00:00A U.S. Supreme Court case will be heard this Wednesday on the legality of the trade tariffs imposed by U.S. President Donald Trump.
00:08Trump invoked the little-used law of 1977, the International Emergency Economic Powers Act,
00:14to impose what many informed observers see as arbitrary penalties on all countries who trade with the United States,
00:20the U.S., of course, the main economic superpower in the world.
00:24A major question hangs over the Supreme Court's closely watched case then on President Trump's far-reaching tariffs.
00:30Will the conservative majority hold the Republican president to the same exacting standards it used to limit his Democratic predecessor, Joe Biden?
00:41An apparel company in Vermont is one of just a handful of small businesses at the center of a legal battle over Donald Trump's wide-sweeping tariffs, now before the Supreme Court.
00:52Now we're subject to an ever-waiving amount of tariffs or costs to the company that seems unfair, it seems sporadic.
01:05The lawsuit centers on a question of presidential authority.
01:09Under the Constitution, only Congress has the power to impose taxes.
01:13But Trump invoked a 1977 law called the International Emergency Economic Powers Act,
01:19which gives the president emergency powers to deal with any unusual and extraordinary threat
01:25to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States.
01:29That includes the power to regulate imports.
01:33But lower courts have ruled against Trump's argument that a trade imbalance and the trafficking of fentanyl constitutes such an emergency.
01:40China, first row.
01:41Since announcing widespread tariffs on just about every U.S. trading partner back in April,
01:46Trump has weaponized tariffs, most recently using them against Canada for airing a TV ad he didn't like,
01:53and against Brazil for prosecuting his friend, former President Jair Bolsonaro.
01:58While meant as a form of punishment for other countries,
02:01the owner of Terry Precision Cycling says it's he and other American businesses who are paying the cost.
02:08We're always doing the right thing, and it seems a travesty to have this company dissolve just for an undue burden.
02:18If the Supreme Court decides to undo the tariffs,
02:20it's unclear how the billions of dollars already collected would be returned to those who shouldered the cost.
02:26If the court rules against them,
02:28Trump officials have vowed to find another legal argument to keep the tariffs in place.
02:33So, legal or not, let's get some insight.
02:37Frederick T. Davis joins us, former federal prosecutor and now lecturer in law at Columbia.
02:42Fred, always a pleasure to have you on France 24.
02:43Great to see you, and you're looking fantastic.
02:47Am I right in thinking this is as much a test of the tariffs as of the Supreme Court, isn't it?
02:53Because, clearly, some people might be expecting a court with a 6-3 conservative majority to find for the people who put them in place.
03:01Then some people might say, well, isn't the law supposed to be independent and not swayed by politics?
03:08Give us your sense of where we're going with this one, Frederick.
03:11Well, you put it perfectly.
03:14I mean, I think, yeah, fasten your seatbelts.
03:17We're going to find out whether the Supreme Court is going to stand up.
03:20Look, there's no polite way to put this.
03:23Trump is trying to destabilize American democracy.
03:26He really is.
03:27And he's doing it in significant part by destabilizing or deconstructing the separation of powers concept that every democracy has.
03:36Namely, the notion you have checks and balances with a legislature, an executive, and the courts.
03:42The Constitution clearly gives Congress the power to regulate tariffs.
03:46It's in the Constitution.
03:48And they've delegated some power to tweak that a little bit, to do some fine-tuning.
03:54But it's clear that the Constitution did not allow and the legislature did not allow Trump to come up with new tariffs.
04:00As you point out, he is claiming that the IEPA gives him independent power to do this, claiming that there's an emergency.
04:09Now, among other things, it's a little bit odd that he's simply saying, at the same time he's saying it's an emergency, he's also saying, look what a great job I've done.
04:17Our country is doing great.
04:19The economy is better than ever has been.
04:21And at the same time, he's saying it's an emergency.
04:22But the real issue is, who determines that?
04:25I mean, he is saying the Supreme Court shouldn't mess with me saying it's an emergency.
04:29It's up to me to say whether there's an emergency and, therefore, whether the IEPA applies at all.
04:35And if five members of the court buy all of those arguments, basically saying, oh, we'll stay out.
04:42The president says the law allows them to do this, and we're not going to second-guess that.
04:48We're in real trouble.
04:49I think they probably won't.
04:51But we're going to be learning a lot on Wednesday during the argument.
04:55And keep in mind, this is only the first of several pretty big decisions heading into the Supreme Court dealing with these powers.
05:02And how important, then, is it that the Supreme Court is seen to actually take this in an objective way?
05:09Because surely if it doesn't, it calls into question everything that it does.
05:14Well, that's absolutely right.
05:16I mean, there have been scary statistics about the credibility of our Supreme Court with people in the United States.
05:23And it's just been stunning the degree to which a majority of people now think that the court is political just like everybody else.
05:31And that underlies, that undoes the glue of democracy.
05:35I mean, having the credibility of the courts to think they are there above politics.
05:40If we lose that, then people don't trust anything that happens that comes out of government.
05:46So I really think it is, are we showing up for democracy time or not?
05:51And it'll be very, very interesting to see where this goes.
05:55Frank, can I put you on the spot?
05:56Do you think Trump was within his rights to impose the tariffs that he imposed?
06:01Do you think that perhaps he's overstepped in some way, shape or form?
06:06There are some economic observers who describe them as arbitrary, almost extortionate measures.
06:12Well, you know, the tariffs are just, you know, from an economic point of view and from an international political point of view, in my humble opinion, stupid.
06:20I mean, the notion of imposing a tariff on our close neighbor, our best friend, just north of the border here, because we're annoyed about, you know, a movie that they put on.
06:31It's just ridiculous.
06:32Plus, the tariffs just change every day.
06:34We have a level of uncertainty in our country that is inhibiting business investment.
06:40But the real issue is the constitutional one.
06:42I mean, he's allocating himself a power that he does not have.
06:46And to me, that's just unambiguous.
06:48And the court should say so.
06:49Can you spell that out for people who perhaps don't follow that concept?
06:54And I will include myself in that category.
06:56In what way is it unconstitutional?
06:59It's unconstitutional in the following sense.
07:02One, the Constitution allocates the powers between the legislature, the executive and the judicial branch.
07:09Right.
07:10The legislature has the power to regulate tariffs.
07:12It's in the Constitution.
07:13The word tariff is in the Constitution.
07:16They have done so.
07:17They've passed tariffs.
07:18They also, in those statutes, say the president, you know, can negotiate fine tuning.
07:26I mean, you can't have the legislature every day looking at little things.
07:30But they're very, very clear you can't impose new ones or make big changes.
07:34That's just what the law is.
07:36Normally, the executive enforces the laws as they are in the books.
07:42Namely, I have a law that says I can fine tune.
07:44I can't do anything else.
07:45I enforce that.
07:46That's what the executive does.
07:48Then you have the third branch, which is the judiciary, that says, hmm, I'm here as the judiciary.
07:53I have these laws that the legislature passed.
07:56I have the executive that's doing what he or she is doing.
08:00It's up to me as the judiciary to determine whether what the executive doing fits within the laws, whether they're executing the laws.
08:07And if all three of those branches do what they say they're going to do, I think they end up saying, I, the judiciary, are making a judicial determination that the Constitution allocated tariffs to the legislature and did not empower Trump to do what he did.
08:23Therefore, he can't do it.
08:24QED, as far as I'm concerned.
08:26Thank you, as always, for joining us, Fred.
08:29We appreciate your time and we appreciate the clarity you bring to these complex issues.
08:34The case goes forward on Wednesday.
08:36Frederick T. Davis is former federal prosecutor and now elected at law at Columbia University.
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