00:00hello and welcome to the europe conversation i'm stefan grobe in the european commission
00:13she's in charge of promoting equality and inclusion and upholding minorities rights
00:19women's rights lgbtq rights and she's working on a new anti-racism strategy
00:24she's also responsible for crisis management and civil preparedness and strengthening
00:30international cooperation and humanitarian diplomacy now if that is not a crucial portfolio
00:36i don't know what is so i'm excited to be joined by eu commissioner hadja labib
00:42welcome to the program it's a pleasure to have you here thank you for having me stefan so let me start
00:48by asking you about the situation in the middle east that you have expressed hope that work on
00:54two-state solution can begin soon and it shouldn't be a mere slogan now today are you more hopeful
01:03or less hopeful about this it's clear that the ceasefire has opened a window of hope we all
01:11saw the hostages back in israel embracing their beloved one but we also saw as well millions of palestinians
01:23going back and in a sea of rubble without home without nothing by the way and so the
01:33urgent is now to alleviate the suffering to recover and to provide humanitarian aid and that's exactly
01:42what we are doing this is the second phase of the humanitarian agreement the israeli authorities
01:51uh agreed to uh let 600 trucks per day to enter into gaza but we are not there yet and so we
02:01asked the israeli authorities to uh keep their promises uh the winter is coming the situation is dramatic
02:11with population which is starving children and women uh to the breach of the famine there is a famine and
02:20we want to avoid this famine to spread what can you do as european union as european commission as eu
02:28to you know accelerate that process uh to put the pressure and you know that we proposed as a commission to
02:37lift partially the association agreement and this is a tool that we have this it's a leverage and that's why we decided
02:45uh the the previous uh foreign affairs council to let this tool on the table to say look the israelis are
02:54the government is our first uh partner we are their first uh trade partners and we are the first global
03:03humanitarian donor of the palestinian authorities so with this balanced approach we need also to be sure
03:14that all rules or principles are respected and you certainly heard about the article two of the
03:21association agreement who ask our partner to respect human rights now you have been um very critical
03:30towards israel already when you were belgian foreign minister i'm not critical i'm balanced and just
03:36okay but but you advocated a stronger european stance um on the other side benjamin netanyahu has said on
03:44this program that europe has become irrelevant and that some european countries positions amounts to
03:52supporting hamas how do we go from here how can we improve relations with israel you know
03:58uh i don't like to speak about improving uh our relation with israel it's about improving uh the humanitarian
04:09law the international humanitarian law and to uh remind that there are rules to be respected
04:17conventions geneva convention that asks that every um state that is occupying a territory to
04:26uh to um be sure that the population received a basic help aid and we are there to provide this aid
04:36we have tons tons of goods waiting at the border at the rafa crossing and i repeat that part of the
04:45agreement is uh also the delivering of humanitarian aid we want to see waves of truck entering into gaza so
04:54we are in a sea of destruction 90 of the buildings are completely destroyed it gives you a glimpse of
05:07what is at stake let me go back to the netanyahu's remark that europe is irrelevant um did he have a
05:15point here where do you see europe's footprint in the the diplomacy the ongoing diplomacy we have been
05:22involved in the region as an honest broker for decades for israel we are the first economic partners
05:30for palestinians we are the first global uh donor humanitarian donor but also we are supporting the
05:38improvement the reform of the governance of the palestinian authorities and it is in the interest of the
05:45palestinians but also in the interest of the israelis to have a strong robust governance a palestinian
05:55authority who is recognized who is democratic and we are helping them to reform and we are ready to play
06:01our role uh be it by ubam uh the eu uh border mission of assistance by also training with uh the the policemen
06:14with you cops we have a lot of programs but we need uh good faith from both sides and we are talking with
06:22all parties and another thing is that you know within our european union we have a diversity of opinions
06:30of histories that is a very friendly description yes but also it shows that you know uh from us yeah
06:40emerge a compromise which is also the right balance between those who feel close to the israeli
06:48governments and the others on this on this point and you're just saying that that europe speaks to
06:54everybody i think eventually it boils down to the question will hamas disarm and um move the the
07:04ceasefire agreement forward do you see this happening there i mean the the whole thing it looks pretty
07:09fragile right now um but but will they do that and if they don't want to do that can europe put the
07:18pressure on hamas hamas hamas is not an interlocutor for us it's a terrorist group uh the plan is clear
07:28we need to see hamas disarmed and not being part of the two-state solution we don't want the extremists
07:37on board from both sides i have to say and it was also clear when we organized i was then minister of
07:44foreign affairs the day after conference with uh the arab countries with the saudi arabia and it was
07:52also on the table when france uh with the eu organized the conference that leads to the recognition of
08:00the palestinian states uh from many member states within the eu and uh for us it's clear hamas is not
08:07part of the future and how do you bring them to put the arms down because this is the this is the with
08:14our commitment uh with our help uh with our diplomatic pressure and also our dialogue our constant
08:22dialogue with the the the arab countries yeah um one more question concerning the the reconstruction
08:30of casa you've said how the the situation is and and this is typically um a situation where europe
08:38is very strong uh helping with money with expertise um humanitarian aid etc um now some observers suggest
08:48that europe may lose this spot because the the gulf states are more and more active diplomatically
08:56financially economically do you see this potentially happening that that europe is further pushed to the
09:04sidelines here um to the benefit of the gulf states i don't think so i'm rather convinced to the country
09:12we are sitting at the table we have our place as honest brokers speaking with all parties with the gulf
09:20countries but also with the americans with the israelis and uh we have this expertise we are supporting we
09:28are the first humanitarian donor but also in cooperation in development we are really involved and we are
09:35supporting uh also uh the palestinian authority uh to reform to become uh democratic countries to
09:44organize in a near future we hope uh also um um universal elections and so on and to regain also the trust
09:53of their own uh citizens let me um pivot now um to the war in ukraine um if i may i said at the
10:01beginning you're also in charge of uh civil preparedness um in a in a different sense is the european
10:09public prepared um to support ukraine as long as it takes this is our motto you know when i was minister
10:19foreign affairs i remember we were always repeating that we will uh support ukraine as long as it takes
10:27and we are doing so and we will continue to do so i have traveled a lot many times uh in ukraine
10:35and for instance they are uh also leading by example when it comes to preparedness and uh you know
10:43through our eco system dg eco which is under my limits this is the largest operation ever lead by our
10:54services transporting more than 150 000 uh items mainly um generators to help ukraine a country which is
11:06targeted in uh in uh its civilian infrastructures in a blatant violation of international humanitarian law
11:14again can you talk to very concrete aspects of eu humanitarian um aid and and is it is the situation
11:23possible conceivable that europe would take in more refugees if the situation on the ground requires it
11:30we we we already uh welcomed uh millions of refugees with a specific status allowing them to work and to be
11:40really fully integrated uh in our societies and it was it is a success now uh when it comes to our concrete support
11:50you know when i was uh traveling there uh the last winter uh i remember visiting uh schools building in a shelter you know it's the
12:00only way to to ensure uh education for ukrainian children but also protection of the elderly and the
12:10people with disabilities as you mentioned i'm also responsible for equality and to ensure that we are not
12:19leaving no one behind and especially the most fragile in ukraine the last eu summit just signed off on the
12:25the 19th sanctions package against russia and continue to stand with ukraine at the same time
12:33the the question of frozen assets the loan uh for ukraine has been kicked down the road uh into the next
12:42month what message does this send um to ukraine and to ukrainians and belgium uh played an active role
12:51here and that's blocking the loan for now we are not blocking the loans and uh for two years now we are
13:00also uh giving uh to ukrainians uh the profits uh the interest uh of these loans that are blocked and that
13:10are frozen uh but these loans you know needs to be uh it's the first in our history we don't have
13:18uh an example to follow and it needs to be secured in a legal point of view that's the only thing that's
13:26the only point and uh and the message that we are conveying to the ukrainians is that we are by your
13:36side always we will help you to to defend your borders because your borders is our borders and we don't
13:44want to see uh further the russians grapping uh territories ukrainian territories we are well aware
13:52and we are constantly repeating that their securities are security so we are with them we are going to
14:00also reinforce our own security and um but we just need to time i think it's a it's a question of time
14:09um on on that point we've seen a russian hybrid attacks on uh europe as well cyber attacks drone
14:17incursions and other operations does europe take this hybrid war seriously enough very seriously and
14:25that's why a couple of months ago i presented the preparedness strategy which is based on all hazards
14:34all kind of threats because today's threats are not yesterday's threats yesterday it was mainly wildfires
14:41floods natural disaster but today we see drones violating our uh airspace it happened even here in
14:50belgium uh in in other in denmark in poland uh in estonia and uh we saw saw the the hybrid threats
15:00misinformation misinformation disinformation campaign during the moldovan elections uh with 14 million
15:09uh attempts uh to disturb and a cyber attack to to influence the results of the election fortunately
15:18it was unsuccessful but it means that we are facing a multiplication of threats so
15:26in short is europe ready for war we are preparing we are prepared every day for everything okay um and
15:38let me go back to the belgian position on the frozen assets i want to to explain i know that you are
15:44skeptical i saw your face i just want to explain you war is not you know a shower or a soldier knocking
15:51at your door saying oh look i'm going to invade you no it is not a reality today's reality is a virus
15:59a chemical attack a nuclear incident that is maybe provoked by a power outages you know all these things
16:09are very subtile so we need to have a good understanding of today's threat now on belgium and
16:16the frozen assets i want to come back to this um what message does the belgian position send to the
16:24ukrainians right now the fact is that euro clear is based in belgium it's an international platform
16:32and the message is clear we are with the ukrainians and we will support them in their efforts of war
16:42but we need time we need to secure the legal aspect to be to be sure that belgium is not going to be
16:52brought in front of a court of justice later on that's it so the the belgian prime minister has
16:59repeatedly said he fears a retribution from from russia legal uh legal problems how serious is that
17:08especially in in a context of war and are the others immune to that argument why is that why is
17:16there still no agreement on this why is this is so difficult to sort of spread the risk because in it
17:23is in the it is a first in our uh history that we are going to take the assets that are blocked
17:33following uh an invasion a war an unfair one and so it is uh we don't have examples to follow and
17:44it needs to be secured legally that's it when i ask you one one last question um i want to bring up a
17:52very particular threat to our societies and i know that you are very concerned about that and that is
18:00regression intolerance and the demonization of dissenters um racism anti-semitism and sexism
18:09are on the rise you are in charge of equality and inclusion how do you promote this these days
18:16with good sense you know i like figures and uh obviously uh equality is also in the interest of
18:28our economies of our economies of our competitiveness we need to have all the skills the potential skills
18:36on board if we decide that half of the humanity women for instance cannot uh um have a complete and full
18:46uh career to deploy all their talents that are that are they are refrained uh with um kids with uh you know
18:59culture uh impediment and also that we don't accept the lgbtq plus people and so on this is an attempt
19:09also to our competitiveness this is refraining ourselves and you know violence has a cost it costs
19:18290 billion a year for the entire european union we all pay the price of this violence exclusion has
19:28also uh a price this is 390 billion a year so if we want to to spare money in this period of financial
19:39crisis we need also to to to fight against uh exclusion discrimination and to have all the skills uh
19:47on board all right you commissioner hadj al-abib fascinating conversation thank you so much for
19:53for coming on the show thank you
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