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Why doctors were recruited for terror; Ex-WHO scientist on India’s air pollution
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00:00Hi there, I'm Sonal Merotra Kapoor, this is Five Live and today we talk about something
00:12that I'm sure has crossed your mind. What goes behind making of a radical terrorist?
00:19Why so many educated people, immaculate English-speaking people are turning radical?
00:26Are they targeted? Do they come from a childhood trauma? What goes behind the psychology of a
00:33terrorist and these modules? We'll get into that along with also bringing you the latest on
00:38pollution, we haven't forgotten about that. And also towards the end we bring you our take
00:44and a reality check on whether or not these air purifiers that you see everybody hanging around
00:48their neck, does it really work? Stay tuned, we'll take you through all of that but first up,
00:53the top story that we're tracking. Now the Redford blast that killed 13 people has taught us one
01:00thing, that the recruitment model or terror groups has changed. Gone are the days when terror handlers
01:06targeted only young, poor or uneducated minds, when recruitment was limited to most marginalised
01:13pockets or when engineering graduates were sought out to build IEDs. Now in the Delhi explosion case,
01:23a new pattern emerged. A major accused including alleged bomber Omar Mohammed are doctors. All of
01:32the major accused in fact. Professionals who swore an oath to save lives, yet investigators say they were
01:38plotting to take them. So the question is, what pushed them down this path? How did mines trained for
01:46healing get radicalised for killing? This isn't the first time, remember, where medical professionals
01:52have been linked to extremist plots? The West has seen similar cases far many times. Analysts note that
02:00extremist groups exploit the fact that doctors move freely, attract less security and also enjoy public
02:06trust. And today an undated video of Omar faced has sort of come out surfaced as well. He's speaking calmly
02:16in fluent English describing suicide bombing as martyrdom, framing mass murder as a path to heaven.
02:25So what transforms these individuals like Omar? What breaks inside a person that turns a healer into a
02:33weapon? Are they born this way? Or do they get transformed? What are the early signs as well of
02:39someone drifting towards extremism? Why do some get radicalised while others really don't? We will try
02:47and find answers to all of these over the next 10 minutes. Let's welcome our guests a little bit.
02:54All right. Joining us very shortly will be Dr. Jayanti Dutta. She's a criminal and sort of clinical
03:00psychologist as well. She helps us get behind the mind of a terrorist to see how exactly do these
03:08modules work. Remember back in the day we used to keep talking about how engineers were targeted.
03:14We've also been told by experts and authorities who are working in the space that there are terror
03:21recruiting cells. Terror recruiting agents who go out and look for targets who they think would make
03:29a good terrorist. So there's a checklist of sorts that comes in. What exactly is that checklist?
03:35We will try and decode on the programme. Also, we'll try and understand why some of the most well
03:42sought out students were targeted. One of them was actually a topper in her class. Did surgery was
03:52teaching as well. Dr. Shaheen. What made her turn into a terrorist that she would go and plot against
04:00something as violent as this, something as inhuman as this as well?
04:16All right. So we look into all those details as well. So what do you see on your screen right now?
04:20Those are some of the research sort of papers we picked up. This one is coming in from author Stephen.
04:27He writes that doctors can buy sensitive supplies like chemicals that also makes them a lucrative
04:35target of sorts. He also talks about Islamist doctors at an advantage of sort of confronting
04:40moderates as well because their interface with people is so much more so much longer as well.
04:48We're also looking at we're also looking at how what happened to the IM model which used to target
04:55engineers. Has that shifted towards doctors as well? We look at all those questions but in just a bit.
05:03Let's move on for the minute to take you through the very latest coming in on air pollution. Now,
05:09India's capital continues to live under a state of emergency and its name is pollution. Delhi's AQI,
05:16in fact, all of North India is still hovering in very dangerous categories, formerly in the severe
05:21category here in the national capital and people are falling sick, battling infections and quite
05:26literally struggling to breathe. Yet there seems to be little urgency to confront this air apocalypse.
05:31Earlier today, I spoke exclusively with former WHO chief scientist, Dr. Soumya Souminathan,
05:38to try and understand pretty blunt and simple, why don't people understand the urgency of air pollution?
05:46Her answer will shock you because she says we need to treat air pollution and attack air pollution like we
05:54attacked COVID. Listen in.
05:59We are truly delighted to have the time with the most respected, one of the most respected medical
06:06scientists in the world. Dr. Soumya Souminathan is here with us. She's a former chief scientist of the
06:11World Health Organization, former director general of the Indian Council of Medical Research as well,
06:16and a pediatrician who has spent four decades of work on child health, infectious diseases,
06:22health systems. Really couldn't think of a better person than you, ma'am, to sort of understand both
06:27what's happening in clinics and also in policy rooms. So let me begin by asking you this. For several years,
06:35you have been speaking about the issue of air pollution. We have been constantly covering it as well.
06:40Why do you think air pollution does not become an urgent health issue, say like COVID or TB? Why is it
06:49now that we know that air pollution will kill more people than the pandemic ever did, than COVID-19 ever
06:55did, or even more than tobacco claims to be taking lives off? Why is it that we don't see it as an urgent
07:04health problem? No, thank you. That's a very important question. And I think a couple of reasons
07:12for that. One is, of course, that air pollution is something which is sort of invisible, though
07:18some days you can definitely see the smog. But even in cities where the air looks like it's okay,
07:24it's actually not okay. And you only know that when you measure and you look at the AQI and you look at the
07:30PM 2.5 and PM 10. So for most people, it may not strike them as a huge, urgent problem. Second is,
07:37it's slow. So you do have severe health effects from air pollution, but they don't happen overnight.
07:43Unlike COVID, where you know, you get sick right away, or you see people around you getting sick.
07:49And of course, a pandemic is something that creates so much of panic and fear. Whereas here, it is slow,
07:55it is invisible, it is acting on our bodies all the time. But it takes years sometimes to see the impact.
08:02Therefore, you don't necessarily make a connection between your exposure to air pollution and the
08:07health problems that you're facing today. So I think that's one reason. The second is that COVID,
08:12for example, everybody knew that it was a pandemic, it was caused by a virus, that the health department
08:18was in charge and had to act and was acting and so on. And everybody else was supporting.
08:22Here, the actions have to happen across many different sectors, industry, agriculture, transport,
08:28construction, solid waste management, indoor cooking fuel. And therefore, you know,
08:34it's almost like a diffused responsibility. And therefore, it sort of gets diluted.
08:38But talking about diffused responsibility, some people still think that pollution is a Delhi problem.
08:45Well, now we have decades of data really, telling us very clearly that this is a North
08:50India problem. It's an Indian metro problem as well. So much so that 10 out of the 15 most polluted
08:56cities in the world are Indian cities. Do you think that narrative also needs to be specified,
09:03needs to be taken to the politicians? You're very right. I would say that air
09:09quality or air pollution is a national problem. The reason is there's a lot of data now. Of course,
09:15we have many more monitors than we used to have in the past. And if any day you pick up the newspaper
09:21and look at the AQI from the different cities around like today's newspaper, for example,
09:26I saw that almost all cities that were reporting were in the red. I've personally been in at least
09:31Bangalore, Bhuvaneshwar, Mumbai, Delhi and Chennai in the last two weeks. And nowhere was the air
09:37quality anything that we could call good. So it's a national problem. It's a rural and an urban problem.
09:44The NCR region, for many reasons, gets a lot of attention and focus, particularly in these winter months,
09:50because there are also climatic variables which make the air circulation very slow and so on. But
09:56that whole Indo-Gangetic plane is impacted. And we have less monitors in rural areas. And so we focus
10:02on cities. In fact, our national clean air program focuses on cities. And so we tend to neglect the
10:07rural areas. But I would say that 95 percent of the country does not have air quality according to
10:14to whether, you know, our own national standards, which is 40 micrograms per cubic meter, let alone
10:21the WHO standards, which is that it should be less than PM 2.5 should be less than five
10:28microgram per meter cube. So we're still far away from that. We need to have a stepwise approach. Of
10:33course, we can't go from where we are to five, but we can go to the WHO intermediate target,
10:39which is less than 35 micrograms per meter cube. But every millimeter difference we make will have an
10:45impact on our health. So it's really important not to get disheartened and say that things are so bad,
10:50we can't do anything. No, we can do and we can bring it down. And every little bit we do will show
10:56good impact on our health. Right. Ma'am, but I want to get down on the question of accountability here.
11:02This is a public health crisis, perhaps the biggest we have seen in India in far too long.
11:09Who do you think should be held accountable here for this health fallout of pollution?
11:14Environment ministry, health ministry, local governments, like where does the buck stop really?
11:21So this is a classical case where I think it is a collective responsibility.
11:25Now, of course, one, one says that one, then next step is, okay, somebody's got to take charge to
11:32coordinate, you know, to have a plan, to have metrics, to have indicators, to have very specific
11:40actions and to follow those through. So I am looking at it something like how we tackled COVID.
11:46We had an empowered committee of secretaries. How did we do Swach Bharat mission? How are we doing
11:53the Jal Jeevan mission? These are massive national programs where, you know, we've set very ambitious
11:58targets. We've, we've got, and we've achieved most of them. So I feel that it is possible to do, but
12:07because it's an, it's a topic where you have to have action across, you need financing, you need good
12:13governance, and there needs to be an empowered group of people that's actually at the top monitoring
12:19what is happening. And now I think that we have enough data, and we have enough airshed analysis,
12:23and we have enough science-backed solutions. So we are not short of solutions or anything,
12:28but we need very strict enforcement and implementation.
12:32A select committee, that sounds like a good idea. We really hope the government sort of takes that up
12:37as well. Ma'am, I also want to understand from you a little bit of what the future looks like here.
12:43If pollution levels remain the same, what do you think will be India's disease profile
12:50looking like in the next 10 years? Are we heading into a silent sort of chronic disease epidemic of
12:57sorts? Very, very unaware, very, very complacent in handling air pollution?
13:04So over the years, as we've seen the risk factors for health, you know, we,
13:07there's this analysis that's done every couple of years. Air pollution has been steadily climbing up
13:14as a major risk factor for health. And other things like water and sanitation and all those,
13:19many of the infectious diseases, those are, you know, we've done well on them, and they've gone
13:23down the list. So the number one is dietary risks, the food, the nutrition that we get. That's the number
13:29one risk factor for health in India today. The number two risk factor is air pollution. And this is
13:35contributed to by many sectors, but also by indoor household air pollution, that is by burning of
13:41solid mass. We know that many people are still using biomass for cooking and for heating, and also
13:47waste burning happening all over the country, big source of pollution, which is often neglected. So
13:54it is a number two cause of, and if you look at cancer deaths today, lung cancer, smoking has gone
13:59down, but pollution has increased as a cause for lung cancer among nonsmokers. If you look at COPD,
14:05chronic lung disease, heart attacks, even dementia, diabetes, you know, there's more and more data
14:12linking air pollution to all of these chronic diseases. And we know India has a young population,
14:17we talk about our demographic dividend, and the fact that this is a huge economic asset for us. Well,
14:23don't address air pollution, we're going to have an unhealthy population and we're going to lose
14:29that demographic dividend. So I think this is something which has huge economic and public
14:35health importance. And if we address it, we will see the gains very, very quickly.
14:41But what is the best way to address it then? You talked about a select committee. Is there one policy
14:46implementation that you would like India to get in as well? If you had the power, say, to implement
14:53one policy that would really cut down India's pollution burden and, you know, dramatically so,
14:59what would you say? You see, I would say that we have to implement the policies we have.
15:07We do have an act, a Clean Air Act, you know, which specifies certain emission norms. All industries are
15:14supposed to, you know, have the real-time monitoring of their emission norms and the pollution control
15:20boards actually do have access to such data. So that's a big source, we know. But so is construction.
15:27Again, we have norms for what the construction industry is supposed to do to reduce the dust.
15:32Similarly, we know that transport, you know, the older the vehicle, the more the emissions,
15:36we have the standards for the BS-6 and so on. But we also need investment in more public transport,
15:41particularly with clean energy, with electric buses and so on. So, you know, other cities and
15:47other countries have done it. We can really just take the lessons from there, of course, adapt it and
15:53contextualize it. But like I said, we've got to get very serious about acting. Beijing did that. You
16:01know, Beijing was the worst city in the world. You couldn't look out of your window and see anything.
16:05It was that thick a smog. London has done it before. Mexico City has done it. Los Angeles has done it.
16:11So, and there are cities in India that have made a very good start towards it. So I think that we have
16:17the solutions. But the implementation is key. And there we need everyone to come together, you see.
16:25By everyone, I mean all political parties must come together. Citizens and governments must come
16:30together. Centre and state governments must come together. And sometimes you have to also work with
16:35other countries. Because the Indo-Gangetic Plain, we have Nepal, we have Bangladesh, we have Bhutan,
16:42we have Pakistan on this side. So there are common elements, you know, that need to be addressed if we
16:47need. Because air doesn't stop at any boundaries, national or state. But we can start with a national plan.
16:54And then we do have also a plan that was developed a few years ago, which was for the countries of the
17:00Indo-Gangetic, you know, with the bordering region. So there is a plan for that as well. And there are
17:05goals that have been set for 2035. So there are many things which have already started. I think the
17:11thing is really to come together now and agree to work together to address this.
17:18There is a chance to make it happen. It's a point of getting everybody together and forming that
17:23working group, just like we did for COVID. Will that happen? Well, we wait to see. But sticking
17:27with air pollution. Now there's a new trend taking over North India these days, as the city chokes under
17:34toxic air, of air purifiers that you can wear like a necklace. These are portable devices that promised
17:41of a personal bubble to keep your air space or your breathing space at least clean. But the big question
17:48is, do they really work? I did a reality check, spoke to some doctors, spoke to some scientists,
17:53looked at research and also tried it out myself. This is what I found.
17:57This internet advice is not a doctor's advice. Pollution is at its peak. Toxic air is going in our
18:09lungs. Not much can be done about it. But can you and I devise a toolkit every time the air goes bad?
18:17This is what some of the best doctors in the country are telling us. Number one, wear your N95 mask
18:24always. I've only taken it off to record this. Also ensure that your air purifiers have HEPA filter,
18:31not any other filter.
18:32If you live in North India or Delhi, you must have seen this little air purifier ad. It's everywhere.
18:48But does this really work?
18:50Let's look at science. Let's look at what research and what doctors have to say about it.
19:04First up, how does this really work? What is the technology? It releases a negatively charged iron
19:11that they claim attaches itself to pollution particles, makes them heavier and pushes them
19:17out of your breathing zone. This in no way is filtering the air. It's simply trying to push
19:23the particles away from your breathing zone. We spoke to the company about the research and they
19:29shared three research papers with us. IIT Kanpur has also tested it. But out of the three tests,
19:36two tests were done indoors. And unless you are an astronaut, you are not wearing this indoors.
19:43You won't be able to test it. This is an outdoor product. In that outdoor study,
19:49they found roughly 40% reduction in pollution. What about doctors then?
19:55Well, Dr. Anurag Agarwal, who is the Dean of Biosciences and Health Research at Ashoka University,
20:02he says the device works better for larger particles like incense smoke. But the evidence
20:09is much weaker for typical urban pollution. He also says that for fine particulate matter,
20:15a proper N95 mask would clearly be better. We also spoke to a pulmonologist, Dr. Vivek Nangya
20:23at Max Hospital Delhi. He said that most tests for this device were done in controlled environments,
20:30and that the most toxic particles are smaller than 0.1 microns, which might not be affected by this.
20:38So, what's the bottom line? Well, this is no way a replacement for your N95 or N99 mask.
20:46This is also not a replacement for your air purifiers with HEPA filter. What this does
20:52at best is that it gives you an extra layer of protection when you are walking around in an
20:58already purified air. So, buy it only for that benefit, if at all. Also remember,
21:05when it comes to your body, trust science and doctors, not just Instagram ads.
21:10All right, at the end of the day, your N95 or N99 mask and your air purifiers with HEPA filter,
21:20that's still your best bet to protecting yourself and your younger ones in the house against pollution.
21:26Thank you so much for watching. That's all we could catch in. I'll see you tomorrow. Bye.
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