53:48And that's, that's it.
00:53:49Um, so the, the, uh, the designs, Alex's designs really allow for,
00:53:54all of that.
00:53:56There's some discussion around some elevation change that, that may bring some of what I'm
00:54:02discussing, but it's a little bit early.
00:54:04I can, I can consult on one corner that could use it.
00:54:06Yeah.
00:54:07Yeah.
00:54:08Yeah.
00:54:08I mean, there's the, the sort of turn three and four that they call it the Omega, the thing
00:54:12that sort of goes up the hill.
00:54:13It's quite slow in almost anything.
00:54:15Um, and then as you go down and over, you know, you go over the hill while you lose, you
00:54:21sort of go a little bit way, right?
00:54:22A little bit weightless.
00:54:23But then it's just like super fast, you know, it's fat and into eight.
00:54:28And that's for us, it's what happens after that.
00:54:31And can that be a fabulous flow and rhythm?
00:54:33Can there be some elevation in there?
00:54:34And then you go back to, you know, sort of eight and nine or, or, or whatever.
00:54:38But I like how you're saying flow because like, you know, like corkscrew while iconic
00:54:42to me, it's like the least interesting corner to drive.
00:54:45It's just, it's a, it's a giant breaking zone and then you fall down the hill.
00:54:49You can't see over it.
00:54:50That's part of the game.
00:54:51I think like six, that's a quarter, you know?
00:54:54Five, that's a quarter.
00:54:55I think it's weirdly, I don't think it's hard at all to get the corkscrew right.
00:54:59No, the corkscrew's not hard at all.
00:55:00It's the turn after that to me is like.
00:55:02The turn after that is uncharted.
00:55:03Like, where do you go?
00:55:04Yeah, we have a lot of options there.
00:55:05It's the best home field advantage for American racers who know that track because all the
00:55:10Europeans are like, what the hell is this?
00:55:12Look, you kind of generally look to your left, fall down the hill, make a right.
00:55:16They don't know that.
00:55:17They don't know that at speed.
00:55:19Like, I went there in 2006 for MotoGP and I remember the interviews with all the MotoGPs
00:55:24that this is insane.
00:55:26Like, motorcycle is a different challenge.
00:55:29That would be insane.
00:55:30Yeah, there's something to, like I said, a track that has rhythm, a track that has,
00:55:36that's obviously interesting to see.
00:55:38A track, it's important that I think, especially if you're, you know, new or an amateur, you
00:55:42should understand what you're supposed to do.
00:55:45Sometimes, like, you don't really know where, certainly at Big Willow now, where do you
00:55:49turn in?
00:55:50Oh, eight and nine are nuts.
00:55:52Yeah.
00:55:52And it's like, it's like.
00:55:53So it's three and four is the same sort of.
00:55:56Yeah.
00:55:57Not totally sure where you're, what you're supposed to do here, right?
00:55:59I was, I was, when I was prepping for Pike's Peak, we were, we were doing some,
00:56:02some racing at Big Willow before I was with my coach and he was like, do you
00:56:07see the water tower across and like, he meant like across the highway, not a highway, but
00:56:12across the road.
00:56:12Yes.
00:56:13I remember that.
00:56:13Trying to see that.
00:56:14I'm like, it's kind of hazy today.
00:56:15I can't, you know, like, what am I aiming at?
00:56:17Like, give me something.
00:56:18Yeah.
00:56:19That's the thing.
00:56:20I think, I think there, there, there are visual cues, but also just the way it feels,
00:56:24you know, how you're weighted in the car and certain things can be really thrilling and
00:56:29not necessarily just like, I wasn't fast because I was willing, you know, because I was
00:56:34willing to risk my life or like not make it home to dinner or something.
00:56:36And that's why I wasn't slow.
00:56:38That, that, that really shouldn't be the case.
00:56:39That is the case at some other circuits that are just super fast.
00:56:42Oh yeah.
00:56:42So how'd you get into all of this?
00:56:45Like, what's your story in terms of getting to this point where now you're building racetracks,
00:56:51experiences, uh, being involved with very special exotic vehicles?
00:56:58Like what's the, what's the Moz life story?
00:57:00So I met Rob Dickinson when he was doing the first car in 2000, 2010.
00:57:05And we were like instant friends.
00:57:07I mean, he's easy to be friends with.
00:57:10Um, it's not always easy to be friends with, but he's, you know, fascinating, fascinating
00:57:15guy.
00:57:16Easy to make friends with initially.
00:57:17Fascinating guy doing, doing a fascinating thing at the time.
00:57:20Right.
00:57:20And, um, it really kind of caught fire.
00:57:23The early days of Singer were, you know, he mocked up a car, uh, beautifully and he, he
00:57:29had, you know, there are those details and those nuances that make something, you know,
00:57:35more right than, than other things.
00:57:36And he has that weird ability to do that time and time again.
00:57:41Um, and, uh, I helped with the first car and it was, I was here to, to, to, it was in
00:57:48the tech business here to start a thing, move to Santa Monica to start a new, new business.
00:57:53Um, um, from Detroit.
00:57:54And, uh, I don't know, I was just hot rodding Porsches with a buddy of mine and it was, it
00:58:01was cool.
00:58:01It didn't feel like a business to me, but it was captivating to me as well as it was
00:58:06to other people.
00:58:07Um, and we had distinctly had a conversation that we, we thought we might do five of them.
00:58:12Uh, ever didn't have five customers, but that we could get to get to five and it would
00:58:17be like, we climbed Mount Everest or whatever.
00:58:19And Rob had a bigger vision than that, but I was, you know, quite focused.
00:58:25Well, I was focused on my, I met him in a parking lot at, at, uh, at what was Singer
00:58:31at the time, which was weird.
00:58:33Singer was, um, in the corner of a building with, I don't know, storage and some other
00:58:39stuff.
00:58:39It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't really a company.
00:58:41And you saw it because there was a cool car there and you were both, you were both
00:58:43walking at it.
00:58:44I was trying to think of how I actually found them.
00:58:47Um, I, you know, there's this orange car had gone around sort of online at the time.
00:58:51It was almost Singer car.
00:58:52Yeah.
00:58:53The sort of advent of, of, uh, of that happening.
00:58:57And I was out in that area.
00:59:00There was a, uh, uh, uh, I needed, I was trying to find some Porsche parts and there was a guy
00:59:06selling Porsche parts, like a block away.
00:59:08And I don't know, I thought this was 20, 2010, I barely remember.
00:59:13Yeah.
00:59:13Um, and, or I saw something or whatever.
00:59:16I ended up in this parking lot.
00:59:17I, I mean, I think we, we were talking for a couple of hours and I ended up coming back
00:59:20the next day and that was really how I, how I met Rob anyway.
00:59:24And, uh, and then, you know, once Singer got to, to, to five orders, you would never
00:59:30guess it would have gotten to 10.
00:59:32Right.
00:59:32Uh, it wasn't like there was a marketing team and all that.
00:59:35It was like Rob and me and a couple, two people, maybe three people.
00:59:39How did you become like an employee or, or, or a founder or whatever?
00:59:43Um, so I, so I, I, I just sort of helped and hung out and I got to design basically the
00:59:48964 based car.
00:59:50The first two cars were on a G series and I, I had a 993 at the time.
00:59:56Uh, and I knew everything about it.
00:59:58Uh, and I, I said, well, you know, this should be on a 964.
01:00:03What do you do?
01:00:03And also 964 is basically free.
01:00:05I bought the first one for $12,000 and, uh, it had 80,000 miles.
01:00:10He had heard that, I think from some other people.
01:00:12And we said, all right, let's do the next car in a 964.
01:00:14This is how by hand it was.
01:00:16There was tooling and other things that had to be considered.
01:00:18So I got to do that and put them in, and, and basically kind of spec and, and put together,
01:00:25uh, you know, a thing with Cosworth and Ohlins and all these suppliers that I thought would
01:00:30be very cool for, you know, one car and then for another one.
01:00:33So it was, it was an outlet for me.
01:00:36Um, but I wasn't involved.
01:00:37I was starting a tech business, which I did.
01:00:39I raised capital, you know, from Silicon Valley and built a business in Santa Monica.
01:00:44And as singer kept on, like, we both sort of grew our businesses.
01:00:47I was always very close to singer and I've known Deb since that time, which he was around
01:00:52since that, since that, since that time.
01:00:54And, and it really kind of was like, eh, then it got to 10 orders, but you would never say
01:00:58it's going to go to 30.
01:00:59Right.
01:01:00And you would have been laughed out of the room.
01:01:01Right.
01:01:02Um, and, uh, at one point, I think I want to say 2015, 2016, um, I had always wanted to
01:01:11do like a super lightweight version of what was then, what, um, uh, you know, the, the
01:01:19cars we re re-imagined had a formula.
01:01:22We did the same thing to, to, to, to, to every car singer did the same thing to every car.
01:01:25And I wanted to do a super forward version of it, like really engineer it to take weight
01:01:31out, um, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the spirit of old, old Porsches and things.
01:01:37And, uh, it kind of came up with a formula for that and how we might get it done.
01:01:43And, uh, uh, I, it was, there was an opportunity to get out of my tech business at the time.
01:01:51And, you know, Rob and I sat down and I said, look, I'll, I think this needs to be a separate
01:01:56business and needs financing.
01:01:57And singer was, again, because, you know, you, singer couldn't anticipate the amount
01:02:06of business it would get, like it wasn't really prepared for me.
01:02:09So it was very busy.
01:02:10Singer was very, very busy.
01:02:12I wasn't running it.
01:02:13I was sort of watching it, you know, be super big.
01:02:16Every time I walked in there, I was like, Ooh, this is a lot of, a lot of, a lot of tension
01:02:19and a lot of business stuff.
01:02:20So I want to do this other thing.
01:02:22And I figured we should do this in England, uh, with, ultimately with Williams F1 and
01:02:28that's what became such a talent pool for that sort of engineering center of the universe
01:02:32for low volume car manufacturing.
01:02:35And then of course, motorsport.
01:02:37Yeah.
01:02:37Um, and we had met some people, uh, along the way, Rob and I, that eventually led us to
01:02:42this sort of thing.
01:02:43Actually, Marina was, was part of that back then.
01:02:46So, um, so what ultimately became DLS was really a separate operation.
01:02:52It was a separate, you were running that.
01:02:54And I was running that.
01:02:55I was, I was, I was, I was a part of that.
01:02:56I actually ran it out of my, out of my house, really out of my house, uh, in my living room
01:03:02and grow at formula one, uh, at Williams F1.
01:03:05Um, I would go sort of back and forth and then Singer was this growing and separate,
01:03:10completely separate operations.
01:03:11So we had our own team and our own finances and all of that.
01:03:14And then it, it grew and went faster and bigger than we expected.
01:03:19So in 2019, we decided to put the two together.
01:03:23Um, and then I became the CEO January 2nd of 2020.
01:03:28And then in February, we had timing.
01:03:30February we had COVID.
01:03:31This is awesome.
01:03:32The first month.
01:03:33If I can pause here, um, you sound very modest at one point in this conversation, you had
01:03:38an opportunity to exit your business.
01:03:41Is that like, you got a big payout and you got to take, I mean, it was, I don't know how
01:03:48to put it, it was, I was running a tech business.
01:03:52I love putting together a group of people and going and doing things.
01:03:57It was a fabulous culture, terrific bunch of people who, who, who we, we all still hang
01:04:02out weirdly after the company sold at end of 2016, but I didn't care at all about what
01:04:08we were doing.
01:04:09And I was staring at cars all day long.
01:04:12What's the, we were, we were mathematically calculating the highest performing real estate
01:04:16agent relative to an address.
01:04:18I mean, Oh, wow.
01:04:20Right.
01:04:20But if you want to sell your, want to sell your house, we would determine who's going
01:04:24to sell this house fastest for the most money based on math.
01:04:26Like, like money ball.
01:04:28I mean, yeah.
01:04:28I had another career before cars and I just did the same thing where you just, but that's
01:04:32not, that wasn't the, in order to do that, we had to mine historical home sale data
01:04:36from 400 MLS systems across the country.
01:04:38And that's what we built almost by accident.
01:04:41So, and that's really what sold to a quick and loans, but all I did, I mean, I'm, I'm
01:04:46sitting there doing this and really looking at cars all day long and hanging out with
01:04:51Rob and team as much as I could and thinking about this other thing.
01:04:55So your browser was one tab on, on MLS and I've seen my office, like helmets and the thing.
01:05:02And so it was, it was like, I was dying to do it.
01:05:05There was an opportunity to go and do this.
01:05:08Um, uh, open house, which is the name of the company could have continued and gone
01:05:12and become probably really, really big.
01:05:16Um, so it, it, it was, it was fine, but it could have been massive, but I don't know
01:05:21that it could have been massive with me doing it because I just, for, I would say for us,
01:05:26not just for me, for me and Rob and probably a bunch of people that are there.
01:05:29Like, this is like oxygen for us.
01:05:32Like, I don't know, this is not, this is not a job or a gig.
01:05:35It was like 24 hours a day.
01:05:38Um, and it still is.
01:05:40Um, and it, it's, it's, I would argue it's grown as a result.
01:05:45I don't know that anyone's more committed on earth or worked harder than Rob.
01:05:48Um, and, and myself at, at this.
01:05:52So, but the, the, I mean, that really resonates the oxygen thing because again, I, you know,
01:05:55I had a different career before I was doing this.
01:05:58I was on a, uh, guest on a podcast the other day and the host said like, you know, Hey,
01:06:02I know we've only been talking about cars.
01:06:04Like, I'm sure there's other things you're interested in.
01:06:06And I was like, yeah, there are, but I can talk about cars 24 seven.
01:06:10I actually never get bored talking about cars.
01:06:12Like it just doesn't happen now.
01:06:14And in fact, one of the, you've been discussing this lately, it like, if it's like my family
01:06:21have had to go along with it, you know, my wife, my kids, my house looks like, like it's
01:06:27sort of infects your whole, you know, as a community and I can spot other people who
01:06:32are similarly, even if it's a different, like a different, you know, or even type of
01:06:38thing.
01:06:38I've met, I met like a winemaker a few weeks ago that was like, ah, he's like us.
01:06:42Like this guy is 24 hours a day, you know, not because, not because it's a business.
01:06:47Right.
01:06:48Um, the business to some degree for us was, well, I mean, there wasn't, I mean, we never,
01:06:53we've never placed an advertisement that we'd never understood the amount of people who would
01:06:59show up.
01:07:00We just didn't, weren't really able to forecast that.
01:07:03Now we can know more science and we have to, because, you know, it's irresponsible not
01:07:08to, but, um, singer was always sort of victim to more.
01:07:13Sales than we knew would show up.
01:07:15If you were spending ad dollars and it was say, I don't know, $10,000 to get a customer
01:07:19and you had $100,000, then, you know, you're going to have 10 customers and there's your
01:07:22forecast.
01:07:22Well, we didn't have any, there was just, they were just sort of showing up.
01:07:26And so we didn't know if we had to build a factory to build 50 cars or a hundred cars
01:07:30or a thousand cars.
01:07:32Well, how many?
01:07:32We would never have guessed a thousand.
01:07:33How many employees are you at now?
01:07:35700.
01:07:36700.
01:07:37Just like 690 or something.
01:07:39Oh yeah.
01:07:39Well, but I mean, that's like, that's a lot.
01:07:42Well, I mean, it went from 20 to so, so, uh, 20, 2020, we didn't do anything really.
01:07:49Nothing.
01:07:49It was like, yeah.
01:07:51Same.
01:07:51Took a year off.
01:07:52Yeah.
01:07:53Um, 2021, I think we had 105 people and we built 27 cars and 2023, we built 148 cars and
01:08:03we had, I think something closing on 550 people or 600.
01:08:08And what's the capacity of your new facility?
01:08:11Like what, in terms of cars?
01:08:13So Torrance, there's actually two facilities.
01:08:15Oh, well, there's a parts.
01:08:17Okay.
01:08:17I've always seen the one.
01:08:18Yeah.
01:08:18Yeah.
01:08:18Parts.
01:08:19It's not, it just looks like parts.
01:08:21And, uh, but after sales.
01:08:22So servicing cars in the field is a separate buildings, 55,000 feet.
01:08:27Um, the place you've been is 113,000 feet and it could theoretically do 200 cars a year.
01:08:36Wow.
01:08:37Yeah.
01:08:37So it's, then we have another one in England, which is about half the size.
01:08:41Yeah.
01:08:42Huge facility though.
01:08:43I was shocked by the scale of it.
01:08:45Yeah.
01:08:46Well, we, you know, we paint.
01:08:47No, I know, but I've been like, you know, McLaren in Woking and I feel like your production
01:08:52floor is, yeah, I was going to say a little bigger actually.
01:08:55Yeah.
01:08:56Yeah.
01:08:56Well, we're building cars by hand.
01:08:57I know.
01:08:58Yeah.
01:08:58And it's, uh, yeah, it's wild.
01:09:00Yeah.
01:09:01So unfortunately we're going to have to wrap it up, but the, the great thing is we're going
01:09:05to continue the singer story in a part two with Rob Dickinson and Raj Nair.
01:09:11So why don't we, as a transition, if you can just tell us briefly how you and Rob managed
01:09:19to drag the man, the myth, the legend, from Ford and Multimatic into singer.
01:09:26So, and then I'll ask him the same question.
01:09:28Yeah.
01:09:28So, uh, your answers don't match.
01:09:31So, so Raj, uh, was a CTO at Ford.
01:09:35Uh, he's an engineer.
01:09:36Yeah.
01:09:37He's a driver actually.
01:09:39Um, passionate.
01:09:40Yeah.
01:09:40Motorcycle.
01:09:41And so we had, we, uh, I'd hired Multimatic for a couple of things.
01:09:47Um, they're actually still a supplier to us, component supplier, but they were services
01:09:50supplier for some time.
01:09:52Um, I worked with, uh, Larry Holtz, Larry Holtz there for a while, not, not with Raj at
01:09:57the time, but obviously I knew who Multimatic was.
01:10:00Our team, like we, we all, we sort of all know.
01:10:03All car geeks, no Multimatic.
01:10:04Yeah, but with the singers gotten to this point where it's, it's of the 700 people, it's
01:10:08like six, 50 of them are in production and supply chain.
01:10:12Wow.
01:10:13The rest of it is, you know, there's some, you know, people obviously on the customer
01:10:16experience side, uh, and I would say also engineering.
01:10:19So new product engineering, new, new, you know, the new things that we do all run out
01:10:23of England.
01:10:24So we have, you know, that's an ops business.
01:10:27It's not a sales business.
01:10:29The, the design studio, Rob and I are the product guys, you know, he does the style
01:10:34engineering.
01:10:35I do the rest of it.
01:10:36So how it drives and who our partners are and how it sounds and all that other stuff.
01:10:39Um, that team is relatively small and, and, you know, in the, in the business of the bulk
01:10:45of the work is, uh, you know, is running a manufacturing business, which I have no experience in and I
01:10:52hate it.
01:10:53So it's, it's like the, the people that are good at that, people like Raj are like
01:10:59gladiators.
01:11:00Like they're right.
01:11:02They love the punishment.
01:11:03Hardcore.
01:11:03We have 500 suppliers, you know, you can imagine 10% of them are a problem at any given time
01:11:08at any company.
01:11:09So it's not, it's not unique to us, but that's the fight he's fought for years and years
01:11:13and years.
01:11:13And he's, he has clearly has met.
01:11:16He's not just, it's not just combat everyday.
01:11:19He has methods.
01:11:20He has processes.
01:11:21He has experience with it.
01:11:22And then I, I mean, you know, you see real bureaucracy in action and bureaucracy, but then
01:11:27the same thing and huge consequences.
01:11:29So the, but that's actually what leads us to Willow Springs is instead of fighting to
01:11:34figure out how to not lose value, which to me is manufacturing, how do you maintain your
01:11:39forecast and not, not fall apart?
01:11:41I wasn't really building any value.
01:11:43I mean, Rob and I doing the products.
01:11:45Yeah.
01:11:45Determining what a product is, but the opportunity then to go and expand our brand, um, in, in
01:11:51this direction with, with Willow Springs.
01:11:54I couldn't possibly do that and try to do that other job at the same time.
01:11:59Right.
01:11:59And then we have others.
01:12:00There's, that's not the only thing.
01:12:01So it's the future product strategy.
01:12:03I'm the chief strategy officer now.
01:12:04It's a tacky corporate name, but we couldn't think of anything else.
01:12:07I love it.
01:12:07Yeah.
01:12:07But the point is I get to go work on sort of building the brand, expanding the brand
01:12:11geographically as well.
01:12:13Um, really looking at the products and what possibilities are and being able to take the
01:12:17time to do that, uh, well, it was not possible and do it, do the same, you know, so
01:12:23I'm, this is like a fantasy having Raj around because he's good at it.
01:12:27He's a fantastic, all of our team are, are, we have pretty strict policy hiring.
01:12:32I'll never forget.
01:12:33I'll never forget.
01:12:34I saw him.
01:12:34Fantastic guy.
01:12:35Yeah.
01:12:35I saw him in 2016, uh, must have been, I don't know, you know, the Paris or Frankfurt
01:12:42auto store or something and his arms in a sling.
01:12:44I'm like, what happened?
01:12:45He gets hurt pretty often.
01:12:47I go, what happened?
01:12:48And he goes, oh, he goes, you know, when we won Le Mans, I was so excited.
01:12:51I, I, I, I mean, I had a few drinks, but I jumped over the wall.
01:12:55He just crashed a bicycle the other day, but yeah, we've become, we've become friends.
01:12:58I mean, that's the thing that's, that's cool about singers.
01:13:00We're, as everyone's sort of similarly wacky about cars and he's a terrific dude.
01:13:05All, all of our team are generally.
01:13:06I'll just drop a dime on, on Raj and just tell you and your lawyers that you may want
01:13:11to restrict some of his activities.
01:13:14I talked to him when he was at Ford, because he's a, apparently he was like fraternity president
01:13:18in college.
01:13:19He would love cars, also race motorcycles.
01:13:22And I said, Ford lets you do that?
01:13:24He said, they don't let me race motorcycles anymore.
01:13:26So you might want to write that.
01:13:28He did crash a bicycle like a couple of weeks ago.
01:13:31No, he's, he's, I think he's, uh, he's balanced.
01:13:34I heard some of the stories, but I think he's.
01:13:36He's cool.
01:13:37He's a good driver too.
01:13:38Yeah.
01:13:38Which is helpful.
01:13:39So it's easy for me to explain what, why we want to do something.
01:13:42He gets it.
01:13:43He's not like, I'm just like a car person, not just like a MBA.
01:13:48Super hard to find.
01:13:49Yeah.
01:13:49It does.
01:13:50And our board, uh, we, so we have an, uh, investors, uh, a guy named Tom Wagner, um,
01:13:55who was familiar with Raj.
01:13:57I forget through something else as well.
01:13:58And he helped get that done.
01:14:00So, you know, how we, how we conned him to come in the door.
01:14:03I think it was, he's, he's also sort of built for the,
01:14:06this and he sees an opportunity to take his experience, which is vast.
01:14:10Uh, Multimatic wasn't planning to grow and, you know, also double and triple.
01:14:16It's not a hard set.
01:14:16Like you want to leave Ontario and come to Southern California?
01:14:19Well, he was, no, he was in Ann Arbor.
01:14:21Actually.
01:14:21Really nice.
01:14:22We could still extract him out of a nice.
01:14:24Ann Arbor, Manhattan beach.
01:14:25Come on.
01:14:26A guy, another guy doesn't screw around.
01:14:27He, he, he bought a house and moved out within weeks.
01:14:30Yeah.
01:14:30Yeah.
01:14:31That's great.
01:14:31Well, you can hold, keep us honest, but our first question to Raj is going to be, you
01:14:36know, so how did Maz and Rob con you into the job at Singer?
01:14:39Yeah.
01:14:40So, which is what we'll do.
01:14:41Yeah.
01:14:41Perfect.
01:14:42Awesome.
01:14:43Well, we could talk to you for hours more about all the cool stuff you're doing.
01:14:46Probably we'll have you back once you, we get the, what are we going to call it?
01:14:51The Singer Festival of Speed or whatever that materializes when we want to talk about that.
01:14:55Don't have a name.
01:14:55Let's get you back on.
01:14:58A revival.
01:14:59Is that right?
01:14:59Great.
01:14:59I can get another multi-million dollar idea.
01:15:02You're full of them.
01:15:02You're full of them.
01:15:03Full of something.
01:15:05Certified genius.
01:15:05All right.
01:15:06Thank you, Maz, for coming on.
01:15:07Of course.
01:15:08It's been great.
01:15:09Yeah.
01:15:09Thanks for having me.
01:15:10Thanks for having me.
01:15:11Thanks for having me.
01:15:13Thanks for having me.
01:15:15Thanks for having me.
01:15:17Thanks for having me.
01:15:25Thanks for having me.
01:15:30Thanks for having me.
01:15:39Thanks for having me.
01:15:41Thanks for having me.
01:15:42Thanks for having me.
01:15:46Thanks a few.
01:15:47used here in the movie.
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