- 23 hours ago
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00It is originating from the violent animal within each of us.
00:14People are losing their faith in humanity itself and to some extent in spirituality.
00:20How have you lost your faith in it when you never had any faith in the first place?
00:24How is it possible then that a well-read person continues to believe that tradition is spirituality?
00:35Even if to promote veganism, even if to save animals, if you turn to spirituality, you will have to feel uncomfortable.
00:44You will have to live with an inner conflict.
00:48The violent animal sitting within us can be taken care of only through core spiritual teaching.
00:56Without that, veganism won't succeed.
00:58You will have to keep faith at the center.
01:00And when faith is at the center, then veganism happens on its own.
01:04And that is the only way veganism can happen.
01:10I am Sachdeva. I am India Lead with Climate Healers.
01:13I have organized the tour that we are on.
01:17When you stated that veganisms are somewhat distanced from spirituality,
01:23I like to think of myself as an intersectional vegan
01:27who is not looking at the subject of animal rights in exclusivity
01:32and in fact is trying to understand those from a perspective of human rights as well
01:37and how they are intertwined.
01:39When you said that, you know, veganisms are distancing themselves from spirituality,
01:45I think that that is happening because a lot of vegans, of course,
01:51are not getting the necessary direction that they need to accept that the whole reason we need to do this
02:01is because we are distanced from spirituality.
02:03And what is happening is when you are faced with the reality of the way we treat animals as well as humans,
02:13people are losing their faith in humanity itself and to some extent in spirituality.
02:19So how would you say...
02:21I didn't get the logic.
02:23When you have not even tried spirituality even, how do you lose your faith in it?
02:28How do I lose my faith in something?
02:31I have not even tried this once in my life and then I say I have no faith in it.
02:35How have you lost your faith in it when you never had any faith in the first place?
02:39Because of the way traditions have co-opted religion.
02:43So have you no information or knowledge or access or insight to see beyond that?
02:50Precisely.
02:51So how would you say that...
02:52There is enough material on the net to see how spirituality is something way beyond tradition.
02:58How is it possible then that a well-read person with access to information technology continues to believe that tradition is spirituality?
03:10There is enough material on the internet and there are books and they are all very easily accessible.
03:16They are in the public domain.
03:17Many of them are particularly famous.
03:19How is it still possible that a young person, a well-read person says that you know traditions are all very exploitative and I thought that religion is nothing but traditions.
03:30Therefore I turn my back to religion.
03:32How is it possible?
03:33Absolutely not.
03:34The issue that we are facing you have correctly put it.
03:38The way traditions are co-opting religion and spirituality is the problem.
03:44Traditions can do whatever they want to do.
03:47And remember traditions are not conscious on their own.
03:50It is vested interests of selfish people who use traditions for their own selfish gains in the name of religion.
04:00So all that is happening and that is being done by dumb and mediocre people.
04:03But don't we know better than that?
04:05Don't we have access to resources to see that it is some kind of a very lame conspiracy?
04:12So lame that you can just push it and it will fall.
04:16There is nothing in it.
04:17So how are smart and sharp youngsters not able to see through the problem of tradition co-opting
04:27religion as you said?
04:28How is it possible?
04:30I will add another dimension to what you are saying.
04:37It is very comforting to the ego to keep spirituality at arm's length.
04:48That might be the real problem.
04:50Because if you accept that spirituality is the solution, then you will have to self-correct.
04:57Spirituality is about looking into yourself, figuring out all the nonsense that keeps circulating
05:04within and owning the responsibility to correct, purify and improve yourself.
05:13That is what even the well-read population, even the intellectual population does not want
05:18to do.
05:19Because irrespective of how much knowledge you have and how deep your intellect is, the animalistic
05:25tendency to consume, to exploit, to be afraid, to be greedy, to be envious, that remains
05:33the same.
05:34Even if to promote veganism, even if to save animals, if you turn to spirituality.
05:42You will have to feel uncomfortable.
05:45You will have to live with an inner conflict.
05:49And that's the reason why vegans want to keep these two very separated.
05:55Well, Climate Healers is one of the founding organizations for the Interfaith Vegan Coalition.
06:02And so we did that in 2016.
06:04No, I'll… may I, if I…
06:07Right.
06:08You see, even when we say we are going to have an interfaith vegan conference or something,
06:13what we say is, veganism is at the centre.
06:16And now, let's use faith to promote the cause of veganism.
06:21That won't work.
06:23You will have to keep faith at the centre.
06:25And when faith is at the centre, then veganism happens on its own.
06:29And that is the only way veganism can happen.
06:31I would have turned, very humbly, I am submitting to you, with no sense of vanity in it, because
06:39we still have a long, long, long, long, long way to go.
06:42So how can I start feeling proud at such an early stage?
06:46More than a lakh, probably five lakh people would have been turned vegan by our humble efforts.
06:55They have not been turned vegan.
06:57They have been turned spiritual.
06:59And because they have been turned spiritual, veganism has just happened.
07:04Just happened.
07:05Once you are spiritual, you just cannot bear to consume dairy or meat.
07:11That is precisely what happened with me as well.
07:15And because I agree with you, that is why I am not able to accept that, you know,
07:22that this can be applied to veganism as a blanket thing, that all vegans are away from spirituality.
07:28No.
07:29Obviously, see, nothing is blank.
07:31That's what happened to me.
07:32I became spiritual and then this automatically happened.
07:36Obviously, nothing can be applied in a blanket sense, in a 100% perfect sense to anybody.
07:42But what is happening largely to the vegan community, that's what I am stating to you.
07:46Right?
07:47You know of the intensity of our efforts, so you would have known that we probably have deep
07:52experience with the vegan dynamics in this country.
07:55And it is from there that I am coming.
07:58So from your experience, what is your advice on bringing this alignment back into the movement?
08:05India has religiosity in its soil.
08:08You cannot talk to the Indian people in a language of ideology.
08:12Indians would not listen to ideology, but Indians will listen to the language of love,
08:18compassion, spirituality.
08:20Right?
08:21I understand it might be important to make a documentary in English.
08:27You have to speak to the people in their language and in their metaphor.
08:31And that's the reason why the vegan community in India is still so small.
08:34We are talking down to the people.
08:38We are talking down to the people.
08:40We are treating as if we are at a higher intellectual station and those people down there need to
08:47listen to us.
08:48This won't work.
08:49It's unfortunate because a lot of the learnings of the activist community is coming from a more
08:54Western narrative.
08:55Exactly.
08:56And it doesn't apply.
08:57That Western veganism simply won't work in India.
09:00It has not worked.
09:01It will not work even in the future.
09:03It will not work even in the future.
09:06But Indians will turn vegan on their own.
09:11Because they have that sentiment already by virtue of their pre-existing spirituality.
09:17The sentiment that animals are living beings, that even our gods have taken forms of animals.
09:25You have Matsavatar, you have Kurmavatar.
09:28All kinds of improbable animals have hosted our gods.
09:34Think of fish, think of a tortoise.
09:36And the gods in the heavens decide to take the shape of a fish or this or that, birds,
09:42even crows, think snakes.
09:45So Indians, by their very spiritual training, are already ripe to very quickly turn vegan.
09:56But you cannot impose imported Western ideologies on them and hope that they will listen.
10:02They will not listen.
10:03Exactly.
10:04Thank you so much.
10:05If I may, just a couple follow ups too.
10:08So when you, in your understanding of religion and spirituality, do you see religion as a path
10:14towards spirituality or do you see them the same?
10:17And one more question and then you can, you know, take them together.
10:21So you say that, you know, gods and goddesses and, you know, spirituality,
10:26it's taken the shape and form of animals as well.
10:29But there is also, please pardon my lack of awareness,
10:33but there is also some understanding that humans are in some sense superior
10:37because we're closer towards enlightenment.
10:39So what is your thought on that as well?
10:42The one who is superior in the spiritual tradition is vested with a lot of responsibility like
10:49the, the superior one in the family.
10:52What will the superior one in the family do?
10:54Eat up the small ones or bring them up.
10:57So that's the answer.
11:00Unlike in Abrahamic folds where the superior one is probably supposed to consume the smaller
11:07one.
11:08So that's how it is interpreted.
11:09Though there again, I advise specifically the Muslim community when they say that it
11:14is mentioned in the Holy Quran that all the little creatures and all these, they are made
11:19for man.
11:20I ask them what does it mean made for man?
11:24It means that they are made for the compassion of man.
11:28They are made as the responsibility of man to take care of them.
11:33We are the trustee.
11:35And the trustee is not supposed to consume what he has been entrusted with.
11:40Right?
11:41You are supposed to take care of them.
11:43Not assault them, not kill them, not consume them, not exploit them.
11:47Right?
11:48So that's the thing.
11:49You see, we worship and she put it very cutely in that thing.
11:55Bhumi Devi, but it was written in Mammi Devi.
11:57When it was Mammi Devi, it sounded so nice to me that the Devi is the mother.
12:06The Devi is the mother and the mother is all this.
12:10Where the cycle of procreation, life and death happens, we worship it.
12:17So, obviously, we cannot be violent towards it.
12:20How can you be violent towards the article of your worship?
12:24Right?
12:25So, we are already in that condition.
12:28It's just that spirituality has to be shown as different from the existing traditions of
12:41religion.
12:42That brings me to your original question.
12:45The relationship between religion and spirituality.
12:49Relationship is the outermost shell of spirituality.
12:57It is there so that the uninitiated ones might be somehow introduced to the basic principles
13:07and initiated on that long road that passes through firstly spirituality and then ends in
13:17liberation.
13:18So, religion was designed to be conducive to spirituality.
13:27You could say religion is the in terms of in a model including concentric circles, religion
13:35is the outer circle, spirituality is the inner circle and these two are concentric and liberation
13:43is the centre.
13:44The outer circle is religion, the inner circle is spirituality and liberation is the centre.
13:52The problem is that the outer circle has moved infinitely outwards.
13:58The outer circle must be somewhat close to the inner circle.
14:04Right?
14:05Then, can there be some communication between these two circles?
14:09Now, what has happened is that the outer circle has been sabotaged.
14:13The outer circle has been co-opted, taken away by our own animalistic tendencies.
14:22So, as it was said that tradition has simply walked away with religion and that is what has
14:31changed.
14:32That is why you see such a great difference, even dissonance between religion and spirituality.
14:40I was in fact, you just returned from Opie Jindal University and in the last session that
14:47I had with them, one of the questions that was asked to me was is India too religious to
14:53be spiritual?
14:54And there is an entire video with the same title is that India is too religious to be spiritual.
15:01Church has become the degraded condition of religiosity in India.
15:06So, I fully understand that we have to fight all the impurities that have sneaked into religion
15:16and in fact, totally owned it, possessed it.
15:23But fighting the impurities is very different from fighting religion itself.
15:30Along with the impurities, if you discard the essential religiosity, is that not the same
15:36thing as throwing the baby away with the bath water?
15:42The bath water is dirty, so throw it away.
15:45And along with that, you also threw away the baby in the bath water.
15:49How wise is that?
15:52And you cannot have veganism sans Vedanta.
15:55Let me put that very, very clearly.
15:58I want that message to go out clear and loud to the entire vegan community in India and broad.
16:03You cannot discard religion and still hope veganism to succeed.
16:09Your ways have not succeeded today.
16:11In the past, you have been trying since 10 years, 20 years, you have not succeeded.
16:15You will not succeed even in the future.
16:17In fact, veganism without spirituality would be quite dangerous.
16:23Are you implying that religion is the exclusive way towards spirituality?
16:29You can be very spiritual without being religious.
16:34You can be very spiritual without being religious.
16:37And if you are spiritual without being religious, then you are truly religious.
16:40Exactly.
16:41The definition of dharma is to constantly remember that the mind has to be brought to a realization,
16:54to a relaxation, to a point free of its own impurities.
16:59That is dharma.
17:00That is dharma.
17:01Nothing more than that.
17:04Pure and simple.
17:05Keep the mind pure.
17:07This is dharma.
17:08Thank you so much.
17:09And it's interesting that you brought up the baby and the bathwater because Dr. Selesh Rao
17:14has come up with a model of solving climate change, which is the climate bathtub model.
17:20So if Dr. Rao, please explain, if you could briefly explain the model.
17:26Just looking at fossil fuels and I just modeled it with a baby sitting in a bathtub and with
17:32water as the equivalent of the CO2 in the atmosphere.
17:36CO2 equivalent, CO2 methane equivalent.
17:39Let us please look at the spiritual life.
17:44It is obviously minimalistic because you understand there is not much point in consuming and consuming
17:50and consuming.
17:51Right.
17:52So, there is a bit of antinatalism involved there because just as you do not want to consume
17:59a lot, you also do not want to procreate a lot.
18:03All the values that you can rever and admire, they are anyway emanating from the spiritual
18:16life.
18:17Therefore, it is the spiritual life that will be conducive to, even give birth to, to nonviolence,
18:29to veganism, to compassion, to communal harmony, to all the nice things we can talk of.
18:37All the goodness comes essentially from spirituality.
18:43Otherwise, why do we need to be spiritual?
18:45Because we are not already good.
18:48Even as he is born, it is a wild thing.
18:52The baby that is born carries so many millions of years of baggage, evolutionary baggage.
18:59Look at the just born baby, full of ignorance, crying, full of filth, attached, afraid, deluded.
19:09That is the condition of the baby and that is the reason why we need spiritual education.
19:15Because we are not born all right.
19:18And as you go on correcting the baby by addressing his, her inner animalistic tendencies, life is
19:28set right.
19:30Veganism will happen even without making any specific or targeted or dedicated efforts.
19:39It will just happen, just happen.
19:44I have a question.
19:45One second.
19:46So Guruji, in my journey, the spiritual I got, I saw God in every bird, every tree, every
19:56butterfly, the lake, everywhere, I see God in the cow and her baby, I see God everywhere.
20:03How can we now uplift India through this spirituality?
20:08Help us.
20:09We are doing that.
20:10Attempting that.
20:11Kindly support us.
20:15You have to bring the basics to the people.
20:20Let people realize that another way of thought and life is possible.
20:27What is happening is that the mainstream current is extremely strong.
20:32The common man is totally unable to resist its speed, its flow, its power.
20:42So we all just get swept away.
20:45There has to be an alternate current.
20:48There has to be something else you can opt for.
20:51And that has to be brought to the public domain.
20:53So which brings me to the idea of creating a vegan university.
20:58Wonderful.
20:59Wonderful.
21:00Wonderful.
21:01Just as you had that vegan temple in the movie.
21:03Yes.
21:04Wonderful.
21:05Always.
21:06So complete education system that's around non-violence.
21:10Why not just as you have named the movie on Ahinsa?
21:14Why not name the university on Ahinsa?
21:16Ahinsa University.
21:17When you have Ahinsa University, then it remains not merely about animals.
21:23Then it starts including that one central animal as well.
21:29So why be partial against human beings?
21:32When you say that veganism is a great value, why not include human beings in the fold?
21:38It is not only animals that we exploit or do we?
21:42We exploit fellow human beings as well.
21:45So, when you name it Ahinsa, then you are being fair to human beings as well, exploited human beings as well.
21:51When you say that I am a vegan, in some sense you have said, okay, I can be unfair to human beings, but I will be fair to animals.
21:58Is that possible?
21:59Ahinsa is all inclusive.
22:03It includes your relationship with animals, with human beings, with trees, with plants,
22:09with the river, with the mountain and also with yourself.
22:14Ahinsa includes your relationship with yourself as well.
22:17So, Ahinsa is a far more inclusive and more powerful and more fundamental word.
22:23Yeah, we were calling it until now the Jeeva Karuna Vegan University.
22:29Lovely, lovely, lovely.
22:31.
22:38.
22:40.
22:42.
22:44.
22:46.
22:47.
22:49.
22:50.
22:51.
22:52.
22:53.
23:00.
23:01.
23:02.
Recommended
0:42
|
Up next
0:56
0:49
0:53
1:03
0:56
1:00
0:55
0:52
0:51
Be the first to comment