- 7 hours ago
Is Malaysia truly prepared to protect children from increasingly complex online threats?
Can we really uphold the principle of ‘protecting without limiting potential’ — where a child must be free to learn and explore, but never free to be exploited?
Is raising the minimum age for social media use genuinely the best way to keep our kids safe?
Catch the discussion on Dialog Tiga Penjuru, 8.30pm.
Can we really uphold the principle of ‘protecting without limiting potential’ — where a child must be free to learn and explore, but never free to be exploited?
Is raising the minimum age for social media use genuinely the best way to keep our kids safe?
Catch the discussion on Dialog Tiga Penjuru, 8.30pm.
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NewsTranscript
00:00I'm Nala Huda and in this edition of Dialogue 3 Penjuru, we ask a difficult but urgent question.
00:13Are our kids truly safe online?
00:16Malaysia faces a digital crisis where one in every four children has stumbled onto sexual or disturbing content online.
00:25AI-generated child abuse material has skyrocketed from a few thousand cases to nearly half a million in just months.
00:34And as technology races ahead, our laws, institutions and even parents are struggling to keep up.
00:40So we ask these critical questions.
00:43Should we raise the minimum age for social media?
00:47Are parents being unfairly blamed?
00:49And do tech companies deserve criminal liability?
00:52To help us unpack and break this down, we're joined by three experts at this hour.
00:57We have Sanya Saranovic, Deputy Representative of UNICEF Malaysia,
01:01Professor Datuk Nur Aziah Mohamad Awal, Child Law Expert from UKM,
01:05and Dr. Hezrina Begum, Criminologist and Senior Lecturer at the Faculty of Law, University Malaya.
01:11Thank you so much to our three panelists for joining us today.
01:15Thank you for having us, Naila.
01:19Now, perhaps we can start off with you, Sanya.
01:23We're referring to some of the statistics that UNICEF in Malaysia recently revealed
01:28that one in four children has stumbled onto sexual or disturbing content online.
01:35This is just in Malaysia.
01:36Do you think this is a failure of policy, technology or parenting?
01:41Who should bear responsibility?
01:44What do you think makes children particularly vulnerable?
01:46Once again, thank you for having me, Naila, and happy World Children's Day.
01:53Tonight, Merdeka is going blue to celebrate World Children's Day.
01:58Regarding statistics that you mentioned, why children, what is the situation,
02:04I think it's not only the case in Malaysia, it's a global phenomenon.
02:08And because children are particularly vulnerable, because they are naturally curious and trusting,
02:16and they are often lack of ability to distinguish safe from harmful contact.
02:23And this is making them an easy target for grooming and manipulation.
02:27As you mentioned, in Malaysia, 94% of children aged 12 to 17 are online.
02:36And one in four Malaysian children has experienced some content, sexual or disturbing content.
02:44As you mentioned, as well, alarmingly, around 100,000 children fell victim to online sexual exploitation or abuse each year.
02:55So how parents can help staying engaged, talking openly about online experience and using parental controls.
03:05But also regulators must enforce safety by design standards and require a platform to implement age assurance and reporting tool.
03:16We have in Malaysia online, safety act 2025 is a good step, is a positive step, but enforcement and awareness must go hand in hand.
03:29So to answer to your question, who is responsibility, it's responsibility to everyone, starting with parents, industry, regulation, policy.
03:39The system needs to be in place, not to ban children of internet exposure, but to navigate and empower them to use in a safe manner to protect themselves and to protect the others.
03:53Prof. Asia, do you agree?
03:56Is there anyone that should bear the most responsibility?
03:59Can we pinpoint perhaps parents or policy, technology?
04:03What do you think?
04:05Well, happy Children's Day.
04:07Thank you, Naila.
04:09I think a very basic thing that we need first to understand that, of course, children are the care of parents.
04:18And it is the parents who actually provide them with all those technological gadgets, the handphone, the laptops and whatnot.
04:26And, of course, when they go to school, they also will meet friends that probably have the same equipments.
04:32And then they will start talking peers to peers, of the same age, and then they will start to get connected.
04:40So I think, first and foremost, that responsibility of making sure that our children are safe online are the parents' responsibility.
04:47And, you know, they must, children must know that using handphones or laptop or being online come with a responsibility and also some liability.
05:00And it will have to be explained.
05:02Parents must take that first step of explaining to children, if I use this, you will have to do that.
05:09And secondly, of course, government, you know, I think have the biggest responsibility, making sure that children are safe online and passing the Online Safety Act 2020.
05:20I think it started off in 2024, then end up in 2025, getting the Royal Ascent.
05:25And it will be enforced on the 1st of January, 2026, so it says.
05:30So to me, government has done its bit.
05:34But, of course, then law would be good on paper, but will not be that good if it's not being enforced properly.
05:41So I think we need to prepare ourselves in what we are talking about in terms of online safety.
05:47We must have a proper enforcement group, proper equipments.
05:53It's not easy to monitor things online.
05:56And if you put the responsibility to the general public, I mean, if children is online and they saw something, do you think they would report?
06:05I don't think so.
06:06So it must be somebody.
06:08There must be some sort of mechanism whereby you could actually look at various platforms.
06:15What are they doing?
06:17And then if they do breach or break the law, then they should be then prosecuted and be punished heavily.
06:25And Dr. Hezrina, your thoughts on this, can we pinpoint this as a failure of policy, technology, parenting?
06:32What are your thoughts?
06:33Okay, so I do agree with what Prof. Aziah say.
06:41And I think basically, while both are important if we talk about laws and enforcement,
06:47but I think the problem with regards to Malaysia is the implementation and enforcement.
06:53Firstly, while we do have laws, we have this dense framework in the Penal Code, Communications, Multimedia Act,
07:03Sexual Offences Against Children, I think Evidence Act and all this.
07:08But when we talk about CSAM, whatever laws are meant that's written for an internet is meant for images of real children
07:23rather than AI-generated children.
07:27This one is not covered.
07:28This one is not covered.
07:29So, in practice, basically, I think the frontline capacity to me is rather patchy
07:38because we have limited digital forensics resources.
07:43We have, I think, slow cross-border cooperation.
07:45So, when you hear even certain ops, you know, certain operations, it's been,
07:51I mean, it takes several years to actually come to fore.
07:55So, I think we need to expedite that.
07:56And, you know, by that time when everything is recovered, there will be so much harms
08:01already caused towards the children, sometimes irreparable harms.
08:05So, I think while we do have all these laws, I feel that it lags behind AI and the platform accountability.
08:14So, because, and also, you know, all these AI, all these internet platforms is designed just to engage.
08:23It's not designed for security purpose.
08:27Everyone is, you know, they're so engrossed on engagement rather than security purpose.
08:32So, I think we need to look at the enforcement bit a bit more.
08:37Loss is there, but I think the enforcement at the moment.
08:40You pointed out a lot of really important points there.
08:45And we will talk about implementation or the aspect of enforcement a bit later.
08:49But before that, you also talked about the cross-border nature of this.
08:54Sanya, your thoughts, how do you think Malaysia should navigate the cross-border nature of these online threats?
09:00You know, we're looking at grooming networks, trafficking operations, the sort of harms that children are exposed to online
09:07when many of these perpetrators operate outside our jurisdiction, Sanya.
09:13Yeah, thank you for this question.
09:15And just to reinforce that the message that came from the previous questions, that a lot of responsibility is on parents.
09:23But parents also don't understand the risk of the internet.
09:29So, the dialogue like this, raising awareness, is an important part of support to parents.
09:36Relation to your second question, as we know, online predators don't need the passports.
09:43Grooming networks and trafficking operations often operate outside national jurisdictions.
09:49That's why Malaysia is working with ASEAN partners and global bodies like Interpol,
09:57International Child Sexual Exploitation Database.
10:01This database helped to identify more than 42,000 victims worldwide.
10:08And also, Malaysia proposes ASEAN Child Protection Information Exchange Network
10:14and the shared digital forensics protocol to harmonize evidence-sharing and speed up investigation.
10:22The solution, of course, must be regional, not national,
10:25because these crimes cross-border as easily as just one click.
10:33Yesterday, we just finalized ASEAN event, ASEAN ICT forum that the Malaysian government hosted
10:42with support from UNICEF and Australia High Commissioner.
10:46And it was a lot of talk of cross-border cooperation.
10:50We know that Australia is now leading, they are having,
10:54they will start to implement this ban on social media, for example, below age 16.
10:59So we will have opportunity to learn from them.
11:03But we also know that there is a big appetite among all countries in the world to cooperate on this,
11:10because it's really becoming an issue of the modern age.
11:16Children are more and more exposed to the risk of the internet and online exposure.
11:21But we also should not look just into the bans and limit children exposure to the online,
11:30but rather help them to navigate using the safe tools in a safe reporting mechanisms.
11:39As you said, there is this big appetite to tackle this sort of issue internationally.
11:43But Dr. Hezrina, as you pointed out, the sort of cross-border cooperation on this issue is rather slow.
11:52What do you think should happen regionally, Dr. Hezrina?
11:55Well, I think that sometimes there are laws around repat, extradition, extradition.
12:05If the perpetrator is in Malaysia, then it's easy to arrest.
12:10But if the perpetrator is abroad, so we have these legal issues, so it takes time.
12:17And while we do have all this, you know, Interpol and we have, you know, Asian cooperation,
12:23but there's still a lot of challenges because a lot of them are, you know, everyone knows this,
12:30I think, because why a lot of these explicit materials are online because people can operate with annoy-me-tee.
12:38So you need more experts to actually detect and revise where are all these materials coming.
12:47And usually they have this big network.
12:49And we talk about even dark web, you know, dark web also, you know, it's not easy to penetrate.
12:55You need people, certain people, and there's also a fee there.
12:58So like I said, there must be a way, especially when we deal with children, exploitation, trafficking,
13:06to try and make this process, especially extradition process, a bit quicker.
13:11So I think that then we can have, you know, we can quickly address all these issues before more harms are suffered by the victims.
13:22Yeah.
13:24You know, there's a lot of talk about, of course, enforcement and how implementing these laws are easier said than done.
13:31Prof. Azia, what do you think?
13:32What's missing here?
13:33Do you think enforcing laws on the internet is, you know, still difficult, it's impossible?
13:40Or do you think that there just needs to be more initiative being done?
13:44I think as it is today, I mean, in Malaysia, when I was student commissioner, we have a lot of complaints on issue of exploitation.
13:52And what, I mean, the law before we are going to enforce our Online Safety Act, is that you make a complaint, you either call, make a complaint, phone call, write to MCMC.
14:10And if it's on Facebook, if it's on Instagram, you have to inform.
14:15Of course, when you are doing it, they have, you want to report.
14:21So you report that they are having a very, you know, sexual content, which is dangerous to, and we are offended by those content.
14:30So you need to write, to write, to inform that.
14:33If nobody write, nobody inform, nothing will happen.
14:36So I think it's a boundary-less kind of issues.
14:40And, of course, criminal law, when we want to take actions, or any law, I'm also wondering how the Safety Online Act is going to work in terms of making it a boundary-less offence.
14:55And how do you prosecute someone who is, the platform is not in Malaysia, the platform is outside.
15:01And how do you find them?
15:02How do you restrict them from doing all this?
15:06And would they abide by our, you know, when we send them summons and things like that?
15:13So these are the things that we really need to think about.
15:17But to me, even before we pass the Act and even before we enforce the Act, as it is today, it is very, very difficult.
15:25I remember at one time, there were only 48 prosecutions by the police, about between 40 to 50 prosecutions made by the police on issue of online cases, online exploitation, phonographic materials, and things like that.
15:42But MCMC actually shut down like 400,000 of, you know, online websites and so on, because they are dangerous to the general public.
15:58But to me, it's like 48 prosecutes and 400,000 being, you know, they were shut down.
16:05And it's not something, it's like not even 1% of the total amount that MCMC did.
16:11So to me, this is something that we really need to do.
16:15The enforcement is very important.
16:17You were saying about, I mean, Australia is going to start on the 10th of December.
16:22They're going to make sure that under 16 cannot, should not be on Facebook, on Instagram.
16:29So I think also probably on TikToks and all those things.
16:33So to me, this is very important.
16:35And we are planning to do the same, raising the age from 13 to 16.
16:40But how are we enforcing it?
16:42That is my big question.
16:44I mean, how are we enforcing it?
16:47And should it even be enforced in the first place is the billion dollar question here.
16:51I mean, Sanya, you said earlier that banning social media or restricting it according to ages is not the solution here,
16:58but rather to help children navigate your thoughts on raising the minimum age for children to access social media.
17:04Is that not the right solution?
17:06Are we not in the right direction, Sanya?
17:09I think that's the question for all of us.
17:11We don't know the answer because there is no evidence that until now,
17:16there is no evidence that ban will make children safer.
17:21During two-day ICT forum, regional ICT forum, it was discussion about it.
17:26And the e-safety commissioner, Australian e-safety commissioner, was talking about, not about the ban,
17:33but actually rather delaying exposure of children to online depend on their age.
17:41I do believe that now with introduction of this delay or ban in Australia,
17:46we will have opportunity to learn lessons from them.
17:50And there is a big cooperation in Malaysia, the openness to cooperate.
17:56And luckily they are going first.
17:58So we will all, in Malaysia, in the world, learn lessons from them.
18:02What we can do in parallel, I always do emphasize prevention.
18:07We need, you will hear mostly talking about parental responsibility,
18:12but we need to also, as we empower children, we need to empower parents as well.
18:16As a parent, I'm a mother of the two adolescent girls.
18:20I'm not aware what is everything available on the internet.
18:24So we need to support the parents, to educate the parents.
18:27At the same time, digital literacy should be included in the education.
18:32So this partnership between children, parents, school, community,
18:37and legislator and industry should happen.
18:40Also, we, as parents and as an educator in the school,
18:46we need to create a safe environment when children will not feel afraid,
18:51isolated, to approach us, to report if they are exposed to some harmful content.
18:57At the same time, we really need to work with the industry
19:01to ensure that the regulation is enforced
19:07and that the platforms are safe by the design.
19:10So we need to, the banning of the, or limiting the age will not solve the issue.
19:17It's one component that we are about to learn how it's functioning in the practice.
19:21But in parallel, many things need to happen in order
19:25to really help children to safely navigate the internet.
19:30Dr. Hazrina, do you agree?
19:31I mean, the Malaysian government is already proposing
19:33to raise the minimum age for social media users from 13 to 16,
19:37following in Australia's steps.
19:39Do you think this is the right direction?
19:42I do agree to Prof. Azia and Sanya's opinion.
19:49But I feel that, well, it might reduce, you know,
19:53but it's just a blunt tool.
19:54Because if you see realistically, children can lie about the age.
20:00They can use their parents' or grandparents' email.
20:06And you see, especially those, let's say, baby boomers' age.
20:11Okay.
20:11So if you ask children, a lot of them create those accounts also for their parents,
20:18for their grandparents.
20:20They even know the password for emails of the parents.
20:23Like, maybe my son, who is already an adult, my children,
20:29some of them know my password, you know, in case of something.
20:32So what I'm saying is that it can limit, but it does not deter.
20:38And when this happens, when you raise, like I said, okay, it makes it a bit harder.
20:44But the risk is that you are changing a visible risk to a risky,
20:51hidden, unsupervised situation.
20:54So rather than, you know, you're seeing it as it is, it's visible risk.
20:59Now it goes underground, you know, it becomes risky.
21:03And you don't know, there are multiple layers.
21:05So I feel that, you know, while that can sort of reduce,
21:11make it a bit more difficult, we have to understand we are in this AI age.
21:17We are in this internet age where learning is done online,
21:21communication is done online.
21:23So we have to figure out some sort of mechanism where perhaps monitoring
21:29would be another bet, another safe bet, you know,
21:34because I don't think keeping them offline is realistic.
21:39Yeah, I think that's my opinion.
21:41As Sanya said, this is just one component of a much larger approach
21:45that needs to be taken.
21:46If we're talking about enforcement, maybe I can throw this question to Prof. Azia.
21:51Yeah. Do you think it's enough in terms of enforcement and implementation
21:55to simply take down or remove content?
21:59Do you think that there needs to be, you know, if we're talking about a carrot or stick,
22:03we need a bigger stick against platforms, against social media, tech companies.
22:08Do you think they should be held liably or criminally liable for, you know,
22:13hosting this sort of content?
22:15No, taking down is not enough to me because damage has been done.
22:19And whatever is being downloaded online is there.
22:24You probably will still be able to trace it even if you have taken down
22:30or closed that particular website.
22:34That's one thing.
22:34Number two, I think it's important that the platform provider be prosecuted,
22:43be taken to court, be held responsible.
22:46And number three, I would just want to add on whether the increase of age 13 to 16
22:54would certainly help.
22:55I mean, I was the first student commissioner.
22:58I do think that this is a child's right to information,
23:02but I think it's a parental guidance kind of right in terms of getting information.
23:14But there must be some sort of mechanism where we could, you know,
23:20improve the situation as such that we are able to control or give them proper guidelines.
23:26I certainly agree with Sanya when we say that it must be in the school syllabus
23:31where children upon, you know, entering into this online issue in terms of using handphone or laptop,
23:41especially during COVID, we were just, we were just shocked.
23:45We were, it was so sudden and everything went like, you know, very fast.
23:50And we really need to have now, from now on, start the guidelines
23:55and give parents some information how to go about controlling these issues.
24:00Because otherwise, you know, one, you're trying to balance between rights of children to information,
24:07right to children to get fully, you know, to use online materials and things like that.
24:15But at the same time, you are worried about your children's safety.
24:18You are worried that they are being exploited.
24:20And I think I certainly, I'm one of those generations, I'm already retired, I have grandchildren.
24:27I don't worry about my grandchildren.
24:29And they even tell me, actually, grandma, you can do this.
24:33I said, oh my goodness.
24:34And how old is she?
24:35She's only seven and she knows what to do when she's holding a handphone.
24:40And I was like, oh, this panicked me.
24:42And I said, you know, we must do something.
24:44Because as grandparents, I don't know what to do.
24:46And my grandchildren say, please, can we use your handphone?
24:50I said, no, you're not.
24:51And then, so it must be a certain rule that we have.
24:54So I think enforcement is very important.
24:57And we must try to prosecute a few platform providers because damage has been done.
25:04And they must pay compensation for those, I mean, in particular,
25:08those phonographic materials of children must, these children must be given compensation.
25:13As Prof Azia said, the internet isn't written in pencil, but written in ink.
25:19And whatever stays on the internet will stay somehow on the internet.
25:24Do you agree, Sanya, that simply taking down or removing flagging content isn't enough?
25:28That action, criminal, legal action needs to be taken against tech and social media companies
25:34for hosting harmful content.
25:36Do you think that's even possible to do?
25:37We have, you know, the Online Safety Act in Malaysia as well,
25:40but it's proving a lot more difficult to enforce.
25:45I mean, like every legislation, it's this one new that is innovative at the current moment
25:52will be challenging to enforce, but it's not a reason not to do so.
25:58Taking down the harmful content is only one portion of the holistic and comprehensive approach
26:06that we need to reassure.
26:08You are talking about penalization, fully agree, and prosecution.
26:13But this is, again, at the end of the story, at the end of the process.
26:18It's more retributive.
26:20What I would like to strengthen from my perspective and from UNICEF's perspective,
26:26any act of violence against children should start with reinforcing prevention.
26:36And I do go back to support the parents.
26:39Why parenting online is different than offline?
26:42It's not.
26:43We need to support the parents to reinforce the limits for children,
26:47but in a way that children need to understand that these limits are not punishment.
26:52This is the way of protecting them and gradually exposed to the Internet.
26:58Then I fully agree what was said.
27:00We cannot keep children off the Internet, but we need to give them tools
27:05to understand right or wrong and to understand the risk.
27:09Then second, we really need to find a good child-friendly reporting mechanism
27:16because I think 3% of Malaysian children said that they don't feel safe.
27:22They don't feel at ease to report if something happened on the Internet.
27:28So we need to find a child-friendly mechanism for them to feel safe.
27:31In the same time, we really need to partner with the schools,
27:34parents and the schools, to talk about it
27:37and to include digital literacy as soon as possible into the school curriculum.
27:44In parallel, we really need to engage more with the industry
27:48for them to understand their responsibility and obligations,
27:53save-by-design platforms, transparent algorithms and consequences
28:00if they don't apply with the regulation and legislation.
28:05So it's really a nationwide approach, cross-border approach
28:09and the global approach where all sectors need a role to play,
28:14but parents are on the front line and we really need to empower parents.
28:19Dr. Izrina, your thoughts on this,
28:21taking action against social media, tech companies
28:25for hosting harmful content, leaving children vulnerable.
28:29This then raises another issue of potentially overreaching or censoring speech online.
28:38How do you think we can strike this balance?
28:41Okay.
28:42When I do agree that companies need to be,
28:48need to face their consequences
28:50because they cannot just be so profit-driven, profit-oriented
28:56because that's what it is.
28:58You know, they get, I'm sure they get lots of income.
29:01You know, it's a lucrative business.
29:04Advertisements are now all, you know, on this, on social media platforms.
29:10I'm sure you all get suddenly the shopping thing
29:13or whatever that you've been, yeah, scrolling through.
29:16So, like I said, in a way, blanket criminalisation may not be the factor,
29:27but you have to look at transparency, cooperation,
29:33because right now we don't want then our police and prosecutors
29:37to become like de facto product managers
29:40to check and see whether this, you know,
29:43what are the materials on these platforms.
29:49So, I think it must be a strict rule,
29:53a non-negotiable rule that for all these platforms
29:56that they have these security measures in place.
30:00That should be a non-negotiable rule.
30:04And how are they supposed to do it?
30:06I mean, they have to deal with experts and everything.
30:09Another thing that I see why we're having problems,
30:13this is from my own experience.
30:15When we talk about AI, criminal justice system,
30:20sexual exploitation, trafficking,
30:23all these experts, they actually work in silo.
30:26They don't work together.
30:28So, for example, that, you know, I work on certain things on AI
30:32and I work with the experts and scholars on IT and computer software.
30:39So, they actually only look at things on how to feed the machine
30:43to be more, you know, efficient,
30:46rather than looking at human rights issues,
30:48child rights issues, nuances.
30:50So, that's why you don't work together and you work in silo.
30:55That's why we keep having new problems.
30:57You solve one new problem and then you create another problem.
31:02So, yeah.
31:03And your second question was on what, Nailah?
31:06How to balance, I guess, between enforcing laws,
31:11trying to hold social media companies responsible and liable,
31:15but at the same time,
31:16sort of tackling the risk of censorship and overreach.
31:21How do we balance that?
31:22Yeah, the thing is, that part, yeah, as I've said,
31:26whatever we do, we must remember children are individuals.
31:30They have rights.
31:31Don't over-securitize them.
31:34I don't think it's really fair
31:35because you cannot have a situation where only adults are having access.
31:41Children are heavily policed
31:43because they are the ones who are using a lot of AI now.
31:47We are in AI generation.
31:48So, I think that, of course, there needs to be a balance.
31:52There needs to be adequate and friendly monitoring.
31:56I think whatever it is that we want to do,
31:59we have to have in mind that we have to allow the children to grow up
32:03in this current situation, but in a safe and friendly manner.
32:07But don't let them be left out.
32:10Don't let them be dinosaurs
32:11because there's going to be more harms later,
32:16repercussions later.
32:17There seems to be a lot of emphasis on making the online environment
32:22child-friendly and even the reporting mechanism child-friendly.
32:26This is what Sanya has stressed on.
32:28And I want to go back to that point.
32:29Before we go into what actually is needed in the reporting channel
32:34or mechanism, what is the current state of reporting for children
32:38if they come across harmful content online, Sanya?
32:43Yeah, there is a possibility to report.
32:47For children, according to the research,
32:49only 3% of children, as I mentioned,
32:52feel encouraged, safe and trust to report.
32:56We need to understand more why
32:59and we need to involve children
33:01in designing the child-friendly reporting mechanism.
33:05We need to ask them.
33:06Prof mentioned her granddaughter, right?
33:10So we need...
33:12Children know of 7 years old, they know much more.
33:16So we need to involve them in designing
33:18how the safe reporting mechanism should look like.
33:22Definitely by the fact that only 3% of Malaysian children
33:26are feeling good about reporting currently
33:29indicate that something is not up to the standards.
33:34It's not working.
33:35We need to need why and based on it,
33:38we need to design the appropriate one mechanism,
33:41safe and child-friendly.
33:42Talking about this child-friendly reporting mechanism,
34:00I think it probably sounds good on paper,
34:03but how would that look like in practice?
34:06Prof Aziah, you talked about your own experience
34:08with not just your children, but your grandchildren now.
34:11And I think perhaps in some parents' cases,
34:15their first instinct would probably be to punish,
34:17to immediately take away their gadgets,
34:20their mobile phones, their laptops,
34:21and to perhaps reprehend not the predator,
34:24but perhaps the children themselves
34:26for accessing this content.
34:28How do you think we can sort of shift this
34:30or transform this narrative or this mindset
34:34that we shouldn't punish children,
34:36but instead allow or create this conducive
34:40and safe environment for them to speak to parents
34:43and trust them?
34:45Yeah.
34:46I think talking to children is very important,
34:49consulting them.
34:51I know the Office of Student Commissioner,
34:55we do have the Children's Consultative Council
34:58where we do have consultation with children
35:02from the age of eight until they are 18.
35:07So we have different groups.
35:09And whenever we need to do policy papers
35:13on various issues, we consult them,
35:16we ask them, we talk to them,
35:18and we listen.
35:19It's very important to listen to children.
35:22And I think this is what is probably lacking now
35:26where both parents are working
35:29and with heavy responsibilities,
35:32and they probably have between one to three children now.
35:36I think the generation do not have many more than that.
35:39But at the same time, you must remember,
35:41they can't afford helpers, domestic workers at home.
35:46Then they probably send children to various nurseries
35:49and also to schools.
35:51So in between, they probably have a transit house.
35:54And they need handphone
35:56because they need to tell their children,
35:58mommy will pick you up maybe a little bit late.
36:00Please go to the transit house, things like that.
36:04And how do you control when you probably provide?
36:07And now, of course, some schools are actually banning handphone.
36:12But to me, it is a very important gadget
36:14to communicate, to talk.
36:16But so it is very, very important to listen to them
36:20and ask them what they actually know.
36:23How does this little handphone work?
36:26How does this laptop work?
36:27And then you would probably get an answer
36:30to how to actually work a mechanism
36:33to provide some form of control.
36:37Now, the other thing is when Dr. Hazreena was saying
36:41about children having more information than we do,
36:47I think that's very important.
36:50We sometimes always drafted laws and policies
36:53based on our glasses, our eyes, not their eyes.
36:57So when I first did the first student consultation,
37:02when I was student commissioner,
37:04I asked them, what do you actually want me to do?
37:07What are the things that you think would be good to change?
37:12And they themselves even,
37:13there are some who actually said,
37:15I want to go to school.
37:17I want to go to school and I feel safe.
37:19Can you stop these children that come to school
37:22and disturb others, bully?
37:25Not in so many words, that's what they actually want.
37:28And even they were talking about
37:30in where they are living, they said,
37:33could you actually, how do you regulate people
37:36so that they don't throw rubbish out of their windows
37:39when they are living in flats
37:40and then those rubbish got into the cars?
37:42So these are the things that we didn't think about it,
37:45but they do, they want to feel safe.
37:48They want that environment.
37:50So when they are online as well,
37:52they actually confess that while online,
37:56some of their friends are actually diving
37:59into the dark webs and so on.
38:01So I said, oh my goodness, how do you know?
38:03Okay, there are occasions that we actually share
38:06this information.
38:07And now classrooms have their own WhatsApp groups
38:11and all that.
38:12This is something that we must try.
38:15So government, parents must work together
38:18in trying to find answers.
38:20The more we say no to them and punishing them,
38:23it's wrong.
38:24This is not a punishing style of law
38:30or even a style that we need to do
38:33because children now are so much different
38:36from children in my days.
38:38Even my children are different from my grandchildren.
38:41So the moment you say no,
38:42that was the first thing they'll do.
38:44And the more you curb, the more you control,
38:47the curiosity kills the cat.
38:50They go, okay, mommy weren't allowed.
38:53Maybe there must be something that we can do.
38:55How do we get?
38:57And they are the greatest scientists to me.
39:01I technology, technologists,
39:03because they can hack other people's phone.
39:04They can even use their mother's phone
39:07while the mother busy cooking and things like that.
39:09So please, to me, we need to have,
39:13listen to children, listen to them,
39:15consult them,
39:16and this would be a better law for formulations.
39:21Trusting children, listening to them,
39:23providing the safe environment is,
39:25of course, a given.
39:26But, you know, just to share,
39:28I think I've seen this firsthand
39:29when young children or even girls especially,
39:34when they try to, you know,
39:35stand up for themselves
39:37and, you know, point this out
39:39as an issue on social media,
39:41I've seen how, you know,
39:42adults tend to not trust them.
39:44Then there's this other issue of victim blaming
39:47and, you know, how they get manipulated
39:50into these sort of narratives.
39:52And that safe environment about speaking out
39:55about these issues online
39:56is definitely not there.
39:57Dr. Hazrina, how do you think
39:59children can grow up
40:01in this kind of environment online
40:02where they then have to face issues of,
40:05you know, as I said,
40:06victim blaming,
40:07how adults sometimes don't even believe them
40:09that they're being, you know,
40:10sexualized online.
40:12These are issues that we need to talk about openly
40:14but they don't find that kind of support
40:16among adults even.
40:18So when they don't have this kind of environment,
40:20where can they go?
40:22Dr. Hazrina.
40:22Yeah, this has been a recurring issue
40:28of especially, I think, in Malaysia.
40:31I think it's global also on victim blaming,
40:34not believing the child.
40:37Although we do have our CRC,
40:40we have laws,
40:41but, you know, still children
40:42have very little rights.
40:44They're being looked at as invisible sometimes.
40:46I always talk, you know,
40:48when I give my lectures or talk,
40:51I say that even when you see
40:52a child is queuing for food or something,
40:55you will just simply cut queue
40:57as if that child is invisible.
41:00So that is when we talk about
41:01you see the child visible
41:04and you still act as if the child is invisible.
41:08What more if it's online?
41:10So a child's words are some,
41:13most of the time,
41:14they're not believed,
41:15they are being, you know,
41:16there's a lot of suspicion
41:20towards what they say,
41:22you know, their credibility,
41:25they need to be corroborated.
41:27And then they are an easy target to blame,
41:30of course,
41:31because first thing they will say
41:32that children,
41:33are you sure you saw this?
41:35Maybe, you know,
41:36you are just imagining it.
41:39You are watching too much of cartoons
41:41or some series,
41:42you know,
41:43you're creating this.
41:46This has always,
41:47always been a problem.
41:49And then there's a lot of victim blaming.
41:51Then victim blaming will go,
41:53the first thing is parents.
41:55They're always blaming parents.
41:57While I know parents,
41:58yeah,
41:59we do a lot of,
42:00you know,
42:01hold a lot of that bulk of responsibilities,
42:04but we have to be realistic.
42:06You know,
42:06you cannot be monitoring your child 24-7.
42:09You know,
42:10we have,
42:12you know,
42:12we have to work,
42:13make ends meet,
42:14you know,
42:15because while parents have a lot of responsibility,
42:20the bulk of responsibility,
42:23and the school,
42:24and whatever,
42:26but I think firstly,
42:28the school have to teach on online,
42:30the safety of going online.
42:33Okay,
42:33you can go online,
42:34but this is what will happen.
42:36And if this happens,
42:37what do you do?
42:38I think,
42:39I don't think children are being taught all that.
42:42Even like I said,
42:43stranger danger for,
42:44for,
42:45for teaching stranger danger for schools in Malaysia also,
42:50as opposed to some countries in the West,
42:52stranger danger,
42:53they're just talking about,
42:55do not talk to strangers,
42:57do not go into the car with strangers,
42:59but they do not say,
43:00do not speak online with strangers.
43:03I think many of us do,
43:05you know,
43:05in school,
43:05they still don't teach that.
43:07It's just physical.
43:09It's just limited to that.
43:11So when,
43:12when a child is online,
43:14that's why I said,
43:15you have to make this mechanism easy for them to,
43:19report or,
43:21you know,
43:22who do you complain to?
43:24If you feel bullied,
43:25if you feel harassed,
43:26if you feel blamed,
43:28yeah,
43:28then children will know that,
43:31okay,
43:31I can go here.
43:32And if something comes to me,
43:33there's somewhere I can report to.
43:36And for them to be believed,
43:38even let's say after investigation,
43:39you find there's nothing,
43:42you still have to give them that benefit of the doubt.
43:45Stop doubting them before giving them the benefit of the doubt.
43:48I think this needs to be a big thing that we need to educate the society itself.
43:53Just the last thing is that if we keep just looking at the child,
43:58the family or the school,
44:00we are also absolving the companies and the platforms.
44:04So now they are taking that benefit saying that,
44:06well,
44:07we provide,
44:08we are providers.
44:09It's up to you to teach.
44:10So that's why it's good that we have to also put them accountable
44:14and not just say that it's your,
44:16just your duty to keep safe.
44:18Yeah.
44:19Safe.
44:19Yeah.
44:20Sanya,
44:21do you think that this issue where,
44:22you know,
44:22society doesn't believe children that when they fall victim to,
44:26you know,
44:27harmful,
44:28sexualized content online,
44:30that society doubts them that it's,
44:33you know,
44:34like the tale of the boy who cried wolf.
44:36And do you think this just happens in Malaysia?
44:39Do you see this happening internationally?
44:41And how big of an issue is this?
44:43How does this then acts as an obstacle to children finding a safe
44:48environment to report about these issues?
44:52Naila,
44:52I do think that this is an issue international.
44:56It's not only for Malaysia,
44:57of course,
44:58it's international issue.
45:00And that's why,
45:01you know,
45:01we,
45:02instead of waiting for children to be victims of offline or online crimes,
45:10let's engage with children and let's institutionalize participation of children
45:16on all issues that matters to them,
45:19including online protection.
45:22Here in Malaysia,
45:23I mean,
45:23I call Malaysia my home already almost three years.
45:27And I met some wonderful young people very articulate talking about climate,
45:32talking about mental health.
45:34Let's listen to them and let's build this muscle that they also talk about their online
45:39experiences and how they would like to see online world safe for them.
45:45Because what,
45:46it's not only that we need to listen to them and give them as colleagues said,
45:50benefit of the doubts before creating our own opinion.
45:54Let's let's trust them because nobody offline or online will invent that being a victim of
46:01sexual crime or of violence.
46:04So the solution is to build not only reflex and muscle to listen children,
46:12to really institutionalize participation.
46:15It's off the topic.
46:16It's not about online,
46:17but I've been witness of Langkawi declaration where a youth of Malaysia told the ministers
46:24in the ASEAN region of environment how they would like to see a safe environment.
46:32And so let's give them this opportunity to articulate themselves.
46:37And then we will be more open and more rely on their opinion,
46:41including listening and trusting them when they face obstacle.
46:45When it comes to the online protection,
46:49we need to build digital resilience.
46:52I call this digital resilience.
46:54We don't need to have children only safe online,
46:58but also empower them to see the risk,
47:01but also to seize the opportunities.
47:05Prof.
47:05Aziah,
47:06we were talking about this earlier,
47:07about shifting this mindset,
47:09about believing and listening to children as opposed to just punishing them.
47:13But how do you think we can institutionalize this shift of mindset into our institutions,
47:19into our laws,
47:20legal protection for children?
47:22Or do you think this is easier said than done?
47:26If I have the policymakers,
47:29then they will have to start that at home.
47:32We,
47:32parents must first listen,
47:34must believe their children.
47:37Otherwise,
47:37children,
47:38if you are stern with your children,
47:41you are so much so into disciplines,
47:44until they,
47:45they can't even,
47:46you know,
47:46they are so afraid to voice whatever problems they have.
47:51I think that whatever laws you're going to pass is not going to work.
47:56Okay.
47:56That,
47:56that's most important.
47:57So you must also learn how to listen,
48:01how to appreciate.
48:02And also,
48:02you must actually educate the public.
48:04I mean,
48:05if you look at,
48:06I mean,
48:06I've seen some issues on the Facebook,
48:10on Instagram,
48:11and it's horrifying how people actually criticize.
48:15It doesn't matter.
48:16And if you remember some years ago,
48:18an issue of one particular school girl who actually complained about issue of sexist remarks.
48:27And she was actually,
48:29you know,
48:30you know,
48:32people were actually blaming her,
48:34putting words into people's mouths and saying all the bad things.
48:39And she actually was afraid to go to school.
48:43She don't even want to,
48:45you know,
48:45to talk about it for a while until,
48:48you know,
48:48somebody from the ministry.
48:50And also,
48:50I think I went and actually had a phone conversation.
48:55And trying to actually help her,
48:58to give her,
48:59empowered her to actually,
49:01she was brave enough to actually openly talk about it.
49:04But in the end,
49:06you know,
49:06the netizen,
49:07as well as the community,
49:09are not,
49:09you know,
49:10not ready to have this particular child being so outspoken.
49:14So I think Malaysia,
49:16I think this is 2025,
49:18and we have sophisticated laws,
49:20trying to secure children's safety,
49:23and also protect children's rights.
49:26But we,
49:27the community are not prepared.
49:29I think this is where we need to have a lot more campaign,
49:32a lot more education.
49:34A community must be educated,
49:38must be informed on the,
49:39because the way that children grows today is very much different,
49:43from when we were children ourselves.
49:45So I think that must start now,
49:48before we even implement anything else.
49:51And it is from this particular education style for the community,
49:58that will lead to consulting children,
50:00and listening to otherwise children,
50:02even at school.
50:03I mean,
50:03I've been to many schools,
50:06and when we,
50:06I asked them,
50:07do you have a box,
50:09where children could actually put in complete,
50:11those were the days when they have any kind of complaint,
50:15they can put it in a box.
50:16None of the schools have that.
50:17Oh,
50:17we don't use that anymore.
50:19But even if they have,
50:21and I said,
50:22what happened to it?
50:23They said,
50:24oh,
50:24the deputy headmaster will take it out,
50:28read through.
50:28And what do you do after that?
50:30Nothing.
50:30So even then,
50:32children will say,
50:33why should I complain?
50:34Why should I?
50:35And there are also many cases,
50:37when I just,
50:38this is out of the issue,
50:39but issue of bullying,
50:41when a child tells the parents,
50:43parents actually believe,
50:44and went back to the school.
50:46And the school actually said,
50:47well,
50:48we will investigate this child first.
50:50And then offer things like,
50:51maybe we should,
50:52you know,
50:53change you to another school,
50:55to another class,
50:57something like that.
50:58That is not the solution to the issue.
51:00You actually should encourage the child to talk,
51:03and then investigate,
51:05and then take actions on this issue.
51:08So to me,
51:08it's the same.
51:09Even online things,
51:10if you don't trust your children,
51:13you don't let them tell you what is going on,
51:16then the children will never actually talk to you about it,
51:20and it will carry on.
51:21This exploitation will carry on online,
51:24and because we are not able to listen to our children,
51:27and believe in them.
51:29Prof. Azia emphasizes that it should start with the parents.
51:32Sanya thinks that it should be a collective effort.
51:35There should be this partnership among all parties,
51:37parents,
51:38schools,
51:39legal institutions,
51:40and social media companies.
51:42Dr. Hizrina,
51:43I'll let you have the final thoughts on this.
51:46How do we institutionalize this shift of mindset,
51:49about,
51:50you know,
51:50the whole of society,
51:51legal institutions,
51:53not blaming victims,
51:55which are children in this case,
51:56but rather believing and listening to them?
52:00Well,
52:00it takes a lot of work though,
52:03and it has to be consistent.
52:05I think the most important thing is to develop child's rights education
52:12from preschool,
52:15because children will grow up.
52:17You see,
52:17what we are facing now,
52:19is a result of that lack of understanding of child rights,
52:23when we are small.
52:26You know,
52:26I remember when I was going to school,
52:28nobody taught me of my rights.
52:30I didn't,
52:31isn't it?
52:32Prof. Azia or Sanya,
52:33did the school teach you about child rights?
52:35So,
52:36we were not taught,
52:39and there were even suggestions to teach parenting,
52:45courses of parenting,
52:46because even parents,
52:48we were not given courses to be a parent.
52:50We straight away become parents when we get children.
52:53So,
52:54we have to shift,
52:55because,
52:55you know,
52:55because we have a lot of threat now.
52:57The threat is not just visible now,
52:59a lot of threat is online.
53:01Just like a lot of property offenses used to be visible,
53:05now everything is online.
53:06So,
53:07now threat,
53:07there's plenty of threat online.
53:09So,
53:10children need to be educated.
53:12So,
53:12we have to think of,
53:13firstly,
53:14educating the society from the,
53:17from,
53:18you know,
53:18from preschool until adult.
53:21There need to be more reminders,
53:25maybe rewards on,
53:26you know,
53:26how many children,
53:28or have you fed today?
53:31Or,
53:32you know,
53:32what are the good things that you've done to help children?
53:35You know,
53:35just this kind of incentive,
53:37so that you inculcate those good values,
53:40and teach the society to be more nurturing,
53:44and aware of rights.
53:45And also,
53:46when these children,
53:47when we start giving them from,
53:48from small,
53:49these children rights education,
53:51when they grow up,
53:52they will be aware,
53:54and they will teach the same.
53:55So,
53:55I think that's the best way to do it.
53:58Although,
53:58it takes a bit time.
53:59Yeah.
53:59Thank you so much,
54:02Dr. Azrina,
54:02Prof. Azia,
54:03and Sanya for being with us today,
54:06and for sharing your thoughts.
54:08It's welcome.
54:09Thank you so much,
54:10Naila.
54:12That is all on Dialogue 3 Penjuru,
54:15in this edition.
54:16That is all with me,
54:16Naila Hudah.
54:17We'll catch you next time.
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