00:00I'm here at downtown New York City's criminal courthouse where Harvey Weinstein learned yesterday that he'll face his third trial in New York.
00:09His attorney said yesterday that he would not be taking a plea deal. Weinstein does not want the word rape associated with his name.
00:18I'm here with journalist Marie Pohl, who's been covering the case of Weinstein and Diddy, which is actually behind us, the federal courthouse.
00:26Thanks so much for coming.
00:27No problem.
00:28Do you think Weinstein will serve the rest of his life in prison?
00:33I don't know. I have no idea. But I think that going to court is definitely a good distraction. It's better to be in court than at Rikers.
00:42A lot of people still think that he's serving time in prison upstate. A lot of people don't realize that his team won their appeal in New York.
00:49So now he is back at Rikers Island and he is being transported back and forth.
00:52He was staying at Bellevue Hospital during the trial. But yes, his team, I have to say that appeal was sort of a historic victory for the defense because they set precedent.
01:08So the reason why his case was overturned was because the judges agreed that it's damaging to bring women to have women testify that don't actually have anything to do with the charges directly.
01:23Whose stories are not part of the charges and they're, you know, they're considered character witnesses.
01:30And some people would say that with a descendant like Weinstein, where you have a lot of women that are saying the same thing, that are alleging sexual assault, that it's important to show that there was a pattern.
01:43But the argument here was this portrays him as a man who's maybe a sex addict, you know, and so that that wasn't fair and the judges agreed and that sets precedent for other cases.
02:02And I think in the Diddy case, even though it's a federal case, I do think, I don't know if they were directly inspired by this, but the judge was much more careful what he allowed into the testimony and into evidence at, you know, at Diddy's trial because of that, I think.
02:26Let's talk about the defense attorneys and what happened yesterday at the hearing where you and I were both in the room.
02:30So can you talk a little bit about what this retrial is going to be with the actress, Jessica Mann?
02:38The interesting thing about Jessica Mann, about her case, her charge, is the fact that they were in a five-year-long relationship.
02:46So I think it's difficult for the jury to dissect the question of, OK, there was consensual sex and there was non-consensual sex, according to the victim and according to the charge.
03:00So that, I think, makes it more difficult.
03:04Also, in Diddy's case with Cassandra Ventura, it was consensual sex and, according to her, also non-consensual sex.
03:12And that, for a stranger to understand that and to wrap his or her head around this question of, yeah, well, for five years you were sleeping with him, but you're saying in these two incidences or one that is being charged specifically, it was rape, but then the next day it wasn't.
03:32I think that's a difficult concept for somebody, you know, from the outside to understand, to judge.
03:40And yet, the argument that the prosecution makes in both cases is that if you say no one time, that counts.
03:51Like, if you say, I don't want to sleep with you right now and I'm not giving you my consent and the man forces himself on you, that is considered assault or rape or, you know, whatever you want to call that.
04:06That, for a jury, I think, becomes difficult to understand and to emphasize.
04:13And so, we saw in both trials that the jury took a long time to deliberate, that there were heated discussions in the deliberation rooms, and that the jurors had a hard time coming to a unanimous verdict.
04:31I remember they were pushing for a January trial and then Weinstein's lawyer said that was just unacceptable, that he's been waiting at Rikers, which is just not an ideal situation for anybody.
04:40Looks like the trial will likely be happening this year, right?
04:44I think also the defense could be worried about the fact that the more time the prosecution has to prepare the trial, they could find more victims.
04:55Like, in this second trial, they added another victim that was not part of the first trial, which was Kajos Kola, the Polish, former Polish model.
05:03And so, I think this is, you know, speculation, they didn't say anything to that, but I do think that the defense could also be worried about the fact that if the prosecution has a lot of time, you know, they can dig up a lot more dirt, to put it.
05:23Let's talk about you covering both Diddy and Weinstein.
05:27So, the federal courthouse is right behind us there.
05:30The criminal courthouse for New York State is here.
05:33Was there a point when you were just racing back and forth, or what was that like, just being on the ground?
05:38Yes, I did.
05:38I would go to Diddy in the morning, because they started very early.
05:43They would start at, like, 9 o'clock in the morning.
05:45And then, when they would take a break, I would rush over here.
05:52And sometimes, I would go back and forth several times a day, yes.
05:56Which was interesting.
05:59I wasn't the only reporter to do that, I have to say.
06:02There are other reporters that did that.
06:04I think, I'm not going to name names now, but there are a few other ones that were racing back and forth like me.
06:10So, yeah, it was an interesting experience.
06:13It, you know, it wasn't always easy, because it's not easy to listen to that testimony.
06:23Because it's just, it's very sad.
06:26And even if these two men are not guilty, you know, with Diddy, we know for a fact that there was a lot of violence against his ex-girlfriends.
06:37And I think, regardless of what someone does, I don't think violence is appropriate.
06:42And it's hard to watch.
06:45What do you think about the current zeitgeist now?
06:48We're in the wake of Me Too, you know, Harvey Weinstein's case, when those two exposés first dropped in The New Yorker and The New York Times back in 2017.
06:56That really was the first watershed moment for the Me Too movement.
07:01When his case, when he was found guilty in 2020, that was huge.
07:06So now, looking at what's happening with Diddy, we see that there's lines and there's people and there's press coverage.
07:12But then Weinstein, there was just very little coverage at all of the appeals.
07:16Can you comment on where you think we're at in terms of a society reckoning with the Me Too movement?
07:23I think there has, I think society is finding its balance.
07:27I think that's where we are right now.
07:29And you see that with the juries and the disagreement and the arguments among the jurors in both trials, in both cases.
07:36You had jurors come out of the jury room, you know, complaining about the fact that they couldn't agree, that they felt threatened by other jurors.
07:46So I think right now we're at a point where society has to kind of, it was in leading this way and now it's got to kind of find a balance again.
07:58And we, like, to say that men are great or men are bad, but to understand that there are certain individuals that are probably also, you know, have mental illnesses.
08:07I do think that both Diddy and Weinstein are suffering some psychological illnesses.
08:18I really think it's, yeah, I think it's not talked about enough how both of these men are maybe not doing so well.
08:27Do you think that there's any public interest in following up on what's happened with the survivors of some of these cases, covering stories and working with the women who've gone through?
08:40Because the legal system itself can be really difficult, too.
08:44Yeah, I do. I think it's very interesting.
08:46I mean, I think Jessica Mann actually is a very interesting story and an interesting woman.
08:52And also because of the acting aspect, because she wanted to be an actress, Weinstein sort of insinuated in his defense that he thought she was not a good actress and that he thought she did not deserve to be famous,
09:10even though he made her the promises that he would take her to fame or help her get castings.
09:22I don't know. I think Jessica Mann, seeing her on the stand, I think she's a really unusual woman.
09:29And I think she's an individual that is just different.
09:32And she had a panic attack in the first trial.
09:36And even during this trial, you know, she walked out.
09:39She's like got up off the witness stand and like kind of pointed at him in a sort of threatening or provocative way.
09:50I find her interesting.
09:52I also would doubt that she is not a good actress.
09:55I think maybe she would have been a great actress.
09:57And maybe Weinstein just doesn't have a good face.
09:59I don't know.
10:00Yes, I do think you should follow up.
10:02I do think these women are characters and they deserve some sort of attention if they seek it.
10:09Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Marie.
10:11We really appreciate you taking the time.
10:13You're welcome.
10:15And thank you so much for having me.
10:16And I look forward to seeing you again and to hearing what you've been up to.
10:22I'll see you in court.
10:23Yes, exactly.
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