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All In with Chris Hayes - Season 2025 Episode 176
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00:00One. The Epstein Files Transparency Act is passed. No way. We're not going to allow this cover-up
00:08to go on for one day more. Tonight, Congressman Jamie Raskin and Congresswoman Adelita Krijalva
00:14on today's big vote. And what just happened in the Senate? The DOJ is protecting pedophiles
00:20and sex traffickers. Do not let the Senate muck this up. Plus, Epstein survivors demand
00:28accountability. I am traumatized. I am not stupid. And they have a scathing indictment
00:35of the president. I voted for you, but your behavior on this issue has been a national
00:42embarrassment. And what this remarkable defeat for Donald Trump means for American politics
00:48going forward. Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is an American that serves foreign
00:57countries and themselves.
01:00What All In starts right now.
01:07Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. Both chambers of Congress have voted nearly
01:12unanimously to release the Epstein Files, handing Donald Trump the biggest political defeat of
01:17his second administration. Only one Republican voted against the bill in the House. It passed
01:22by what's called unanimous consent in the Senate. They didn't even take a vote. They said, sure.
01:25And so the Epstein Files Transparency Act, it is formally known, now goes to the White House.
01:32The president has grudgingly admitted he will sign it. It's a head snapping victory for the people
01:40who've been pushing for this, especially the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, who are on Capitol
01:44Hill today lobbying for full disclosure.
01:47To the president of the United States of America, who is not here today, I want to send a clear
01:55message to you. While I do understand that your position has changed on the Epstein files,
02:00and I'm grateful that you have pledged to sign this bill, I can't help to be skeptical of what
02:05the agenda is. So with that being said, I want to relay this message to you.
02:11I am traumatized. I am not stupid. I am traumatized. I am not stupid.
02:20I beg you, President Trump, please stop making this political. It is not about you, President Trump.
02:27You are our president. Please start acting like it. Show some class. Show some real leadership.
02:33Show that you actually care about the people other than yourself. I voted for you,
02:38but your behavior on this issue has been a national embarrassment.
02:45It is time to take the honest, moral ground and support the release of these files.
02:52They've been fighting for this for a very long time, but particularly since the Trump Department
02:56of Justice first went all in on Epstein earlier this year. It's easy to forget, but it was Trump
03:01officials who brought this whole issue to the forefront in the first place. Remember, Pam Bondi,
03:05who had promised this big reveal, right? Before she revealed the files, she had hundreds of FBI
03:11employees working around the clock, pouring over those Epstein files. The FBI then flagged to
03:17Bondi that Trump's name kept coming up in the documents, something she relayed to Trump. The
03:21bureau then abruptly issued a two-page memo announcing that basically there was nothing to see here,
03:27that the investigation was effectively over and they would be releasing no more information.
03:31That decision by this administration has occasioned what has been probably the biggest political
03:36disaster Trump has encountered in his entire second term so far. I mean, really, for the first
03:41time in recent memory, he was simply unable to bully and browbeat and cow congressional Republicans
03:47into just doing what he wants. But boy, did he try. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson kept the House
03:54adjourned for nearly two months, in part, we think, so he could avoid swearing in Democratic
03:59Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva, who would be the final deciding vote on that discharge petition.
04:04When that plan failed, Trump personally called Republican Congresswoman Lauren Boebert of Colorado,
04:09one of four Republicans on the petition, to try to pressure her to vote no on the discharge
04:14petition, to take her name off. When that didn't work, Boebert was summoned to the situation room
04:19with the head of DOJ and FBI for a kind of a bad cop, bad cop routine, where they again tried to
04:27pressure her to take her name off of a petition that she had already signed. That failed as well.
04:34Republicans staged an open revolt and Trump backed down. They had to kind of knock the king over.
04:40Check me. Get up from the table. And that in turn led to some very funny about faces. For instance,
04:45on Friday, Republican Congressman Troy Nels of Texas posted, quote, I'll be voting no on the
04:51Epstein hoax. Now, I'm not going to let this hoax manufactured by Democrats slow us down.
04:56But then Trump tried to pretend like he was fine with the vote, actually, after realizing that he
05:00was going to lose it and said, OK, you guys all vote for it. Sure. So then Nels had to twist himself
05:05to the nod to explain why he was now voting yes on what he called a hoax just a couple of days ago.
05:11No, I don't regret the polls. Well, you said you're not. I don't regret the polls.
05:18Ricketts aside, the bill will become law. As many folks have pointed out, however,
05:22the legislation is entirely unnecessary in the first place.
05:27Let's be crystal clear. Trump has the power to release the files today. He does not even need a
05:35vote. And he continues to defy the subpoena of the Oversight Committee to release all the files.
05:42What is Donald Trump hiding?
05:45What is Donald Trump hiding is a question that he gets a lot recently, and he usually doesn't take it
05:50well.
05:50It's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter.
06:09It's the way you ask these questions. You start off with a man who is highly respected,
06:14asking him a horrible insubordinate and just a terrible question.
06:19Two female reporters asking obviously totally newsworthy questions about an issue of the day.
06:27One gets called piggy. The other gets called insubordinate because she didn't, what,
06:32bow and scrape to the Saudi king? The Epstein Files Transparency Act now heads to Donald Trump's
06:38desk. It's unclear if he'll, like, ditch out from the Saudi crown prince dinner to sign it tonight.
06:44It is clear Donald Trump still does not want to release the files. I think he's hoping that by
06:50caving on this vote and pretending to declare victory and say, oh, let's move on to everything
06:54else, he can just sort of reduce the pressure, get everyone to forget about Epstein. That,
06:59I got to say, seems like a dubious strategy considering how poor his instincts have been so far.
07:03Congressman Jamie Raskins, a Democrat of Maryland, the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee,
07:08Arizona Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva was the decisive signature on the discharge petition,
07:13which resulted in today's vote to release the Epstein Files, and they join me now.
07:17Congresswoman Grijalva, let me start with you. Your first full week as a member of Congress,
07:21nearly, you know, two months after you were elected. How did today feel, having managed to sort of
07:27outlast the strange staring contest that the Speaker of the House tried to win?
07:34It's literally like a telenovela, like a soap opera, you know, the whole 50 days of waiting,
07:40the excuses. And so we get to this point, and then it was just a race. So we passed the
07:46transparency, Epstein Files Transparency Act in the House, and then the Senate shortly thereafter,
07:51when we were having a candlelight vigil with survivors. And now it's headed to Trump.
07:56So it's been very quick, but I know that a lot of the work that was done before I got here
08:02brought us to this point. And ultimately, it's the courage of these survivors that have continued,
08:07despite sort of the misogynistic ugliness of this administration, and specifically of Trump
08:13in targeting them. This has made the difference. It's their strength has made the difference here.
08:21To Congresswoman Grijalva's point, Congresswoman Raskin, as I was watching what happened really over the
08:26last few days, particularly I was reminding of the old Hemingway quote about bankruptcy, like
08:29slowly, slowly, and then all at once. You know, this was a kind of, it was a sort of hand-to-hand
08:34combat over every name on the discharge petition. And delay, delay, delay. At a certain point in the
08:40weekend, Trump realized he was going to lose between 50 and 100 Republicans, knocked over his king,
08:44said, do whatever you want. And then this afternoon, unanimous consent in the Senate.
08:48Did you see that part of things happening so quickly?
08:53No way. I had not anticipated that at all. I mean, Adelita is a magician. She helped us turn
08:59not only 217 into 218, which is understandable, but 218 into 432 or 431. I can't remember what it was.
09:09That was incredible. And it was through the power of organizing these extraordinary women
09:14who've come forward, the victims turned survivors turned active citizens, who now have been driving
09:22the agenda in Washington. And I really attribute what happened in the Senate to them. The senators
09:28could see a political tidal wave coming. People want the truth. They want a reckoning with whatever
09:36happened and who's part of that conspiracy. And they want justice. And that was clear. And so,
09:42you know, our Republican colleagues were acting extremely desperate and defensive today because
09:48on the one hand, they wanted to look like they were part of it. On the other hand, they knew that
09:51Donald Trump was watching and they wanted to, you know, complain and gripe and so on. And they
09:56lashed out in different ways at Democrats this evening.
09:59Let me ask you a follow up, Congressman, and I'm going to go back to you, Congresswoman.
10:03I want to read you a provision of the bill text that passed that is about to be, it may be signed by
10:08the president. The attorney general, meaning currently Pam Bondi, may withhold or redact the
10:13segregable portions of records that would jeopardize an active federal investigation
10:18or ongoing prosecution, provided that such withholding is narrowly tailored and temporary.
10:24Obviously, that language is designed to, you know, responsibly not wreck any ongoing investigation
10:32while also pushing maximum disclosure. A lot of people, I think, think, given the DOJ right now
10:38is stonewalling a subpoena from oversight. They could imagine a world in which Pam Bondi just
10:42uses that to just toss out huge swaths of the files or to keep them under wraps. What's your
10:47thinking, Congressman? Certainly a lot of people are linking that provision to Donald Trump's sudden
10:54reversal of opinion and determination to get Lauren Summers and Bill Clinton prosecuted with an
11:02ongoing prosecution. It would perhaps give them some cover to withhold evidence. But I just think
11:08that the sentiment is overwhelming within the country and within Congress that everything has
11:14got to come out. And, you know, obviously with proper redactions of the victims' names and
11:18identities and so on. But everything has got to come out. And anybody who's implicated in that
11:25billion-dollar global sex trafficking ring and child sex abuse conspiracy have got to be made known.
11:35I mean, it's got to become clear. So I don't think there's any turning back at this point,
11:39which isn't to say that it won't be a struggle. It will be a struggle every day with them.
11:44Congressman, your father, of course, was a congressman for years. You know
11:48extremely well how the House works, how Congress works. This is not new to you in certain respects at
11:54all. But it is your first week as a congresswoman yourself. And, you know, you're in the minority
11:59and yet, you know, three days in had this huge victory, as Congressman said. It's quite a start.
12:06What are you thinking about what comes next? You know, really, I think people assume because
12:14my dad was here for 22 years that that wisdom just sort of poured in. This is brand new to me.
12:19I'm the most freshman freshman. And I have really relied on so much support from the Democratic
12:25Caucus and leadership in making sure that I'm provided every opportunity to, like, ask questions
12:31and, you know, getting support that way, because it's so important. I from what I'm hearing from
12:36everyone, it's like, this is not the way it normally happens. So I my expectations of, you know,
12:42just showing up and things happening. That's not going to happen.
12:46You show up and you sign a petition and then you get a huge vote, right? Yeah. But I know that it's
12:52been months of a lot of hard work from, you know, Representative Raskin and so many others. And
12:58really, it's been the survivors that have continued to push this issue, continue to say, you know,
13:03despite being their credibility being questioned, them being, you know, called a hoax. Now we know
13:10that all of this has been trying to distract from the real issue, which is getting out the names of
13:17these people that committed horrible, horrific crimes against children and women.
13:24Congressman, I want to ask you about another item that sort of lurks here,
13:28since we're just a few weeks after that shutdown, which is the end of the ACA insurance premium
13:35subsidies, which are going to expire at the end of this year. That was a huge sticking point in that
13:41showdown over funding the government. Republicans managed to pass continuing resolution with eight
13:47Democrats in the Senate that doesn't extend it. There has been a bunch of interesting noise being
13:51made by frontline members, Republicans in the House who are proposing some kind of one year extension.
13:58It seems like Republican leadership is dead set against it. How do you understand the state of
14:02play on that right now? Well, I think the wheel is very much in spin. We are moving for another
14:09discharge petition to get an extension of the tax credits out. I certainly hope we'll get Ms.
14:17Grijalva on it, since she seems to be our good luck charm. But, you know, from our perspective,
14:23you know, we've not yet begun to fight on this. We're talking about millions of people being thrown
14:28off of their health insurance because they just cannot afford to pay a doubling or tripling of
14:33their insurance premiums and the co-pays and the deductibles. So we are going to be fighting very
14:39hard on that. I know there's tremendous nervousness and anxiety among Republicans in swing districts.
14:44A lot of the freshman Republicans, they've heard overwhelmingly from their constituents that the
14:50government has got to act here. And so now, you know, there's much more willingness, I think,
14:55to break with Donald Trump, you know, in the interests of standing with your own constituents.
15:00So we'll see where it goes. Congressman Jamie Raskin. I've already signed it. Oh, she's already
15:06signed it. There you go. And that's right. And the magic pen of Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva.
15:12Thank you both. Appreciate it. Thank you. Coming up, as Congress sends the Epstein bill to Donald
15:19Trump, one of the survivors who spoke out today, joins me next. I'd like everybody to close their
15:26eyes or soften their gaze just for a moment. And I want everybody to think of a child that is close
15:31to them between the ages of 14 and 18 years old. What sound do they make when they laugh?
15:37Really think about that child just for a moment. Now I want you to picture a pair of giant looming
15:44wooden doors and an overbearing marble landing. Those are the doors to Jeffrey Epstein's house.
15:50Do you allow that child to enter or not? If the answer is yes, you would allow entrance. You stand
15:55with predators. If the answer is no, then congratulations. You're on the right side of
15:59justice. Epstein survivor Daniel Bensky spoke at the Capitol this morning just before the House
16:05voted almost unanimously to pass the Epstein Files Transparency Act. It looks very likely the law
16:10will become the act will become law that Donald Trump will sign it. We think tonight he says he will.
16:14And that Donald Trump's Justice Department will now be legally required to hand over everything
16:20it has on Epstein. But Trump has tried to block the full release of these files for so long now,
16:25it's likely the DOJ will continue to look for ways to stonewall, avoid, or delay. And if those files
16:29are made public soon, well then what happens next? What would justice even look like for all the women
16:34who managed to survive Jeffrey Epstein's abuse? Daniel Bensky is one of those survivors. She's also been a
16:40leading voice for releasing all the Epstein files and she joins me now. It's really great to have
16:45you on. Thank you for making the time. And I just want to say I was so struck today by what you said
16:50about forcing everyone to just take seriously the real humanity of people like yourself who were
16:57victimized by Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, thank you so much, Chris, for having me on today.
17:03Um, this was one heck of a day. It was a lot of tears, happy tears, sad tears. It was a real
17:11rollercoaster of emotion. And, um, just to be seen in this world after feeling like we've been hiding
17:20in the dark for so, so long, um, just really feels monumental. Um, just a little bit about my story
17:28and my background. Um, I was recruited to go to Jeffrey Epstein's mansion in 2004. Uh, I was an
17:36aspiring ballerina and a dancer. Um, and when I got there, it started as just a job, honestly. And then,
17:46um, the abuse started to, to rev up and, um, my mom was actually diagnosed with a brain tumor.
17:53And so I had brought Jeffrey Epstein the scans because I thought that he was in the medical
17:58profession. Um, and he really used those scans against me. Um, he had said, great, well,
18:05what are you going to do for me now? Um, and threatened me really the, the, it felt so dire
18:10in that moment for me. Um, and that's when the abuse really began for my story. Um, but I think
18:18it's so important that we remember that we, there are so many women who have, you know,
18:24who were victimized by Jeffrey and Gilan. Like we're talking a thousand women and a thousand stories
18:30and a thousand voices. And I think what stood out to me today and every day now from here on forward
18:36is this survivor sisterhood that really exists amongst all of us. You know, we are such a beautiful
18:43reflection of this nation and women in this nation. Um, and to just be able to stand there together,
18:50um, is really empowering.
18:54I was reading the story, uh, about your, your mom and that those scans and, and, and I've seen
19:00basically saying, look, I know all the best neurologists in this city. I, I, I am the gatekeeper
19:05essentially to treatment for your very sick mother. And that was the, the coercion he used against you.
19:11It's, it's, I mean, no one needs to be reminded how monstrous this is, but even by those standards,
19:15it's, it is striking in how evil and monstrous it is all these years later.
19:21There's so much manipulation that was involved, you know, and we talk about grooming tactics and
19:26grooming starts so young. I think the dancers are especially, um, at prey as models and some,
19:32you know, actors. Um, and so I think my whole life I was, I was really figuring out how to be,
19:40you're not figuring out, but I was really a people pleaser. I was always trying so hard to
19:45do the right thing in the sense of like, be good, be a good girl and do what you're told.
19:49And, um, you know, by the time I got to Epstein, I think that it was an easy way in for him to
19:57manipulate and the manipulation was systematic. Um, and yeah, I just think that he knew exactly what
20:06he was doing by saying, I have dance studio space for you. I have, um, you know, I can introduce
20:10you to the top LA masters in the world. And then just of course, never come through on any of it.
20:17But I felt so seen by him in that moment because he was so, um, open to talking about my life and
20:25what my goals were as a young, I was such a, a young dreamer with starry eyes. And he just was able
20:33to take a lot of advantage of that. And I just want to make sure that, you know, the girls of
20:38the future are not taken advantage of in that way. I wanted to get your reaction, um, to two,
20:45two developments we've had. First, you mentioned Glenn Maxwell. Um, the fact that she was
20:50upgraded to the most minimum security kind of facility, it required an actual affirmative waiver
20:56by the part of the Bureau of Prisons, the department of justice that was granted her after
21:00she sat with Todd Blanche, the number two, the department of justice. How does that sit with
21:03you? Oh, well, obviously not. Well, I mean, it just, she is the only piece of justice that we
21:11have seen in this case until today. Um, and to really move her to a minimum security day camp where
21:19she's out there playing with puppies and having meals, gourmet chefs cook for her. Um, I just think
21:27it's, it's just another, another level of betrayal from our government. And we've seen this time and
21:35time again. I mean, Maria Farmer came forward in 1996 when we sat at the house oversight committee,
21:42we told our stories and we told them in succession and Annie was there representing Maria Farmer.
21:48And we started at 1996 and we worked our way down the table and I was 2004. My abuse would have never
21:54happened if anybody believed Maria. Um, and then it continued on until, you know, the last victim we
22:01heard from was in 2008. And so I just think, um, you know, to sit there and listen to how many lives
22:09have been affected and how, um, you know, it, that should have never been the case. And so now to,
22:16to look at that one tiny piece of justice, just, um, have all these like special treatments. It's
22:23just, that is not what the American people should stand for. She is a criminal and she needs to stay
22:29put in a high security penitentiary. Final question for you is, is about your reaction.
22:36If you have any to the disclosures that have come from the cache of emails that were subpoenaed by house
22:42oversight, they were made public. They came from the, uh, they came from the Epstein estate and just
22:46what struck me is just all of these people just casually buddy, buddy, chummy, chummy with Jeffrey
22:53Epstein after I think they knew what he did, uh, asking for dating advice, uh, you know, making crass
23:00jokes to him, this circle of people. Like what's your reaction to seeing that? Yeah. I mean, we have said
23:07all of this from the beginning that it's not political for survivors. We just want to see the
23:11files be released, but something that comes to mind there is, you know, in my speech,
23:15I talked about, um, girls of tomorrow or thinking of a girl or a person, a young child between the
23:24ages of 14 and 18. And if you would allow that child to go in to Jeffrey Epstein's house, knowing
23:30what goes on there. And I think that the bystanders are just as guilty and we need to hold everybody
23:37to account the neighbors, the butler, the maid, like everybody needs to be brought to light and
23:43we'll never get that until we get transparency in the files. Danielle Benski, uh, who's in Washington
23:49today where she was with a number of survivors who had a remarkable, uh, what looked improbable
23:55victory, uh, in both houses, uh, over, uh, an act that's now awaiting the president's signature.
24:00Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.
24:03Still ahead, the push for transparency, why Donald Trump has done everything he can
24:08to hide the Epstein files. Next.
24:15Donald Trump has been promising to release the Epstein files for more than a year now. I mean,
24:19he ran on it, promising repeatedly on the campaign trail, but even then, if you listen closely,
24:25he was pretty squirrely about it.
24:27Would you declassify the Epstein files?
24:31Yeah. Yeah, I would.
24:33All right.
24:33I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know it. You don't want
24:37to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because it's a lot of phony stuff
24:41with that whole world.
24:43Hmm. Phony stuff.
24:45The revelations we've seen over the last few months show exactly why he was squirrely about
24:48those files from his lewd 50th birthday book contribution about enigmas never age to the
24:5620,000 pages of emails that have now been made public and have caused some of the public figures
25:00named to run for cover. We are seeing precisely why people have been pushing for transparency.
25:05Eric Fudali is an attorney representing 11 victims of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring.
25:10Tara Palmieri is an investigative journalist, the author of The Red Letter on Substack,
25:14host of The Tara Palmieri Show, and they join me now. It's good to have you both here.
25:18Let me start with you. You've been covering this.
25:21They fought and fought and fought and fought and fought and fought. And then at a certain
25:25point, what happened that got us from Lauren Boebert in the situation room getting the like
25:31full treatment from the attorney general, deputy general, the head of the FBI to a 430 vote today?
25:39Basically, the dominoes started to fall last week, even before the discharge petition was
25:43signed. I was hearing from sources that it would be impossible for them to not
25:46pass to sign this bill, to vote for this bill if it came to the House floor. You saw that from
25:52Congressman Greg Stoob. You saw that from Don Bacon. They were already telling their constituents,
25:57I'm going to vote for this bill because the facts are that 90 percent of their constituents
26:01wanted this bill to pass. And there are very few things that 90 percent of people can agree on.
26:07So there was pressure. They wasted a lot of political capital on this for many, many, many months
26:12because ultimately the bill goes to his desk. He signs it, but he controls the DOJ at the end of
26:17the day. And we know who is running the DOJ, a woman who said, case closed. There's no Epstein list.
26:24Oh, wait, a few months ago I had an Epstein list. Oh, wait, now we're opening it again. But just to
26:27go after the Democrats, the perps, because there were no perps. It's just it's a complete disaster. And
26:33already in the freedom of information requests that Bloomberg has put forward, they have noticed
26:39that Donald Trump's name has already been removed from the files when they are being handed over.
26:43Oh, FOIA files from DOJ that someone in DOJ is removing Trump's name. Yes. Okay. That's something
26:49to look for. I want to I want to play for you, Eric, the moment, because I will say tracking this
26:54very closely, you were it. I did not think when I woke up this morning that it would be on the
26:59president's desk tonight. And partly that's because Mike Johnson, who looks like an absolute
27:03doofus. Totally. I mean, truly, like truly a clown after this whole thing. He was he was circulating
27:10a memo with the five things we have to change about it. And they talking points about why the
27:14bill's bad and it's going to imperil national security said, well, I hope the Senate's going
27:17to amend it. And Thume was like, no, we'll just we'll just unanimous consent. So I want to show you
27:22the moment when during a vigil of survivors, candlelight vigil, the news came that this, I think,
27:27somewhat unexpected, you know, rocket docket had happened where it was going to the Senate
27:31under UC. Take a listen. The Senate has passed the bill under unanimous consent.
27:47You've been representing survivors for a long time. Did you think we would get here?
27:52Honestly, no. And there's still a lot of work to do, right? This was a really,
27:55really wonderful moment for the survivors. And, you know, there's been so much momentum
27:59and there's been so much push and they're finally seeing something positive. You know,
28:04that's for years and decades. They've had nothing but being wronged and disappointment
28:08and thinking they're going to get justice. And then it's swept under the, you know,
28:11under their feet. So this was a really nice moment. You know, I'm still a bit cautious
28:15about what's going to happen next with Trump, because, as you said, Trump controls the DOJ.
28:20What is actually going to be released? And this is the big question, right?
28:23It is. And, you know, and I also want to say that, you know, I think, you know,
28:26Representative Clay Higgins being the one vote, I thought was really gross. I think he, you know,
28:30ought to be ashamed of himself. You know, this was the one moment, as I've said, they get,
28:33they've been wronged at every step of the way for decades. And they could have had, you know what,
28:38you know what, at least Congress is 100 percent behind us. Then they had to get that one negative
28:42vote. And I think that's sort of demoralizing. But still, this is absolutely a victory.
28:46But now the sort of the real fight has to begin here. Well, that's what is the real? I mean,
28:50how do you see the next part of this? So we know that Pam Bondi is in an unprecedented fashion,
28:56certainly since Watergate. We've never seen an attorney general who is as much a kind of direct
29:00apparatchik of the president. Absolutely. And not even hiding it. It's not like behind closed doors,
29:05like, yes, sir. Thank you, sir. What can I do, you know, in public? He doesn't want to be embarrassed
29:10and he doesn't want people around him to be embarrassed. He also doesn't want,
29:13I don't know what's in those files, frankly. Yeah. I don't think he wants whatever. How do
29:18you see this playing out in terms of what Bondi, what the DOJ does? I think, first of all, they are
29:23going to spend a lot of time reviewing the files, a.k.a. stonewalling them to protect the innocent.
29:31Then they'll say it's the victims, the guys of. Right. But it's really the John's third party
29:36perpetrators, the enablers, and just going through the files. And it's going to take a really long time.
29:42And we know there's over 300 gigabytes. We've only seen 1 percent of them. They've all been
29:46redacted. If you look on the FBI's website right now, it's just redactions, redactions,
29:50redactions. I assume there'll be a lot more of that based on what we've already seen,
29:54freedom of information requests, which any American can do, ask the Department of Justice
29:57or any department agency to hand over documents. They've already started redacting the president's
30:04name from documents that previously had his name. So they've been working on this all summer
30:09already. Well, that's the thing. When you talk about review, right, Eric? I mean,
30:12they have reviewed it. We have, you know, we've got a whistleblower who wrote to the Senate
30:17ranking member of the Senate Judiciary, Dick Durbin, to say, it's crazy over here. They got
30:21them working in shifts, basically. We know that this has all been reviewed. Do you think there's
30:26going to be, how do you think survivors and folks in Congress will react to delay?
30:32I mean, it won't be pretty. I mean, I think they should react the way, you know,
30:35they've been handling things so far is fight, keep fighting, keep putting the pressure on.
30:39What concerns me is Donald Trump has gone through enormous lengths, enormous time and effort to keep
30:45these files private. There has to be a reason. He didn't do that for him because he enjoys keeping
30:49things private. He did that for a reason. No one knows what it is. And my concern is that that hasn't
30:54changed. And while he has made this 180 to show that he wants to be transparent, I think that's
30:59really the result of him seeing the writing on the wall. And now I'm worried about what's going to
31:03happen next. Are we actually going to see full transparency, full exposure, full accountability?
31:09We never have in decades and decades of investigating Jeffrey Epstein. I'm very cautiously
31:16optimistic that we're going to see something. But given what I know and what we all have seen from
31:20this administration, how they've handled the Jeffrey Epstein issue, I'm not confident we're
31:24going to see full transparency. Yeah. Two areas that I'm particularly interested in. One is the Alex
31:28Acosta plea deal. That's the thing that we've never seen any of the files on. We just have no idea
31:32what went on at the Department of Justice in that U.S. attorney's office to get the deal.
31:36The other thing, and Tara, I'd love you to talk about this, is the bizarre international aspect.
31:42Oh, right. I mean, we've got Mohammed bin Salman in at a state dinner tonight.
31:46A friend of Jeffrey Epstein. Yes. And his father, King Salman. There's pictures of them. Ehud
31:51Barak, he was talking to the Russian foreign minister at multiple points.
31:55Sergei Lavrov. Lavrov. He was moving things between different countries. He was a go-between on a
32:00many peace plan. They would call that a hyper fixer in the intelligence world, what he was doing. He was
32:05setting people up and he was useful to intelligence officers. And I actually believe that if these
32:11files are revealed, what we will see is a person who was valuable at one point to the state,
32:18to the DOJ, whether it's from the Bear Stearns case that he was involved in, the Financial Towers case,
32:25the largest Ponzi scheme at that time, $300 million. His partner in that case, Stephen
32:29Hoffenberg, went to prison for the rest of his life. And according to Vicki Ward's reporting,
32:33he provided prosecutors with evidence three times. So I think he might end up being a white
32:40vulture. And that is partially why he has been protected this entire time. And also the Crown.
32:46I mean, the Brits are an ally and there was probably pressure to protect Prince Andrew.
32:53I mean, there's a lot. So all of these sort of international aspects, we'll see if the files
32:56come out and they don't get redacted. But that pressure is going to maintain Eric Fudali
32:59and Tara Palmieri. Thank you very much. Thank you.
33:02Still to come, the MAGA break. What to make of the simmering feud between Donald Trump and his
33:06number one supporter next? Donald Trump spent much of the past week trying to strong arm his party
33:17into voting against the release of the Epstein files. He publicly threatened the Republicans
33:21whipping votes in favor of releasing the files. He made personal calls to some members of the House.
33:25He even brought Colorado Republican Lauren Boeber into the situation room for a meeting with top
33:29Justice Department officials. And yet none of it worked. Today, the House and the Senate passed the
33:34Epstein files bill. Basically, every Republican except for one rejected Trump's demands.
33:38His pressure and jockeying didn't work this time. And at a press conference this morning,
33:43Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene pointed out why.
33:48I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five, no, actually six years for. And I gave him my
33:57loyalty for free. And he called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name
34:03off the discharge petition. Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is a, is an American
34:10that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves the United
34:19States of America and Americans like the women standing behind me.
34:24Jess McIntosh is a veteran Democratic strategist. You're in Carmona's senior correspondent in your
34:29magazine, author of the great new book, Unbearable Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy
34:34in America. They join me now. It's good to have you both here. Let me start with you just on the
34:37Marjorie Taylor Greene aspect. So I want to just take for a second that she's up to something
34:42politically. I think she's probably going to run for president. I think she's made a set of,
34:46I think, fairly interesting and deft tactical choices about how she's going to do that.
34:50That aside, there was something striking to me about how much she has talked about her experience
34:55as a woman and how important accountability is. And the reason that struck me as very important is
35:01it felt to me like there was this huge backlash to me too, that in the last few days feels like
35:07we're like entering the backlash to the backlash period. What do you think?
35:10Chris, I was reflecting on the first time I wrote about the Epstein case. It was March, 2011.
35:15In so many ways, the facts, yes. And I went back and I read it today. And I'm not saying that there
35:22haven't been important revelations, hearing from survivors, things we've gotten from the emails.
35:26So much of this, though, was publicly reported at the time. It was in criminal proceedings in Palm
35:33Beach. And yet, and you have Larry Summers and, excuse me, and Epstein emailing at the peak of Me Too,
35:41not looking afraid at all, not sounding afraid in any way. We have been told so many times that
35:47we're in a moment of reckoning. And yet we keep having to relearn these lessons. We keep having to
35:52start over. And I think I am also very skeptical of Marjorie Taylor Greene right now. But I think
35:58every person should be taken at their word if they sincerely want to actually put actions
36:03behind their political maneuverings. And she was surrounded by survivors.
36:07You heard from them tonight. If this is what the survivors want, I've always thought that there
36:12isn't that much more to, I've always assumed that we already know everything. But Donald Trump is not
36:18acting like we already know everything.
36:19I agree with that. I've had those exact same feelings.
36:22And she has political instincts. And I do think that the unfinished business,
36:26this fact that we're kind of in this groundhog day where we keep having to rediscover how powerful
36:30man act, this two-tier system of justice of which Donald Trump is the prime exemplar,
36:36I think she senses that we're not so ready to move on and pretend that it didn't happen and
36:41normalize this kind of behavior.
36:43Let me play for you also, because I think part of it, too, is a political calculation. That's what
36:47Tara was just saying, right? Like, what do folks in the district think? Here's reporters of ours
36:51talking to some of the people in her district about what they think about her pushing to release
36:56files. Take a listen.
36:59I'm glad she's trying to push to get the files out here in the public, because it should be.
37:04I just don't understand why it's so hush-hush. If it should be public, I'm not going to lie to you.
37:10I think we should know what's going on.
37:12Release them and be done with it, because there's going to be a fight to the end on this one.
37:18I don't know who they're trying to protect. That's all I want to know.
37:23Do you support Marty Taylor Greene's push to make things more transparent, then?
37:28Sure. Sure. Let's bring it out in the open and let the American people decide.
37:33Man, I mean, to what Irene was saying about learning how powerful men operate,
37:38one of the ways that they get away with what they do for as long as they do,
37:42and Donald Trump is a prime example. Jeffrey Epstein is an example of this.
37:46They put powerful women around them who they know will support their efforts,
37:51who will lie for them, who will absorb some of that shock, who they can heap praise on,
37:58and then say, look, I'm showing favor to this woman. I cannot obviously feel terribly about all women.
38:05Trump has done that to a huge extent in every career that he has had, including President Marjorie Taylor Greene
38:12and Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace are all those women.
38:14There are examples of that. That's a great point.
38:17And now we have to deal with the fact that he has actual women. They're not just tokens.
38:21Right.
38:22They're actual women.
38:23With agency who decided to do something.
38:25Like women. It is, I mean, having lived in this world for as long as I have
38:30and watched men operate as long as I have, it is so striking to see the survivors elevated the way that they are,
38:37to see this win. I really didn't expect anything like this today.
38:41To hear Republican voices coming out, like powerful Republican voices coming out.
38:46It's just, I'm not sure that I've ever actually seen a reckoning politically along these lines,
38:52and I have absolutely no idea where it ends.
38:53We played it sound a lot when he was asked in the campaign.
38:56He says, well, less so the Epstein, because you don't know if there's false stuff in there.
38:59He clearly has this kind of both, I think, self-preservation instinct and also this reputational thing.
39:03Well, you can't just have, you know, men, people casting aspersions on men, right?
39:07And to your point, Erin, about, well, I thought we sort of, my instinct was that we sort of knew a lot of this, right?
39:13One of the things that's striking just in the emails that were released is we are learning some new things.
39:17Like, the fact that Larry Summers, the celebrated Harvard economics professor and member of multiple Democratic administrations,
39:25was emailing his pal Jeffrey Epstein for advice on how best to consummate a relationship with the graduate student mentee.
39:36Like, let me go for Jeffrey Epstein, and then recently had to announce he's stepping back from public commitments,
39:41deeply ashamed by the revelations.
39:43He was in that blast radius from just this one little disclosure.
39:48It does make you wonder, like, right, maybe you don't learn more about Trump or whatever,
39:52but, like, there's probably a lot more embarrassment in those files.
39:55Yeah, I mean, I think we learned during Me Too that this is a bipartisan problem.
40:00Only one of the men that Jeffrey Epstein was implicated with is currently the president of the United States.
40:05But, yes, clearly there needs to be some reckoning.
40:07I was an undergrad at Harvard when Larry Summers opined about women's biological abilities.
40:14So it is certainly a rich read to see that he was preying on a woman who was an undergraduate at that same time in economics.
40:24It's sickening how they're talking about her in racist and sexist ways.
40:28And here's the thing, I was told that in Me Too men were being crushed under the boot of feminism.
40:35But this is the peak of Me Too 2017, 2018, and he's just like, how do I get horizontal with Peril,
40:41this sickening racist nickname that he dubbed his mentee.
40:45Let me go ask my buddy Jeffrey Epstein.
40:46Jeffrey Epstein.
40:47Yeah, I think occasionally Republicans will expose the fact that they believe that everybody thinks the way that they do.
40:54Yeah, yes, yes.
40:55And sometimes it is in really disgusting ways.
40:58And this is quite possibly the worst.
41:00I think they really thought that Democrats would, oh, no, might Democrats be in this?
41:05We don't care.
41:06A great point.
41:07That's a great point.
41:08We're going to threaten you with all these other people, so you're going to back off.
41:11It's like, no, yeah, bring it on.
41:12Jess McIntosh.
41:13If you're doing that with children, you're doing that with children.
41:15And it doesn't matter what party you're in.
41:16We're ready.
41:18Let it all hang out.
41:19Jess McIntosh, Erin Carmon, thank you both.
41:21Erin's new book, Unbearable, Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America, is available anywhere you get your books.
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