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Wer bezahlt für die Wiederbewaffnung Europas? Schirdewan & Terras bei The Ring
In der zweiten Folge von The Ring diskutieren wir die Wiederbewaffnung Europas – ein geopolitisches Ziel der Europäischen Kommission.
LESEN SIE MEHR : http://de.euronews.com/2025/11/13/wer-bezahlt-fur-die-wiederbewaffnung-europas-schirdewan-terras-bei-the-ring
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In der zweiten Folge von The Ring diskutieren wir die Wiederbewaffnung Europas – ein geopolitisches Ziel der Europäischen Kommission.
LESEN SIE MEHR : http://de.euronews.com/2025/11/13/wer-bezahlt-fur-die-wiederbewaffnung-europas-schirdewan-terras-bei-the-ring
Abonnieren Sie! Euronews gibt es in 12 Sprachen.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' brand new debating show broadcasting from the
00:14European Parliament here in Brussels. Once a week, two elected members of the European Parliament
00:20go face to face on some of the most pressing issues of our time. This week we zoom in on
00:26the topic of rearming Europe and ask the crucial points who will pay.
00:34Europe wants to rearm fast. Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, EU countries have been
00:40pouring billions into defence. The upside? A European Union that is more secure and less
00:47dependent on the US. Supporters argue that a bigger defence industry also means more jobs
00:54and a stronger geopolitical role for Europe. The downside? The cost. Critics say that every
01:00euro spent on tanks and drones is one euro less for schools, hospitals or climate action.
01:08So the question isn't just how much to spend, but how to spend. Can Europe find a balance?
01:14But can Europe find a balance? That is the question we have for our contenders. Let's meet them.
01:26Rio Teres, Estonian army general and member of the European Parliament for the EPP Centre-Rite Group.
01:34Vice President of the Security and Defence Committee. A cheerleader for defence spending, he has stated,
01:40what we need is for the market to provide the necessary quantities of ammunition, missiles
01:46and various defence equipment. Martin Scherdewan, co-chair of the left group in the European Parliament.
01:55He strongly criticises shifting money away from social programmes to defence. His verdict on the
02:02European Commission's Rearm Europe Plan was blunt. Investing billions in war will not make the world safer
02:10or more peaceful, he said. Rio Teres and Martin Scherdewan, welcome to The Ring. The idea here is to give
02:19our viewers a taste of your debates inside the European Hemicycle. So I hope you feel right at home.
02:25Rio Teres, let's start with you. You say the market should be providing defence equipment,
02:30but with tight budgets, who should pay? The nations should pay. But nations are broke.
02:35Nations aren't broke. They have been able to spend money on many other things. For example, climate change.
02:43At the current moment, where the war is imminent in Europe, we need to get stronger because Europe has
02:49not spent enough in the last 35 years. We are not talking about arms race. We are talking about
02:57fulfilling the promises we have made ourselves many years ago. But where is that money going to come from?
03:04Well, as Rio said, for now it's coming from the public budget. And this is, of course, a problem because
03:09every euro invested into the arms manufacturers will not go into, for instance, hospitals, schools, digital
03:18infrastructure or the necessary transition of our industry. So this is a huge problem. I would suggest
03:25that we take the money from those who have it, that we discuss new own resources for the European budget.
03:32And that means that we tax the rich, that we tax multinational enterprises, and that we also
03:37discuss something like a digital taxation for big tech companies. Would you agree with this idea?
03:41No, not at all. I think the defence is still a prerogative of the nations and not the European Union as a whole.
03:48So the nations themselves need to fulfil their own promises. And if somebody tells me that it is not
03:55possible to build up a social state and invest in the defence, that's wrong because history has shown us
04:01that German Federal Republic of Germany during many years in the Cold War was able to build up one of the
04:08most capable social systems in the world. At the same time, they invested 3.5% on the GDP on defence,
04:15because it is necessary and people understood why. What about the idea of defence euro bonds, Martin
04:20Schrodoven? Well, first of all, we don't have a Marshall Plan today for the European Union, European
04:25Defence, because you were referring to Germany. That was the case back in the day. So there were huge
04:29investments coming from the international community to Germany. But this is not the case today. So we need to
04:35really think about how to raise money. And you mentioned euro bonds for the arms industry. I don't think
04:40that this is a good idea because we are already on the way to take on more debts by giving loans to the
04:47member states that they can then invest into the into military purposes. So I do not think that this is a good
04:54idea to go on following this wrong path. I think we are derailing the discussion here. It's not about to spend money
05:01on healthcare systems or defence. It's about defending Europe, because we see that an aggressive Russia
05:08is willing and able to use conventional military weapons against countries. And Putin has very often
05:16declared that he wants to rearrange the security system in Europe. And if we are not ready, if we don't
05:21fulfil our own taken tasks, then we are not able to defend Europe as a whole and separate countries of it.
05:29And Martin, that is a fair point, what Rio Terrace makes there. Because just think of Brussels,
05:33just the other day, the airport was shut down for 30 minutes because of drone incursions,
05:38allegedly Russian drone incursions buzzing over Dool, the nuclear plant, right by the port of Antwerp.
05:44Brussels had to call the UK in order to come and help, but wasn't able to defend itself in this
05:48situation. Yeah, exactly. That was supposedly a Russian drone. We don't know that yet. Well,
05:52I'm not defending Russia here. Maybe it was Russia. Maybe it was the third country. Maybe it was a
05:56private here. Who knows? But obviously, Europe is tested also in the military, in its military
06:01capabilities. So, of course, we need to do something in order to discuss how to defend the
06:06European Union, how to defend the member states, in case there would be a violation of international
06:11law, meaning an attack against one of the member states. This is not the case so far,
06:15so we can take time, but just a little bit to discuss how to spend wisely the money that we have at
06:21our hands into defense. And a new security order does not only depend on defense capabilities,
06:27it also depends on how we implement international law, how we strengthen international organizations.
06:34And this is something that I'm really missing, especially in the discussion of the conservatives.
06:38Reaction to that?
06:40I agree that there are all other mechanisms there, but the one and the only which really
06:45is understood by Putin is if you have more weapons than him, he has. So, it is very easy for me,
06:53very plain. If you are strong enough, then he will start to negotiate. If you are not strong,
06:58he will laugh about you as he has done throughout the years in the last two decades.
07:03And are you pleased with the trends lately? We've seen defense spending has gone up in the past few years,
07:08Rio Terrace. According to Eurostat, between 2021 and 2024, the total defense spending of
07:15of the EU countries rose by 37 percent. Whereas when it comes to social protection,
07:20it only rose by a tiny bit. How do you feel when you read this data, Martin Sherdovan?
07:26Yeah, well, I think this is completely out of line, this development. I mean,
07:30Rio referred to Russia and the threat Russia poses to the European Union. This is always the
07:35explanation why we have to spend more and more and more money into our defense capabilities. But I think
07:41actually that we really need to discuss what that means. What is your solution then to protect
07:48Europe? Imagine if there was potentially an invasion, if an EU member state was. If we have a look at the
07:53numbers, let's take a look at the numbers. NATO is spending nine or 10 times what Russia is spending for
07:58for its defense and military capabilities. Even the European NATO member states spend four times what
08:05Russia spends. So there is no rational explanation why we should again spend more and more.
08:09But what about Russia's nuclear arsenal? They have 5,500 nuclear. They have that for decades now.
08:16That is no new development, right? How can we deter against that threat?
08:20The problem is that we have been spending less and less and less throughout the last 30 years.
08:25It's not about we are spending more. It's about starting to spend at all. Because the defense
08:32spendages, if you look from 1990 to 2020, then you will see how much we have lost, how big period of
08:41time we have lost. Because we have not invested what we promised ourselves. It's not about 5%, 10%,
08:47it's about just 2%. It's exactly the same amount of money that Estonia saved introducing the digital
08:55government system. Is it possible to find the balance, do you think?
08:59It would be possible if you would look for other resources. And as I said, we need to discuss
09:04the introduction of new own resources. And now we have the discussion with the
09:08Mighty Annual Financial Framework, which allows us to look at new own resources. And this, for me,
09:12of course, means that we need to redistribute wealth in the society. If we have those challenges in front
09:18of us and we need to tackle them, I agree. We need to tackle the challenges. But that's not going to
09:22happen. That's not going to happen. I mean, the budget talks have already kicked off in Brussels.
09:26We can see how torturous they are. The strength of European Union lies also on competitiveness.
09:32And if we start to introduce new taxes and distribute wealth, which we don't have right now, because we
09:38are not in the very good economical situation, then we will have less money to spend on defense. So we
09:46we need to make Europe competitive again, which it's not right now. And at the same time, we need to
09:52invest and not the European Union, but the countries need to invest what they have promised to their
09:58defense. But then, Rio, really, you need to mention that because you're not doing that. Then I will do it.
10:04Each euro invested into arms manufacturers means that there is no money left for social cohesion,
10:11for instance. And this will cause a new wave of austerity in Europe, which in the end means that
10:17those who have the least suffer the most. Working class families will pay for this arms race that you
10:23are advocating for. Well, that conflict is not existent. We see in Estonia, the government decided to spend
10:29five percent on the GDP on defense and the Estonian mothers want the mother care as well. But the
10:35people are supporting it by 80 percent because they understand the urgency of the situation.
10:39And you don't need social services in Russia, because as we see in Donetsk, Russia does not give
10:46you social services. He kills your people, your children and all so on. So it's not comparable.
10:51But this is not Russia. This is the European Union and people are used to relying on this.
10:55This is not the discussion. But our citizens expect us to invest into
10:59public services and social security systems and they are rightfully doing so. And make sure that
11:03the country exists. Yes, they do exist. At the moment where it is attacked by Russia,
11:09it is not forgiven. And that is the discussion about. Well, let me stop you there, as it is now time
11:15to take the gloves off. Now, I want to give our viewers a real taste of the European Parliament
11:26chambers, where MEPs fire hard questions at each other. That means Rio Terrace and Martin
11:32Schrodoven will now have the opportunity to challenge each other directly, just like you do
11:37in the hemicycle. So Martin Schrodoven, can you start, please? Rio, we met before and you often say that
11:44this war in Ukraine will be won on the battlefields. Now then, since Trump engaged in
11:52whatsoever diplomatic efforts and even Ursula von der Leyen changed her language, do you still
11:57believe that this war will be won on the battlefield while Russia is advancing? Or do you agree with me
12:02that we need to ramp up our diplomatic efforts to end this war? Well, I have always been in the
12:09position and think that dialogue is the best way. But dialogue needs two sides. If one side is not
12:16willing to talk, you can do whatever you want. Putin will not come back to the table if we are not
12:22strong enough. And right now, Putin does not think we are strong enough and we are not supporting Ukraine
12:28in the numbers we really need to do. Yes, the war is won at the battlefield. And Putin invaded a country,
12:34and it seems like he is literally getting away with it. Rio Teres, it is your opportunity now to
12:38address the question to Martin Schrodoven. In response to that, are you really sure that the
12:44known war criminal, Putin, is willing to come to the negotiation table in the situation where he has
12:54not listened to any discussions beforehand? And why do you think so? And should we sit with the four
13:01war criminal at one table? Well, we need to end this war. This should be the objective here,
13:05not judging that war criminal. I agree. He is a war criminal, but we need to end this war.
13:11And therefore, we need to discuss how to... So, discussion with the war criminal is legal.
13:13Please, let me answer. Please, let me reply. And therefore, we need to end this war. And therefore,
13:18we need to think about how to do it. And I think there are several options on the table. First,
13:22engaging in a more coordinated diplomatic effort, like including also in taking on board China,
13:31who wields a huge influence over Russia, and also India. Russia is dependent on,
13:36economically dependent on India. So, we need to take them on board. And then, of course,
13:40we need to target the sanctions. We have a sanctions regime in place, but we need to be more precise in
13:46targeting the industrial military complex of Russia. Do you endorse the fact that Viktor Orban,
13:51the Prime Minister of Hungary, and the Slovakian Robert Fijo, have the lines still directly open
13:56to Moscow and Beijing? Do I endorse that Trump invited Putin to Anchorage, Alaska? Well,
14:04what can I say about that? He did that. And he kicked off, as hard as it is to admit for European
14:10politicians, he kicked off a process that might, in the end, eventually lead to an end, diplomatic
14:18end of the war. We will see if this happens or not. But he kicked off something new.
14:22Would you agree with that? It's naive. It's naive to think that Putin comes to the table. All attempts
14:30of Trump, of Wanderlion, many presidents have called, everybody has called him. He doesn't care
14:36about it, because he feels that he's strong enough to go on with the war. Time for you to address your
14:42next question to Martin Cherdovan. Yeah. Putin announced that he wants to rearrange the world
14:47in order to say what it was in 1997. So coming to the discussion table, would you really think that
14:55NATO should withdraw from the Baltic states, from Finland and Sweden, etc., from Poland even,
15:02or even from the Eastern Germany, in order to please Putin and bring him to the discussion table?
15:09But Rio, I never said something like that. I never said something like that. But what I'm proposing is
15:15that we work on a stable international security order. And of course, NATO plays a role in that. But we
15:22need to take into consideration security guarantees for many political actors now, like China, like
15:28India, like Russia, like European Union, and of course, the United States. But that means to rethink
15:34a stable international order. And we are far from that, because the European Commission doesn't play
15:39any geopolitical role. Your chance to address the question now to Rio. All right. So we already
15:47touched upon the question of financing our expenditure for military purposes. And you are advocating for
15:56using public money, the public budget, which, as I already explained, will lead to austerity,
16:01a new wave of austerity. Would you agree with me that we need new sources to raise money if we want to
16:10tackle our challenges both at international level and internally at the social level?
16:16No, I think we should invest more wisely. We should try to cooperate more. We should try to make
16:23our defense industry more effective, so that for every euro, we will get more impact. But never, I would
16:30agree with more taxes on European citizens. No, not on citizens. He's referring to tax the rich.
16:38Tax the rich. But as far as I know, the rich are the citizens of Europe as much as the poor.
16:44Well, then let's tax U.S., American and Chinese big tech companies.
16:51Would you be in favor of that? Well, I would say competitiveness is not won by taxes. It's by
16:58investing in the new technologies and by making ourselves stronger, not trying to get money from
17:03the others. Look, we have heard now from Martin Shurdovan and Rio Terras and I'd like to bring in
17:09a new voice now. The EU Council President, Antonio Costa, has been making headlines of late for his
17:19ambitious statements on the future of European defense. Speaking to EU heads of state and government
17:25recently, he said, to build the Europe of defense, we need efficient political oversight and coordination.
17:32And he said, our defense ministers need to play an increased role. Martin, how do you interpret
17:37this statement? Is it the first step towards a European defense union or may I add an EU army?
17:42Yeah, well, he hasn't been very clear about that. But what I think he is right about is that we
17:48really need to coordinate better. So for now, we are just discussing imaginary figures that the European
17:53Commission came up with based on no assessment of whatsoever we really need. Is there an appetite,
17:58why is Rio Terras to coordinate? I mean, the EU and NATO together and industry, of course, together,
18:02because they're all competing?
18:03Yeah, well, I think NATO has put requirements on the on the countries of members of NATO,
18:10which most of which are part of the European Union. So we have the requirements. We know the numbers.
18:15But yes, I think the coordination between the ministers of defense is important
18:19in order to enable Commissioner Kobilius to work with them together, better solutions for our own defense.
18:28And where is the market hedging its best? Because we remember a few years ago, everyone in Brussels
18:33was discussing the European Green Deal as the growth model. Now it's all about defense.
18:36We should be balanced. We should not focus in one and then another. We should do both. We should be
18:42social state also. I agree. But it needs to be balanced. This week, COP30 is taking place. How can we
18:48rearm Europe by 2030 and also go green? This is not going to happen with the proposal that the
18:53Commission just made for the multi-financial framework for the EU budget. It's focusing solely on armament,
18:59rearmament Europe, and not focusing on the Green Deal anymore. Your party family wants to get rid of the
19:04Green Deal. And it's also putting into question the social state of Europe. The biggest threat
19:09to sustainability of Europe is if Russia attacks European countries. And again, it's always Russia.
19:17It is. It is. Today, backed by China. Not believing in naive thinking that China will be on our side.
19:25Never. A communist country will never be on European side. Because we are democracies and we are defending
19:30here democracy. The reason why Russia attacked Ukraine in 2022 and 14 was because Ukraine wanted
19:39to have an association agreement with the European Union. It's not about NATO. It's about free will of a
19:44free country. It is time now to take a short break here on The Ring, but stay with us. We will be back
19:48very, very soon with some more political punch.
19:59Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' new weekly show. I'm joined by MEPs Martin Schroederman from the left
20:07and Rio Terras from the European People's Party. And the idea here is to bring the European Parliament's
20:12debates to your couch. So what about you? What do you think about the EU's drive to pump up defence?
20:18Well, according to EU data, 78% of Europeans are indeed concerned about the EU's defence
20:26insecurity in the next five years. That's 8 in 10 Europeans. How do you feel about that?
20:32Well, I can understand that. Obviously, the international order is in turmoil. And of course,
20:37we need to provide also to our citizens stability. And that also means defence stability.
20:43What you're saying is very similar to what the head of the EPP said this week. He said,
20:46alone and naked, we stand in a world of storms. Yeah, well, it only shows that I'm right. We need
20:52to spend more in defence and try to do it clever. What do your voters think? Well,
20:58our voters, my voters back home understand the necessity. We understand it already since 2010,
21:04as Estonia was spending 2% of the GDP on defence, as we promised to NATO. Today,
21:10it's 5% plus which we invest. But the Estonia's problem with 1 million people is that our 100%
21:18is too small. And we need to make sure that countries like Germany, France, Spain,
21:24and Italy spend the same. You're praising, of course, your country of Estonia, which is obviously
21:29your job as an MEP, but it's a much smaller country. Other countries like your in Germany,
21:33much bigger challenges in this area. Yeah, well, the 5% target of the NATO
21:38means that Germany has to spend hundreds of millions into the military. And this is, of course,
21:44a huge burden, both for the public budget, but also for the citizens. And this is debated very
21:51controversially in Germany. And I actually, I do not agree with that, because the amount of money
21:56will only lead to cuts in public services and social security. And this is unacceptable.
22:00So citizens are not really on board with this plan? 80% of the people in Europe.
22:04They are not that clearly in Germany. I mean, they are concerned.
22:08They are in Germany also. It's not that German public is against defence spending. That's not true.
22:13I think they're concerned when it comes to the money coming from their pocket.
22:16Well, that's always the case. And that's why democracy works. You elect
22:20people who take decisions for you. And then next time you elect the other people.
22:24That is too easy. That is too easy, Leo, because that means actually that public money,
22:28meaning taxpayers' money, meaning our money and the working class family's money,
22:33goes directly into the pockets of the big shareholders of the arms manufacturers.
22:37This is not that easy. And people are discussing that. We have to be honest there.
22:40It makes Europe stronger. It makes Europe stronger.
22:43Can you name a single situation where a world power without military backing has changed history?
22:51But Martin Sheridan is right. The arms industry will get much richer.
22:54But will ordinary citizens benefit too?
22:57We should use more SMEs. We should get the money.
22:59Then we should tax them. Then we should tax them.
23:01Yeah.
23:02But you don't agree with that idea.
23:03We should not tax the big ones, but we should make sure that the money comes to the SMEs,
23:12to the small technology companies, which right now are disrupting the battlefield in Ukraine.
23:18We need to get the big money, not to the big primes, but to the SMEs who are creating working
23:25space, who are creating jobs for the ordinary people who can earn more money.
23:31The money comes back to you if you are clever enough.
23:33It's a wishful thinking, do you think, Martin Sheridan, this idea to rearm Europe by 2030?
23:38No, not really wishful thinking, because there are huge investments on the way.
23:42And I agree with the idea that we need to be capable to defend ourselves.
23:47But as also Rio now confirmed, we need to spend the money more wisely in order to address the new
23:52challenges, cyber attacks, drone warfare, etc. And we have to be very precise in our assessment,
23:57what we need as a society, as European society. And that assessment hasn't been done yet.
24:03And I do completely disagree. That's why I do completely disagree with the proposals on the table.
24:08And Rio, how are you convincing other countries? Because of course, Estonia is very close to Russia.
24:13You feel the threats every day. Countries though, like Spain, Italy, Greece,
24:16they have other issues on their minds, like migration, for example.
24:19Well, the war criminal Putin is helping us always. If I have difficulties to convince somebody,
24:24he would attack somebody. And the events in Brussels airport recently show us that everybody is
24:32endangered. Everybody, from Spain to Portugal, everywhere. And we need to understand that the
24:38migration is not an existential threat. Migration is a threat to your way, to our way of life,
24:44to our economy. But war is an existential threat. And that is the difference.
24:49Final reaction to that. Would you agree?
24:51Yeah, well, I really don't get that. I mean, how can you say that migration? You put it all in one
24:56basket. You put it all in one basket. There is no clear political line. Why do you bring now
25:02migrants? I was not putting it all in one basket. I was just highlighting the challenges and the issues
25:07facing other member states. But it is now time to move on to our fifth and final round. Are you ready?
25:19Now it is time for something different. I'm going to ask you a set of questions,
25:23and I require a yes or no answer. Is this doable?
25:27I hope so. Let's find out. Let's find out. Should the EU develop its own nuclear deterrence strategy?
25:34Yes or no? No. No. Can the EU ever be a military power? Yes or no? It is. Yes. What about military
25:45conscription? Is this a good idea? Yes or no? I have my doubts. Conscription is the only way for small
25:52countries. I don't know about big ones. Should EU countries spend at least two percent of their
25:56GDP on defense? Well, it depends on what we actually need. So I would say let's look into it. Yes, of
26:05course. Not even more. Is Russia's threat big enough to justify the current surge in spending? No. Russia
26:11is not justified to do anything at the moment, I think. Yes, it is. Will Europe ever be military
26:16independent from the United States? Yes or no? Yes. Yes. Should the EU funds be used to subsidize
26:24weapons? Yes or no? Yes. No. It is not allowed by the European treaties, by the way. Even though it
26:30is on the cards? Yeah. Should taxpayers accept higher public debt to fund military buildup? In separate
26:37countries, yes. No. Should EU defense projects prioritize European companies only, even if it raises costs?
26:43Yes or no? No. At the current moment, we need to take whatever is available in the world.
26:48Same question to you? Yeah, we should prioritize European industry, yes. And what about drones? Is the
26:54future of warfare on drones? No, on people. Well, the future is on peace. Final question. Have you
27:02have you agreed with anything that Martin Sherdogan has said here? Yes, that we need to be smarter in
27:07spending on defense. What about you? Well, no, I have my difficulties to find something that I
27:14agree with that you just said. But at least we have brought you together here on The Ring. Martin,
27:20Sherdogan and Rio Taras, thank you so much for being on The Ring. Thank you so much. And thank you so much
27:24for watching. If you have a comment for us, do reach out. TheRing at Euronews.com. That is our email
27:31address. Tell us how you feel about the EU's focus on defense. Thanks for watching and see you soon.
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