- 2 months ago
In this episode of India First, the main focus is on Congress leader Rahul Gandhi's controversial remarks in Bihar and the fierce political battle over the Special Intensive Revision (SIR) of electoral rolls.
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00:00Welcome back, you're watching India First, I'm Gaurav Samant.
00:04We will talk about phase two of the special intensive revision of the electoral rolls
00:10and the opposition is up in arms.
00:12So whether it's the TMC in Bengal or the DMK in Tamil Nadu, protests have started.
00:18We'll get to the latest on those protests.
00:20But there's a big story.
00:23Rahul Gandhi, leader of opposition in Lok Sabha's shocking remark
00:28from Kutumbh in Bihar, Rahul Gandhi, the Congress party, member of parliament
00:34and leader of opposition in Lok Sabha, he stirred up on its nest
00:38during a political rally just ahead of the first phase of elections.
00:43He said that the Indian army, like the judiciary, like the corporate sector,
00:49is under the control just of 10% of the country's population.
00:55And this is in reference to Rahul Gandhi raising the issue of caste.
01:02But he's roped in both the armed forces and the judiciary along with the corporate sector.
01:09So Rahul Gandhi was addressing a public gathering.
01:12He said if you look closely, words to the effect,
01:14If you look closely, 90% of the country's population,
01:19they are Dalits, Mahadalits, backward, extremely backward,
01:23all from the minority community.
01:25He says that's 90% of the country.
01:27But these 90% are being controlled,
01:32according to Rahul Gandhi,
01:33by the top 10% in jobs,
01:37in everything,
01:39from the judiciary
01:40to the army.
01:42The army, of course,
01:44has only one caste,
01:46one creed,
01:47one religion,
01:49which is India,
01:51which is Bharat,
01:53which is India first.
01:55But listening to Rahul Gandhi,
01:57I'll get you more on the story.
01:58I'll get you more on the story.
02:28There are also people who have all of them.
02:31In Sena,
02:32there are people who have control.
02:37And the 90% of the population of you who have been able to do it.
02:43Where are you not going to be able to do it.
02:46Now my advice is,
02:49that if we don't have 90% of the people of Hindustan,
02:52we will not be able to do it.
02:56whether it is corporate India
02:59whether it is judiciary
03:03whether it is bureaucracy
03:04if we don't
03:08do it, how will it become Hindustan?
03:13Now, why would he think
03:15that the armed forces
03:17do not have representation
03:18of the entire country?
03:21And that's so not true.
03:23The armed forces
03:24are represented by everyone
03:27without any distinction
03:29of caste, creed, sect, sex
03:32or religion
03:33purely on merit.
03:36And these are people
03:38who you need to ensure
03:39that they are purely the best
03:42because they are your last bastion
03:45they are your defenders
03:46they defend your country
03:48at the borders
03:49and everyone does that
03:51irrespective of whatever
03:53their caste, creed
03:54or sect or religion
03:56or sex may be
03:57every day just work
03:58as India first.
04:00Let me bring in
04:01my colleague Moshmi Singh
04:02who joins us
04:03for more on this
04:04and Moshmi has been reporting
04:05from Ground Zero in Bihar.
04:07Moshmi, yes
04:09caste is a major factor
04:12in elections.
04:13Almost across the country
04:15in Bihar
04:15it's being talked about
04:16very extensively
04:17but to bring in
04:19conversation of 90%
04:22and 10%
04:23and roping in
04:24the armed forces
04:26is this
04:27going down a very dangerous
04:29and a very slippery slope
04:31Moshmi?
04:32Clearly
04:34LOP Rahul Gandhi
04:36has launched
04:36a very targeted attack
04:38here
04:38addressing a rally
04:40in Kutumba
04:40where he said
04:41that 90%
04:43are Dalits
04:44are divasis
04:45and the backward caste
04:47but they are not
04:48represented anywhere
04:50the marginalised
04:51are left
04:52on the brink
04:53while
04:54the other 10%
04:55have control
04:56over
04:57the judiciary
04:58and now
04:58he extended
04:59that attack
05:00to even
05:01the armed forces
05:02he said
05:03that
05:04the privileges
05:05and all
05:06the luxuries
05:07are taken away
05:08by the 10%
05:09who govern
05:10the country
05:11and thereby
05:12in Bihar
05:12where caste politics
05:14is the mainstay
05:16takes the centre stage
05:18as far as
05:18poll issues
05:19are concerned
05:19Rahul Gandhi
05:21they are trying
05:21to draw a wedge
05:23into the extremely
05:24backward community
05:26the other backward
05:27castes
05:28in terms of
05:29trying to say
05:30that
05:31the government
05:32the current government
05:33whether it's in the state
05:35or at the centre
05:36is discriminating
05:38against the
05:40underprivileged
05:41while
05:42the 10%
05:43of the upper caste
05:44are taking away
05:46all the cream
05:47and very importantly
05:48he said this earlier
05:50about the judiciary
05:51in the parliament
05:52but this time round
05:53he's taken that battle
05:55from
05:56the parliament
05:57to the political
05:59battleground
06:00of Bihar
06:00and roping in the
06:03armed forces
06:03must be extremely
06:04extremely dangerous
06:05and going down
06:06a completely
06:07unwarranted
06:08and unwanted
06:09slippery slope
06:10and do keep in mind
06:12and I want our viewers
06:13to know that
06:14one
06:14as far as
06:15the Indian armed forces
06:16are concerned
06:17merit
06:18fitness
06:18these are two things
06:20that are seen
06:20and when it comes to
06:22making the supreme
06:24sacrifice of their lives
06:25for this country
06:26from 1947
06:27till date
06:28religion does not matter
06:30there are
06:31Mahavir Chakras
06:31the second highest
06:33gallantry award
06:33that's been awarded
06:34the Parameer Chakra
06:35the nation's highest
06:37gallantry award
06:37Postovus
06:38irrespective of caste
06:40creed
06:40sect
06:41it's been awarded
06:42to the most deserving
06:44meritorious
06:45brave
06:46of our country
06:47and perhaps
06:48when it comes to
06:49our armed forces
06:50we must ensure
06:52it's merit first
06:54and India first
06:55and no politics
06:56should be brought
06:57into this aspect
06:59national security
07:00cannot be played
07:01around with
07:02as lightly
07:03as this
07:04but we'll get you
07:05more on the story
07:06I now want to
07:06shift focus
07:07to our other
07:08big story
07:09Bengal Chief Minister
07:10Mamata Banerjee
07:11today took the battle
07:12over the special
07:13intensive revision
07:14of the electoral rolls
07:15to the streets
07:17of West Bengal
07:17claiming this
07:19was silent
07:20invisible rigging
07:22by the BJP
07:23that's what she's alleged
07:24the SIR process
07:26after Bihar
07:27has now started
07:27across 12 states
07:28and union territories
07:29across the country
07:30and the opposition
07:31whether it's the
07:32TMC in Bengal
07:32or DMK in Tamil Nadu
07:33they're calling
07:34this process
07:35dilution
07:36of democracy
07:37the BJP
07:38hit right back
07:39accusing Mamata Banerjee
07:40of leading
07:41a Jamaat rally
07:42protecting
07:43ghuspethiyas
07:44or infiltrators
07:45from illegal
07:46Bangladeshis
07:47to Rohingyas
07:48on India first
07:49we get you
07:50all sides
07:51of this fiery
07:51face off
07:52but first
07:53this report
07:54politics explodes
08:05as India's
08:06voterless
08:06clean-up drive
08:07kicks off
08:08across 12 states
08:09and union territories
08:10the election commission
08:12has billed it
08:13as a routine update
08:14but on the ground
08:16this is turning
08:17into an all-out
08:18political showdown
08:19West Bengal
08:21chief minister
08:22hit the streets
08:23in Kolkata
08:23in a massive
08:24show of strength
08:25the TMC
08:26accused the centre
08:27and election commission
08:28of plotting
08:29to strike off
08:29genuine voters
08:30especially the poor
08:32migrants
08:33and minorities
08:34in a
08:47time
08:47in a
08:48Asian
08:49among
08:49the
08:50people
08:51who
08:55are
08:56The BJP fired back, calling today's march a ghus perthya bachao yatra and claimed Bengal's
09:13voter base has jumped 67% since 2001, alleging illegal infiltration propped up by the TMC.
09:21It's not a political program, it's a program of Jamaat. Jamaat, Jamaat Michil led by Khala
09:31Mamta Benarji. A particular community participated, the TMC, the Mamta Benarji is trying to protect
09:40the Muslims, Bangladeshi Muslims.
09:42But Bengal isn't alone. Down south, Tamil Nadu is heating up too. The DMK has moved the
09:49Supreme Court, calling the voter revision unconstitutional.
09:52We are opposed to, we are going to court, RS Bharati has filed a petition in the Supreme
09:59Court, other parties will also. We want the direction from the court as to. We are not
10:04against FISAR. But what had happened at Bihar, we see that it is anti-people, anti-democratic.
10:13So we don't want such things to happen in Tamil Nadu.
10:17On ground, at an SIR camp in Ambatur, DMK and BJP carders clashed over questions to officials.
10:26The meeting resumed, but the political battle clearly hasn't cooled. The SIR 2.0 clean-up
10:32is underway. The debate over clean lists or clean politics just getting started.
10:38Bureau reports, India Today.
10:45So, taking to the streets to protest the alleged dilution of democracy, or is this a ghuspethia
10:51bachao aandolan? The battle lines are very clearly drawn. Joining me on India First is Radhika
10:56Kheda, national spokesperson of the BJP. Tawseep Ahmed Khan is an advocate, political analyst
11:01in sync with the TMC's thinking. Joins us on the show. Also with us is Selam Dharani Dharan,
11:08DMK spokesperson. And Mohamed Ameen is former joint director of the election commission to explain the
11:15process to us. And Tawseep, let me begin by asking you, sir, why protest what is being described as a
11:20constitutional process to purify the electoral rolls? The BJP says Mamata Banerjee led a rally of the
11:27Jamaat, which they claim is a ghuspethia bachao rally, protecting the illegal Bangladeshi vote
11:34bank, sir. Godot, the government may claim whatever they want. They can say that it is
11:40the clean-up of the electoral roll and it's a constitutional process, but they had forgotten
11:47about it just before the parliamentary election. They started this process after Mr. Modi became
11:56the prime minister. Right after that, they have started and they started it with the non-BJP states.
12:01And in the background, we see BJP leaders openly saying that 1.2 crore voter names will be removed
12:09from Bengal and BJP will come to power. Definitely, they have some kind of mathematics. They must have
12:16prepared the draft voter list. And it seems that they will share that voter list with the EC.
12:22EC is being given a task to just put a stamp on it so that in their own perception, BJP thinks that this
12:28is how they will come to power in Bengal. Please remember in 2002, when the last SI was conducted
12:35in Bengal, there was a good gap of two years before the next election was conducted. The election was
12:41conducted in 2004 and the SI had started in 2002. So there was a good gap of two years to make any
12:47correction. We have seen that if such a humongous task is carried out, obviously there's bound to going to be
12:53a fault. There's going to be genuine voters whose name would be removed. And then there's an entire process
12:59through which the citizen's name can be included. It's a long process and it requires time.
13:04Yesterday only, more than 100 BLOs recruited by the election commission were protesting after the training camp.
13:15They said that this is an inhuman task. They cannot take the workload being put on them.
13:22It's inhuman and it cannot be completed. Fair enough. Let me bring in Radhika Kheda to respond.
13:28The TMC allegation Radhika Kheda is that this entire process one is politically motivated.
13:34The allegation is it is to target minorities and marginalized and it's been curtailed to one month.
13:41What should have happened as Tawseev says over a two year period. Also respond madam to the BJP alleging that
13:47there are serious irregularities in documents issued by the West Bengal government under the Duaare Sarkar scheme.
13:54What are those alleged irregularities?
13:57Good evening to everyone. Well see the only people who have a problem with this entire SIR process are those who want
14:05who are out on a Ghuspaitiya Bachau Andalun. And we saw that happening on the streets of West Bengal today.
14:11When a woman is raped in West Bengal, Mamata Banerjee goes on to say that it should not come out at night after 11pm.
14:17A chief minister who cannot protect the women of a state has openly come out to protect the Ghuspaitiyas because those are her vote bank.
14:25She relies on those people for her vote. She relies on Booth capturing for her vote, which is why she is rattled.
14:31Now they own India Alliance partners in Bihar. Let's take an example from Bihar.
14:35Well, they own India Alliance partners, not one official complaint from any of the Booth agents that have been appointed by either Tejasri's party or Congress party.
14:46There is not one formal complaint. If the spokesperson of the TMC can show me one formal complaint by either of them
14:51that so-and-so name was removed and they could not be a voter in Bihar, the process has gone very smoothly.
14:57Some names, which worse, it's a human error if some names were cut, but they were re-added.
15:02And multiple journalists from various news channels have gone on to report and people have said that there has been no problem that they have faced and their names have not been cut.
15:12I will repeat again, the only people who have a problem are the ones who are Ghuspaitiyas and who are relying on the vote bank.
15:18Now, having said that, there was one more thing that the TMC spokesperson was saying that why is it being done?
15:26There's very little time. There's enough time. Why are you worried?
15:29What is your worry exactly? Which votes are going to be cut?
15:32And we've seen that even in Jharkhand when the Alliance was fighting an election,
15:37the Congress leader Ghulam Ahmed Mir went on record to say that the 500 rupee cylinder that we will give will be also for the Bangladeshi people, the Rohingyas.
15:47Now, they have themselves said that they want to give the 500 rupee cylinder, which are for the citizens of India,
15:54which are from the hard earned money. We are going to give out those from the people of India. Why should they give it to the Rohingyas?
15:59Let me bring in Selam Dhani Dharan for a perspective from Tamil Nadu. Why is the DMK opposed to the revision of the electoral roll, sir?
16:07This process, you know, TMC also describes as being rushed through in an unreasonably short period.
16:14If the election commission says there is a month's time that's given, if there's an objection, raise that objection, it will be addressed.
16:22And there are multiple tiers to it.
16:25See, very simple. Firstly and foremost, I think you made a point saying it's there in the constitution.
16:29If this is there in the constitution, then why is the census not done?
16:34India is the only country that has not done its census, right?
16:37The census is pending for the last four years. Why? That's preposterous, right?
16:40Census should have, exercise should have been started in 2009 and finished by 2021. You haven't done it.
16:45And first, that's the first point. And second, does the institution have the credibility? That's the whole point, right?
16:51It has so happened that the first time ever that two election commissions had to resign and India had to operate only with one election commission before the 2024 elections.
16:58And even during the 2024 elections, number of vote polled and votes counted in 150 parliamentary constituencies were not equal.
17:06In fact, the election commission gave the percentage of vote that was casted but never gave the number of people voted.
17:11It's very obvious. It's a very simple calculation. If you give the percentage, it's very simple to give the number of votes polled also.
17:18They didn't do that. In fact, a lot of think tanks including VDEM has spoken about institutional bias in India and has degraded India from a democracy to an electoral autocracy.
17:28Sir, VDEM itself has major issues and those issues with VDEM. VDEM has been pointed out and a lot of these foreign agencies, you know, only certain elements in our country take them seriously despite a lot of inaccuracies in their reporting, sir.
17:43But that's a separate debate for another time. We've had it on India today. I want to bring in Mohammed Ameen on some of the points that you have raised.
17:49No, no, I think I'm not letting you speak.
17:50I'm letting you speak but I will, you know, I am surprised you would quote VDEM and…
17:54See, I think it's very unfortunate that if something that benefits the BJP party, then you quote the foreign magazine, right? But if it doesn't show BJP in a good light, then it's a foreign institution.
18:06Sir, VDEM is targeting not BJP but India as a country. You know, India belongs to you and I. BJP is not India.
18:15That's the problem. We stand for India but we don't stand for BJP. That's the difference. Right? I like India more than you.
18:21Okay, learn to make that distinction because I said VDEM targets India as a democracy. You should make that distinction. Fair enough. You may have a point of view.
18:30You may have a point of view. Let me bring in Mohammed Ameen. Okay, you are saying election commission is non-partisan? Is not non-partisan? Mr. Ameen…
18:39Give me five minutes and I'll explain. Okay, let me bring in… Sir, we have to keep this conversational. We have to keep this conversational.
18:46Mr. Ameen, as a former Joint Director of the Election Commission, your assessment of the points that are being raised by the objection…
18:53One, is the process politically motivated? Is it being rushed through? And, you know, DMK says election commission is biased. You agree, sir?
19:06Mr. Gaurav, you know, the election commission is constituted after the independence and 1952 started till date. The election commission is doing fairly election…
19:17Very fair poll in country. For assemblies, parliament… There is no problem for everyone. But nowadays we see…
19:26After the formation of the BJP government, every time they are criticizing to the election commission of India.
19:32SIR process is a regular process. Earlier also, 2002, 2003, 2004. And this is the…
19:41We can say the purification of the system of the voter list. So, that's why we are going to purify the voter list.
19:51So, why they have the who and cry? This is the regular. And you… I'm giving the example. Like the voter…
19:57Voting cast, we have the polling agents for all parties in all places, assembly and parliament. And the same thing happen…
20:04You can find in case of the counting. They call counting agents. This time, the election commission has given the…
20:11Free or fair voter list to be prepared with the help of the… our stakeholders.
20:17Means our BLO is going to door to door and their BLAs for all party BLAs are going to assist them.
20:24If they have any problem, they can guide them. They can help them. Otherwise, they can complain to the BLOs, to the AERO.
20:31And AERO and BLOs both are complained by the public to the CEO.
20:37Okay. If they have any problem…
20:39So, you are saying there are multiple tiers of grievance redressal. But Tawseev has raised the point that BLOs are complaining.
20:46You know, too much work is being given to them. It's inhuman. They will not be able to do it. Respond to that point, sir.
20:53No, no. BLOs are assisted by their BLAs for all parties. So, where is the problem for the opposition?
21:03All their persons are there, along with the BLOs. So, nothing will be happening wrong or added in the list.
21:09Purely, this will be going down. You see…
21:12The voter ID card, clear cut. Colored pictures. Digital. Their correct names, their date of birth, their place of where they are residing.
21:25So, these are the things that are done digitally and everything is done by the election commission.
21:30Okay. So, why is the problem that they are assisted by their BLAs?
21:33So, Tawseev, is there merit in the BJP, Bengal BJP chief saying that there is anarchy and lawlessness now in Bihar?
21:40TMC is only trying to ensure that its Bangladeshi and Rohingya voters, the illegal voters remain in the electoral list.
21:51And that is why they are spreading lies about loss of life due to SIR fears.
21:57Respond, sir.
21:58Gaurav, I will respond to that. But firstly, Honorable Joint Director, former Joint Director of EC, perhaps is not aware of the fact that I said.
22:09In Malda district, more than 100 BLOs recruited or undergoing training in the BDO office.
22:16They protested yesterday and they said that it is a humongous task. It's an inhuman task.
22:21And they were overloaded with work and it is not possible for them to do it.
22:26He needs to respond to that. Secondly, the point that you raised, you see, this political leader, Subindu Adhikari,
22:35he every now and then says that we will throw away all Muslims.
22:41And then after purposely saying Muslim, he then qualifies it with Rohingya and Bangladeshi.
22:46Then he says that more than 1.2 crore voter name will be removed by BJP MP Shantanu Thakur from Bengal.
22:54He on record said in a meeting that 1.2 crore voter's name will be removed from Bengal and we will win the election.
23:01So who is preparing the voter list?
23:03Can I please respond?
23:04Yes.
23:05The BJP is preparing the voter list in which constituency, how many votes have to remove so that they can win the election.
23:15Because there is a small number.
23:16Okay, Radhika Kheda, respond. Is the election commission preparing it? How does the BJP know that 1.2 crore voters will be removed?
23:22And when leaders like Dilip Ghosh allege that there is a change in demographic profile in Bengal, opposition says that's failure of the BJP, it's failure of the Home Ministry, it's the job of the border security force to check infiltration.
23:36There are multiple questions that I need to address here. The DMK spokesperson said why was the census not conducted?
23:43Sir, you remember we've been, the whole world was facing Covid which was why when the census was supposed to be held it was postponed and it's going to happen next year.
23:51I don't know, since Covid.
23:52I did not speak over you. Let me complete. If you saw there is a time, you have to come out of Covid. There were so many things that the country had to get back on track to.
24:02When you were shut down because of Covid, so many things went into backlog. Everything had to get back on track. The economy had to go back on track. You needed new people. Everything had to be done.
24:12So that took time. And the census is going to take place next year. And let me also remind you, the SIR last time also took place under the Bharatiya Janta Party government.
24:19Whenever the UPA or your alliance government comes into power, you only concentrate on doing scams and scandals and getting the Rohingyas and the unfiltered people into the country, which is why they need to be cleared, which is why when the last SIR was conducted was under the BJP NDA government.
24:33And then you had the government for 10 years and God knows how many Rohingyas you got into the country, how many infiltrators you got into the country, which need to be cleared.
24:42Secondly, he was talking about how our election commission is compromised. But obviously they will talk about the election commission being compromised because they have these people to look up to.
24:52K. Sundaram, Nagendra Singh, R.K. Trivedi, B.S. Ramadev, TNCH and M.S. Gill and Gupala Swami. And how can we forget Laveen Chavala? So they will think that they have compromised them also.
25:01Can I just get 10 seconds?
25:03Yes, without naming names who are not here to defend themselves is my only submission. Go on.
25:09K. Sundaram was given to Padma Vibhushan. Nagendra Singh was given to Padma Vibhushan.
25:13That does not indicate… That could be… Okay, that's your allegation. Go on, ma'am. Complete your point, ma'am.
25:20And when you are talking about… Let's come back to TMC. Now, as soon as the SIR was declared, the TMC leaders came out and threatened that they are going to kill the election commission people.
25:30There's going to be bloodshed in West Bengal to the extent that the TMC MP, Karyan Banerjee, has gone on to threaten to kill Sukanto Majumdar and Suvindu Adhikari ji if they come without CISF security.
25:43What are they afraid of? And I am telling you something very honestly, Gaurav.
25:47If someone is afraid, I do not believe that people should take their own lives. But this drama that the TMC is doing, that someone is getting scared and killing themselves and trying to put that blame of their own lapses and of their own insecurities and saying that this is happening because of the SIR.
26:04Why will anyone be scared to show their papers if they are citizens of India? If you are a citizen of India, Gaurav, will you be scared to show your documents and papers?
26:12Why will you kill yourself if you are just being asked for your documents? It's a normal process. Nobody is throwing anyone out.
26:17Okay. Election commission says there is a window. There is a window available from the 9th of December to the 8th of January. Submit any claims or objections that you may have.
26:27Election commission says it's a very transparent promise and a process. The real voters will not be deleted.
26:33Those who have died or migrated permanently or those who may be voters in two places, only they are being removed from the electoral rolls from one place.
26:42Now, is the objection only political? Because BLAs, as Mr. Amin said, BLAs of your party, for example, if a name is being wrongly deleted, bring facts, have it added to the list, sir.
26:57Unfortunately, I think I should be given more time. The BJP spokesperson has a lot of time. Go on, sir.
27:01And I think instead of asking a question, you went on a monologue again. I don't know. The firstly and foremost, the BJP spokesperson has answered my question. She said, we didn't do the census because we had other things to do after Covid. But then you want to modify the rules.
27:15The deleted voters were not going to vote for you. What happened in Bihar? See, I stopped. I did not intervene when you spoke. What happened in Bihar?
27:22Go on, sir.
27:23No number of voters were deleted. Only Mr. Dhani Dharan. Go on, sir.
27:29No number of voters were deleted. More minorities were deleted. So, why is this clustering of minorities? Why are those who do not have, rather who needs to be represented, are not given a chance to vote?
27:41So, they were the ones who were excluded. My party stance is that if you want to clean the rules, first do the census. After the census, take a year's time and do this. Without doing, this exercise is futile, right?
27:55Because a census takes two, three years. How will you do this electoral rolls cleaning in one month to 8.4 crore people? Bigger than France, bigger than UK. The country is.
28:05So, how will you do in Tamil Nadu in one month when you need two years to do census? Right? When census takes two years, how is it possible?
28:13Sir, you didn't answer my very specific question that I asked you about why would the DMK not help in case a correct name is being deleted?
28:22And why would the DMK not want wrong names to be removed from there? But Mr. Ameen, respond first census.
28:29Sir, I did, but time is of a premium. But Mr. Ameen, Mr. Ameen, Mr. Ameen, the last 30 seconds that I have on the show, Mr. Ameen, the last 30 seconds I have on the show, is there merit in the DMK spokesperson saying first census, first census and then SIR?
28:47Is there a correlation or SIR can happen independently of the census?
28:51SIR has an independent role, independent doing their job and they are not mixing for anything.
28:57Just they are having the challenge of the nationalship. So, the nationalship is no problem for that election commission.
29:07Election commission worry about their voter list only. We want the good and fine and correct voter list for the next poll.
29:14Fair enough. I will let that be the last word. But this debate clearly will escalate in times to come. I have run out of time on this part of the show.
29:22cherni
29:23cherli
29:24cherli
29:28cherli
29:30cherli
29:32ater
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