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Dragons' Den (2005) Season 22 Episode 14
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FunTranscript
00:01We are open!
00:04Go!
00:06Go!
00:12You can...
00:15Yeah, just stretch, stretch.
00:18Hi, I'm Laura. This is Stacey,
00:21my business partner, friend and confidant.
00:25And we're from Nottingham.
00:27OK, great.
00:28I started dancing at the age of four,
00:31worked professionally and then decided to set up my own dance school.
00:36My experience in the dance industry was as it is disco dancer
00:40when I was a teenager.
00:42So our business is in the dancewear industry
00:46and we brought along four amazing dancers
00:48who come and show off our products
00:50and hopefully wow the dragons.
00:58I think so.
01:10Wow.
01:21Yeah, I think so.
01:23Very impressive.
01:25Hi, I'm Stacey.
01:26Hi, I'm Laura.
01:28We're the founders of Shays Dancewear.
01:30We are here today to ask for £75,000 for 10% of our business.
01:36Shays Dancewear is an inclusive dancewear brand
01:38that allows dancers to embrace their ethnicity
01:40from the moment they step into their first dance class
01:43and retain their identity throughout their career.
01:47As a dancer from the age of four,
01:49I have become accustomed to being the only one in the room
01:51wearing pink tights and pink ballet shoes,
01:54which obviously didn't match my skin.
01:56As a dance teacher of 30 years, in my experience,
01:59the lack of racial representation in dance education
02:02has impacted the lives of global majority students.
02:05Now, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term global majority,
02:08but basically it means that the majority of people
02:11on this globe are non-white.
02:13So we saw the gaps in inclusive dancewear
02:15and decided to develop our own brand to fill those gaps.
02:19So we remortgaged our houses,
02:21and in February 23,
02:23we launched our own brand, Shays Dancewear,
02:25with five products in four shades.
02:28In our first year of trading,
02:29we have turned over £58,000
02:31with a 53% gross profit.
02:33We are already partnered with some of the leading performing arts colleges,
02:38supplying to West End theatres,
02:40and are currently negotiating
02:41with some of the largest entertainment companies within the industry.
02:45It is our ambition to become the leading global dancewear brand
02:49that is genuine and inspiring.
02:51We would like you to join us on this journey.
02:53Because of the more voices we hear,
02:55the louder we become.
03:00Inclusive dancewear that caters for a range of skin tones
03:04is the offering from Laura Grant and Stacey Green.
03:09Thank you, dancers.
03:12Well done.
03:13You were brilliant.
03:14Brilliant.
03:14The pair are asking for £75,000
03:19in exchange for a 10% stake in their business.
03:24And the pitch has already made an impression on Peter Jones.
03:32That was good.
03:33Really good.
03:34Impactful.
03:35You definitely get exactly what the business is.
03:39What really hit me,
03:40you both have gone all in, haven't you?
03:42You've gone big.
03:43Yeah.
03:44You've remortgaged your houses.
03:47Yeah.
03:47Talk to me about that.
03:48We're two single mothers.
03:50So really it was down to us
03:51to lean on each other and decide
03:53if we really wanted to go all in.
03:56For me it was a no-brainer.
03:57Shall we do it?
03:58Are you in?
03:59And we agreed.
04:00We knew that that was the only way to do it,
04:02to do it properly.
04:02How much did you put in each?
04:05Yeah, so we put in just under £80,000 each.
04:09Wow.
04:13Stacey, Laura.
04:14Hi.
04:14Hi.
04:14Hi.
04:15First of all, thanks for opening my eyes to this.
04:19Because so often we just go through life
04:21and unintentionally don't notice the discrepancies.
04:24So I mean it.
04:25Thank you for opening my eyes to this.
04:28And is there a sort of an obvious route to market?
04:31I don't really understand the landscape.
04:32You're going to have to help me.
04:33Is there sort of a big distributor
04:35that once you connect with that distributor, job done?
04:39Or are you going to have to work really hard
04:41about getting into each individual theatre
04:43or each individual dance school?
04:44So the sales strategy really is, you know,
04:47it's a mixed income model in terms of wholesaling online
04:52and in shops.
04:53There's hundreds of dance shops across the country.
04:57And at the moment, where are you getting most success?
05:00Is it direct to the consumer or is it through wholesale?
05:04It's a mix of both.
05:06It's about 40% direct to consumer
05:08and then the rest through wholesale.
05:12Laura, Stacey.
05:13Hi.
05:14So last year you made the 58,000 turnover
05:17and a 53% margin and a net profit or loss of?
05:21Minus 27.
05:22Minus 27.
05:24Minus 27, yeah.
05:25Yep.
05:25I mean, we've got £90,000 worth of stock.
05:29Well, so that was going to be my next question.
05:31So I noticed, obviously, you've got the five SKUs in the range,
05:36but how many different sizes do you need to hold of all of those?
05:39How many different product lines do you have in total?
05:41So in the...
05:42Sorry.
05:43Sorry, I was just going to say that one of the reasons,
05:45you know, we were talking about filling in the gaps.
05:47There are other dance brands that have been around
05:50for many, many years that are offering inclusive dancewear,
05:53but they only do them in certain sizes.
05:56So our message is a child that is two years old
05:59that walks into their first dance class
06:01should be able to wear dancewear
06:04that matches their skin tone straight away.
06:05So it was important to us to make sure we got the whole range.
06:08Which is brilliant because you're driven by purpose,
06:11not just the figures.
06:12Yeah.
06:13But how many different SKUs do you have?
06:15So I couldn't tell you the number off the top of my head,
06:18but for the ballet shoes, we go from a child size 5
06:21up to an adult size 11.
06:24Wow.
06:24Yeah.
06:25And all the sizes in between.
06:26Yeah.
06:27And then for the jazz shoes, we go from a child size 10
06:30to an adult size 9.
06:31Right.
06:32So it's an awful lot.
06:33And, you know, the product range that you've got,
06:36obviously the girls that we saw come in,
06:38there was the top bits as well.
06:40So we're just having the leotards made at the moment.
06:43The leotards.
06:43Yeah.
06:43And I noticed they had four different leotards on.
06:46Yeah, yeah.
06:46So there's another few SKUs in another range of sizes.
06:50I mean, there's a reason why the fashion industry
06:53usually demands in exorbitant margins.
06:56I mean, 53% margin is actually really low for fashion.
06:59But because the stock holding is so cash intensive,
07:02because each product you're holding in multiple sizes,
07:04which is why a lot of brands just hold them in certain sizes,
07:08because it's so 80-20 rule.
07:11You'll make 80% of your sales from the 20% core sizes.
07:14Okay.
07:15So it's really hard.
07:16Yeah.
07:16So you're in a really, really difficult market already.
07:20Mm-hmm.
07:20But your stock holding, to be really credible,
07:24is probably going to have to at least quadruple
07:26from where you are now to get you on that right path and position.
07:31Okay.
07:32And that's before you start talking about buying in volume
07:34to be able to get the margins where they need to be.
07:40Stacey and Laura.
07:42Hi.
07:42Hi.
07:43At the end of the day, I can understand your mission.
07:46Mm-hmm.
07:46But also, I can understand this is a business.
07:50Mm-hmm.
07:51And you've got to try and differentiate the two.
07:55Yeah.
07:56All I'm trying to get to is you're trying to change something.
08:00At the moment, your turnover does not tell me that you're changing too much.
08:07This change is happening with or without us.
08:10It's happening.
08:10We've seen it in the bigger brands.
08:12Yep.
08:13We've seen it with the awarding bodies changing to skin tone dancewear.
08:16So, it is happening.
08:18So, you've mentioned that there's other brands doing this, correct?
08:20Yeah.
08:21And who are the brands?
08:22How big are they?
08:23They're huge.
08:24So, Block is one of the biggest dancewear brands, global dancewear brands.
08:29And then you have Capetia Dance.
08:30And how big are they turnover-wise?
08:31Oh, Block turnover.
08:32Turnover, 63 million.
08:33Stacey, Laura, I wonder here, because I completely believe that the change you're describing will happen.
08:42Mm-hmm.
08:43My concern, as I think about how this plays out, is that if your purpose is to be successful and you create the change that you're seeking,
08:51then all of the major suppliers of this equipment are going to offer the range.
08:55Yeah.
08:55And then where does that leave the profit part of your business?
08:59Well, I think that's really why it's important to do this now, because what we are then doing is we're being the leading global dancewear supplier of inclusive dancewear.
09:08It's interesting, because in business sometimes, but in life generally, the first person over the hill takes all the arrows.
09:13Right.
09:14And that's kind of my worry, is that, you know, the brand that's making the 63 million or whatever, they're going to sit, chill, wait.
09:21When culture changes, they pounce.
09:23So I go, purpose tick, profit question mark.
09:26Right.
09:27And even if the business, you know, becomes a nice earner for you, for you guys, which I hope it does,
09:32the real benefit of this business's existence, I believe, will be the change that you cause in society.
09:38So I applaud you for that.
09:39I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very best.
09:45I'm not even going to try and say it as eloquently as Stephen, because I absolutely, completely agree.
09:52This is important stuff.
09:56And I also agree, it's going to be tough for you, because the first people out there always are.
10:02I tell you what scares me at the moment for you.
10:05The number of SKUs, so that's the number of items you're going to have to stock,
10:11means you're going to have a lot of cash tied up in stock.
10:16£75,000 isn't going to touch the sides.
10:19So I'm really sorry, I'm really sorry, but I won't be investing.
10:23I'm out.
10:27Laura, Stacey.
10:28I reckon you're probably going to need five times what you've asked for.
10:37And I'm worried that the ask today really isn't the £75,000.
10:41It's going to be a kind of repeated funding of this business
10:44until we can get it to where it needs to be,
10:46or to go out and do a bigger fundraise,
10:49and you're not profitable enough to justify the valuations that we'd need to do a fundraise at.
10:54Potentially, I'd end up either having to buy a much bigger stake in the business
10:57or getting diluted to own a much smaller stake in the business.
11:00So from an investment opportunity,
11:03I can't get the numbers to stack to make it appealing for me.
11:07So I've got to say that I'm out.
11:12Laura and Stacey.
11:13Hello.
11:14What can I say?
11:15First of all, I think you've done a brilliant job.
11:20I can see your mission.
11:21That is definitely second to none.
11:25However, as an investment, from what I can see,
11:30it does make sense for me.
11:33So today, I can't invest them out.
11:39Hi.
11:40Hi.
11:41I think it's absolutely admirable that you have...
11:46And the commitment is off the chart.
11:49I do think you're going to do okay.
11:52I don't think that you have unwittingly risked your houses.
11:56I do think that if you continue...
12:00This is early stages.
12:01If you go to next year and you build again,
12:04I think you're going to have some traction.
12:06And I then think that's the time to raise potential investment for this business
12:10at a much larger level.
12:11Because you'll end up giving less equity away.
12:14You'll have traction.
12:15Because people love to buy things that are part of a movement as well,
12:21because it makes them feel good.
12:22And you've got that.
12:24I just think it's too early for me to invest today.
12:26So I'm going to say that I'm out.
12:28But I keep everything crossed for you.
12:31And I wish you the very best.
12:33That's it for Laura and Stacey.
12:42As the curtain falls on their hopes for investment,
12:46and they leave without a deal.
12:49Oh, disappointed.
12:51But proud.
12:52Yeah, very proud of what we've done.
12:55And glad that we've had the platform to share.
12:58I think they're going to make it.
13:01I hope they do.
13:03It's brilliant seeing what they've done.
13:04Unfortunately, they did a lot of money to make.
13:06A lot, a lot of money.
13:08They've put their house on the line soon.
13:09Yeah.
13:11We always say if we can educate one more person,
13:13so I feel like we've done that.
13:15To hear what Deborah said to us about we've opened our eyes that we'll take that.
13:28Hi, my name is Rajan.
13:35I'm from Nottinghamshire, and I'm an eye surgeon.
13:38This product that we've created helps everyone who uses it,
13:43and actually that is almost everyone on the planet.
13:48Rajan has recently swapped stitching for pitching.
13:53I am new to business.
13:54I've been in medicine and surgery for the past 20 years.
13:58I hope the Dragons will like my professional background
14:01and this product being inspired from a patient perspective.
14:05Perhaps that will be key to their interest in it.
14:10So will the eye surgeon-turned-entrepreneur
14:13prove to be a slick operator in the den?
14:18Hello, Dragons.
14:20My name's Rajan Bojwani.
14:21I'm an eye surgeon and founder of See The Tape.
14:25I'm here to ask for £35,000 for a 25% share in the company.
14:32A few years ago, I was presented with a gift from a patient who was visually impaired.
14:38She apologised for the fact that she struggled with the packaging.
14:41I was later informed by my children that the worst witch was looking for a spell
14:46to find the end of sticky tape, highlighting this as a common problem and something I wanted to fix.
14:53It wasn't until I was creating a training programme about how to examine the eye
14:59that I realised that there may be a relatively simple solution to this problem.
15:03So when we examine the eye, we use special techniques to examine for fine detail, fine lines in the cornea.
15:12That's the clear window at the front.
15:14And these are best seen against the dark black background of the pupil.
15:20Now, if you think about a roll of clear sticky tape, that's similar to the human cornea.
15:26A clear curved structure and the edge is a fine line, similar to a corneal nerve.
15:33So housing the clear tape on a dark background should similarly allow you to be able to see the edge in a bit more detail.
15:40We've spent the past four years in design, theory, prototype production and patent protection
15:47and have just launched onto the market at a recommended retail price of £1.49.
15:54Thank you for listening. I welcome any questions.
15:56Can we see the tape?
15:58Sure.
16:00Clear sticky tape against a dark coloured background, making it easier to spot the end,
16:05is Rajan Bojwani's potential eureka moment.
16:08So if you first of all have a look at the normal tape and see if you can find the edge of the normal tape
16:16and then just spin the sealer tape round and see how easy it is to find the sealer tape.
16:21I can't find the end on this one.
16:23On that? Well, that's the normal tape.
16:25Yeah.
16:26Rajan is seeking £35,000 in return for 25% of his company.
16:32Can I show you this one? Right, so I'll let this drop in your lap.
16:37So if you just spin that round.
16:38And just have a look.
16:41Do you see the edge?
16:43Yeah, it's there.
16:44There we go.
16:46Rajan's product appears to work.
16:50But Tuukka Suleiman is well versed at identifying a business's sticking points.
16:59Rajan.
17:00Yes.
17:00So how long have you been going as a company selling tape?
17:05Well, actually physically selling it only a few weeks.
17:10So what have you sold so far?
17:11Just a couple of hundred rolls.
17:13All right.
17:13So there's a market out there.
17:15I believe so, yeah.
17:17Yes.
17:18Rajan.
17:19Yes.
17:20When I've got sellotape at home, I've got it in a sort of dispenser.
17:24True.
17:25Especially if I'm wrapping, which I do.
17:27To be fair, most wrapping I do would be at Christmas.
17:30Sure.
17:32Tara, to be blessed, does most of it.
17:34But if I end up doing some wrapping, I'll end up using the dispenser every time.
17:37Yeah.
17:39So my question to you is, have you ever lost the end of the roll in that dispenser?
17:42Yeah.
17:42Good point.
17:43But that will go in a sellotape dispenser.
17:45That's what I mean.
17:46So like for like, if you've got a roll where you're going to lose the end, maybe if you're
17:50in a rush, and you can see the end, and you can purchase a roll like for like where you
17:55can't see the end.
17:56No, it definitely works.
17:57Yeah.
17:57Steve just did a test with me here.
17:59Yeah.
17:59And it took me, how long with that?
18:01It took him 30 seconds with the typical roll to find the edge.
18:05And it took him six seconds.
18:06And I, by the way, in both, with your roll, I really tried to hide it.
18:11So it's a 25 second saving in this test.
18:14When you're wrapping presents, sometimes you get lucky with a normal roll tape, but I've
18:18been there for two minutes throwing this thing out the window.
18:21With that, and the thing about this product is if you cut it and drop it, you're going
18:25to see it within a few seconds.
18:26You cut and drop the normal roll, it could be lost for minutes.
18:30And it's frustrating.
18:32It is interesting.
18:33It's just one of the reasons why I love sitting in this chair.
18:35I get to meet the most outrageous concepts.
18:38It's quite clever.
18:39I genuinely don't get it.
18:41And the reason I don't get it is the people, the big people who make this, they can very,
18:48very easily put a colour on the inside of their tape.
18:52I mean, which would, in a moment, take your business out.
18:57But why don't they?
18:59They don't.
19:00Because if I've got this on a shelf and I see what looks like a dark green tape, I'm not
19:06looking for a dark green tape.
19:07I'm looking for a clear tape.
19:09Sure.
19:11That's a good point.
19:11What's your answer to that?
19:14I think it's out of habit.
19:16We've kind of been habitualised over decades to scratch around with it and look at that.
19:21If, as soon as there's awareness there, the choice is clear.
19:24No, but the people who make the current tape are not trying to make my life difficult.
19:28They want to sell me product.
19:30Sure.
19:31And to change the colour of that card would be the simplest thing to do.
19:37True, but we've got a patent.
19:39You've got a patent?
19:40Yes.
19:41Goodness.
19:42What have you got a patent on?
19:45Sorry, we've got a patent for clear tape on a dark base.
19:52OK, I'm sorry.
19:53I've got to ask more about this patent because I can feel the staggeredness.
19:58That isn't a word.
19:59I just made it up.
20:01First thing I wrote down, patent.
20:03Wow.
20:05So, exactly what have you got a patent on?
20:08So, we have a patent on mounting clear adhesive tape on a base, which is black, near black,
20:19or any other colour close to black, which is within a range of light absorption values.
20:25Is that patent granted?
20:28I have a letter where it's going to grant this week, yes.
20:33Can I see it?
20:34Of course you can, yes, yes.
20:36It's here.
20:37Oh, the glasses are coming out.
20:39She means business.
20:41This is the actual patent.
20:45You do the claims.
20:46I'll do the letter.
20:48Patent, patent.
20:49Thanks.
20:51Anybody got a coffee or anything?
20:57Rajan, can you answer the key question that Debra raised a second ago?
21:01Because I really think that's a really important point, which is, if I'm a retailer and I've
21:05got the option of stocking this or this, I would think this was black tape and I would
21:09ignore it and I'd continue to search for the clear tape.
21:12So that's why our campaign will be focused on TikTok videos, on social media, to try and
21:17get it out there, get the awareness out there.
21:19I mean, the idea works, the concept works.
21:22I think the real challenge now is the behaviour change.
21:25So if we get the exposure, the social media, the knowledge out there that actually you can
21:34see the edge of tape now.
21:35Well, whatever, I'll just say, whatever...
21:39Claims, I've just got to claim one.
21:41...is reading, the IP office actually says that it is going to, it's recommended for
21:48a grant.
21:51So the intellectual property supporting this product is strong.
21:56You know, that patent document is very well written.
21:59Sure.
21:59And the claim is really strong.
22:01However, there's one thing to own a patent and there's another thing to defend it.
22:08So if you actually get any sort of traction, my prediction would be one of the big guys
22:13are going to come along and they're just going to be so aggressive with you and it's going
22:17to cost you a fortune to defend that patent.
22:20And for all I've said, it's strong you've got that patent granted.
22:23I wouldn't go into battle defending it.
22:25Okay.
22:26And I've got plenty of money to go and defend it.
22:28Sure, sure.
22:29So I'm really sorry, Rajen, I'm out.
22:36Look, you've done really well to get a patent.
22:39But I'd almost prefer that you go and see if you can license this.
22:44Okay.
22:44Then I think that could end up being at least a chance of success because nobody will know
22:49it better than the very people that actually are selling the majority of tape in the world.
22:54But I'm not sure you actually need me to help you to do that.
23:00But I'm going to say good luck, but it's not an investment for me today.
23:02So I'm going to say that I'm out.
23:06Rajen.
23:06So I totally, Peter's advice, very, very brilliant.
23:12You know, the big people who make this.
23:14Yes.
23:15Look at taking it to them and saying, look, bats look like that forever.
23:19How about you make it look like this?
23:21Now, they're very quickly either going to say no because it looks like black tape.
23:26Or they're going to say, Deborah Meaden was wrong.
23:29That's actually a really, really good idea.
23:32I hope they tell me that I was wrong.
23:35That would be the best option.
23:37But I think that is absolutely the next thing you do.
23:40And I beg you, please do not spend a lot of money bringing this in.
23:44Sure.
23:44And getting a load of stock and thinking that that's how you're going to, that's how you're going to make your millions.
23:51Oh, no.
23:51Look at licensing.
23:53But I'm afraid I can't see the path.
23:55So I won't be investing.
23:57I'm out.
24:00Rajen.
24:01Hi.
24:01I think you've had some great advice.
24:07You want to just get it out there to somebody.
24:10Let them pay you a royalty.
24:12Every month you get a cheque and you'll be happy.
24:14Hopefully.
24:16But today you've not proven to me that this is an investable business ongoing.
24:20And that's the reason why I'm out.
24:22Thank you for your advice.
24:25Is it just me?
24:28It works.
24:34It works.
24:36I am.
24:37I'm someone that loses the end of the tape a lot.
24:40I'm also someone that really will pay for convenience.
24:42But there's not really a business here at the moment.
24:47So as an investor, it becomes very hard to invest in this product.
24:51Sure.
24:51But I like a challenge.
25:01And who knows?
25:03Sometimes it's the simple, tiny, protected innovation that for whatever reason becomes a smash hit.
25:14And I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the feeling that this might be the one that got away.
25:20And I would love to be right.
25:23And these guys would never live it down if I am.
25:26So I'm going to make you an offer.
25:27I can help with the marketing side of this business, which I think is really do or die.
25:34Right.
25:36I'm going to offer you all of the money, the $35,000 that you came for.
25:40But I want 50% of the business.
25:45Okay.
25:45Thank you so much for your offer.
25:54So would you consider 40%?
26:08Rajan, you've got a deal.
26:12I mean, you've worked very hard, so let's see what we can do.
26:17All right, mate.
26:17Thank you, everyone.
26:20Success for Rajan.
26:22Who leaves the den with £35,000 and the backing of a dragon who's ideally qualified to tell the tale behind his tape.
26:32Flabber is gastered.
26:35I was feeling quite deflated towards the end, thinking this is probably four years of work, which is going to fail.
26:40But that lifeline's been indescribable.
26:44It's an absolute dream come true.
26:46Hi, I'm Andy.
27:02This is Josh, and we've known each other since we were 11.
27:04We actually met on the first day of school.
27:06Andy was the annoying kid that was always top of the class.
27:09Probably the brightest guy in the year.
27:11If you ask someone what they think of their mobile network, they normally pull an ugly-looking face at you and take a deep breath before they tell you all the things that are wrong with it.
27:26We're looking at improving the industry as a whole and building the most sustainable network that we can as well.
27:31Here goes nothing.
27:32Hi, Dragons.
27:42I'm Andy.
27:43And I'm Josh.
27:44And we're the co-founders of Honest.
27:46We're on a mission to build the world's best mobile network.
27:50Andy and I are old school friends.
27:51We've known each other since we were 11.
27:53And in 2019, we'd both been working in telecoms.
27:55We were catching up in the pub and found ourselves ranting about how terrible our mobile networks were.
28:01So we decided we'd try and build something better.
28:03We spoke to thousands of people before we started, and it was obvious that so many people really dislike their mobile networks.
28:10They tie you into long contracts and then put your prices up every year.
28:15Customer support makes you want to scream, and there are millions who are extremely unhappy with their mobile signal.
28:21So at Honest, we're doing things different.
28:23Your bill goes down every month just for sticking around, and we respond to customers in seconds.
28:29And we're about to launch our new product, SmartSIM, which gives you four times better signal in the UK and free roaming in 182 countries around the world.
28:39Plus, we're on a mission to build the most sustainable mobile network possible.
28:43We're the UK's first certified B Corp mobile network, and we remove double the CO2 that we emit.
28:48So far, we have over 8,000 happy customers, and our customer satisfaction score is almost four times higher than some of the big networks.
28:57We're here today to ask for £110,000 for 1% of the business.
29:02And we'd love for you to join us on our mission to transform this trillion-dollar dinosaur of an industry.
29:08A mobile phone network looking to disrupt the market by prioritising people and planet as well as profits is the offering of Josh Myhill and Andy Aitken.
29:23This is the main page of the app, so it makes it super easy to manage all of your Sims in one place, which is really great for families.
29:28They're looking for £110,000.
29:32If you tap into any of the Sims, it's really easy to change any of your settings, change any of your plans, and you can see here that I've already maximised my loyalty discount up at 30%.
29:42In exchange for 1% of their company.
29:46And this is our impact screen, so we try really hard to be as transparent as possible with our customers in terms of the positive impact that they're having on the planet,
29:53so they can track how much carbon they're helping to remove.
29:55Peter Jones may be the dragon most familiar with the telecoms industry, but Deborah Meadon is the den's queen of green,
30:03and all this talk of planting trees has pricked up her ears.
30:10Guys, hi.
30:11You've identified sustainability as one of the key issues, which on a shallow level, there's a lot of organisations that can very easily, you know, would plant a tree, carbon offset.
30:20So, what is it specifically that makes you properly sustainable, as opposed to exposing yourself to the accusation of greenwashing?
30:31So, firstly, we're certified B Corp, which means we're legally obliged to consider the planet in every decision that we make.
30:37We've, like, changed our articles of association.
30:39And then, secondly, we're a member of 1% for the planet.
30:41So, that means 1% of our revenue goes towards environmental causes.
30:45And then, the third point is around our carbon emissions.
30:49So, we are carbon negative, which means we remove double our carbon footprint as a business,
30:54which means that as a customer joining Honest, you know that your phone is a force for good.
30:59It's actually helping to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.
31:06Josh, Andy.
31:07Hello.
31:08Hiya.
31:08Hi, I'm Sarah.
31:09I don't understand.
31:11Can you just explain to me, in layman's terms, how come, if I move to your service versus one of the big providers,
31:17I could have four times better mobile phone coverage?
31:21Okay.
31:21So, that is the product we're about to launch.
31:23It's called SmartSIM.
31:24So, I'll give you a kind of 101 on how telecoms works in the UK at the moment.
31:28Peter might already know.
31:29So, in the UK, there's four big networks, 3, EE, O2, and Vodafone.
31:35They have about 80% market share in the UK.
31:39The other 20% of the market is shared between what's called virtual operators, which is what we are.
31:43So, we work mostly with 3, and from them, we buy data, we buy minutes, and we buy texts.
31:49When you want to talk to customer support, you talk to us, we send you the bill, we collect the cash, all of those things.
31:55So, that's what the core business does right now.
31:56But I would be using that other mobile phone networks.
31:59Exactly.
31:59Right, yeah.
32:00What we do with SmartSIM is super cool.
32:03So, SmartSIM is a secondary SIM that goes in your phone, and quite a lot of the time, it does nothing.
32:10But if you lost signal on, I don't know, let's say you're with Vodafone, your SmartSIM would kick into life,
32:15and it would connect you to either Vodafone or O2 or EE or 3's infrastructure.
32:20So, if there's a signal where you are, you'll be connected to it.
32:23Andy, Josh, really, really interesting business.
32:29My concern is just the competitive landscape here, because the competitive landscape is vicious.
32:35So, it's a super competitive market.
32:38We are competing against people with billion-dollar marketing budgets, and so...
32:43But how do you win?
32:43We win by having really amazing customer support and customers who love what we're doing.
32:54Andy, Josh.
32:55Hi, Peter.
32:57I do have a little bit of experience in this.
33:01I've done this.
33:03I've gone on the journey.
33:05I own Generation Telecom, which was exactly the same as a virtual network.
33:10And actually, 10-plus years ago, would you believe?
33:14I think there's no doubt that you're here for me.
33:19I understand that.
33:20But I'm just a little bit concerned about the size of where you've got to.
33:26Why are you at 8,000 customers?
33:28And to put this in perspective so it doesn't seem, because 8,000 sounds a lot.
33:32When I started, we ended up year two with 46,000 to 50,000 subscribers.
33:38Yeah, so we've focused less on those big sort of channel opportunities of going after huge industries and more on individuals.
33:47And, you know, we've been pretty constrained by cash over the years.
33:51We started the business on a credit card, and we've been pretty scrappy.
33:55And we've been focused on trying to keep as close to profitable as possible or as sensible as possible.
34:02I think you've kind of answered Peter's question there, which is, in fact, you're here for me.
34:06Because your key challenge in this business is customer acquisition.
34:13And I am the king of customer acquisition.
34:16Which, of course, they both believe, but we all know that you're here for me.
34:19Because, obviously, I have the sustainability audience that you're really, that's your key driver.
34:26If we're going to play that particular game, it's your turn now, Sarah.
34:28Right, I know, I know what you're really interested in is me, because crafting is at the heart of this business.
34:38And Tuukka?
34:40Well, you know that I don't get out of bed for 1% for a start.
34:44That's the word.
34:45I was waiting for that line.
34:46Right, guys, risk.
34:51So, what are your risks?
34:54So, we know that you rely on third-party signals and whatever.
35:00At the moment, you'll be free.
35:01Yeah.
35:02And for how long?
35:03So, the new contract that we will sign in the next couple of days runs for 24 months.
35:0824 months.
35:09So, at any given time, if they think you're a risk, negotiations could get quite difficult.
35:16Yes, if they wanted a way out.
35:17Yeah, if they want to.
35:18But they want big, successful customers.
35:21Of course.
35:22No, no.
35:22I'm just thinking of the risks.
35:25So, that's one risk.
35:26Yep.
35:26So, what other risks do you believe are a risk to the business?
35:32I think, you know, the biggest risk is continuing growth.
35:37It's really hard to grow.
35:38But you need money to grow.
35:40And you need money.
35:41If you can't raise money, you won't grow.
35:45Are you going to go, Dean?
35:47Do you go first?
35:49I can even switch the whole thing, so do you want to go?
35:52You go first.
35:54Okay.
35:55Guys, hi.
35:56Hi.
35:58Um, you've been brilliant.
36:01You've pitched really well.
36:03It's been really clear what your vision is.
36:06And I know this unequivocally better than everybody in this room.
36:14And guys, you don't have anything.
36:22You don't have anything here to invest in.
36:25You have no long-term contract, and I think that's a massive issue that you should have addressed before walking in here.
36:31You've got only 8,000 users.
36:34I think that's poor.
36:36And I haven't heard anything today that would make me or even incentivize me to want to invest.
36:42So, I'm going to say that I'm out.
36:43Okay, noted.
36:49I will follow.
36:53I think the product seems great.
36:55I feel like you've really educated me in the market, and I'm going to walk out of here, and I am going to sign up for your programme.
37:03Thank you so much.
37:04Okay, I'm going to break cover.
37:29Silence is a good thing from your point of view, by the way.
37:31I'm obviously deeply passionate about businesses generally becoming more properly sustainable.
37:41And I think you know I have a very clear and trusted and honest voice within that community.
37:48And, you know, listening to Peter, I can absolutely...
37:51This guy knows more than, you know, than anyone.
37:55So, it could have given me a wobble, except that I think you guys are exceptional.
38:00So, you know, I think you'll work it out.
38:04So, I'm going to make you an offer.
38:07I also recognize that more will be needed.
38:10So, I'm going to offer you half of the money, and specifically because I think there's some other opportunity within Dragons that would be able to help the business.
38:20So, I'm going to offer you half of the money for one and a half percent.
38:23And I'll tell you why.
38:25If you do want me out there, you know, properly representing you, it needs to be worth my while.
38:32You know, and I think when it starts dropping below that, you just become one of my investments.
38:39Yeah.
38:41It's my offer.
38:47Nice.
38:48Might as well.
38:49I think you're both great.
38:50The one thing that concerns me as an investment, this is a long-term investment.
38:58Five to seven years.
39:00Yep.
39:01I would have thought so.
39:02I just think I can use my money more effectively.
39:06So, I'm out.
39:07Okay.
39:08Thanks, Tuka.
39:09Andy, Josh, one of the best things that I could think I could do for this business is help you uncover a very cost-effective, innovative way to acquire customers through exposure to a large audience, if you know what I'm saying.
39:33I run a media company, and we worked with Giftgaff for two years, and our remit was customer acquisition.
39:40And I remember how difficult that battle was, and we discovered a couple of really innovative ways to acquire customers.
39:46But I know how difficult it is because of the competitive landscape.
39:50The best thing I genuinely think I could do is structure a deal in such a way that we give you access to really great audiences in a way that would mean that you don't have to spend so much money on customer acquisition.
40:00In the same way that Mint Mobile had access to Ryan Reynolds' audience and everything that he could bring with that.
40:09So, I'm going to make you an offer, and that offer is for all of the money, for the $110K, for 3% of the business.
40:23And inbuilt into my offer will be me getting behind the business.
40:30Cool.
40:30Thank you, Stephen.
40:34Deborah, where does that leave your offer?
40:37Well, I have only offered half of the money, so that is reliant on either you choosing Stephen, or whether or not you wanted to share, but that doesn't mean Stephen will share.
40:50We really see how much value you could both bring to the business.
40:53So, Stephen, would you be open to sharing?
40:55In this case, because of how I've structured my offer, I wouldn't.
41:05You could also ask whether or not I'd like my offer would stand, you could have, you've got to get more money than you came in for.
41:15Yes.
41:16Would your offer stand alongside Stephen's offer?
41:19It would.
41:19We're not sharing, it's just Stephen's doing his thing.
41:23On top of it.
41:24On top of it.
41:24We're open to that.
41:25Yeah.
41:25You get more money than you came in for.
41:26I thank you for your offers.
41:31We'd love to take you both on, on those terms.
41:33So, Deborah would get one and a half percent for 55,000 pounds, and Stephen would get 110,000 pounds into the business for 3 percent.
41:43Excellent.
41:44Amazing.
41:45What about you?
41:45Excellent.
41:46I'm so pleased.
41:48Well done.
41:49You're all good.
41:50Deal done.
41:51Josh and Andy may have given away more of their company than they'd planned to, but they leave the den with an extra 55,000 pounds, plus two dragons, with the exact skill sets they need to make their business a success.
42:05Well done.
42:06Well done.
42:07Well done.
42:07Well done.
42:08Super excited, actually.
42:09Really excited.
42:10Still a bit on edge.
42:13Adrenaline's still pumping, and yeah, still can't quite believe we left with more money than we were expecting to.
42:17Anyone know a mobile phone giant that we could talk to about advice?
42:26Really, really pleased with the two dragons that we got on board, and at the end of the day, it gives us more horsepower to go and show the industry how to do it properly.
42:47Hello, my name is Simon Sansom, and I am from Leicestershire.
42:50In 2014, I had a life-changing injury, and that was the inspiration for my business.
42:55I think my strength is that I'm living as a disabled person, where beforehand I was living as a fully mobile person, so I can see the world from two different perspectives.
43:06My weakness is I'm not a business person, and so I'm entering a world that I'm not fully aware of yet and learning as I go.
43:13To get an investment from a dragon would be fantastic.
43:18It just gives it that vindication that eight years of all that hard work, all that research, all that savings that I've put into it has come off.
43:29Hello, dragons.
43:31My name is Simon Sansom, and I am the founder and CEO of Snowball Community Limited.
43:35So, in 2014, I sustained a life-changing injury, and following months in hospital and a year in recovery, me and my wife visited our favourite restaurant, this time as a full-time wheelchair user, and it was a disaster.
43:51Having paid no attention to disabled access before, we were shocked at the lack of accessibility, but also the lack of information available to customers at the time.
43:59This was the inspiration for Snowball.
44:02So, what is Snowball?
44:03Think of it as an advanced version of TripAdvisor for the disabled community.
44:08It's a free app, available on Apple and Android.
44:10You can create a profile, and you can add places, leave reviews, and say if you'll go back, on how good or how bad the accessibility is.
44:19But it's more than that.
44:20You can now fill up your car if you need assistance, find an accessible toilet, changing places, facility, restaurant, pub, hotel, tourist attractions, and much, much more.
44:30Because we use Google Maps as well, we'll even direct you to your location and where you want to go anywhere in the world.
44:35On top of all this, we're launching a national disability access rating system.
44:40A Snowball assessor will come and visit your business and assess on how good or how bad your business is for disabled access.
44:47Okay?
44:47And we'll issue a rating for it as well.
44:49We have recently won the Santander UK National Award for the best startup business.
44:55We are also in talks with HSBC and Google.
44:59One in five people, I'm sure you're aware, have a disability in the UK.
45:02And according to the Purple Pound, it's worth £274 billion to the UK economy.
45:07I believe technology can improve people's lives, and I believe this app does just this.
45:11So, I'm asking for £80,000 for 15% of Snowball.
45:15Can I show you how it works?
45:17Please.
45:18Yeah, thank you.
45:20A free-to-download smartphone app, which provides its users with information about the accessibility of businesses and services, is the offering from Simon Sansom.
45:30So, that's the app.
45:32You download it, and you type in where you want to go, whether it's London, Leicester, Manchester, wherever, and then you select which category you want.
45:38For example, if we just choose a disabled car parking bay.
45:41Simon is seeking £80,000.
45:43And then it brings up the roadside car parking bays in Manchester.
45:46And if you click on this, go off the app, and then connect to Maps, and then you can see it's a 10-minute drive, and it will direct you there.
45:54In return for a 15% share in his company.
45:57And that works for any other restaurant, pub, tourist attraction, anywhere in the UK or anywhere in the world.
46:03Sarah Davies is first to explore the proposition.
46:11Excellent.
46:11So, I've got a good few questions for you, Simon.
46:13I'm sure you have.
46:14First one.
46:16Yes.
46:16Why Snowball?
46:18There's a number of reasons for that.
46:20One, it doesn't mean anything.
46:22You know when you talk about Facebook or you talk about Amazon?
46:25It doesn't mean anything.
46:26But also, because we're introducing the rating system as well, you can go to a business and say, does your business have a Snowball rating?
46:34Because you can't go to it and go, has it got a McDonald's rating or has it got, you know, it doesn't work.
46:38But if you've got a Snowball rating, people will hopefully recognise what it is.
46:41It's a brand.
46:41So, we're trying to build a brand.
46:42Now, that takes me quite nicely on to my next question, which was when and how are you going to make money?
46:47So, the Snowball scheme is obviously a membership scheme and we will go out and do an assessment of that business.
46:54And therefore, we charge £250 and therefore that generates income.
46:58And what we want to do eventually is move into a little bit like TripAdvisor where you can go and book a hotel knowing that there's a link on there.
47:06So, you know it's got an accessible hotel, it's got an accessible room and you click on that link.
47:09It takes you to that and you can automatically book a room which is accessible.
47:13So, once we've got all the companies on board, hopefully, we can put links on there which directs them to an accessible room or, you know, cinema tickets, theatre tickets, whatever it might be.
47:24Simon.
47:25Yes, Stephen.
47:27Congratulations.
47:28And well done.
47:29Cheers.
47:30What's your personal dream for this business?
47:36I'd love it to go global.
47:38That would be fantastic.
47:39And what's your strategy then for marketing?
47:41Because obviously this is a business that's contingent on network effects, as you say.
47:45Yeah.
47:46London on this app as a consumer experience is only valuable if there's other people in London using it.
47:51So, in terms of how you're going to make this reach those large-scale sort of network effects, what's the strategy?
48:00Get a dragon.
48:01Okay.
48:02Great strategy, Simon.
48:04Brilliant strategy.
48:06Simon.
48:07Peter.
48:08It's interesting.
48:10I always love a business when it does what it says on the tin.
48:12And I was thinking, what on earth is snowball?
48:15Yeah.
48:15And I was hoping your answer to Stephen then about what's the effect, how are you going to do this?
48:20I thought maybe you'd say it's going to snowball.
48:23Yeah, there is a snowball effect.
48:24Yeah, yeah.
48:25Because it can, can't it?
48:26It can very much so, yes.
48:27So, you said that you're having conversations with Google.
48:31We are.
48:32What type of conversations are those now?
48:35They're building a 10-storey building and they want to snowball in there to make sure that building is fully accessible.
48:41Because this does set a basic standard for every business to provide disabled access for their customers.
48:46And what could, if we go one step further, what could a strategic deal with Google look like?
48:52That I don't know because I'm not from a business world, so I'm not 100% sure on that.
48:56It'd look like Waze, wouldn't it?
48:57Exactly.
48:58Yeah.
48:59I'm sorry, I don't know what Waze is.
49:00I do apologize.
49:01So, basically, it's a traffic app for, it's like sort of maps.
49:06Okay.
49:06You type in a destination, press go, but the key part about it is because it's getting user feedback and interaction.
49:13Oh, from traffic users.
49:14From traffic.
49:15It tells you when there are traffic jams further ahead in advance.
49:19It tells you also where there are issues and it then reroutes you to faster routes.
49:24Exactly the same thing.
49:25Yeah, so, again, you look at a location, it'll direct you there and if not, it can direct you somewhere else.
49:29But if you can persuade Google to incorporate Snowball against their algorithm, you could find yourself with every location on maps, either with a Snowball tick or without.
49:50And obviously, initially, it will be without.
49:54But then you could do a click to review and update.
49:58Yeah.
49:59Because that would ultimately mean that you could have several million people paying you £100 a year, £99 a year for membership of Snowball for accessibility.
50:13Yeah.
50:14I think that that, for me, is where I think the opportunity is here.
50:19Yeah.
50:20I mean, the other thing is I work with Google.
50:21Okay.
50:22Brilliant.
50:22I think I could help very specifically working alongside and helping you within the Google empire.
50:32Okay.
50:34To find Snowball's place.
50:36Okay.
50:36And that's why I'm going to make you an offer.
50:40Brilliant.
50:43You've asked for £80,000 for 15%.
50:46I'm going to offer you all of the money for 25%.
50:52Okay.
50:53However, I'm also willing to share that with one or all of my fellow dragons.
51:03Because there's elements of where each and every one of the dragons plays a part in this.
51:09Mm-hmm.
51:10But I'd also very happily go on my own, £80,000 for 25%.
51:16Okay.
51:17Wow.
51:17Okay.
51:19Simon, I would like to add to what Peter said.
51:25I think this could be huge.
51:27Okay.
51:29And I think you've done the right thing coming here.
51:32Because I think Dragon's Den provides a variety of skill sets and contacts that we all have
51:37that really could allow us to divide and conquer in a really interesting way.
51:41Sorry.
51:42Do you mind if I just get...
51:42I'm just getting a bit overwhelmed.
51:43Do you mind if I just get a glass of water?
51:45100%.
51:45I don't want to...
51:46100%.
51:47100%.
51:48The offers are nice.
51:49It's really nice.
51:50Yeah.
51:50Yeah, yeah.
51:52Oh, sorry.
51:53Eight years is a long time.
51:54I can feel it, mate.
51:59It's difficult to do what you've done here.
52:01It's difficult to build some technology.
52:03It's difficult to get the network effects going.
52:06Yeah.
52:06It's difficult to conceive and design all of this.
52:10I even love the brand name and I always hate brand names in here.
52:12So I'd absolutely love to be involved and I'd love to support you in any way that I can.
52:16So I'm going to make you an offer, which is I'll give you all of the money, 80,000,
52:21for the 25% of the business.
52:24Okay.
52:24But I'm also willing to partner with a dragon or dragons to support this.
52:31Okay.
52:32Thank you very much, Stephen.
52:33Appreciate it.
52:34Suka.
52:34What I can bring to the party is on the retail front.
52:37Yeah.
52:38So I can get you in front of the right people.
52:42So I too would offer you all of the money.
52:44Yeah.
52:45That's 80,000 pounds.
52:46Yeah.
52:47But I'd also want 25%.
52:49But I'm also willing to share with my fellow dragons.
52:53Thank you very much, Tuka.
52:54That's very kind of you.
52:54Simon.
52:59Yeah.
53:00Wow.
53:00I know.
53:01I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed sitting here, so I can't even imagine how you must
53:05be feeling sitting there.
53:05Yeah.
53:06It's nice.
53:08I'm just getting a bit...
53:09So I know this hasn't gotten anything to this.
53:12My mum died a couple of months ago.
53:13She loves Snowball.
53:14And she used to go camping with my stepdad.
53:16And they used to leave reviews on campsites and pubs.
53:19And she'll go, oh, mum, you know, my son's doing this.
53:21And she would have loved this.
53:23So I do apologise.
53:23Sorry.
53:24I'm sure she'd be immensely proud.
53:26She is very much so, yes.
53:28But, Simon, it's a testament to what you've built over the last eight years.
53:32Yeah.
53:32And I believe that you are the right person to front this.
53:36You absolutely embody everything this business is about.
53:40So I am prepared to offer whatever split comes about in equal partnership.
53:46Cool.
53:46Thank you very much.
53:50Simon, so my sister's a wheelchair user.
53:54I mean, it won't surprise you to know, obviously,
53:56this is something that I care pretty deeply about.
54:00Yeah.
54:00Having had absolute first-hand experience and being blinking frustrated
54:04with, you know, with what Emma has to face all day, every day.
54:09So, surprise, surprise.
54:13What would surprise you if I said I'm out now, wouldn't it?
54:15Now, that would surprise you.
54:16That would really surprise me, yes.
54:17OK, well, I'm not going to.
54:19So, Simon, I'm obviously, I'm going to make you an offer.
54:21And I'm, you know, I'd love to be all in on my own, absolutely.
54:25You know, £80,000 for 25% or I would love to share it
54:29with your fellow dragons as well.
54:31OK.
54:33Yeah, I was doing Google searches on you, all of you, last night.
54:37OK.
54:38And you all do, you all bring specialist expertise to it.
54:42I would love to accept all your offers for 25% for the five of you.
54:47Yes.
54:48Wow.
54:49Thank you so much.
54:53Success for Simon.
54:55Amazing job.
54:56Thank you, Simon.
54:56Who's managed to turn his life-changing injury...
54:59Stephen, appreciate it.
55:00Thank you so much.
55:01...into a life-transforming opportunity.
55:05Take care.
55:05The fledgling entrepreneur leaves the den with £80,000,
55:11having secured a rare, clean sweep of dragons.
55:16Oh, God.
55:18Can't believe that just happened.
55:21You know what?
55:22I think that now has a much bigger chance of success with all five of us.
55:26No, good suggestion.
55:27Perfect.
55:28It was perfect, Peter.
55:30I'm just elated at the moment.
55:33I've got five fantastic dragons with great connections,
55:36and this could turn into a huge app to help millions of people.
55:41That's it for this series.
55:54Gosh, I feel a bit choked up.
55:55Dragon's Den will return...
55:57But for now, let's take a look back at some of the most memorable moments from this year.
56:07You all right?
56:08Forget the Copacabana.
56:09This is the ultimate Copacabana.
56:11A cock-free zone where all the ladies can relax.
56:14Did you actually just say those words to me?
56:18I will give you all of the money as long as I get my money between three months
56:21and keep the three percents.
56:24Okay.
56:24Great.
56:25I do.
56:26Why is everyone making that face?
56:27I'm a bit nervous.
56:28You are actually individually the definition of human beauty.
56:32Gross profit.
56:35I'm sorry, I haven't got that.
56:36Gosh, it was all going so well.
56:38Do you know if it gets recycled?
56:39Yeah, 100%.
56:40One billion plastic food trays end up in landfill.
56:44Get him, ladies.
56:45So, yes, you put it in the bin.
56:46You put it in the right bin, as far as you know.
56:48But what happens at the end of it?
56:50Mine goes into a recycling centre in Maidenhead and is recycled.
56:53You've been there yourself, I believe.
56:54He probably owns it.
56:55Yeah.
56:55So, I'm going to give you the 90,000 because I believe in the two of you.
56:59And you deserve that somebody takes a chance on you.
57:02His name drops so many names now.
57:04I'm name dropping nobody.
57:05He doesn't know anybody.
57:06I've got 50 years experience.
57:08Alex.
57:10Yeah.
57:10It's stressful, isn't it?
57:13I must be mad.
57:15You're not.
57:16You're not.
57:16You can bank on a geezer like me.
57:18What would you be offering for the 4%?
57:19100,000 between the three of us.
57:21No, we already had five.
57:22This is the messiest set of negotiations I think I've ever heard.
57:27My concern is your reliance of online.
57:30Trinia, doesn't it look like you agree with that?
57:32You always come up with this thing of, like, the end of D2C.
57:35And I just take umbrage because I think there is power in D2C.
57:39Let me tell you that I successfully sold for more than 200 million.
57:45Francisco, I'd like to make you an offer.
57:47I'll offer you all of the money you're about to ask me for for the percentage that you want.
57:51I can't imagine putting my house on the sale to fulfil my dream.
57:54That's so brave of you.
57:56But maybe there's a world where you ain't got to do that, you know.
57:58I've got to give you a little cuddle.
58:00I'm feeling a bit emotional now because you're up here, mate.
58:02You're struggling, ain't you, a little bit.
58:03You're all right, mate.
58:04You're doing brilliant, mate.
58:06You're doing great.
58:07It's emotional, man.
58:08But listen, you're doing great.
58:09Have a breather.
58:09Because I love it.
58:12Does that mean we've got a deal?
58:14But in that case, we've got a deal.
58:16Are you looking for investment for your business?
58:19I told you it came to me.
58:20Whether it's a start-up or a going concern...
58:23I know we put you through all of that, but I decided within about five minutes that I wanted to make an offer.
58:27If you think you've got the smarts, ideas and acumen to strike a deal with the Dragons...
58:32Done.
58:33Oh, amazing.
58:35Then head to bbc.co.uk slash Dragons Den and apply.
58:41Isn't that the biggest investment ever on Dragons Den?
58:44Yeah, biggest deal in the Den, half a million.
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