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00:00Hi Jennifer, this is Mel from duanjou.fr and I'm really glad to have you as our guest for this new interview.
00:11So first of all, can you please introduce yourself because I know you are an artist with a great background.
00:20You're coming from dance, but right now you're doing verticals.
00:24So I would be glad to know more about, you know, everything that you can tell from what you've been doing so far and what are your plans.
00:35Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:36I really appreciate the time to be able to talk about the vertical landscape and kind of how I got into it and where it's progressing.
00:47I started as an actor and a dance choreographer and was predominantly a dance choreographer here in France and in Germany.
00:57And I did that very much in the avant-garde space here for 10 years.
01:04And when I went back to Los Angeles, which is where I got my acting credentials,
01:12I went back into acting and kind of realized that I loved acting, but I didn't love the performing of it.
01:21That my experience as a dance choreographer kind of showed me that I really loved being on the other side of the camera or the other side of the performance.
01:32And so from that point, I kept acting for a few years, but while I was doing that, I started to direct and write my own short films in Los Angeles and eventually got a director shadow position,
01:47which I don't know if you have those in Europe.
01:49It's where you're invited by a director to sit next to them while they go through the whole process of directing either a TV show or a film.
02:00And your job basically is to simply watch and learn.
02:03And that's it.
02:04Like you're, it's very, very privileged opportunity.
02:08It's very different than going on set and being a production assistant because you're busy working.
02:13So it's good, but it's also hard to like really just sit and observe and really see how the director works from the very beginning of pre-production all the way through post.
02:24So I was given that opportunity through Michael Nankin, who's a director and also Blumhouse, which produced the movie, The Purge.
02:35They gave me an opportunity to be a director shadow on their television version of The Purge.
02:40So that was a really incredible learning experience for me and really solidified, like that directing was the right place for me in the landscape of all of the jobs that are possible in film production.
02:56You know, that, that really, that really helped, helped me really see for sure that this was the right place for me.
03:03So then I started directing features.
03:09Um, and then of course, now with this explosion of the vertical scene, um, that's sort of how I got into verticals.
03:18Um, you know, the industry in Los Angeles wasn't doing so well.
03:21And then verticals kind of came into the picture and, um, through several friends of mine, I got opportunities to direct.
03:28And also my choreography background came in handy because I also was given opportunities to choreograph a lot of the more complicated sex scenes that are in verticals.
03:39So in a funny way, um, yes, I'm directing, but also that job of being a choreographer has sort of come back around, um, for me.
03:48And so in the world of verticals and in the world of features and TV, I'm able to now utilize both those skills in that space.
03:56Um, and I think that that's very interesting.
03:58Also this, uh, uh, career and background as a dancer, uh, you're coming from Chicago, right?
04:05You are a Chicago dancer.
04:06Originally.
04:06Yeah.
04:07I'm originally from Chicago.
04:08Yeah.
04:09And, and then I think it's very interesting because, um, verticals, um, first and originally are, uh, let's say mostly about romance.
04:18Mm-hmm.
04:19And then I think it's very interesting also, and I would be pleased to know more about these, you know,
04:26scenes that you helped design.
04:28How does it work?
04:29Uh, you know, because I know that, uh, it's all about also, you know, attract, uh, people attract, uh, female audience.
04:37So how do you, uh, work and how did you work on these, you know, choreographies, even if it's not dance, but more about, you know, the scenes.
04:47And, uh, how do you work to make these attractives very different from a movie?
04:52Um, how did it work?
04:54Um, I think it's really all about communication is the most important thing.
05:00Like, you know, talking to your actors, really encouraging them to be completely honest about what they're comfortable with.
05:09Um, I think that's really important so that you don't have surprises when you're on set to just like really make that clear in the beginning.
05:16and, and then talking with, if I'm not the director, if I'm not directing, you know, having that conversation with the director and with the cameraman.
05:26And again, what are their expectations and making sure that everybody's expectations are in alignment.
05:32Like, that's, if you do nothing else, that's the most important thing.
05:37Um, where are the limits that the actors and actresses are ready to go to?
05:42Yeah.
05:42Yeah.
05:43And also for the production.
05:45I mean, in verticals, you know, we're not really showing full nudity because it's, it's streamed on your iPhone.
05:52Um, I'm sure that we will push into a place where we can do a lot more of that.
05:58Um, but I think that there are some restrictions with, with the fact that it's only streamed on your iPhone and, and whether or not you're able to view certain content, um, knowing that there are, there may be children around.
06:12I know that there's, every country has their laws around that.
06:15So, um, I can speak very clearly to the American, um, legal, uh, process on that, that right now our verticals are insinuating a lot of nudity,
06:27but not actually showing full nudity.
06:30Um, so it's really more about creating the intensity and the emotion of the sex scene and, and, um, you know, being able to determine, is it, is it something that's just light and romantic or is it passionate?
06:46Like, those are very different, um, ways of engaging with each other's bodies.
06:52Um, so when we approach these choreography scenes, I mean, you know, obviously we have to figure out what our camera angle is going to be so that we can show things without showing things.
07:04We have to figure out, you know, how much wardrobe stays on, how much comes off, how does that happen, um, in relationship to the camera angle.
07:14And then once all of that, those logistics are figured out, you know, then you can help the actors relax into the emotion and help them say, and help them by saying, okay, you know, the camera's only going to be here.
07:29You know, your clothing is only going to come off to here.
07:33Um, so now you're free within that space to really just let go and, and be actors and, and do your job.
07:41Um, and if the camera slips or the clothing slips, we'll yell, cut, we'll let you know, you know, we'll, we'll mark that with the script supervisor that we're not going to use that take just to ensure that everybody understands that was a mistake.
07:56And then we go back and we do it again.
07:57I mean, it's, it's really very technical, um, so that you can then put your actors in the space and let them be free.
08:07Yes.
08:07Do you need to always my argument for people?
08:10Yeah.
08:10It's always my argument for producers and directors who don't want to spend money on an intimacy coordinator is to say to them, well, I'm actually going to save you time and money.
08:19And I'm going to save you a lot of trouble on the back end, um, by really organizing everything so clearly, almost like a, almost like a dance class where you go up to the ballet bar and you do all of your same exercises every day.
08:34So that when you go on stage, you can just be free and you know, you have the structure underneath you that's supporting you.
08:41So it's, it's a very similar process.
08:45Yes.
08:45And also because the verticals are being shot in a very, very constrained, uh, timeline and timeframe.
08:52So also I guess that it is even more important because you don't have time.
08:56I know that sometimes you're shooting for seven to 10 days, maybe 15, but it would be more around 10 days.
09:03So you need to be fast and then everything needs to be anticipated and prepared.
09:07So I can imagine that you need to be even better prepared.
09:12Yeah.
09:13And oftentimes with verticals, um, at least this has been my experience as a director, you know, the process is it's, it's so fast.
09:21I was saying that as a director, oftentimes, you know, the production gives us such a short amount of time to shoot that I help me.
09:29Sometimes I have one take, so I have to make sure it's going to be perfect because it's the only one I might have.
09:36Um, you know, depending on the scene, um, some scenes you'll get two or three takes if you're lucky, if it's like, you know, really complicated and, um, but, but, you know, the, um, most of it is, is one, maybe two takes.
09:50So you really have to be prepared and ready and, um, you know, you have to make sure that one of those takes is going to give you the image that you need.
10:05And how do you, how do you prepare?
10:08I mean, how does it, how much does it take?
10:11Um, do you coordinate with actors before, or is it pretty much with the, uh, let's say the production team?
10:18Uh, do you have some calls before some meetings, uh, on the field?
10:24Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, for both jobs, whether it's intimacy coordinating or directing, you know, your preparation is your most important process.
10:36Um, and, you know, each production company is going to make themselves available as they see fit.
10:45So as a director or as an intimacy coordinator, I kind of always have to be looking at how I need to adjust to make sure that I'm getting the preparation I need to then give my actors the preparation they need.
10:59Um, but then satisfy the production's timeframe and financial constraints.
11:05Um, so it's, it's really, you know, it's, it's a, both of them are very diplomatic jobs in a way.
11:12You're, you're really spending a lot of time touching on conversations with many different people in the, in the production process, um, to make sure that you have done as much preparation as you can.
11:29So that when you show up, everybody that you need to be ready for what you need to do, you know, is ready.
11:37And often that's, you know, I mean, as an intimacy coordinator, um, you hope.
11:42That the production will give you a preparation day.
11:45I mean, like if I can, if I can advocate for my fellow intimacy coordinators out there in the world, I, I do think that it's money well spent for a production to give the intimacy coordinator, you know, some kind of compensation for a preparation day, because that's their own time.
12:03Um, they're sitting on the phone, they're sitting on the phone, they're making sure that, you know, that the wardrobe has the appropriate garments on their own time.
12:10Um, they are possibly bringing their intimacy coordinator kit to the set, which has very expensive, you know, types of, of modesty covering, um, that they cannot reuse.
12:25That, you know, that comes out of their pocket, um, as an expense, for example, you know, some of the things to cover a woman's breast or, or the groin area, you know, those start at 40, 50 euro or 40, 50 dollars a piece.
12:40Um, so, you know, um, and they bring that stuff to the table.
12:45They bring all of those things to the table as a tool to help your actors feel more comfortable so that your actors will give you better performances at, at the end of the day.
12:58So, I think it's all, it's money that's, that ultimately, when you spend it in the front, you save it on the other side.
13:06Because it's a key for success.
13:08It is, because if you think about it, like, let's say, let's say somebody, you know, had, didn't have proper covering and, and clothing slipped and you saw somebody's nipple.
13:18Now you're going to have to go into After Effects and spend the money there to cover that up.
13:23Because contractually, you have to do that.
13:26So, why not just, you're going to spend that money either way.
13:30So, it might be more expensive afterwards.
13:33It might be, or it might be more, it might turn into a legal problem if the actor is unhappy with the way that that looks.
13:39So, it's, you know, again, just let, give your intimacy coordinator the tool that they need and the time that they need to make sure everything is going to go smoothly on set.
13:50So, I always, I always want to advocate for people in that position because I know producers don't like to spend the money.
13:57And sometimes directors, certain directors, I think they feel defensive sometimes when an intimacy coordinator is there because they assume that, oh, people think I'm the director and I'm going to do something bad.
14:11As opposed to feeling like, oh, here's another crew member to help me.
14:18That's how I feel as a director.
14:20And I always, people have tried to get me to direct and intimacy coordinate.
14:24And I always insist that they pay for an intimacy coordinator.
14:27Because as a director, I'm in a position of power.
14:31But also as a director, I want to get the shot.
14:36And I might, as a human being, it's natural to be conflicted.
14:43Oh, here's the shot.
14:44But then here's what the actor wants.
14:46But I want the shot because I'm the director.
14:48You know, and it's, it's, I think, just easier to hire an intimacy coordinator to let them do that part of the production job to help me, not to block me or hurt me, but to help me so that I can focus on being the director instead.
15:06Because it's a different mindset and you can do both at the same time.
15:11Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah.
15:12Yeah.
15:12I mean, you could.
15:13One could do both, but why would you ever want to take that chance that you would be up against a problem on set?
15:22Because we all know, we've all been on set.
15:24There's always a problem.
15:26Something, something always goes wrong.
15:29There's always a problem.
15:31And that's part of the work environment is that we are solving problems all day long as filmmakers.
15:37And what kind of problems and difficulties do you encounter and do you face?
15:45Do you have examples particular or very specific to the verticals?
15:49Or do you think it's for any projects, any kind, any movies?
15:54I think in particular with verticals, I think the biggest problem is the speed at which you are shooting.
16:03You are shooting so fast that it's very easy to forget that you are working with human beings and human bodies on set.
16:14Your producer is a human being.
16:16Your DP is a human being.
16:18Your actors are human beings.
16:19They can only move so fast until you reach a point where safety then becomes a problem.
16:27And now that verticals are moving into these, you know, I mean, I just collaborated with a friend of mine who's a producer on some verticals and they had underwater fight sequences.
16:40They had, you know, people jumping off of things.
16:44I mean, the stunts and a lot of the physical movement, they're getting bigger and bolder, but yet they're being asked to shoot in that same 10-day time frame, which means your margin for error gets smaller.
17:00And you have to be that much more prepared and that much more conscious of what you're, how fast you're asking people to move and to do things for you.
17:12So I think for me as a director, that's the biggest challenge in verticals is how do I work really fast, protect people physically, but then also remember that actors need you.
17:26When you're a director, you need to approach them calm and in an energy that allows them to open their heart and be vulnerable.
17:36Like you can't go at your actor the way you go at your first AC or your first AD or, you know, like you have to like, and each actor has a different personality and a different way of working.
17:49So you often have to change your approach very quickly, depending on which person you're talking to.
17:57So I think with the verticals, it's that, that speed that really challenges your ability to work efficiently, but still as a human to human relationship.
18:15Yeah, I think it's, it's all about, uh, human being coordination and human being, uh, uh, uh, yes, um, try to really focus also on human being parts.
18:29Um, also what I, what I think is, is a very big paradox is, is what you said, like you have to do more, uh, but with, uh, fewer and lower budget and less, uh, less means.
18:41Uh, so I, I understand the challenge.
18:43I think some of that will shift in the United States, at least right now, um, we have Screen Actors Guild, um, and we have IATSE, which is our crew guild, and we have the Directors Guild and the Writers Guild.
18:58They are now starting to develop contracts for vertical production companies because up until this point, the vertical productions sort of live in a, in a place online where it's, and, and they are distributed and, um, uh, projected or streamed in a particular way that makes it really hard for unions.
19:27So the unions have kind of let the industry grow, they've let the union talent work on these productions as they were figuring out, okay, how do we create a contract that will work for the vertical company?
19:49But also will protect all of our union members who are working on these, and I, I'm not sure how much of that is going to change the budgets.
19:59Um, and I'm not sure how much of that is going to impact verticals in the European Union, which is where I'm now trying to do U.S. EU co-pros.
20:09So I'm trying to bring the celebrities from the vertical world in the U.S. to do production in France in particular.
20:18Um, so we'll see how that contract changes things and how it shifts things, um, I imagine some of these vertical companies will start looking towards Europe to shoot even more because Europe doesn't have the same union restrictions, um, as the United States does.
20:37Union, European Union protects their workers in a different way, um, through the government, whereas we protect our workers through the unions in the United States.
20:48So, um, it'll be interesting to see if some of the vertical companies don't want to deal with the union contracts and, um, and would prefer to just come to the European Union and work because they know, you know, they can have a certain budget and that the way Europeans pay taxes will then support your healthcare, your pension, all of those things that we pay extra for in the United States through our union memberships.
21:18That would be an advantage to have more verticals being shot in France and Europe.
21:24Mm-hmm. I think so. I think, you know, again, it's, um, from my experience of, of working on a couple of productions in Europe, um, European filmmaking, filmmaking productions tend to be smaller crews anyway.
21:40Um, the US is very accustomed to huge amounts of people on set. Um, and again, some of that is because of our unions, um, have requirements for the number of people that you have on set. Um, so European Union filmmakers, I think, are more accustomed to a smaller crew. Um, you know, I think what will be challenging is, um, you know, getting the European filmmakers to work at the pace.
22:08That the vertical companies want you to work at, because I think, um, in my experience, which is not as much as yours, because my experience shooting in France on film is, is a little bit, is a newer experience for me.
22:24But, um, you know, I've noticed that, you know, you, in Europe, you take your lunch break very seriously. Whereas in America, we tend to, we take a break in quotation marks, but, you know, oftentimes we, we are doing little bits and pieces of work during that break.
22:42Um, uh, we tend to think nothing of working a 12 hour day, like for us, that's normal, where that's, you know, not so normal in Europe. Um, so I think those will be the challenges as the vertical companies maybe look towards Europe to, to be able to work in a, in a non-union capacity.
23:03Um, but I don't think they're insurmountable. Um, but I don't think they're insurmountable. Again, I just think it's about preparation and about managing your expectations of how you are going to shoot.
23:14You don't have a lot of time for a million angles. You know, you have, you have the one vertical angle and, and what's great about the post production and vertical and the vertical companies is they oftentimes will do the punch in in post.
23:29So you don't necessarily need the closeup. You can just do a nice, you know, three quarter vertical, and you'll know that in post, they'll punch it in for you if you want an extreme closeup.
23:40So that saves you time. So as long as you know, those kinds of tricks that the production company is going to utilize, it makes preparing for that very fast paced shoot and almost a skeleton shoot.
23:55Like you're really just picking up the basics when you're shooting in vertical. Um, it helps you to wrap your head around that concept, that way of shooting, which is very different than a long feature film where you have lots of time, you know, you'll spend a whole day on one scene instead of, you know, 10 scenes in one day.
24:19Um, so it's just, again, it's, it's an interesting, um, it's an interesting industry. I think it's a great way to bring extra income to filmmakers who live in Europe who are looking to do a little work between the bigger jobs.
24:36You know, something that's just really quick and easy and, you know, straight to the point and you're paid fairly quickly. Um, I think that's, that could be a really wonderful cushion for artists, you know, between the bigger jobs. Um, especially as you know, the, the film and TV industries are struggling a little bit right now.
24:58So it's nice to have a little additional work that is in your field as opposed to trying to find a job that's, you know, you're going to go babysit for somebody even between jobs. Right.
25:13And so I think it's, I'm crossing my fingers that, you know, some of these productions that I'm trying to create here will come to fruition, um, you know, and kind of bring the best of both worlds, the best of the kind of American, uh, aesthetic that went with verticals and then the European aesthetic and bring those two things together and maybe create something, you know, better.
25:38And, and, and what are your plans? Do you have current projects here in Europe or in France or things that you want to accomplish or implement?
25:48Yeah. And well, I'm currently, I'm currently pitching, um, to, uh, financiers and vertical production companies here, um, in Europe. Um, and I have several, you know, quote unquote, celebrity vertical actors who are signed on to several projects.
26:08projects that I, you know, that I want to find co-producers for here in the European union. So that's kind of where I am at in the stage, but my, my ultimate goal is to be able to then build up, you know, the, um, number of verticals that are being shot in the European union.
26:26And again, and again, to be able to collaborate, you know, to be able to utilize some of the American actors, um, here, bring them here and then hire all European crews. And then hopefully as that gets bigger and stronger, then.
26:43Each European country can create the verticals in their own language, you know, and, and, and, and build off of that co-pro. So I'm, I'm, you know, very much thinking of this co-pro, uh, process as a way to then empower each individual country to say, here, here's like a really strong base.
27:05Now, now you go do whichever productions you want to do in your own language, for your own country, you know, for your own audience. But, you know, I think, I think the base really still needs to be built up.
27:19Yeah. And I think it's great that we have people like you with such a good experience to also lead the way. And I think as you were saying, the interesting part will be to have this combination of experiences and backgrounds, uh, to have, to make the most of it.
27:34So, yeah, because each country does something really, really well, like, you know, Americans are really good, you know, at certain things. French people are really good at certain things. German people are really good at certain things, you know, within the field. And I think, you know, as an artist who has always worked in many countries, you know, from when I was a choreographer, I was working with German dancers and French dancers and Polish dancers.
27:59And so I have, you know, I have a point of view, I think, as an artist, you know, that, that really can, um, highlight the fact that, you know, each culture brings something really valuable to the table.
28:15No, no, no one culture does everything perfectly, you know, and I think, um, you know, in a time where everybody's so polarized and, and things are really not well in the world.
28:27Um, I think this idea that filmmaking, you know, can bring all these cultures together and just say, hey, you know, each one of us is really good at something. Let's, let's pool our resources and make something, you know, really positive and really strong, utilizing all of our strengths.
28:45And do you think that, um, intercultural teams are needed?
28:50Um, I don't know if they're needed, but I think, but I think, um, in my experience, I've always benefited from intercultural, um, whether it's an intercultural dance company or an intercultural film set.
29:07Um, again, I think, um, having somebody else's point of view and learning how somebody else does something gives you an opportunity to improve on the thing that you do well, you know, or to add something to it that makes it stronger.
29:25So I personally think that they are beneficial, um, and also fun, you know, for me, it's fun to work with people from different places.
29:35Um, you know, I, I find that to be exciting and, and, um, it helps me grow as a person.
29:44Yeah. And I think verticals, it's a great way to improve because it's new, uh, many challenges, as you said. So I think that's also a great area to improve and be creative.
29:55Yeah.
29:57Anything that you would like to add before we finish the interview, um, your vision, your perspectives, uh,
30:03what you wish for as a vertical environment.
30:09Um, I think the thing that I, the one thing I do wish for in the vertical environment is, you know, it would be lovely if
30:16we could find the balance of
30:23creating verticals in an economical way,
30:27but also you had asked me, you know, like kind of what my,
30:33if I had any sort of hopes and dreams for, for, um, the future.
30:38And I, I think my biggest hope and dream is number one, that vertical producers,
30:45you know, the people who really are in charge of,
30:48you know, making the money, which is right now the vertical distributors.
30:52It's, it's, it's the people who are creating these platforms to, you know, put the verticals on,
30:58that they really step away from the idea of cheaper and faster.
31:04And that, um,
31:07you know, I, I certainly, as a business person,
31:11I respect that they are trying to make things economical,
31:14but there's economical and then there's cheap.
31:17And, um, I, my hope is that the industry grows to a point where,
31:23you know, they can still do things in an economical way.
31:27Cause I, I know budgets are a concern for them,
31:29but that they can make sure that they're paying people a living wage.
31:33Um, because that's really important.
31:36You don't want to exhaust people and you don't want to create environments that are unsafe.
31:42Um, so that's one of my dreams is that the industry will grow into a place where,
31:48you know, they can still do things at a certain budget,
31:51but also make sure that everybody is well taken care of.
31:54And that, you know, you're not trying to cheat in areas where it could be dangerous for people,
32:02um, or unhealthy for people.
32:05Um, and then I think another, another vision of mine that I've created for myself,
32:12and I hope other people can create this is I've been able to get celebrity actors like Casey Esser,
32:18um, you know, to collaborate with me and to sign, you know, contracts with me saying,
32:24yes, you know, if you can get financed, I will agree to be in such and such a production.
32:29I think that, that that's a strong relationship between directors and actors.
32:33Um, you know, it also strengthens, um, the project because you're hiring directors and actors
32:42who already love working together and they already have a language for each other.
32:46So I think, you know, actors and directors like really, you know, being on the same team
32:51and, and creating projects together that they can then send to a production company
32:59and the production company can feel confident that, oh, I have a winning team.
33:04Let's use them again.
33:06You know, so those two things for me are, are kind of like my dream vision
33:10and, and, and something that I have been able to start to cultivate and create for myself
33:16that I hope other people can learn from and do.
33:19And I hope that I can continue to do more of that.
33:23It's a long-term vision with, uh, actors from movies that you can bring to verticals.
33:29Yeah.
33:29And also safety first, of course, because it's really important, as you said, security, safety,
33:34uh, also to build this partnership between directors and actors.
33:37And also you do not want to have exhausted actors who then refuse to, to go in these,
33:44you know, very constrained, um, shooting days.
33:48So also we need to be careful because if we want verticals to grow and have good actors,
33:52we also need to be, um, careful with that.
33:56Yeah.
33:57And the crew, you don't want a tired crew.
33:59I mean, your crew, you're, you can't do anything without a crew.
34:02Yeah.
34:03So you cannot shoot anything without grips, gaffers, you know, PAs, cameramen.
34:11You need those people and you need them to be strong, healthy, and excited and awake.
34:17You know, they need to be well-rested.
34:19They need, they need to show up.
34:21Um, and, and if you burn out everybody and if you make it hard for them to pay their rent,
34:28then you're not going to have an industry.
34:31So I think, you know, again, there's economical, which is great.
34:35And then there's cheap, which is not great.
34:39So you need to find the right balance.
34:40Stay on this side of the fence.
34:44Great.
34:44Well, I really hope, uh, that that's the way it's going to grow.
34:48And I think that's a consistent way to grow.
34:50So thank you for, for sharing with us.
34:52Thank you so much for, thank you for having me.
34:55I mean, it's, I'm, I'm so excited.
34:58Um, you know, I'm, I'm also really honored and humbled and touched that the French community
35:03is really embracing me and, and giving me space to, you know, bring some things here
35:12and, and to find ways to collaborate together.
35:14We feel very lucky too.
35:16And we really hope it's, it's just the first interview and we will have many others
35:20where you can also share with your future projects with Europe and with France.
35:23Thank you.
35:25Thank you so much.
35:26Thanks to you, Jennifer.
35:28All right.
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