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00:00This was a cold and calculated murder.
00:16There's always a breaking point in an investigation.
00:24The timeline of events didn't add up.
00:30It was crucial we supported our family contact.
00:44I just felt boom, boom on my face.
00:47And I remember just being so still.
00:50And I felt it three times.
00:53And then I heard the doctor say, he's gone.
00:56What struck us was, it's the fact that all the people involved, from the victim to the suspects, are under the age of 18.
01:03Nobody wins in these situations.
01:07The family of the deceased, Chiron, will suffer forever.
01:11It's very sad that all you take back from Manchester is a cardboard box with your son's belongings in it.
01:16I first met the Webb family when I was tasked to support them, following the tragic news that their son, Chiron Webb, aged 15, had been stabbed.
01:34From that moment, I became their point of contact in a murder investigation.
01:41My name is Sarah Marsden, and I'm a family liaison officer, referred to as a FLO.
01:46And I was the family liaison officer in the case of Chiron Webb.
01:51Family liaison officer is the person specially trained to be the link person between a major incident team who is involved in a murder or a manslaughter.
02:01So you support the family through the process of the investigation and then the judicial system at the end.
02:07My job primarily is a police officer, so I am there to investigate, but I'm also there to support the family through this crisis.
02:18It's a death, it's somebody's loved one, and it's still traumatic.
02:23On the 18th of October, I came on duty, and I was informed that a young 15-year-old boy had been stabbed.
02:40My name is Stuart Wilkinson.
02:42In 2017, I was a senior investigating officer with Greater Manchester Police, also known as an SIO.
02:48I was responsible for leading the investigation into the murder of Chiron Webb.
02:54He got called in on the 999 call via one of the residents on the housing estates in Mostyn, which is a town within the suburbs of Greater Manchester.
03:03Responding to the 999 call, response officers would have got the blue lights on and got there as soon as possible to see if any medical treatment would be required.
03:12The 999 call would have been diverted to the ambulance staff as well to ensure that they can get on scene as soon as possible.
03:18The 999 call was found on the floor, unconscious, on the junction of Whistler Avenue in Mostyn.
03:25Quite a built-up area, lots of houses, and not too far from a main arterial route into Manchester.
03:32The police officers straight away saved life and limb to start with, treated the victim.
03:37He had a stab wound to his chest.
03:40He also had a stab wound to his back.
03:43Chiron was driven to Manchester Old Infirmary.
03:45Very quickly, more patrols came.
03:48They would have recognised the fact that they really need to cordon the scene off to try and make it as sterile as possible.
03:54It was on the junction of a housing estate, so difficult to manage because they had to cordon off busy roads and the junction itself.
04:01We need to ensure that we can preserve the evidence so that we can get those forensics which may assist us in the investigation.
04:08After I picked the investigation up, I went to the City of Manchester Division for a briefing around half past nine to get a better prognosis of the 15-year-old's condition.
04:19I was informed that Chiron was very ill and more than likely to die because he'd had 60 minutes of oxygen starved to his brain.
04:29That's why, albeit he hadn't died at the time, we treated this investigation as a murder investigation.
04:35A family liaison is one of the first resources that we request.
04:38We definitely need them on day one of the investigation because one of the main focuses is to try and find out who the victim is.
04:45I once found out, we need to go and speak to the family to try and get as much information as we can about the victim.
04:52I deployed the family liaison officer, which was Sarah.
04:56Hello, PC Sarah Marsden.
04:58Yes, yes.
04:59The 15-year-old, Moston Lane, to stabbing.
05:02Yeah, OK, I'll go meet the family at the hospital.
05:08On the 18th of October, I had gone on shift, my normal duty.
05:17I was on call as a family liaison officer, which meant that you were on standby for any incidents coming in overnight.
05:24I'd arrived in work probably about half past six.
05:27I put my uniform on.
05:29That particular morning, I was having a new student officer come to work with me.
05:33So I was preparing myself for the first day.
05:37I got a phone call, which basically just tells me very few facts.
05:42A 15-year-old boy had been stabbed overnight, and he was on the coronary care heart unit at Manchester Royal Infirmary.
05:50I was asked to go and meet the family, introduce myself, and take it from there.
05:55I have to change out of my uniform because family liaison officers tend to work in plain clothes.
06:01It breaks down barriers, and it's more appropriate.
06:05So I go to the hospital.
06:09My job primarily is a police officer, so I am there to investigate, but I'm also there to support the family through this crisis.
06:19And my ability is, due to my nursing background, I can differentiate between the two and offer support.
06:31Kyron was on a ventilator.
06:34He effectively, at that point, was brain dead.
06:37Whilst I'm at the hospital, the investigation team, the major incident team, are continuing with the inquiries.
06:44The crime scene, it was outside people's houses.
06:49We wanted to do some house to house because clearly it's all about identifying witnesses who may have seen the incident.
06:54We identified people who had heard a commotion outside their homes.
06:59One of the residents described how Kyron was lent up against the fence and seemed to be struggling from some injuries.
07:05There were witnesses that had heard something, but nobody had actually directly seen the attack.
07:10And there's a whole host of different resources that are required.
07:16My team is full of detectives.
07:18They'll be allocated out different roles, mainly for outside inquiries to start with,
07:22so we can understand and gather as much evidence as possible, such as through house to house and CCTV.
07:28And I liaised with the crime scene manager.
07:30We discussed together some of the forensic testing that we needed to consider,
07:35that there was cars in the street, had the suspect touched the car,
07:38and was there going to be a fingerprint there or DNA transfer.
07:41The knife had been used, and one of the main things that we wanted to focus on was
07:45how we could actually see if we could find that knife.
07:48We then deployed specialist search teams to look in gardens, grids, all different areas,
07:54that potentially a knife could have been discarded.
07:57They found that that could have some key DNA or forensics on it
08:01that could link the suspect to the scene and if it had blood of Kyron.
08:05But, yeah, it's been to numerous scenes where we've had to make some fast-track decisions
08:10to get an understanding and a grip of the investigation.
08:14An incident like this in the middle of a built-up area
08:17clearly causes shockwaves within the community.
08:20Nobody wants to see any kind of violent incident in the community such as this.
08:25But I do think the fact that this was a 15-year-old lab did have a particular impact.
08:30I was having cheesy chips and beans and then my eldest son called me
08:44and said,
08:46Oh, mum. Dad said, you should call him. Kyron's in trouble.
08:51My name is Rachel Webb and I'm the proud mother of Kyron Webb.
08:55I'm a mother of six.
08:57I have four boys and two girls.
08:59I was born and raised and we spent the majority of our life living in London.
09:05I met Kyron's dad when we were quite young.
09:09We got married in April 2020,
09:12but through the years we didn't seem to be going on the same pathway in the same way.
09:17So he moved to Manchester and we co-parented Kyron and his dad.
09:22They were really close.
09:23And he had asked if he could spend some time at his dad's in the holidays and things
09:28and then be with me as well.
09:30So we kind of split it like that.
09:31Kyron's parents, though they were separated,
09:33they seemed to have a good relationship.
09:36I called his dad and I just heard like they've stabbed him up.
09:42Kyron's dead.
09:42And I'm looking at the phone thinking,
09:44Is this real?
09:45Is this...
09:45Am I actually in a dream?
09:48Second pop came.
09:49I put the phone back to my ear
09:50and I said, where's my son?
09:52Put my son on the phone.
09:54And he said that Kyron was in hospital,
09:58Manchester Royal Infirmary.
10:00At that point, a private number call was now coming through to my phone.
10:04It was a male police officer
10:06and he said to me that there'd been an incident
10:08and that Kyron had been hurt
10:11and that he had sustained life-threatening injuries.
10:15And they said to me, we know I'm in London
10:17and if they are to arrange a police escort
10:21to blue light me to Manchester, could I come?
10:24And she said, yeah.
10:26And he asked me if a doctor or a nurse had spoken to me yet
10:30and I said no.
10:31And they put somebody on the phone
10:33and she reiterated that, you know,
10:36he had sustained life-threatening injuries,
10:39he was currently in theatre
10:40and they were working on him.
10:42Now, I probably was in shock.
10:44There was nothing connecting my emotions
10:47or my brain and my words together at the time.
10:50I called a friend.
10:52I said, Tyron, I need someone to come and get me now.
10:54I need to go to Manchester.
10:56I gave him my address and he said,
10:57I'm going to be there in 15 minutes.
10:59We met with the police
11:00and the police were blue lighting me.
11:02My friend, Tyron, continued to follow the police car
11:05and he was coming with me.
11:07When we got to the hospital,
11:08there was a plainclothes policeman and woman
11:12waiting for me.
11:14Now, I know something serious is happening
11:16and she said to me that Tyron had been stabbed
11:18and I remember asking her, where?
11:22And she said, he's hot.
11:24A siren noise came in my head.
11:26I felt someone touch my arm
11:28and it's like when it brought me back into the moment,
11:32there was a doctor standing by me.
11:33I don't know where he came from
11:35or how he even got there
11:36and he was talking
11:38and I heard him say that
11:41Kyron only had a 1% chance of surviving
11:46and I heard
11:50a scream.
11:55It was a noise
11:57of just gut-wrenching pain
12:01and sorrow
12:03and it was coming from me.
12:10But when I looked at the doctor's eyes,
12:12they were so sad
12:14and hairy.
12:17He said to me that
12:18he had did everything that he could
12:20but it was of his medical opinion
12:23that Kyron was brain dead.
12:28They were effectively keeping him alive
12:31so that allowed family time to be with him.
12:38Kyron's parents were in complete shock.
12:40It ranged from
12:42sort of complete disbelief
12:44to
12:45moments of almost despair.
12:49Collapsing corridors,
12:51lots of crying.
12:52The trauma was intense.
12:54The first time meeting Sarah,
12:56I just remember her
12:58offering
12:59that
12:59emotional support.
13:02My mental health nursing
13:03comes into play
13:05because people are going through
13:06the most traumatic experience
13:08they're going to ever experience
13:09in their lives.
13:10For me,
13:11it's just having an awareness
13:13of where they might be at.
13:14At that time,
13:15I didn't really know
13:16what a family liaison officer was
13:17or what they did
13:18but it was
13:19somebody there
13:21that I was told
13:21would be my
13:22point of call
13:23during the process
13:25of what was happening.
13:28There was a plan set
13:29by the doctors
13:29where they would have to do
13:30brain stem tests
13:31and they would be completed
13:32by two separate doctors.
13:34Once they were complete
13:35and they were quite certain
13:36that there was no brain activity,
13:38they would have that
13:39discussion with the family.
13:40Now,
13:41I know something serious
13:42is happening
13:43but I still am not able
13:45to retain it
13:46but I'm panicking
13:47because I'm scared.
13:48My nursing background
13:48helps me to be able
13:50to maybe put it
13:51into different words
13:52that they can understand
13:53to just repeat
13:55what's being said.
13:57Sarah
13:57would set that anchor cell
13:59just to help me
14:00to stay still
14:01to give me that grounding.
14:02I attended the meeting
14:04with the doctor
14:06when they were telling them
14:08that they were going to do
14:09the brain stem tests.
14:11Sarah supported me
14:12in all meetings
14:13and she would have the notes
14:14and then she would go
14:14over things with me
14:15and just to make sure
14:16that I fully understood
14:17what had been said.
14:19You know,
14:19they're numbed
14:20by the shock
14:21and they are trying
14:22to listen to the information
14:23that's been given to them
14:24because it's extremely
14:25important information
14:26but it's overwhelming
14:27and it's a matter
14:30of just going through
14:31the process really.
14:33They have to carry out
14:34some tests.
14:36They shine light
14:37in his eyes.
14:39They do things
14:40looking for responses
14:40and reflexes
14:41and there was no response.
14:44So they proclaim
14:45that he's brain dead.
14:47There was no chance
14:48of Chiron surviving
14:50his injuries.
14:51It was very sad.
14:53As family liaison officers
14:54we can't promise anything
14:55but what we can do
14:56is guide the family
14:57into saying
14:58we will do our absolute
14:59utmost to find
15:00who's responsible
15:01for this crime
15:02and we will hopefully
15:03do our utmost
15:04to bring them to justice.
15:05Also during that time
15:06is just get a small
15:07family tree going
15:08so that I understand
15:10who everybody is.
15:11Important information
15:12and contact numbers,
15:14addresses,
15:14things like that.
15:15Really just to gain
15:16information so that
15:17I've got that information
15:18to take back
15:19to the institute room.
15:20It's a really tough job
15:21on the first day
15:22for a family liaison officer
15:23because
15:23everybody reacts
15:25to these kind of things
15:26differently.
15:27You really do need
15:28to have resilience,
15:29flexibility
15:29and get trust
15:31within the family
15:32so they can start
15:33to work with us
15:34and help us
15:34with the investigation.
15:39The crime scene
15:40was in place
15:41for three days
15:42while we did
15:43the full examination
15:44and the searches.
15:45One common thing
15:47that happens
15:47at a crime scene
15:48is that the suspects
15:50often will attend
15:51and speak to police officers
15:52at the scene
15:53just to try
15:54and get some information
15:55of what's going on
15:56and see if the police
15:57officer will disclose
15:57anything just to get
15:59an idea of if there's
16:01any lines of inquiry.
16:03On this occasion,
16:04a male did approach
16:05a police officer,
16:06a detective,
16:07on one of my teams
16:07asking about details.
16:10Sarah informed me
16:12somebody had kept
16:13visiting the site
16:14and asking questions
16:16and so forth
16:16with different officers
16:17and so they looked
16:19into it.
16:20And it was established
16:21that that person
16:22had actually given
16:23false details
16:23to the detective.
16:25It became another line
16:26of inquiry.
16:27Day two,
16:28I met the family
16:29in the afternoon
16:29at Manchester Royal Infirmary.
16:31Sarah,
16:32the family liaison officer
16:34had arranged
16:34for the meeting
16:35and we went down together.
16:38Kyron was still
16:38on the life support machine
16:39at the time.
16:40Stuart was very,
16:41very informative
16:42and very open
16:43and transparent.
16:44I always felt
16:45I was part
16:46of that investigation
16:47and part of the process
16:49as opposed to
16:50being a spectator
16:51of the process
16:52that was going on
16:52around me.
16:56Stuart explained to me
16:58that when they had
16:59found Kyron
17:00that at the scene
17:01he had a bag
17:02and inside the bag
17:03was a knife.
17:04It was completely
17:05sealed in a wrapper.
17:06At that point
17:07I wasn't told
17:08much about it
17:09so I didn't know
17:10what sort of knife,
17:12was it Kyron's knife,
17:13was he going to use
17:14the knife,
17:14you know,
17:14there wasn't much
17:15that they could give me.
17:16Nobody seemed to understand
17:17or know why that was there.
17:19This is probably
17:19information they didn't
17:20want to hear
17:21but it's information
17:22I had to tell them
17:23because I don't want
17:24to have any surprises
17:25or hear of anybody else.
17:26To hear that
17:27that was
17:28absolutely devastating
17:29it brought to
17:31the focus
17:32how serious
17:34the situation was
17:37and how serious
17:37things were.
17:39What on earth
17:39was going on?
17:40What was happening
17:41for Kyron?
17:42Why was he so scared
17:43that he thought
17:43he needed to carry a knife?
17:45Like, who are these people?
17:46Who are these people
17:47to Kyron?
17:57Kyron lived with Rachel
18:02and his other siblings
18:03in London.
18:04For me,
18:07being a mum
18:08is probably one
18:08of the best jobs
18:09or the most important
18:11and meaningful role
18:12I've ever played
18:13in my whole entire life.
18:15Kyron was a very loving child
18:18and he was very attached
18:19to me.
18:20He would scream
18:21and always want to be
18:22with me and around me.
18:24He was very, very loyal
18:25and he loved hard.
18:28He liked to be involved,
18:29he liked to interact,
18:30but there was also
18:31a quiet part of Kyron
18:33as well.
18:34Sometimes he would
18:35take himself away
18:36from that really heightened
18:37environment and crowd
18:38and just sit in his room
18:39and maybe go on his console
18:40and that was his time
18:41to recharge his batteries.
18:43When Kyron was about 13,
18:47he had started
18:48to get into some trouble
18:49at school for,
18:51like, it was minor behaviours,
18:52like, you know,
18:52just not concentrating
18:53in the class.
18:54That's when the school
18:55started to do, like,
18:56referrals to speech
18:58and language
18:58and things like that
18:59to have assessments
19:01carried out.
19:03Kyron is the only child
19:04that I had
19:05that had struggles
19:07self-regulating emotions
19:09and, you know,
19:10that got quite
19:12overwhelmed
19:13in heightened environments
19:15and would sometimes
19:16need intervention
19:17to help him
19:18to co-regulate
19:19and to calm down.
19:21Kyron was easily influenced
19:22in the sense
19:23that he didn't really
19:24perceive,
19:25he couldn't really see
19:26the risk or understand.
19:28Kyron was getting himself
19:29in a little bit of trouble
19:30at London.
19:31The suggestion was put forward
19:32that he goes to live
19:33with his dad
19:33in the Manchester area.
19:35His dad didn't have
19:36any other children
19:36at the home
19:38living with him
19:38so it was more of a
19:39calmer, quiet environment.
19:41Kyron was quite
19:42looking forward to it
19:43and initially embraced it
19:45and got on very well,
19:46started school,
19:47was progressing
19:48extremely well
19:49and enjoying living with that.
19:51Came home to visit
19:51mum and his siblings
19:52when he could.
19:53He had an aim in life
19:56to become an architect.
19:58He had vision
19:59of where he wanted
19:59to go in life.
20:01He was able to re-engage
20:02back into school.
20:04He made a small group
20:05of friends down there
20:06and he was doing really well.
20:08I felt it was
20:09a better environment
20:10for Kyron to be able
20:12to develop
20:12and reach that full potential.
20:16So at Greater Manchester
20:17we have a dedicated
20:19specialist CCTV team.
20:21I sat down with them
20:22and we worked out parameters
20:23around the housing estate
20:25of where they should
20:26actually concentrate
20:26their efforts
20:27to try and locate
20:28more CCTV
20:28to help us understand
20:30what had happened
20:31at the scene.
20:32That was a major
20:33line of inquiry for us.
20:35There was a CCTV camera
20:36that actually captured it
20:38right over the top
20:39of the actual attack.
20:40That gave us
20:41a very good understanding
20:43of the kind of attack
20:44that had taken place.
20:45That was shown
20:45from a CCTV footage
20:47that they'd managed
20:48to retrieve
20:48from a local house.
20:50It appears that Kyron,
20:51he'd been with two boys.
20:53You can tell from the CCTV
20:54the way they're interacting.
20:56It looks like he knows them.
20:58It looks like a pre-arranged meet.
20:59They'd been seen talking
21:01for some time.
21:02The way the demeanour is
21:03between the two lads
21:04and Kyron
21:04does tend to suggest
21:06that there is some sort
21:07of disagreement going on.
21:08That conversation went on
21:10for probably about 20 minutes
21:12and then it's only
21:13they started walking up the road
21:15and then for some reason,
21:17for reasons I don't know,
21:18all of a sudden
21:19that escalated
21:20that conversation
21:21where one of the boys
21:22pulled an eye,
21:24stabbed Kyron in the chest
21:25and then the two males
21:26ran away.
21:31And then 30 seconds later,
21:33one of them returned
21:34and delivered another
21:35stab wound to the back of Kyron.
21:43The main things
21:44that a family liaison officer
21:45has got to have
21:46is really good people skills.
21:49Luckily for me,
21:50he got a very experienced
21:51police officer
21:51to support me
21:52in dealing with the family.
21:55The role of a family liaison officer
21:58I think sometimes
21:59can be underestimated
22:00and it's absolutely crucial
22:01to the SIO.
22:03They're the eyes and ears
22:03for the SIO to start with.
22:05I would be distracted
22:06on the first day
22:07with numerous other inquiries.
22:09I've got to be really resilient
22:10and be prepared to
22:12not only give
22:14tough messages
22:15but obviously soak up
22:17a lot of emotion.
22:19We get called into
22:26a meeting with the doctor
22:27and
22:28I saw a tear
22:32hit the desk
22:33and the doctor is sad
22:35and his head is down.
22:38The doctor's asking us
22:40about turning off
22:41the life support machine.
22:43And I'm looking around the room
22:45and everybody's looking at me
22:46because I think
22:47how can you ask me
22:49to kill my son?
22:51I came alive
22:52when I became a mum.
22:53How can you ask me
22:54to kill him?
22:56This is a decision
22:56I do not want to make.
22:58And the doctor had said
22:59that if we didn't turn off
23:01the life support machine
23:02that Kyron would remain
23:03in a vegetative state
23:05until his body
23:06then passes away.
23:08It was an impossible situation.
23:10She didn't want to part
23:12from her beloved son
23:14but she also had to make
23:15the decision
23:16that she didn't want him
23:17to live a life
23:18where he was
23:19not going to
23:20come back to being
23:21the son that she remembered.
23:22And I thought
23:23Rachel it would be
23:24so selfish of you
23:26to keep him here
23:28for your own gain
23:29and benefit
23:30because this would not be
23:31what Kyron would want.
23:33I stood up
23:34and I said
23:35turn it off.
23:40I was present
23:41at that time
23:42yes
23:42when the machines
23:42were switched off.
23:43It was very quiet
23:44and very somber.
23:45I held his hand
23:46and I closed my eyes
23:48and I put my head
23:49on his chest.
23:51And you know
23:52when people say that
23:53when you die
23:55or when you're going to die
23:56in that situation
23:57like your life
23:58kind of plays out
23:59in front of you.
24:00That's what it was like.
24:01It was like a showreel.
24:02I saw myself pregnant.
24:04I saw myself giving birth.
24:06I saw his little gummy grins
24:08and his dribbles
24:09as he's drooling
24:10as a baby.
24:11I saw him dancing.
24:12I saw him laughing.
24:13I saw his smile.
24:14I could hear him saying
24:15mum.
24:16I felt his hugs.
24:17I could just see it
24:18and it was just there
24:19and I could hear him
24:20singing in my head.
24:22And then I just felt
24:23boom boom
24:23on my face.
24:25And I remember
24:26just being so still.
24:28And I felt it
24:30three times
24:30and then I heard
24:32the doctor say
24:33he's gone.
24:34Normally the identification
24:40will need to be done
24:41so I'll escort them
24:42to the hospital
24:43usually the Royal Oldham Hospital
24:45where the postmortems
24:46take place.
24:48I would take
24:48a very brief statement
24:49from them
24:50to say who that person was
24:52so that that information
24:53can then be continuity
24:55for the coroner.
24:56The process with Chiron
24:58was slightly different.
24:59I got Rachel to do that
25:00at the bedside
25:01so she was able to inform me
25:03that it was Chiron
25:04his full name
25:05and his date of birth
25:06and the statement
25:07was taken
25:08she signed it.
25:14The whole process
25:15within itself
25:16is so traumatic
25:18it's really difficult
25:19it's hard to understand
25:21you know
25:21you want to just
25:23lay in bed
25:24and cry
25:25and shut yourself
25:25from the world
25:26and just give up.
25:27The role of Sarah
25:31was what helped me
25:33to stay afloat.
25:35I was made aware
25:36that other family members
25:37had turned up
25:38and wanted to see him
25:39so I was able to
25:40enable that process
25:41to take place
25:42support them
25:42through their
25:43their obvious grief.
25:45Sarah helped
25:47and prepared me
25:48for having to do
25:49the tribute
25:49the following day
25:50after Chiron's passing
25:51and she explained
25:53that you know
25:53the tribute
25:54would go out
25:55in the Manchester
25:56Even news.
25:57She talked to me
25:58explained to me
25:59what it was
25:59what the expectation
26:00was and what would
26:01happen
26:01and supported me
26:03through the writing
26:04of it.
26:04One of the main
26:08lines of inquiry
26:09we wanted to develop
26:09was an intelligence
26:11picture around Chiron.
26:12Chiron had a knife
26:13on him.
26:14It might actually
26:15give me some
26:16understanding and mindset
26:17of Chiron at the time
26:18whether he's going
26:19through some bullying
26:20or he's had an
26:21altercation with anybody
26:22with the kind of people
26:23he was dealing with.
26:25It gives us another line
26:25of inquiry
26:26for the investigation.
26:27They went to
26:28Manchester Academy
26:28so that was an obvious
26:29place for us to visit
26:31to see if we could locate
26:32any friends
26:33or associates
26:34that his family
26:35were unaware of.
26:36We spoke to various
26:37people and some
26:39of the information
26:39we got back
26:40was that Chiron
26:41was involved
26:41in some sort
26:42of drug debt.
26:43It did sort of
26:44give us a little bit
26:45of a picture
26:46that this could
26:48be a reason
26:48why Chiron
26:50had met up
26:50with these two lads
26:51and it could
26:53be a motive
26:54for why he'd
26:56been attacked
26:56and why he'd
26:58been murdered
26:58on that night.
26:59I was going
27:00to an event
27:01at work
27:02and Chiron
27:03called me
27:04and asked me
27:05if I could
27:06give him
27:07a sum of money
27:09around £90.
27:10I didn't have it
27:11at the time
27:12and said that
27:12I would send it
27:14to him
27:14at the end
27:15of the week
27:15like never
27:16towards my payday
27:17and he said
27:17he wanted to get
27:19a PlayStation 3
27:20and it was a bit
27:21mind-boggling to me
27:23because I'd just
27:23purchased him
27:24the PlayStation 4
27:26for Christmas
27:27so I didn't
27:27understand why
27:28he wanted
27:28to buy
27:29a different model.
27:32A few weeks
27:34after when I
27:35was speaking
27:35to his dad
27:36his dad
27:37had given
27:39kind of enough
27:39resources
27:40to buy it.
27:43The CCTV
27:44was the most
27:45key evidence
27:46that we'd
27:46managed to obtain.
27:48We did get
27:48a breakthrough
27:49where a CCTV
27:50specialist
27:51that we'd used
27:52on the investigation
27:53found some footage
27:54which fit the time
27:56of the murder
27:56of two people
27:58running across
27:58a main road
28:00in the distance
28:01on the CCTV
28:01into Scarborough Street.
28:03That was significant
28:04for us
28:05because Scarborough Street
28:06was a cul-de-sac
28:08with no way
28:09of getting out
28:09at the bottom.
28:10My thoughts were
28:11if they were
28:13the suspects
28:14that they either
28:15lived in Scarborough Street
28:16or had associates
28:17in Scarborough Street
28:18so that was something
28:20that we dealt with
28:20as a positive line
28:21of inquiry.
28:25On the assumption
28:26that the two people
28:28running across the street
28:29could be our attackers
28:30what we did
28:32with that
28:32was to research
28:33all 34 houses
28:34on Scarborough Street.
28:36It was established
28:37that a lad called
28:38Michael Iderhan
28:39lived in one
28:40of the houses.
28:41So Michael Iderhan
28:42was a 17-year-old man
28:43who was known
28:44to the police
28:44for knife crime.
28:47He had been convicted
28:47for some knife crime
28:49offences in the past.
28:50That was of interest
28:51to me.
28:52In the office
28:53we were doing
28:53some background searches
28:55it was on our
28:56police systems
28:57and another detective
28:58on my team
28:59saw Michael's picture
29:01and recognised him
29:02to be someone
29:03who had approached
29:03the crime scene
29:04the day before
29:05asking for information
29:07of what had happened.
29:09There was a picture
29:10building around
29:10Michael Iderhan
29:11that definitely
29:12became of interest
29:13to us.
29:15Whilst we were doing
29:16background searches
29:17on Iderhan
29:17we also started
29:19to look at
29:20Kyren's phone data
29:21and we found
29:22it was linked
29:22to Michael Iderhan's
29:23brother
29:24so there was
29:25a direct link there
29:26between Kyren
29:27and Iderhan's
29:27the CCTV footage
29:29was quite grainy
29:30and didn't give
29:30a definitive
29:31identification of Michael
29:33it is someone
29:34that clearly
29:35could have fitted
29:35the description
29:36same build
29:37similar features
29:39that was enough
29:40then for me
29:41to arrest Michael
29:42for the murder
29:43of Kyren Webb.
29:43We executed
29:53I think it was
29:54three warrants
29:54on the morning
29:55of the 20th
29:56we arrested Michael
29:57at his home address
29:58at Scarborough Street
29:59locked his house down
30:01as a crime scene
30:02at the arrest
30:03his mum was present
30:04and she was asked
30:07questions about
30:08Michael's whereabouts
30:09on the night
30:09of the murder
30:10she confirmed
30:11that Michael
30:13had got home
30:13just after 7
30:14which again
30:15fitted in
30:16with the CCTV
30:17of two males
30:18running down
30:19Scarborough Street
30:19she provided a statement
30:21for the investigation
30:23to that effect
30:24probably at the time
30:25not understanding
30:25its relevance
30:26that was key evidence
30:27for us
30:28we did other arrests
30:29as well
30:29because we knew
30:31Michael had a number
30:32of associates
30:33the second male
30:34who was with him
30:34at the time
30:35we still didn't know
30:35their identity
30:36we thought that
30:37potentially
30:38one of the associates
30:39we arrested
30:40at the same time
30:40as Michael
30:41could have been
30:41the second man
30:42on the day
30:46of the arrest
30:46we interviewed
30:47Michael and his associates
30:49and we managed
30:50to eliminate
30:51the other two people
30:52who were arrested
30:52during the day
30:53another name
30:54came into
30:55the inquiry
30:56and he was
30:56on our system
30:57but we didn't have
30:59actual picture of him
31:00the CCTV
31:01officers
31:03they had expended
31:04CCTV search
31:06to before the murder
31:07and located
31:08Michael and some friends
31:09on a bus
31:10who had just arrived
31:11in Mostyn
31:11on the bus
31:12was a young lad
31:14who was wearing
31:15a jacket
31:16that looked
31:17very similar
31:17to the jacket
31:18that was worn
31:19by the second male
31:20in the CCTV
31:20at the scene
31:22of the attack
31:22I tasked out
31:23two detectives
31:24to go to
31:25this male's house
31:27the 16 year old lad
31:30was located there
31:31he looked like
31:32the man on the bus
31:33who was with Michael
31:34at the time
31:34and he was arrested
31:35the fact that
31:36they were so young
31:37does make you
31:38bring home to you
31:40this really is
31:41the consequences
31:42of young people
31:43carrying knives
31:44and I don't think
31:45people realise
31:48at that age
31:48what heartache
31:50it can bring
31:51one of the key things
31:52for the family
31:52as an officer
31:53is to make contact
31:55with the family
31:57as soon as possible
31:58after the arrest
31:58to confirm
31:59that there is
32:00some positive news
32:01progress has been made
32:02and I was able
32:03to give that
32:04information to Rachel
32:05she'd shared with me
32:06the news
32:07that the two young men
32:10had been arrested
32:11and said that
32:13because we were so upset
32:15the day before
32:15they'd actually been
32:16arrested the day before
32:17but she just wanted
32:18to give me a time
32:19to come to terms
32:20with everything
32:21what had gone on
32:22that's probably hard
32:23to hear
32:23after you've just
32:24you know
32:25switched off
32:26the life support
32:27for your son
32:27difficult
32:28because obviously
32:29she's still grieving
32:30and will be grieving
32:31for a long time
32:32but it's some relief
32:34we have to do something
32:36for Chiron now
32:36for his memory
32:37and we have to get
32:39justice for him
32:39so it is nice
32:40to be able to say
32:41that we've actually
32:42secured an arrest
32:43Rachel had no knowledge
32:46of who these
32:48two boys were
32:49there's always
32:56an autopsy
32:57when there's
32:58a sudden death
32:59of any description
33:00but when it's a murder
33:01there is a
33:03home office pathologist
33:04will be
33:05action to come
33:07and do
33:07the autopsy
33:09the autopsy
33:11is
33:11part of the case
33:13you wouldn't be able
33:14to proceed at trial
33:15if you didn't have
33:16the full
33:16cause of death
33:17Chiron had the
33:19stab wound
33:20to his chest
33:22which had
33:22entered his heart
33:23he also had
33:24a stab wound
33:25to his back
33:26and he also had
33:28a head injury
33:29which was determined
33:31by a fall
33:31after the autopsy
33:35takes place
33:35I am given
33:37the information
33:37by the SAO
33:38what information
33:39I can give
33:40to the family
33:40I will be that person
33:42that gives them
33:42the information
33:43to try and explain
33:45to the family
33:46what the whole
33:48home office post-mortem
33:49is all about
33:49it is a really
33:50difficult conversation
33:51to have
33:52at a time when
33:53there are so many
33:54different emotions
33:55going on
33:55the cause of death
33:57was the
33:58the knife
34:00used went
34:01seven centimetres
34:02into Chiron's heart
34:03and
34:04seven centimetres
34:06the knife wound
34:07to his back
34:08punctured the lung
34:09Chiron
34:10he had
34:11significant
34:12internal bleeding
34:12he suffocated
34:14in his own blood
34:14his brain
34:15had been stabbed
34:16for 60 minutes
34:17at the scene
34:18when interviewing
34:24suspects for murders
34:25I usually have
34:26an interview advisor
34:27to monitor the interview
34:29so they can actually
34:29see what each
34:30suspect's saying
34:31in case one starts
34:32playing the other
34:33one off
34:33on this occasion
34:35we use what we call
34:37stage disclosure
34:38where we don't tell
34:39the suspects everything
34:40because we want
34:41to get an unbiased
34:42and open account
34:44from them
34:44eventually
34:45Michael admitted
34:46that he was
34:47the man in the CCTV
34:48he admitted
34:49being the person
34:50who stabbed Chiron
34:51there was a number
34:53of different reasons
34:54why Michael
34:56said he stabbed
34:57Chiron
34:58which gave
34:59some unreliability
35:00to his account
35:01the first one
35:02was that he said
35:02he was in self-defense
35:04we really need
35:05to scrutinize
35:06the CCTV
35:07to negate that
35:09we're obviously aware
35:10that Chiron's got
35:11a knife in his bag
35:12so we had to go back
35:14all the way
35:15through the footage
35:16from the minute
35:17they met
35:17all the way up
35:18to the actual
35:18stabbing
35:19just to make sure
35:20that Chiron
35:21didn't draw the knife
35:22or there was any threats
35:23we painstakingly
35:25went through it
35:26with a fine-tooth comb
35:27we were more than
35:28satisfied
35:29that at no time
35:30did Chiron
35:30threaten Michael
35:32with a knife
35:32or certainly
35:34didn't do anything
35:34that caused
35:35a good self-defense
35:38for Michael
35:38to rely on
35:39there was another
35:46account to say
35:47that Chiron
35:48had been disrespectful
35:48to a rap video
35:49he said
35:50there was a
35:51disagreement
35:51over a song
35:52that Michael
35:54had performed
35:56and uploaded
35:57to YouTube
35:58we've never
35:59ever been able
36:00to obtain
36:01details of the
36:03interaction
36:03so it's never
36:05been proven
36:06indefinitely
36:08without doubt
36:09that that was
36:10the reason
36:10both Michael
36:15and the other
36:16male involved
36:17they both accepted
36:18that they were
36:19the people on
36:19CCTV
36:20at the altercation
36:21I would suggest
36:22that Michael
36:23was quite naive
36:24in some of his
36:25responses
36:26the fact
36:27that he's admitted
36:28that he was
36:28the man
36:29on the CCTV
36:29was a massive
36:30help to the
36:31investigation
36:31and on the
36:3321st of October
36:342017
36:35Michael Iden
36:36and another male
36:37were both charged
36:38with murder
36:38I made the
36:39family aware
36:40that two suspects
36:43had been charged
36:44with the murder
36:46of Chiron
36:46and that was
36:48greeted with
36:49some relief
36:49and positive news
36:51as well for them
36:51that we've got
36:52the killers
36:53in custody
36:54most trials
36:58are usually
36:59between one
37:00and two weeks
37:01you prepare
37:01yourself for
37:02being present
37:04and just being
37:05there for them
37:06each day
37:06it's unknown
37:07territory for
37:08families
37:08they don't know
37:09they've never
37:09been through
37:10the justice
37:10system
37:11leading up to
37:12the trial
37:12I had not
37:14got a scooby
37:15on what I was
37:16going to experience
37:17Sarah was that
37:18navigator
37:20through the whole
37:21criminal proceedings
37:22around the murder
37:23trial
37:24I always
37:28explain to
37:28families
37:29before trial
37:30a little bit
37:31about courtrooms
37:32and also
37:33if something
37:33be said
37:34about Chiron
37:35or something
37:36about the way
37:37they perceived
37:38he lived his life
37:38you cannot comment
37:40at the time
37:40you have to
37:41remain silent
37:42you have to
37:42sort of
37:43listen to the
37:44information
37:44and just be
37:45respectful in
37:45the courtroom
37:46I was really
37:48nervous
37:49really really
37:50nervous
37:50and I was
37:51so scared
37:52that the
37:53part-time
37:53paid was
37:54going to be
37:54something
37:54really sinister
37:56and bad
37:56and I didn't
37:58really want
37:58to hear it
37:59a lot of
38:00that information
38:00is quite
38:01hard to hear
38:02but it's good
38:03to know
38:04before their
38:04families get
38:05into the
38:05courtroom
38:06and allowing
38:07them to vent
38:07any concerns
38:08that they have
38:09prior to
38:09reaching that
38:10point
38:10we went
38:20up to
38:20Manchester
38:21for the
38:22trial in
38:22April
38:23and Sarah
38:24was with us
38:25every day
38:25Crown Court
38:26is a big
38:27building in
38:28Manchester
38:28it's quite
38:29overwhelming
38:30you get
38:30security checks
38:32as you enter
38:32the building
38:33you then
38:34escorted to
38:35courtroom
38:35which may
38:36at short
38:36notice
38:37change
38:37when we
38:39got to
38:39the courts
38:40we were
38:40taken into
38:41a room
38:42with Stephen
38:43and Sarah
38:45and they
38:47showed us
38:48the CCTV
38:49footage
38:50before it
38:52was played
38:52in court
38:53just to
38:54prepare me
38:55for what
38:55was going
38:55to be seen
38:56I hadn't
39:00seen
39:01Kyron
39:02alive
39:03for
39:04five and a
39:05bit months
39:06so it
39:07was lovely
39:08seeing him
39:09alive
39:09it was lovely
39:10seeing him
39:11walk
39:11it was lovely
39:12seeing his
39:13clothes
39:13filled with
39:14a person
39:15inside them
39:16it was lovely
39:17seeing the bag
39:18on him
39:19whole
39:20it was lovely
39:21seeing the
39:22bandana
39:22with no
39:23stains
39:23it was just
39:24nice
39:25I wanted to
39:29just lean
39:29into the screen
39:30and pull him
39:31out
39:32I wanted to
39:33kiss the lips
39:34that were smiling
39:35I wanted to
39:35hold his hands
39:36that was in
39:37his pocket
39:37I just wanted
39:38to hug him
39:38there was no
39:39sound on the
39:40CCTV and I
39:41was just dying
39:42to hear his
39:43voice
39:43and then as
39:44he gets up
39:45to the
39:45Barclays Bank
39:46where Michael
39:47and the
39:47accomplice
39:48are seated
39:48and seeing
39:50that interaction
39:51it was hard
39:54because
39:55there weren't
39:56any visual
39:58anger
39:59that I could
40:00see
40:00I don't think
40:01Kyron
40:01and one
40:02he didn't
40:02know he
40:03was in
40:03danger
40:03two
40:04he didn't
40:05understand
40:05the severity
40:05of what
40:06was going
40:06on
40:06he would
40:07have seen
40:07the knife
40:08before the
40:08knife came
40:09down on him
40:09Michael
40:10must have
40:10said something
40:11there must
40:11have been
40:11some menace
40:12or anger
40:13in his
40:13words
40:14but in
40:16the silence
40:17of this
40:17vision
40:17he just
40:20just wasn't
40:22there
40:23when they
40:24stabbed him
40:25because he
40:26probably was
40:26absolutely
40:27petrified
40:28when I saw
40:29him stagger
40:30I struggled
40:31because then
40:33I thought
40:33my baby boy
40:34is hurt
40:35when I saw
40:36him lean on
40:37the wall
40:37and he was
40:37pulling at
40:38his coat
40:38I thought
40:38he's having
40:39an asthma attack
40:40he can't
40:40breathe
40:40I need to
40:40get him
40:41in his
40:41inhalers
40:41then when
40:42he leant
40:43back
40:43and pulled
40:43up his
40:44chads
40:44I thought
40:44I keep
40:45telling
40:45this boy
40:45to put
40:46on a
40:46belt
40:46and then
40:47when they
40:47stabbed him
40:48again
40:48he dropped
40:49down
40:49he jumped
40:49back up
40:50and said
40:50there's
40:50my boy
40:50there's
40:51his
40:51fighter
40:51he's a
40:52roaring
40:53lion
40:53there's
40:53his
40:53fighter
40:54and
40:54I see
40:55him walk
40:55around
40:55the
40:56corner
40:56and then
40:57I knew
40:58that
40:59he took
41:00that final
41:01fall
41:01and he
41:02was never
41:02going to
41:02get up
41:03when they
41:04were playing
41:04the CCTV
41:05footage
41:05in the
41:06court
41:07his dad
41:07was unable
41:08to
41:08sit in
41:10the courtroom
41:10he found
41:11it too
41:12difficult
41:12the
41:16family
41:16area
41:17Manchester
41:18Crown
41:18Court
41:18is
41:19sort of
41:20a
41:20side-on
41:20situation
41:22with the
41:22defendants
41:23being in
41:23the middle
41:23we were all
41:24sat down
41:25in the
41:25pew
41:25I remember
41:26hearing chains
41:27then when we
41:28sat down
41:29to the right
41:30of me
41:30Michael was
41:32just standing
41:32there
41:33I
41:34think I was
41:38stunned
41:38and I
41:43remember
41:43looking at
41:43him thinking
41:44you look
41:45like a
41:45child
41:45but because
41:46they pled
41:47guilty
41:47it meant
41:48that they
41:49didn't need
41:50to give
41:50any further
41:51explanation
41:51to what
41:52had happened
41:53and why
41:53it really
41:55annoyed me
41:56because I
41:57wanted to
41:58know what
41:58happened
41:59and why
42:00it happened
42:00and I
42:01wanted them
42:01to explain
42:02to me
42:02what on
42:02earth
42:03Kyron
42:03did to
42:04them
42:04that they
42:04felt
42:05warranted
42:06his life
42:07being
42:07taken
42:08the knife
42:12that killed
42:13Kyron
42:14was not
42:14found
42:15the sentence
42:16was for
42:17Michael
42:17Idahern
42:18was 15
42:19years
42:19not having
42:20the murder
42:21weapon would
42:21have been
42:22a serious
42:22challenge
42:23if we
42:24hadn't
42:24got the
42:25clear CCTV
42:26footage that
42:27we had
42:27due to the
42:29strength
42:29of the CCTV
42:30the evidence
42:31in this
42:31case
42:31both males
42:32pleaded
42:33guilty
42:33Michael
42:34pleaded
42:34guilty
42:35to the
42:35murder
42:36of
42:36Kyron
42:37where
42:37the other
42:37male
42:38pleaded
42:38guilty
42:38to a
42:38manslaughter
42:39he ended
42:40up with
42:41two years
42:42I felt
42:42when we
42:43got a
42:43result
42:44and someone
42:44convicted
42:45at court
42:45I felt
42:46it was
42:46a very
42:46rewarding
42:47role
42:47that
42:48fulfilled
42:49me
42:49the fact
42:49that we
42:49made a
42:50difference
42:50to the
42:50families
42:51who had
42:51gone
42:51through
42:51such
42:51trauma
42:52to time
42:52that
42:53time
42:53wasn't
42:54significant
42:55really
42:55and quite
42:56probably
42:56difficult
42:57to deal
42:57with
42:57for the
42:58family
42:58I still
42:59feel
42:59disappointed
43:00there are
43:01times
43:01when I
43:02get
43:02really
43:03angry
43:03our
43:04past
43:04catches
43:05up
43:05with
43:05us
43:05all
43:06of
43:06the
43:06time
43:07and
43:07I
43:08think
43:08he
43:10has
43:10a
43:1115
43:11year
43:12sentence
43:12in
43:13prison
43:13but
43:14he
43:14also
43:15has
43:15as
43:16I
43:16do
43:16a
43:17lifetime
43:18sentence
43:18of
43:19murder
43:20how are
43:26you
43:26I
43:27remember
43:36you
43:36as
43:37being
43:38just a
43:39lovely
43:39person
43:40just
43:41somebody
43:41that
43:41was
43:41approachable
43:42even in
43:43all this
43:43trauma
43:44and this
43:44turmoil
43:45even
43:45though
43:46you
43:47didn't
43:47know
43:47me
43:48you
43:48had
43:48a
43:48smile
43:48on
43:49your
43:49face
43:49and
43:49you
43:49put
43:50me
43:50at
43:50ease
43:51from
43:52that
43:52moment
43:52I
43:53met
43:53you
43:53I
43:54just
43:54remember
43:54you
43:54just
43:55being
43:55there
43:56all
43:56the
43:57time
43:57so
43:57whenever
43:58I
43:58felt
43:59completely
44:00overwhelmed
44:01and
44:01completely
44:01choked up
44:02and you
44:02could
44:02see
44:02she's
44:03going
44:03to have
44:03a
44:03breakdown
44:03she
44:04needs
44:04me
44:04and
44:04you
44:04were
44:04just
44:05there
44:05then
44:05you
44:06always
44:06had
44:06a
44:06hug
44:06waiting
44:07I
44:07was
44:07this
44:08smashed
44:09up
44:15was
44:15like
44:15cement
44:16you
44:16made
44:17me
44:17and
44:17all
44:17my
44:17family
44:18feel
44:18that
44:19we
44:19belonged
44:19and
44:21you
44:21went
44:21above
44:22and
44:22beyond
44:22the
44:23call
44:23of
44:23duty
44:24I
44:24absolutely
44:24adore
44:25you
44:25and so
44:25do
44:25the
44:26kids
44:26we
44:26adore
44:26you
44:27we
44:27talk
44:27about
44:27you
44:27at
44:28home
44:28like
44:28you're
44:28my
44:28mum
44:28honestly
44:30but
44:32no
44:32it
44:32is
44:33amazing
44:34you
44:34are
44:35absolutely
44:35amazing
44:36thank
44:36you
44:37for
44:37all
44:37those
44:37words
44:38I
44:38mean
44:38well
44:39I
44:40feel
44:40honored
44:40to have
44:41met
44:41you
44:41and
44:42I'm
44:42sorry
44:42it's
44:42under
44:42those
44:43circumstances
44:43because
44:44you
44:44are
44:45truly
44:45a
44:45lovely
44:45lady
44:46who
44:46you
44:47know
44:47has
44:47put
44:48a lot
44:48into
44:48her
44:48family
44:49and
44:50the
44:51loss
44:51of
44:51Chiron
44:51is
44:52huge
44:52but
44:54I
44:54think
44:54the
44:54way
44:54you
44:55have
44:55handled
44:57everything
44:58and
44:58taken
44:58everything
44:59on
44:59board
44:59you've
44:59had
45:00to
45:00step
45:01up
45:01and
45:02do
45:02you've
45:03done
45:03it
45:04so
45:05well
45:05you
45:05know
45:06you'll
45:06never
45:06get
45:08over
45:08the
45:08loss
45:08of
45:08Chiron
45:09but
45:10how
45:10you
45:10manage
45:11it
45:11and how
45:11you deal
45:12and how
45:12you
45:12move
45:12on
45:13your
45:13life
45:13will
45:13be
45:13so
45:13different
45:14by
45:14how
45:15you'll
45:15dealt
45:15with
45:15on
45:15that
45:16first
45:16day
45:16and
45:17for
45:17me
45:17that's
45:18what
45:18it's
45:18about
45:18and
45:18that's
45:18why
45:19I
45:19do
45:19this
45:19job
45:19just
45:20knowing
45:21that
45:22I had
45:22somebody
45:23there
45:23who
45:24understood
45:24the
45:25experience
45:25and
45:26was
45:26able
45:26to
45:26prepare
45:27me
45:27for
45:27it
45:28and
45:28then
45:28offer
45:28the
45:29aftercare
45:29support
45:30and
45:30you
45:30know
45:30just
45:31that
45:31more
45:33greater
45:33understanding
45:34I think
45:35that
45:35helped
45:35me get
45:36through
45:36that
45:42going off
45:42to
45:42new
45:43adventures
45:43in their
45:44lives
45:44aren't
45:44they
45:45and
45:46Kyron
45:46will
45:46always
45:46be
45:47there
45:47he's
45:48always
45:48there
45:49in the
45:49background
45:49he's
45:50never
45:50gone
46:12he's
46:29he's
46:32he
46:33what
46:33he
46:34goes
46:34he
46:36he
46:39maybe
46:39how
46:40he
46:40ポ
46:40his
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