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Dragons' Den UK Season 22 Episode 11
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FunTranscript
00:00Come on, Ronnie. Good boy.
00:18Come on, Ronnie.
00:20Hi, I'm Chris Roberts, otherwise known as Ranger Chris.
00:23I'm from Aberdeer, and I'm 43 years old.
00:26Come on, Eva.
00:28I've always had a passion for prehistoric life,
00:30so I really wanted to do something that I enjoy doing and loved.
00:34And they're going to meet the dragons.
00:35You excited?
00:38Whatever you do, don't eat them, OK?
00:40You as well, don't eat them.
00:42Wow.
00:43Chris's dinosaurs aren't the only blast from the past
00:46to hit the den tonight,
00:48as Joe Wicks makes a welcome return as a guest dragon.
00:53Joe, I'm glad you came back.
00:55The dragons didn't scare you off.
00:57No, you didn't scare me off.
00:58I loved it, and I'm just really grateful that you've invited me back,
01:00so I thought, you know, you're going to get me in once,
01:01then kick me out and say no, but, you know, I'm here,
01:03so I'm ready to get going again.
01:05Let's invest.
01:06Let's do it.
01:07Once that goes green, we're walking, OK?
01:09And let's go.
01:11We've been trading for eight years,
01:12and it is time to take the business forward to the next level.
01:17This is it.
01:18I'm well-versed at taming dinosaurs,
01:21and today I'm hoping I can tame those dragons.
01:23Good luck, Eva.
01:25Good luck, Ronnie.
01:31Wow.
01:36Wow.
01:36Look at that.
01:49Easy.
01:50Back it up.
01:52Back it up.
01:53Come on, Ronnie.
01:53Come on, Eva.
01:54Back it up a little bit for me.
01:55Hello, dragons.
01:58My name is Ranger Chris,
02:00and I'm the proud owner of Dino Mania.
02:03Dino Mania, we use these amazing puppets that you see in front of you
02:07and many others, actually,
02:09to entertain and educate children all over the UK.
02:13We don't just educate, though.
02:15We actually also visit many festivals.
02:18We go to lots and lots of different events and museums.
02:22And we even have our own very special Dino Mania tour.
02:27That tours the UK, selling tickets to our amazing show,
02:30where these dinosaurs come up close and personal
02:32to all of the children and adults who come along.
02:36And we now are becoming one of the largest dinosaur entertainment businesses
02:40in the UK.
02:41And to date, we currently have over 3 million combined followers online.
02:45So, why am I here today, you may ask?
02:47Well, we're thinking of actually opening up
02:50our very own Dino Mania base camp,
02:53a fixed location where children and adults can come along
02:55and learn more about dinosaurs and the prehistoric world.
02:59Wow.
03:00So, dragons, I'm looking for £100,000
03:04for 15% of Dino Mania in its entirety.
03:08And we're hoping that today...
03:10Well, you know what?
03:11I've been taming these dinosaurs for a long time.
03:13We're hoping to tame some of you dragons today.
03:15So, no, behave.
03:17But does anyone want to come up and maybe...
03:19Could I...
03:20Yeah, of course you can.
03:21Of course you can.
03:21That's love to.
03:22Do you want to come forward?
03:22Come on.
03:23You behave, though.
03:24I give them a little bit of a...
03:25Bringing dinosaurs to life through educational tours and workshops
03:29is the offering from Chris Roberts.
03:32The eyes are amazing.
03:33It's so good.
03:35He's looking for a £100,000 investment...
03:38Good girl.
03:40Well, she doesn't bite there.
03:42...in return for a 15% share of his business.
03:44Well done.
03:45Come on, then, you.
03:46...guest dragon Joe Wicks...
03:48Thank you, guys.
03:49Well done.
03:50...is first up with the questions.
03:51Oh.
03:56Ranger Chris, what a pitch, mate.
03:57I absolutely love that.
03:58You've got me captivated.
04:00And your personality and your energy
04:02and your presentation of that is incredible.
04:03So I want to know, like, what's your background
04:05and how did you become Ranger Chris?
04:07It's a long story.
04:08My background's actually in window fitting.
04:11Oh, yeah.
04:12Didn't see that one coming.
04:13And I didn't really like it, to be honest.
04:15But when I first saw one of these dinosaurs on YouTube,
04:19funny enough, I actually thought I need to get one.
04:22And the story started there, really,
04:24when I got my first dinosaur, Ronnie the T-Rex.
04:26It's amazing.
04:27They're so realistic.
04:28And obviously, I've got four kids myself.
04:30And they love anything dinosaur.
04:32It's such an imagination thing.
04:34It really brings its life, seeing them move as well.
04:35Of course, yeah.
04:36And that's one of the key aspects of the business.
04:38When you're sitting there as a child with your toys,
04:40playing with dinosaurs,
04:42and you just want them to become real again.
04:44And that's one of the things we've gone for in the business.
04:47So talking about real, tell me the numbers.
04:50Give me some hard numbers about the business,
04:51the growth, what you've been doing.
04:52So just before COVID, we returned over $150,000.
04:55And we netted a small profit of $7,000, I believe.
05:02And then, of course, COVID hit.
05:04That year, we only turned over $23,000,
05:06with a net of minus $37,000.
05:10But the next year, we took it up to $280,000 in turnover.
05:18The net was $90,000.
05:20And then the year after, we done a $268,000 turnover.
05:24The net was minus $27,000.
05:27And now we currently are looking at $270,000,
05:32with a net of around $30,000.
05:36When I look at the growth profile of your business
05:39from a revenue perspective,
05:40over the last three years, you've been pretty much stagnant.
05:43Stagnant, you're correct, yeah.
05:44And so as an investor, for me to get a return anytime soon
05:48in the next sort of five, six years,
05:49we need to see some pretty considerable growth.
05:51Yes.
05:52How big do you think this business can be?
05:54And how do you prove that to me?
05:56So I'm a one-man band.
05:57I've been doing it all on my own for the past eight years.
06:00And there's only one of me.
06:02And I've started to learn that now.
06:05And I think we need to make more teams
06:07that can go to different festivals.
06:09We do loads of festivals.
06:10So your idea is to hire more Chrises around the country?
06:15Not just more Chrises,
06:16more teams that can go into schools, educational-wise.
06:20And how big do you think this business could be?
06:22The business, with regards to...
06:24We talked about the base camp at the beginning,
06:27making a fixed location.
06:28I think that fixed location can be a huge success
06:32with even a 60% capacity.
06:35You're talking about the base camp
06:36turning over about 1.2 million.
06:37You said you have 3 million followers online.
06:41What platform were you referring to?
06:43So we got 1.5 million on YouTube.
06:481.6 million when I...
06:51Sorry.
06:51Subscribers?
06:52Subscribers.
06:52That's amazing.
06:53And we've got 1.5 million on TikTok.
06:57Okay.
06:58What is the average view you get on a YouTube video?
07:01On a YouTube video, on a short,
07:03the average view on a short can be anywhere between
07:0620,000 to 30,000.
07:09But we've had some massive ones as well.
07:11On a long-form video?
07:12Long-form is terrible.
07:14Okay.
07:14So on a long-form video, what's your average view?
07:16Average view, 2,000.
07:18Okay.
07:18So...
07:18There's the problem.
07:19Yeah.
07:19So something's happened with your YouTube channel.
07:21Because a channel with 1.6 million subscribers
07:23should never be getting 2,000 views.
07:25I often look at it myself
07:26and I've been sort of trying to work it out.
07:28This is one of the reasons I'm here today, to be honest.
07:30Shorts, what happened was YouTube promoted shorts
07:33and it really pumped everyone's channels.
07:35But the real important thing
07:35is that longer-term sort of average view time.
07:37How many of the videos are shorts?
07:39Most of them.
07:39Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:41I'm going to say 90%.
07:44Okay, so that's an explanation.
07:45Yeah.
07:46We do a lot of shorts.
07:46Ranger Chris.
07:47Hello.
07:48Your actual plan for growth is this base camp.
07:51Uh-huh, yes, yeah.
07:52And where would it be
07:53and what are the characteristics
07:55that you're looking for
07:56in order to put it in a particular location?
07:58So, I'm looking for somewhere with a high footfall.
08:01That would be quite important.
08:03We have looked for one venue in Swansea
08:05that's very good links, a very good parking.
08:09And what would that cost you?
08:11It was...
08:128,000 a month.
08:168,000 a month?
08:17Yeah.
08:17Okay.
08:18Yeah.
08:18Okay, that's doable.
08:19And what would be the set-up cost?
08:21The overall set-up cost,
08:23we're looking at around 80,000 to 100,000.
08:26So...
08:26I've got to say, 80,000 to 100,000
08:28sounds really tiny
08:30when you're looking at a theme park
08:31to attract people.
08:33I'm not going to call it a theme park as such.
08:35Okay, what is it then?
08:36A base camp.
08:37So, it's an indoor...
08:38Yeah, well, you might call it a base camp.
08:39All right, I'm just talking generic.
08:41Okay.
08:42So, if we look at it in other respects,
08:44sort of,
08:44where you'd see kids go into a soft play area,
08:47it would be like that,
08:49where there's dig pits for kids
08:50and things like that,
08:51but they'd have the added extra
08:53of the walk-around dinosaurs,
08:56lots of, sort of,
08:57interactive animatronics
08:59and things like that.
09:01Ranger Chris Tuka.
09:03Hello, Tuka.
09:04Well,
09:06one-man band.
09:08Yes.
09:08You've been amazing.
09:09Thank you very much.
09:10You've been amazing.
09:10So, first of all,
09:12are you taking a salary out of all this?
09:14I am, yes, yeah.
09:16My salary at the moment
09:17is about 1,000 per month.
09:19And can you live on that?
09:21No, no.
09:22Luckily enough,
09:23I've got a fantastic wife
09:24who has a fantastic job.
09:26She works very hard.
09:28And she's supporting you.
09:29She is doing an amazing job
09:31of supporting me, yeah.
09:32So, I'm very curious
09:34about this fixed location.
09:36Yes.
09:37Assuming you walk out of this den,
09:40you get an investment
09:41from one or whatever dragon,
09:43how does that first two or three years
09:46in that one location
09:47look like financially?
09:49The fixed location,
09:50the first base camp,
09:51if we opened,
09:52I'm going to say
09:53for the first year,
09:54you're looking at a net profit
09:56of about 300k.
09:59So, in other words,
10:00from the 300th profit,
10:02Yeah.
10:02you could think about
10:03opening number two.
10:04Definitely.
10:05Definitely base camp number two,
10:06base camp number three.
10:07So, basically,
10:09how many do you believe
10:11you yourself
10:12could actually grow this to?
10:14So, if we're going into year one
10:16and let's say every year
10:18you open one
10:19for three or four years,
10:21how big can this get?
10:23If we did open one per year,
10:24for instance,
10:25I think we could easily do
10:26five to six different venues
10:28in the UK.
10:30So, that would have been
10:30five million, six million?
10:33Yes, yeah.
10:34You'd obviously...
10:35You'd have worked out some...
10:36Just to give us a nice deal of...
10:38So, say we open three,
10:40for instance,
10:41then,
10:42I think, realistically,
10:45then you're looking at
10:45around about
10:46four million.
10:53Ranger Chris,
10:55I've got to jump in.
10:57Peter.
10:58This is a bit of a dinosaur
10:59of a business.
11:01I mean, you've spent a long time
11:03trying to build a business here.
11:04Yes.
11:04And you're now giving forecasts
11:06that I think are, frankly,
11:07impossible.
11:08Okay.
11:09The reality is
11:10that you have
11:11created a
11:13really interesting
11:15business for you.
11:17Yes.
11:17And you have created
11:18a business
11:19that has not given you
11:20much income.
11:22However,
11:23it's probably brought
11:24a lot of joy
11:24to a lot of young people.
11:26For this to have
11:27any opportunity
11:28of becoming a business
11:29at all,
11:31you have to have
11:32one thing.
11:33Scale.
11:33And there is no question
11:35that one person
11:36can get scale.
11:37You know,
11:38look what Joe has done.
11:39Yes.
11:39He brought the whole
11:40nation together
11:41at a time when we
11:41desperately needed something.
11:43Yeah.
11:43And he had the most
11:44amazing impact,
11:45not just because
11:46of his personality,
11:47it was because he was
11:48bringing something
11:49to the community.
11:49And you can clearly see
11:51that he was passionate
11:51about doing that.
11:52Yeah.
11:53And I think you're
11:54that person too.
11:56And I think that's
11:57where we're at.
11:57But how do we scale this?
12:00How do we scale this
12:01is what I'm questioning
12:02because that's what
12:03I'm concerned about.
12:04So having a venue,
12:05I don't think is the
12:06answer for you
12:06because you're going to
12:07have for £80,000,
12:09you'll have a piece of land
12:10and a terrapin.
12:11And that's not good enough.
12:13So I can't invest
12:15because I just don't see
12:16there's room for an
12:16investor here.
12:17I'm going to say
12:17that I'm out.
12:18But thanks for bringing
12:19some dinosaurs into the
12:20den to meet some dragons.
12:22Thank you, Peter.
12:25Chris.
12:26Hi.
12:27And I am getting
12:28massive deja vu
12:29from when you were
12:31talking about the
12:32projections and the
12:34business and the
12:34fixer.
12:35So we, in my business,
12:37we had a successful
12:38business and we decided
12:39to open fixed premises.
12:41And if we could take
12:42X amount turnover,
12:43we had a fixed overhead
12:44base, making this
12:45amount of profit and
12:46then we'd roll and one
12:47would fund the next
12:47and would fund the next.
12:49Exactly what you just
12:50explained to Tuga.
12:51And I got wrapped up
12:53in when we were doing
12:54it and I got really
12:55excited.
12:55But then the reality,
12:57you know, if you don't
12:57hit that 1.2 million
12:58and you only hit a
12:59million, that 200 is
13:01straight off your
13:02bottom line because
13:02you've got your fixed
13:03overheads.
13:03Yeah.
13:04And it so quickly can
13:06become what looks so
13:07great on paper, the
13:09reality is starkly
13:10different.
13:10So I'm really worried
13:11for you on the new
13:13business front, but
13:14your existing business,
13:15you've done a great
13:16job getting it where
13:16it's got to, building
13:17that business, making
13:18it profitable, everything.
13:20You are a successful
13:21businessman.
13:22Hold on to that, take
13:23that forward and make
13:24a bigger success of the
13:25business that you've
13:26got.
13:27But I can't invest.
13:28So I'm going to say
13:29I'm out.
13:29Wish you all the luck.
13:35You know, as I've sat
13:35here and listened to
13:36this conversation, we're
13:37spending all of our
13:38time interrogating the
13:39financials of a new
13:40business.
13:41And so we're not
13:41investing in the product
13:42we have in front of us.
13:43We're investing in a
13:44promise.
13:44We're not investing in
13:45the business.
13:46We're investing in your
13:46belief.
13:47And that's really an
13:48issue as an investor,
13:49because even well-intentioned
13:51beliefs and well-intentioned
13:52promises don't always come
13:53true.
13:53Okay.
13:54So I'm going to say that I'm
13:55out, but I wish you the
13:55best.
13:59Ranger Chris, I would
14:01urge you, you have got
14:03something that people want,
14:05you know, and it is, you're
14:07brilliant.
14:08They're brilliant.
14:09So I'd use what you've got.
14:11Use what you've got.
14:12And it's you, it's those
14:12amazing dinosaurs, you know,
14:15and your ability to be, to
14:16be agile and move around and
14:18show these to loads of
14:19different people.
14:21So I wish you all of the
14:22best.
14:23And I know you're going to
14:24find a way to it, but I
14:25won't be investing.
14:26I'm out.
14:27Well, Tuca, you've come
14:36here pitching a business
14:36you've already got.
14:38Yes.
14:38And I helped you a little
14:39bit.
14:40I always say it's like making
14:41a movie without a script in
14:42your head.
14:43Yeah.
14:43That's what I did for you.
14:45How big could it be?
14:46Yeah, yeah.
14:46Right?
14:47But the script wasn't really
14:48there.
14:49And because you've got your
14:50passion and because this is
14:52your business, I don't think
14:53you want an investor.
14:56Honestly.
14:57But I like you.
15:00And I hope you go far.
15:02But today, I'm not going to
15:03join in that journey.
15:05And I'm out.
15:06Thank you, Tuca.
15:09Ranger Chris, before I do my
15:11close, I just want to ask you
15:12a question.
15:13Are you a dad?
15:13Have you got kids?
15:14Yeah.
15:14I bet you're an amazing dad.
15:16I can see you on YouTube
15:18doing longer form content.
15:19I can see you, like, if you
15:20can capture that excitement
15:22and education, because I'm
15:23always looking for channels
15:24where my kids can learn and
15:25watch and have fun at the
15:26same time.
15:27So I would, if I were you,
15:28if I was in your position
15:29with your kind of passion and
15:30all these amazing, you know,
15:32assets you've got, the
15:33dinosaurs, I would try and
15:34focus on longer form YouTube
15:35content because if you worked
15:37hard, before you know it,
15:38you could be earning two,
15:39three, four, five grand a
15:40month.
15:41It's really possible.
15:42Yeah.
15:42You don't need millions of
15:43views to have a really good
15:44channel.
15:45And so I would focus on that,
15:46you know, do what you're
15:47doing and try and bring that
15:48into longer form content, like
15:49little seven or eight
15:50minute episodes.
15:51It could be amazing.
15:51And I'd tune in.
15:53Me and my kids will be
15:54watching it.
15:55So, yeah, I want to wish you
15:56the best of luck.
15:57This is a business I don't
15:58think I can invest in, but
15:59you, I think you're going to
16:00do amazing.
16:01So good luck and I'm out.
16:03Thank you very much.
16:05Thank you very much.
16:05That's it for Ranger Chris,
16:11whose time in the den draws to
16:13a close, leaving his chances of
16:15investment with a dragon as dead
16:17as the dinosaurs.
16:19Of course, I'm a little bit
16:20disappointed, but I think that
16:23they really did love the
16:23dinosaurs.
16:24They loved me as well, which
16:25is what the ultimate aim was.
16:27I thought your point about
16:28Longform YouTube was really on
16:29the money.
16:29Yeah.
16:31We're going to go and do a
16:32show tomorrow, which is going
16:33to be amazing.
16:34And it has inspired me a little
16:36bit to push myself a little bit
16:38harder and maybe prove them
16:40wrong.
16:41Wow.
16:42I love my business and it's
16:44going to continue with or
16:45without the dragons.
16:59Hi, my name's Steve and I'm
17:01from Swindon and this is my
17:02business partner, Sam, and he's
17:03me slightly.
17:03I love my business and it's
17:04me slightly.
17:05Energy.
17:07Our product is trying to shake
17:08up the way things have always
17:09been done in a particular
17:10industry and also it's an
17:12alternative to dairy for those
17:13who are in a plant-based diet.
17:16Oh, interesting.
17:18What's nooch?
17:20Plant-based seasoning.
17:21Cool.
17:22I like the brand.
17:22It's pretty cool.
17:24We're hoping for Joe and
17:26Deborah.
17:27Deborah can bring a lot of
17:28experience in the, especially in
17:30the vegan food and drink space
17:31and Joe is, you know,
17:34nutritionist, sports, all that
17:35sort of thing.
17:36So it's, you know, a great fit
17:37for us.
17:39My heart just went crazy.
17:41Yeah.
17:41Absolutely crazy.
17:42Me too.
17:43You ready to face the dragons?
17:44Yes.
17:44Let's do it.
17:46Okay.
17:47What are you doing?
17:49Hot potatoes.
17:49Hi dragons.
18:02My name is Sam.
18:03And I'm Steve.
18:04And we're the co-founders of
18:05Notorious Nooch.
18:06We're here today asking for
18:08a £100,000 investment in
18:10exchange for 20% equity in
18:12our fast-growing vegan food
18:14brand.
18:15We would love to reinvent it in
18:16the way people get their
18:17essential vitamin B12.
18:18Using our delicious plant-based
18:21nutritional yeast seasonings.
18:23Our range includes three
18:25flavours.
18:26Cheesy, smoky bacon and
18:28grilled chicken.
18:30They're all packed with
18:31protein, B vitamins, vitamin
18:34B12 and they're all plant
18:35based.
18:36Our Nooch is naturally
18:37flavoured and, sorry, Nooch
18:40nutritional yeast, Nooch for
18:42short.
18:42It's naturally flavoured and
18:43designed to be used by the
18:44handful.
18:45So you can throw it on beans,
18:46soups, salads, pasta.
18:48It makes a great cheese pasta
18:49sauce.
18:50We flavour our nutritional yeast
18:52with yeast extract and a
18:54teaspoon will give you 94% of
18:56your daily recommended intake of
18:58vitamin B12 and over 2 grams of
19:01complete protein.
19:02Within just four years, we've
19:04managed to get stocked in over
19:05600 stores nationwide, including
19:07major retailers such as Holland &
19:09Barrett and Whole Foods.
19:10There's hundreds of independent
19:11health food stores via our 10
19:13trade distributors.
19:15The market opportunity for Notorious
19:16Nooch is huge.
19:18From vegans and vegetarians looking
19:19for B12 to flexitarians and
19:21meat eaters looking for more
19:22plant based nutrition in their
19:24diet.
19:24Thank you so much for your time
19:25today.
19:26We're going to give you guys some
19:26samples.
19:28Lovely.
19:29A plant based nutritional yeast
19:32seasoning rich in vitamin B12 and
19:35protein is the offering from Steve
19:38Wildish and Sam Fresco.
19:41Shall I take one of them?
19:42Yes.
19:42Yeah.
19:42Just take one.
19:43It's got the cheesy seasoning on
19:44it.
19:45They're seeking £100,000 in exchange
19:48for 20% of their company.
19:50Now what's on this?
19:51That's still got the cheesy
19:52seasoning on it.
19:53The samples have garnered a healthy
19:55response from guest dragon Joe
19:57Wicks.
19:57I like the taste of it.
19:59It's really nice.
20:01But can the pair persuade the
20:02dragons to nourish their company's
20:05coffers with cash?
20:09Well Sam and Steve thank you for
20:11that lovely presentation.
20:13It's funny because I keep seeing
20:14this stuff pop up on Instagram.
20:16People making cheesy sauces and
20:18like you know pastas with this
20:19what I always think it looks like
20:20fish food that you springing off
20:22the top of the tank.
20:23I don't know what it is.
20:24What is nutritional yeast and
20:25where do you get it?
20:26Yeah so it's yeast essentially.
20:30So there's a factory in Paris
20:32where we source our yeast.
20:35I think it's baker's yeast and
20:37it's grown in a tank of molasses
20:39and then they dry it out and
20:41they then take the yeast flakes
20:43and they toast them to different
20:45temperatures which provides
20:46different flavourings.
20:48Incredible.
20:49So if you want to tell me a little
20:50about your like how long you've been
20:51running for and what your numbers
20:52have been.
20:53We're running for four years
20:54our year in September.
20:56So year one we did 18k
20:57in year two we did 39k
21:00and in year three we did 77k
21:02so strong 90% growth year on year
21:04yeah so 135k as of last September.
21:09That's brilliant and so how big is
21:10the opportunity in the UK?
21:11I mean it feels like a niche kind of
21:13is it a vegan product or can anyone
21:16use this and will you start to see
21:17this being used in you know
21:18all kinds of recipes?
21:20Anyone can use it but vegans
21:22typically use it to have a B12
21:24supplement so it's very popular in
21:25the vegan community and vegans are
21:26our primary consumer.
21:29I love the branding tell me a little
21:30bit about how you got to this so
21:31you've got a design background or
21:33did you get an agency for it?
21:35Yes so we are also the agency too
21:37so we designed it ourselves.
21:40It's amazing it's quite fun yeah it's
21:41a fun packaging pretty cool.
21:43You've got a design agency how big is
21:44the design agency?
21:46It's about 15 people now.
21:47Okay you've been running that
21:48together for a long time?
21:50About five years.
21:50Yeah about five.
21:51Five years so what size is that
21:52business in terms of revenue?
21:54About 1.5.
21:551.5 billion.
21:57Okay it's quite typical of agency
21:59owners to launch a product after
22:02getting sick and tired of working
22:03with other people's brands but
22:04what's your gross margin in that
22:05first year when you did 18k?
22:08First year was minus seven gross
22:10profit loss, second year lost 7k
22:12and third year lost 100 quid.
22:14Minus seven year one minus two and
22:17what's your net?
22:18Net minus 47 year one, minus 83
22:21year two, minus 70 year three.
22:24If I was a client of yours and I
22:26came to you with this and I said
22:28in three years time with all your
22:30skills as a design and marketing
22:31agency how much money are we going
22:33to be making?
22:34You wouldn't say to me we could be
22:35losing 70k and making 70k revenue.
22:37Correct yeah.
22:38So something I don't understand
22:39what's going on because you have
22:40the skill sets you've just revealed
22:41to me that you have marketing skills,
22:42branding skills.
22:43This is a side project.
22:45You're making one point something
22:46million doing something else.
22:47So I don't blame you for not being
22:49focused because I wouldn't be if I was
22:50making one point something million
22:51somewhere else.
22:52Sure.
22:52So are we investing in your hobby?
22:54No, no.
22:55We're very focused on this and
22:56essentially trying to create something
22:58new and trying to bring a new brand
22:59to market.
23:00So we're not making this on our
23:01kitchen table kind of thing.
23:02We've partnered with some of the
23:03biggest players in the space.
23:05The idea is we're basically focusing
23:06on building that distribution network.
23:08Obviously the brand distribution are
23:09kind of key to this being something we
23:11can grow over the next three to five years
23:12and build a business of real value.
23:17Sam, Steve, is this a new category?
23:21Is this out there already, this type of product?
23:23Yeah.
23:23So yeah, the existing main competitor
23:25has been around in the market for about 30 years.
23:27It's in basically every single major supermarket.
23:30Okay, so people know what Nooch is.
23:32That is terrible branding.
23:34It's like Kentucky Fried Chicken gone wrong.
23:41I don't even get your...
23:42I love the name Notorious Nooch.
23:44Mm-hmm.
23:45But that should be...
23:46There should be something about that.
23:48Can you do me a favour?
23:49Mm-hmm.
23:51Will you take this?
23:53Yeah.
23:54What I want you to do is just think about it
23:56for 10 seconds and I want one of you
23:58to give me a 30-second advert.
24:01Oh, that's brutal.
24:08So you're now...
24:10This is now you.
24:14It's an advert for this business.
24:16Give me the 30-second elevator advert
24:18that's going to go out to consumers.
24:24Okay.
24:26This is our flavoured nutritional yeast.
24:28This is the grilled chicken seasoning.
24:30You can sprinkle it on anything.
24:31There's no recipe required
24:32and it's the only nutrients you need in your diet.
24:37Okay, what have we missed here by doing that?
24:42There's two things.
24:43One, I'm a consumer.
24:44I've got no call to action.
24:47The second thing is I haven't received your why.
24:51And I think that's what this lacks.
24:53This lacks a little bit of your why.
24:55I'll take that back.
24:57I'll answer the question in a second.
24:58But what I want you to share with me is
25:00what is your why for this product?
25:02Why do I care and why should I buy it?
25:06You might not buy it, but those on a vegan diet probably would
25:09because they need B12 on the diet.
25:11So isn't now this starting to get your why?
25:15You go out there with why this is important.
25:17Yeah.
25:18You have to have this in your diet because.
25:20Yeah.
25:21This is the best seasoning product in the market because.
25:24And if you buy this, this is what will happen.
25:27I don't know.
25:28But Jim, I'm not getting the why.
25:31Well, that was really important for me because not being vegan,
25:34I don't really understand it, but I understand how to sell.
25:39Have we got any vegans here?
25:42Might have.
25:44So they're absolutely right.
25:45I always have a tub of nutritional yeast.
25:47I actually do quite enjoy it.
25:49But what do we worry about?
25:51We worry about B12 and protein.
25:54And this does both of those things.
25:56I also kind of agree with Joe and Peter.
26:01I think this is good branding and I think it's terrible branding.
26:08And I think it's good branding because that to me looks like a set of goods.
26:12If you had those on the shelf, I would know they belong to the same family.
26:17And I would get to know what that family was.
26:21But they undersell your name and your name tells everybody exactly what it is.
26:27So what's the thinking behind that?
26:28Why have you hidden your name?
26:30So we initially had the name cheesy nooch or nutritional yeast flakes right at the top.
26:36But we found from some kind of market research and feedback
26:40that people were slightly confused with what to do with it.
26:44So we added in the word seasoning.
26:46So it's cheesy seasoning, which kind of opens it up into its actual use.
26:49Okay, so that actually does start to make sense.
26:53Looking at that, I know where.
26:59How do I know that's plant-based?
27:01Your biggest selling point, I know how you know,
27:04because down there is the tiniest...
27:07See that?
27:08Yeah, I would have missed it.
27:10...illegible little badge that says it's plant-based.
27:14I would go straight past that.
27:15I'd think, oh, that smoky bacon seasoning,
27:17that's not going to be plant-based, is it?
27:18So I completely see why you're not growing.
27:22I think that's confusing.
27:24I think it's really, really confusing.
27:25And I'm your customer.
27:27Absolutely your customer.
27:31Is it not the case that you're kind of caught between two positions?
27:34You talk about branding and positioning.
27:36But maybe one position,
27:38the left pole of the positioning is nooch, which is for vegans.
27:41And then the right pole of positioning is healthy seasoning,
27:45and that's for everybody.
27:47And so you're in this weird spot in the middle where, you know,
27:50I tasted it and thought, this is really lovely.
27:52I looked at the back.
27:53I thought, oh, my God, look at that nutritional profile.
27:55The amount of protein in this.
27:56And it tastes that good.
27:58I was like, oh, my God, you should have just come in
27:59and said this is healthy seasoning.
28:01You know, but you said nooch,
28:03so my brain positioned you over it as this vegan nooch product
28:06that I've never heard of before.
28:07But you're given Gen Z any old packaging.
28:10And so I'm a bit confused.
28:12And I think sometimes when your positioning isn't super clear,
28:15and when you do take the risky approach
28:17of trying to create basically a new position,
28:20the education that has to come with it is difficult.
28:24I don't need to be a vegan or a noocher
28:27to want to put this on my food.
28:29But again, I didn't know it was for me.
28:31Because you walked in and it says vegan there.
28:32You said vegan.
28:33Nooch, nooch, nooch.
28:34No idea what that is.
28:35So I would never pick that off a shelf.
28:37So I'm going to say that I'm out.
28:38But I wish you the very best.
28:40Cool. Thank you.
28:44Firstly, this whole category is,
28:46like, food and beverage is really challenging.
28:48It's so competitive.
28:49So I really love that you've tried to take something
28:52that's a pretty boring-looking ingredient on a shelf,
28:55and you've made it cool.
28:56And I think it's quite fun.
28:57It's quite Gen Z, isn't it?
28:58Like, the design, and I suppose, you know,
29:00veganism is on the rise,
29:01but I still do feel like it's quite niche.
29:03So I find this really hard.
29:05This is the hardest.
29:08I'm finding this one quite hard,
29:09because I really love what you've done.
29:11And actually, emotionally, I'd love to invest in you,
29:13because I think you're doing something different.
29:15But I think practically, I'm just thinking,
29:18it does feel so niche.
29:19And the kind of volume you've got to do for it to be successful,
29:22like, you know, hundreds of thousands of units
29:24to really make it a success.
29:26And I'm kind of worried that you're going to just put so much into it.
29:29And I'd hate to see, you know, you put more and more into it
29:32and it not succeed.
29:33And therefore, I know that I would emotionally
29:35just want to keep pumping money into it myself,
29:37because I'm quite sensitive in that sense.
29:39So I think I'd end up giving you a lot more than the 100k you want
29:42to get it where you need it to be.
29:43So I want to wish you the best of luck,
29:45but just let you know that I'm out on this one.
29:48Good luck, guys.
29:48Sam and Steve, do you know what?
29:54I'm not sure it's a reflection of you as people.
29:56You've got an agency background.
29:58I think you've basically created a product in your spare time
30:03throughout your agency and you've taken it to market.
30:06You've done probably one thing that many, many people will never do.
30:11I don't think you probably need to spend a lot more money now
30:14because you're there.
30:16It's a market-ready product.
30:18You've taken great feedback today, clearly, on the branding.
30:21You know what you need to change.
30:22You know the messages that you need to be clearly selling this product.
30:27I think, hopefully, that's the thing that you're going to walk away with today.
30:30And you're an agency that can create your own advert for this business, I'm sure.
30:36So for that reason, I'm out.
30:38But thanks for bringing it to my attention today.
30:42I'll tell you where I am.
30:45Most entrepreneurs that come in the den,
30:47are not in a position that you're in with a fallback.
30:51They come in here, and it's their dream.
30:56They're passionate about it.
30:58And that is it.
31:00You would make or break in a lot of cases.
31:03You know?
31:03And, first of all, I don't see that in you guys.
31:08You have something to fall back on.
31:10You're lucky.
31:11So my advice is very simple.
31:14Don't give up your day job.
31:16Stick to your day job, because you might need that in the future.
31:19But this is not investable.
31:21For that reason, I'm out.
31:24Sam and Steve.
31:28Tuka touched on something there, actually,
31:29which really hit a chord for me.
31:32It's passion.
31:34I always say when I sit in this chair,
31:36I don't invest in the business.
31:38I invest in the entrepreneur.
31:40You haven't instilled in me
31:42that you've got the passion, the drive,
31:44and the excitement for this business or this product.
31:46And I think the product's great.
31:48So actually, the product's won me over.
31:50It's you guys that haven't won me over,
31:52and that's a real shame.
31:55So I'm sorry.
31:56It's not an investment for me today.
31:58I'm out.
32:04I would definitely be a customer for this.
32:08However, I think this is muddled.
32:11I think you've lost your way a little bit on this.
32:13And I think what's happened
32:14is that it's gone onto the shelves.
32:16It hasn't sold through
32:17as well as you've expected it to sell through.
32:19You've tried to find out why that is.
32:21You've kept changing things.
32:22It's kind of ended up in a place
32:24that's lost its reason to be.
32:26So I think you do need to sharpen...
32:28You've got to decide
32:29what you're trying to say on that front.
32:31If it is for vegan, shout that it's vegan.
32:34If it's for nutrition, shout that it's nutrition.
32:37But they are lovely.
32:38I cannot criticise the taste.
32:40They're very nice.
32:40They deliver exactly what a vegan wants delivered.
32:44But I'm afraid I won't be investing.
32:46I'm out.
32:49Thanks, guys.
32:51Good luck.
32:52Good luck.
32:53That's it for Sam and Steve,
32:56whose product failed to whet the dragon's appetite to invest.
33:01But the entrepreneurs leave the den
33:03with plenty of food for thought.
33:06Yeah, I think we've got a bit to think about
33:08around positioning, messaging,
33:10how we communicate it.
33:11And if, yeah, if there's not landing with them,
33:13then clearly some bits need to be tweaked.
33:15Next to face the dragons were Andrew Telfer and Jill Erskine.
33:33The husband and wife team were seeking £40,000
33:36in return for a 10% share in their business,
33:40wild strong.
33:41What do you reckon?
33:44Parkour in the park.
33:46Do you know what parkour is?
33:47No.
33:48It's when they like...
33:50Parkour!
33:51Parkour!
33:52Parkour!
33:55You all right?
33:56LAUGHTER
33:57Outdoor movement and strength classes
34:02intended to improve joint health,
34:05flexibility and endurance
34:06were the actual offering.
34:09And the dragons were keen
34:10to put a typical exercise to the test.
34:14So, Deborah, if you could just stand over here.
34:16I want you to imagine you're a cat burglar.
34:18And these right here, believe it or not, are lasers.
34:20And what I want you to do is I want you to get
34:22from point A to point B.
34:23OK.
34:23OK?
34:24And he is going to help you.
34:25I'll get out of your way if you want to stand there.
34:27I'll go nice and easy to begin with.
34:29OK.
34:31Ah!
34:35Come on, come on, come on.
34:36Speed up, speed up, speed up.
34:37Don't be too kind, don't be too kind.
34:38Yeah, get her low a little bit.
34:41Great.
34:41And she's made it over to their side.
34:42I'll take those.
34:44Deborah Meaden may have been light on her feet.
34:47Watch her, she'll be bugging her out.
34:49But Tuukka Suleiman was more interested
34:50in maths than mobility.
34:52Jill and Andrew, let's get some idea of numbers.
35:00So, the year ending 2023, we had a turnover of £21,700.
35:07Yep.
35:07And a loss of £7,200.
35:10And then, the year ending 2024, we had a turnover of £24,000 and a loss of £6,000.
35:22About £6,000.
35:24This year, we're on track to have a revenue of, I think, £54,000.
35:29Right.
35:29And we'll have a net profit this year of about £4,500.
35:31Right.
35:32How are you living?
35:34We're working on this on the side.
35:36So, you want us to invest in a business where you're not full-time.
35:41Yeah.
35:41You've got very small turnover.
35:44How do I get my money back?
35:46So, if we can scale up our team so that we can offer more courses,
35:51projected revenue would be £262,000.
35:53£262,000, that's right.
35:56The part-time entrepreneur's modest turnover rang alarm bells with Peter Jones.
36:02This is no more than a bit of a side play, sort of get outside, have a bit of fun,
36:06and come and join my club.
36:08That doesn't make this a business at the moment.
36:11If I may, we've identified a gap in the market.
36:14Within that, currently, we are oversubscribed.
36:17But you might have identified a gap in the market,
36:19but at the moment, there's no market in that gap.
36:21So, I disagree.
36:23We've sort of consciously tried not to scale up too quickly
36:27because we really wanted to make sure we were ready before we got investment.
36:32The couple believed their business was in good shape to clinch a deal.
36:37Would fitness guru Joe Wicks agree?
36:40I started my career running a boot camp in Old Deer Park in Richmond,
36:45so I love this concept.
36:47And you can see, look at her hanging from the tree.
36:48She loves it, doesn't she?
36:49But it's not really a business that I can put 40 grand into
36:53because you're going to iron it out real quick
36:55and you're going to say, Joe, I need another 40 grand.
36:57So, I hate saying no, but I don't think I can invest in this one.
37:02So, good luck, but I'm out.
37:06Sadly for Andrew and Jill, none of the dragons felt moved to invest.
37:11But it wasn't just the entrepreneurs who were left feeling the strain.
37:17It's tough being a dragon, Joy, isn't it?
37:19It is tough, yeah, because you want to give everyone a chance, don't you?
37:21This is it.
37:32Hi, my name's Amelia.
37:33And I'm Lydia, and we're sisters and co-founders from London.
37:37How are you feeling?
37:38A bit nervous.
37:39We got this.
37:40This year has been such a whirlwind.
37:43We left our jobs and we essentially launched a business,
37:46which is kind of daunting.
37:48Here we go.
37:49Here we go.
37:52We're first-time founders,
37:54and although it's been a massive learning curve,
37:56with the help of one of the dragons,
37:58we know that we can make it really far, really quickly.
38:02This business is so close to our hearts,
38:04and we're so, so passionate about this area.
38:07You can't shut us up.
38:15Hello, dragons.
38:17My name is Lydia, and I'm Amelia.
38:19And we are the founders of Ivy.
38:21And we're here today to ask for £75,000
38:24in return for a 3% equity stake in our company.
38:29So to start with, I'm going to tell you about Carol,
38:33who for 12 years worked her way up the career ladder
38:37to a senior leadership position
38:39before she decided to take a career break
38:42to have three daughters.
38:43When she felt eager to return to work,
38:47she hit a wall.
38:48The application process was a minefield.
38:52As a result, she ended up taking a massive salary cut
38:56for a role far below her qualifications,
38:59and her potential was wasted.
39:02Two of Carol's daughters are standing here before you.
39:05Witnessing our mum's struggle firsthand
39:08inspired us to build Ivy,
39:10a community-driven marketplace
39:11that connects women returning to work
39:14with companies eager to access this untapped talent.
39:17Because this isn't just our mum's story.
39:19It's the story of millions and millions of women.
39:23In the UK alone,
39:24seven out of every ten women
39:26will struggle to return to work.
39:29The majority taking lower-paying roles
39:31into fields that stunt their career trajectory.
39:35First and foremost,
39:36Ivy is a community
39:37where women can openly discuss
39:39their return-to-work challenges.
39:41Through Ivy,
39:42you can build confidence
39:43through accessing career guides,
39:46templates, and resources
39:48to put you in a position
39:49where you feel confident
39:50to not only apply for,
39:52but to land roles.
39:54So, just like Carol,
39:56you can create a profile
39:57on the Ivy platform
39:58and start browsing for roles
40:00based on the flexibility
40:01that you need.
40:03Every company has a returner rating
40:05which spotlights
40:07the key important policies
40:08that are often quite difficult to find.
40:11We use behavioural nudge theory
40:12to actually encourage you to apply
40:15where you otherwise
40:16might not have had the confidence to do so.
40:18For example, highlighting
40:19if you're a top match.
40:20And if you still have questions,
40:21we have our AI career guide,
40:23which is here to help,
40:24providing specific content
40:26that is tailored
40:27to your career break length,
40:29your industry,
40:30and your skill set.
40:31At Ivy,
40:32we envision a world
40:33where a career break
40:34is just a break,
40:36not a reset.
40:37Now, it's too late for our mum,
40:38but we are here to fix it
40:40for the next generation
40:41and make returning to work
40:42work.
40:47An online platform
40:49to help people back into the workplace
40:50after a pause in their career
40:52is the brainchild of sisters
40:54Amelia and Lydia Miller.
40:57They're seeking £75,000
40:59in return for a 3% share
41:02of their business.
41:04First to find out more
41:05is Stephen Bartlett.
41:10Lydia in the media,
41:12that was such a fantastic pitch.
41:14Thanks.
41:15I really want to understand
41:17the business
41:18and what the actual product is here
41:19because I work with LinkedIn Recruiter.
41:21I've spent some of my life
41:22building social networks,
41:23so I understand
41:23the complexities of network effects
41:25and user acquisition
41:26and all the troubles
41:26that you'll be facing.
41:28So is this a recruitment platform
41:30for women at that stage
41:32of their life
41:33where they're returning to work?
41:34Is that really what it is?
41:35Yeah, so women
41:36that are returning to work,
41:37so this is not
41:38from maternity leave,
41:39but they're out of the workforce,
41:41they do not have a job,
41:42and they're looking
41:42to return back into work.
41:44This usually happens
41:45when their first child
41:46goes to nursery,
41:47when they have that time again.
41:48At this point,
41:49they're in the job market
41:50and there are key problems
41:52that keep coming up every time.
41:53The biggest one
41:55is confidence.
41:56And so that's why
41:57we're not just a jobs board.
41:58We offer community,
41:59we offer upskilling,
42:00we help them understand
42:01what they've missed on,
42:03let's say they've been out
42:03for three years.
42:04Yeah.
42:05What's AI?
42:06If you've been out
42:07for three years,
42:07you wouldn't know that.
42:08You know, it's so interesting.
42:09So the product itself though,
42:11so...
42:11Yeah, so as the journey
42:13as a returner
42:13is you sign up,
42:14you can access the community.
42:16You can then use
42:17our jobs platform
42:18to browse the roles
42:19that are live.
42:20The only roles
42:21that go on there
42:22are from pre-vetted companies
42:23that will be paying
42:24us a subscription
42:25to post their roles
42:26and to hire
42:27from this talent pool.
42:29Okay.
42:32Amelia, Lydia, hi.
42:33Oh.
42:34Hello.
42:36Music to my ears.
42:37Honestly,
42:37I talk to so many
42:39brilliant women
42:40who somehow
42:41when they're returning
42:42to work
42:43have lost all the confidence
42:44they've built up
42:45through their career
42:45and somehow believe
42:47that they have lost
42:48their value.
42:50You know,
42:50so honestly,
42:51absolutely music to my ears.
42:52The question is,
42:53is this going to help them?
42:54Now, this is currently
42:55in use, you say?
42:57Yes.
42:58Okay, so we're out
42:58of testing phase?
43:00We're still in the testing phase,
43:02I'd say.
43:02We launched,
43:03we started trading
43:03one month ago.
43:04Oh, okay.
43:05And so who's on there?
43:07Who's using it at the moment?
43:09So in terms of the paying
43:10company clients that we have,
43:11we've gone for
43:12four very different clients.
43:13The reason being,
43:14we want to test it
43:15on different sized companies
43:17and in different industries.
43:19On the returner side,
43:21our marketing channel
43:22has been directed
43:23at women
43:24who are returning
43:24to marketing,
43:26finance,
43:27sales,
43:28customer service
43:29and consultancy.
43:33Girls,
43:34you've absolutely
43:35smashed this pitch.
43:36I love your energy.
43:37I can tell your sisters,
43:38you just bounce
43:38on each other
43:39and I can just
43:39see how much this means to you.
43:41What a great idea.
43:42So I want to ask the question,
43:42what do you do for a living?
43:44Have you both got jobs?
43:46Yeah, so we actually
43:47left our jobs
43:47four months ago,
43:48which has been quite scary.
43:50I love that.
43:50I love quitters,
43:51you know,
43:51because quitting's hard, right?
43:52Yeah, I completely agree.
43:54Yeah, yeah.
43:54Look at you.
43:55So go on,
43:55you've got your job.
43:56So what were you doing
43:56for work before?
43:58So I am a published psychologist
43:59by trade
44:00through the University of Cambridge.
44:02After I left Cambridge,
44:03I did a massive 180
44:04and went into banking.
44:06I then did another 180
44:07and joined a health startup
44:08doing a little bit of everything
44:09as a team member
44:10and that hopefully
44:12has put me in a really good position
44:13to then jump
44:14and become a founder.
44:16And what about yourself?
44:17Yeah, so I was with
44:18Deloitte Ventures
44:19Corporate Venture Capital Fund
44:20where we invested in
44:21a load of startups
44:22which was really fun.
44:23Absolutely loved it.
44:24You're a mini dragon, aren't you?
44:25Yeah, one day.
44:26One day.
44:27Do you know what?
44:27I can't beat him.
44:28Can you give him,
44:28stump him?
44:29I'm going to try it.
44:29Please do.
44:30No.
44:31Hold my drink.
44:32Nice.
44:32Hold my beer.
44:34So it's so wonderful
44:35because you're so wonderful
44:36and it's so easy
44:37to be positive and optimistic
44:38when we're talking
44:39about plans and dreams.
44:40But the reality
44:41of scaling a social network
44:42is like chewing glass.
44:45It really is
44:46because everybody wants
44:48to acquire customers,
44:49the same customers you want
44:50for their social network,
44:52their recruitment site,
44:52whatever,
44:53because I know LinkedIn recruitment.
44:54They've been pretty deep
44:56conversations with me
44:57about supporting them
44:57on a number of things.
44:58And I've also spent a long time
45:00scaling social networks
45:01and I've chewed the glass
45:02and I've gone through the pain.
45:04What are you going to do
45:05to beat out all of these
45:06other recruitment sites,
45:07communities,
45:08social networks
45:08that are trying to steal
45:09that customer?
45:11Yeah, it's a really good question.
45:12And to answer that,
45:12I'd say, you know,
45:13you found it so difficult.
45:14You did it, you know,
45:15and you did it well.
45:16I had to chew glass for 12 years
45:17since I'm 18 in San Francisco.
45:19Yeah, we can chew glass.
45:19Yeah, but...
45:20I didn't burn cash.
45:22My software company
45:23in San Francisco
45:23has raised $31 million now
45:25and it's probably, you know,
45:27burned $15 million of that
45:28just on the customer acquisition point.
45:30Yeah, yeah, 100%.
45:32Totally agree with everything
45:33you've raised to that point.
45:35Providing genuine value
45:36through not only our community,
45:38but the jobs
45:39and the calibre of companies
45:40we have on the platform
45:41will lead to organic,
45:43waterfall,
45:43word-of-mouth referrals.
45:45Word-of-mouth referrals
45:46is zero cost.
45:47We're not funneling loads of spend
45:50into performance marketing,
45:51which a lot of startups
45:52at an early stage
45:53fall into the trap of doing.
45:54We know that.
45:55We don't want to do that.
45:56And my last question is,
45:57are we part of a broader capital raise
45:58or is this...
45:59We closed off the round in March.
46:01What was the valuation?
46:02That was $2 million.
46:03$2 million.
46:03And you're going to need to raise
46:04a lot more capital.
46:05Yeah, we're going out to raise
46:06again next year.
46:07How much?
46:08Between $1.5 and $2 million.
46:12Hmm.
46:14I think you might need
46:14to raise a little bit more.
46:18And that's quite important
46:19to know now
46:20when you're asking
46:20for what you're asking for
46:21for just 3%.
46:22Because whatever's going to happen,
46:25we've got to clearly
46:26either double down
46:27and follow on
46:28at much higher valuations
46:29or be diluted
46:30to a very small amount.
46:33Yeah.
46:34Lydia and Amelia,
46:38you two are brilliant.
46:41But I'm sitting on the fence
46:43and saying,
46:44what is the potential of this?
46:47Give me the figures
46:47for the next two years
46:49of what you believe
46:51you're genuinely going to generate
46:53or are you here
46:55just a bit early?
46:56So we'll be operating
46:58at a loss this year.
46:59So it will be
46:59so it will be
47:00a £82,000,000 loss
47:03this year.
47:0482.
47:05So year two?
47:06Still a loss.
47:07Our aim is to hit profitability
47:08in between four
47:10and five years' time.
47:12How long?
47:13Four and five years' time.
47:14Ha!
47:15So in three years' time,
47:17we'll be at
47:18a £12,000,000
47:19annual recurring revenue.
47:22And in five years' time,
47:23where we scaled globally,
47:24we'll be at
47:25a £367,000,000
47:27annual net revenue business.
47:32Well, I'm going to tell you
47:32where I am.
47:35I do believe in you.
47:39Unfortunately,
47:40I don't believe in your journey.
47:42It's too long.
47:43I think you'll get there
47:44eventually with determination,
47:46but you're going to need
47:47a lot of money.
47:49And I can't see myself
47:50putting more money in
47:51and more money in
47:52because I think the return
47:53at the end
47:54will be very minute.
47:55So I'm going to say to you,
47:57I'm not going to join you
47:58on this journey.
47:59I'm out.
47:59Thank you very much.
48:00Thanks.
48:04Lydia, Amelia,
48:05I'll tell you where I am.
48:06I think that the issue
48:08is scale over valuation.
48:11And investing at
48:12even 5%
48:14at a 1.5 million valuation
48:15with what you need.
48:16I believe that you're going
48:18to need
48:19the best part
48:20of 5 to 10 million
48:21to get this
48:22to a decent place,
48:24which means
48:25a lot more money
48:26going in
48:27after me investing
48:29if I was to make you
48:30an offer today.
48:31So I'm sorry.
48:33I'm going to say
48:33that I'm out.
48:37Lydia and Amelia,
48:39valuation is hard.
48:40It's really hard.
48:41And this is the thing
48:42that's holding me back
48:43because I like to be
48:44really excited.
48:46You know,
48:46and I like it.
48:47I like a business
48:48to be the thing
48:48I'm thinking about
48:49in the shower,
48:50on the dog walk,
48:51you know,
48:51because I think that
48:52that's how you show up
48:54best as an investor.
48:55You really start
48:55to get obsessed with it.
48:56Bartlett,
48:58come on,
48:58give him a chance.
48:59Don't talk yourself
48:59out of it.
49:00Stick with that
49:01train of thought.
49:01Give him a chance too.
49:02You're the king of community.
49:03I'm going to follow you.
49:04You're going to follow me.
49:05I just think,
49:05I think you'd be
49:07a great dragon for this.
49:08I really do.
49:08I think you'd be
49:09a great dragon for this.
49:09Thanks for backing us up.
49:10You're the king of community.
49:11Sorry, I wasn't trying to interrupt.
49:13I was just saying
49:13I think they're great
49:14and I think
49:14you're going to try
49:15and talk yourself out of it,
49:16I think.
49:18I'm fighting for you.
49:19I'm rooting for you.
49:23Where's my bloody notes?
49:25It's the valuation.
49:28It's annoying me.
49:29Yeah, what's holding back?
49:30Purely valuation.
49:38Girls, look,
49:39I'm going to get
49:39the ball rolling, okay?
49:40I'm a gambling man
49:41and I want to take
49:41a punt on you.
49:43And look,
49:43I know you might not
49:44want my money
49:44because I'm just
49:45a fitness guy,
49:46but I know about
49:47digital acquisition
49:47and I've got a great team
49:48who could definitely help.
49:49So you've asked for
49:50£75,000 for 3%.
49:52I'd like to offer you
49:54the cash,
49:54£75,000
49:55for 5% of the business
49:57and yeah,
49:58I'll leave you with that
49:59and obviously let's see
50:00what the dragons say
50:00but hopefully
50:01they might jump on now
50:03and see how much
50:04of a great investment
50:04this could be.
50:05Thank you so much for your offer.
50:09Lydia and Amelia,
50:11I'm sure you are not
50:12remotely surprised to hear
50:13that I absolutely love this
50:15and this is something
50:15very close to my heart.
50:17And the work that I do
50:18in this area,
50:19I don't know if you know
50:20but I'm an ambassador
50:21of SmartWorks,
50:23our purpose is to get
50:24women back into work
50:25and also I do a lot
50:26of speaking
50:27and consulting
50:28with bigger businesses
50:29who are working hard
50:32on solving this problem
50:33in their company.
50:34Now,
50:35I don't have experience
50:37in building social networks.
50:39A lot of what you said today
50:40felt like Swahili to me.
50:42It really did.
50:43However,
50:44I can tell you now
50:45there is no better person
50:46sitting in this den
50:47who knows this problem
50:48first hand
50:49who is really an advocate
50:50and a voice out there
50:51for this.
50:52So,
50:53I am prepared
50:54to make you an offer
50:55however,
50:57I won't offer you
50:57all of the money.
50:59I am prepared
51:00to offer you
51:01£25,000
51:02but for my
51:04£25,000
51:05I would want
51:062% of the business
51:07which means
51:08you'll still need
51:09to get the remaining
51:09£50,000
51:10from one or more dragons.
51:13Thank you very much
51:13for your offer.
51:14Interesting.
51:15Very interesting.
51:18So, Lydia, Amelia,
51:19I disagree with Sarah.
51:21I think I equally have
51:24and have long-term
51:25had a voice.
51:27I mean,
51:27whenever I talk
51:28to any organisation,
51:30particularly the women,
51:32you know,
51:32I talk all the time
51:34about how difficult
51:35it is for them
51:36to get back into the war,
51:37has been,
51:38how difficult it is
51:38once they get there.
51:40So,
51:41I know I've got
51:42a big audience
51:43in this
51:43and I would love
51:45to be part of this.
51:46So,
51:47I'm going to make you
51:48an offer
51:48and I'm going to
51:49offer you
51:49all of the money
51:50and I too
51:52want 5%
51:53of the business.
51:55Thank you very much
51:55for the offer.
52:00It's just me,
52:00isn't it?
52:01Bloody hell.
52:02I wasn't done thinking.
52:05Yeah,
52:06I think it's great.
52:06I think you're great.
52:10Okay,
52:10I really like
52:11what you're doing
52:11and I like it
52:12for so many reasons.
52:14In terms of
52:15where I find myself
52:16in my career,
52:17where I'm
52:17a part owner
52:18in a recruitment business
52:19and my background
52:21in technology.
52:22I first started working
52:23in San Francisco
52:24when I was 18.
52:25I've chewed all the glass
52:26and I've chewed the glass
52:27so that you guys
52:28don't have to.
52:30So,
52:30when I look at a business
52:31like this,
52:31the thing that I can add
52:32is I know the set
52:33of key problems
52:34that you're going to face.
52:35so I think I'm
52:37the perfect investor
52:37for you.
52:40So,
52:40I am going to make you
52:41an offer.
52:42I'm going to make you
52:43an offer
52:43for the money
52:45you've asked for
52:46for 7.5%.
52:48Well,
52:51thank you very much.
52:52Four dragons.
52:53Do we go to the wall?
52:54We're going to have a chat.
52:55We'll go to the wall.
52:55Good luck.
52:56Take your time.
52:57No rush.
52:59Lydia and Amelia
53:00have received
53:01four rival bids.
53:03Sarah Davies
53:09has offered
53:09a third of the money
53:10for 2%,
53:12but that relies
53:13on teaming up
53:14with other dragons.
53:15So we're happy
53:16to give away
53:166% of the company.
53:18That's the limit
53:18I said we go to.
53:20Offering the full
53:21£75,000,
53:23Joe Wicks
53:23and Deborah Meaden
53:24both want
53:25a 5% stake
53:27for themselves.
53:28Big negotiation
53:29we can take
53:30and we have you both
53:31half the money each
53:32for 6%.
53:33It's risky
53:34that's halfing our valuation.
53:36That's halfing our valuation.
53:37Yeah.
53:38While Stephen Bartlett
53:40wants a higher share
53:41of 7.5%
53:43citing his experience
53:44in recruitment
53:45and tech
53:46as his key selling points.
53:487.5% is really steep.
53:507.5% is really steep.
53:52OK.
53:52Let's do it.
53:53We're back.
54:00That took a while.
54:02That's all right.
54:04First of all,
54:05thank you
54:05for your offers.
54:07We will say
54:08that we did come
54:09in here
54:10with two dragons
54:11in mind
54:11and those dragons
54:13are Deborah
54:14and Stephen.
54:16And so
54:17what we'd like
54:18to propose
54:19is potentially
54:20a joint investment
54:22from you both.
54:23We were thinking
54:24the way it would work
54:25would be
54:25half of the money
54:27for each
54:27or 6%.
54:30And Stephen,
54:31I know this is
54:32slightly less
54:33than you originally asked.
54:34We think this would be
54:34an amazing partnership.
54:35I'm happy.
54:47What were you expecting, though?
54:48I mean,
54:49that's kind of
54:49the only thing
54:50they could do.
54:53How do I get to
54:55the levels
54:56that I want to get to?
54:56Because that would leave me
54:57effectively with 3%.
54:59So typically,
55:00the minimum I would do
55:01would be about 5%
55:02for a company
55:03at this level.
55:04I really think
55:05I can change this business
55:06but I also think
55:07I could offer you
55:08a floor in my office
55:09which is an isolated
55:10penthouse floor
55:11in my central HQ
55:12in London
55:13surrounded by
55:14exceptional people
55:15who have done
55:15what you're trying to do.
55:17And I'll include that
55:17in the deal.
55:18So I'm going to stick
55:19to my original offer.
55:20I like my original offer.
55:22So my offer is
55:23$75,000
55:24for 7.5%
55:25of the business.
55:28You know,
55:29really would love
55:30the expertise
55:31of Deborah
55:32as well as part
55:33of this deal.
55:33And I think
55:33that's what's
55:34for me
55:35Yeah,
55:36I was going to say
55:37hesitating.
55:38Stephen,
55:38is there a way
55:39we could
55:39encompass
55:40everything you've
55:41just said?
55:42Yeah.
55:42Essentially scale it
55:43all back
55:43from that 7.5%
55:46to a 5%
55:47investment today.
55:49So
55:49essentially taking
55:51the $75,000 down.
55:53I would do that
55:54at $50,000
55:54investment today.
55:55At $50,000
55:56investment today.
55:57But then with the
55:57I'll give you
55:58the floor in the office.
56:00And could we have
56:01that floor for two years?
56:03I'd like you
56:06to be in there.
56:09Okay,
56:09here's what I'll do.
56:10I'll do
56:11the $50,000
56:12for 5%
56:13and I'll give you
56:15four desks
56:16for 12 months.
56:19Okay,
56:19so I'm offering you
56:20$37,500
56:21for the 3%.
56:23Yes.
56:24Okay,
56:24and then the additional
56:25bit is the office space,
56:27so Steve,
56:27I'm very happy
56:28with that.
56:29Perfect.
56:30Perfect.
56:30We've got a deal?
56:31We've got a deal.
56:32Excellent.
56:33Well done.
56:34Thank you so much.
56:35Thank you so much.
56:36Success for the sisters.
56:38Yeah, well done.
56:39As they win
56:40the backing
56:40of two dragons.
56:42Well done, guys.
56:43Thank you so much
56:45for listening to us.
56:45Congratulations.
56:46Congratulations.
56:47Bye.
56:47With their expertise
56:50and profile
56:51behind this business,
56:52the sky's the limit.
56:53My brain.
56:59And this pair
57:00are already
57:01scaling new heights.
57:03Did we just get
57:03the penthouse
57:04in Stephen Bartlett's
57:05London office?
57:06Yeah,
57:07I'm kind of in shock
57:08at that.
57:09Well,
57:09Stephen and Deborah,
57:10well done.
57:11Founders like that,
57:13you just
57:14have to
57:15invest in.
57:16Grab them.
57:17Grab them.
57:17You have to invest in.
57:18Stephen,
57:18they're a force.
57:19They're a force.
57:21I'm happy with that.
57:21I'm happy with that.
57:22We've got our two
57:23favourite dragons.
57:23We've got our two
57:24favourite dragons.
57:24What are we going
57:26to do to celebrate?
57:27I don't know.
57:28Just try and digest
57:29everything and then
57:30call our mum,
57:32tell her the good news
57:33as well.
57:33That was probably
57:33the first thing we could do.
57:34Yeah,
57:34we need to do that now.
57:36So happy.
57:37Yeah,
57:37on cloud nine.
57:38That was amazing.
57:49Next time,
57:50the return
57:51of a special guest.
57:53Look who's back,
57:54missus.
57:55Nice to see you again.
57:57What did you think?
57:58Be honest.
57:59It gets worse
57:59before it gets better.
58:00I've heard that before.
58:01Isn't that the biggest
58:02investment ever
58:03on Dragon's Den?
58:05Woo!
58:09They are singing
58:10and dancing.
58:11It is the girl group
58:12challenge
58:13and boy,
58:13do they have a pop queen
58:14to assist
58:15on BBC3 now.
58:17Here next,
58:18it's the first
58:18dirty deed
58:19about to be done.
58:20Stick around
58:21if you dare
58:22for the celebrity
58:23traitors.
58:23news.
58:23We'll see you next time.
58:25We'll see you next time.
58:25We'll see you next time.
58:26We'll see you next time.
58:26We'll see you next time.
58:26We'll see you next time.
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