- 4 months ago
This episode takes on Substack from both sides of the keyboard, the company’s own success story and how creators are finding success on the platform. Hamish McKenzie, Substack’s co-founder and Chief Writing Officer (that’s what it says on his substack), joins the show to break down the intentional choices that made Substack such a writer’s haven and why he believes it’s still the best deal in town for creators. Then writer Casey Lewis pops in to share how she built her own thriving Substack community and the strategies any writer can use to boost their odds of success.
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00:00Yeah, I think our media system is in a major period of transition with the arrival of the
00:04internet. The old models that supported media are completely obsolete. I love to like jump
00:10from one thing to another. I, you know, even currently while talking to you, I have about,
00:14you know, 40 tabs open in front of me. Hopefully that's not impacting our connection here.
00:20Hi, I'm Dan Bova and welcome to How Success Happens, the show where I speak to people who
00:30are stacking up success. Like today's guest, Hamish McKenzie, one of the visionary co-founders
00:40of Substack. So we're going to speak with Hamish about the birth, mission and growth of Substack.
00:47And then later, we're going to be joined by one of the platform's most successful writers,
00:52Casey Lewis, to learn some of the best practices for growing your own newsletter. Okay, let's get
00:59to it. Welcome, Hamish. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, great to talk to you. I, Substack,
01:08reader and writer, I have one called This Should Be Fun, where I write embarrassing stories about
01:13my life and mostly my dog. But I love Substack. I love just the vibe. I love all the analytics you
01:20give writers. It's incredible. But why don't we just go back to the idea for Substack? Like what,
01:28what was it that made you say, hey, we could do something different than what's out there?
01:34Well, Substack started with just me and Chris Best, who's the CEO. And we had worked together at
01:41Kik, which was a big messaging app company that he co-founded. And by the time we both had stepped
01:46away from Kik, he was kind of looking around for what he was going to do next. I was just finishing
01:50a book. And one of the things he wanted to play around with was doing more writing. And he had
01:55written this blog post, a draft of a blog post that was kind of complaining about the media economy
02:02and the state of social media and how it was leading us to all these bad behaviors and driving us
02:08apart as a society. And he shared this piece with me for my feedback because I was one of the few
02:13writers he knew. And I said to him, well, this is a great piece. But the people who work in media know
02:20that these are the problems. But what people don't know is what can be done about them, what's a
02:24productive solution. So maybe you should include a couple of paragraphs that suggest a better way
02:29forward. And to his credit or discredit, I'm not sure which, he never actually finished the blog
02:35post because he got obsessed with this idea of what could be better. And those conversations
02:41led ultimately to what SoftStack is today. That's right. Well, let's talk about what is it
02:48today? How many users do you have right now? Give us the scope of things. Well, SoftStack is today
02:54a new media app. So it's primarily now a destination that people go to to find the voices that they love
03:00and trust the most, whether they're writers or audio or video or communities. And there's more
03:05than 5 million paid subscriptions across the platform and tens of millions of active subscribers
03:11if they're free or paid. So it's a really healthy and growing fast ecosystem.
03:16All right. Well, you yourself are a writer, as you mentioned. You worked at Tesla for a long time.
03:24So a couple of things I want to ask you about that. Your former boss is an interesting guy.
03:31What'd you learn working at Tesla that you carried over to co-founding your own company?
03:39Yeah, I'll make the slight edit that I wasn't at Tesla that long. I was there for about a year and a
03:43quarter in total, but it was a wild time. And I did learn a lot while I was there. And I worked
03:48with Elon and got to see him up close. And some of the things that I've carried over from
03:53that time and my experience with him is that it's okay to be wildly ambitious and back yourself when
04:01you try to do big things and to not be too scared of failure. Don't let your fear of failure dictate
04:07what you're actually doing. In fact, as one of Elon's co-founders at the time, J.B. Straubel,
04:13said that Tesla would prepare and plan for success just to sort of like assuming they would succeed
04:20with whatever initiative they're pursuing at any given time. And then if things didn't really work
04:25out, then they would figure out creative ways around the quote unquote failure to turn it into
04:31something good or turn it into something positive. But that they just sort of decided they're going to
04:37do something and they went ahead with conviction and assumed it was going to work out.
04:41So at the time we're recording this, and surely by the time people are listening to this, I mean,
04:48we're at a moment that seems extremely divisive in social media and legacy media. You've called this
04:56moment chaos media. But you've also said that you think you're on, that we're on our way to something
05:04the best that mankind has ever seen. Can you explain that a little bit and what you're kind of
05:09envisioning? Yeah, I think our media system is in a major period of transition that was
05:16instigated by the arrival of the internet. And that was, you know, really only 30 years ago,
05:21something like 30 years ago. And that's a massive cataclysmic change in society on the order of the
05:28printing press, but actually probably more significant than the printing press even. When the printing press
05:33came in and there was intense social and economic disruption and reordering. And I think we're seeing
05:39the same with the arrival of the internet. The old models that supported media are completely
05:45obsolete. The ones, you know, what the models at CNN and the New York Times, et cetera, or the old
05:50version of the New York Times and all the newspapers and all the radio stations are built on were designed
05:56for a world of a hundred years ago. The internet has made them obsolete, or at least has totally upended
06:04them. And so what we've got is those old traditional media players scrambling to adapt to a new reality.
06:12And in the meantime, internet native players stepping in to claim the blank space. And the first version
06:19of what we've got in that transition from the internet is basically social media, which is built
06:25on a bunch of rules that don't have that much in common with the traditional media outlets that were
06:32trying to do their best to get close to truth and build some sense of understanding. But their rules,
06:38the rules of the social media players are much more about like, how can we get people addicted to our
06:43feeds and playing a game that is based on grabbing attention. And it turns out that that leads to a lot
06:50of chaos. That model has some benefits, but is also really ugly and messy in some extreme ways in terms of
06:57its social outcomes. And so what I think we're on our way to though, there's a different kind of model
07:03that can harness all the powers and benefits of the internet that can more intentionally design for
07:09better social outcomes or for better civil outcomes.
07:12What is, so what are those ways? You talked about this, this idea of a gardening model versus the kind
07:21of thing we see happening on Facebook and TikTok and Twitter, where people are just kind of being
07:27awarded for getting points for being as extreme as possible to get as many eyeballs on it. Can you talk
07:35a little bit about how you think that growth on Substack, you know, offers opportunities for
07:41nuanced discussions instead of just extreme one-liners?
07:45Yeah, I think if we look at the old traditional media as something more like a temple where there's
07:51top-down control, like massive centralization and official voices, and we look at chaos media as
07:58being still top-down control and centralized power by anyone can speak, then the world that we could
08:06move to is something much more like a garden where there is actual true democratization. Anyone can have
08:13a voice, but they don't just get a voice, they also can get economic power. And that way, the power can be
08:20distributed instead of hoarded, instead of centralized, and we can get a much more balanced
08:26distribution of voices and thinking and dialogue. And so we can start to have a media system that operates
08:36much more like a living organism or something much more like a brain, and it still needs some
08:43guardrails, it still needs some rules, but the platforms that are enabling this to succeed can't be
08:52thinking like, oh, we're just going to trap everyone in these addiction feeds and decide who gets to win
08:58in these games. They have to instead think about how do we cultivate a system that honestly and truly
09:05distributes power and that helps this living organism thrive rather than just sort of like trying to
09:12exploit people's attention.
09:13Right, right. And how do you, you've offered new things like the videos and notes, which
09:21isn't that new, but it's new. How do you go about developing new things like that? And how do you
09:29try to make sure that Substack is, you know, what Substack is, and you're adding to it without taking it in
09:37explosively different directions?
09:38Yeah, the question of what Substack is, is a great one, because for a long time, I've kind of
09:46said that Substack's product is really its model. And the model is something that gives writers and
09:53creators true ownership. They have exit rights from Substack. They can take their content and their
09:58subscriber relationships with them anytime they want. And it's a model that is based, where the
10:04monetization is based on direct relationships between the creators and their audience. And
10:09the main way today is direct subscriptions. And then it's also a model where the platform can succeed
10:16only when the writers and the creators succeed. And so as long as those foundational principles remain
10:23true, you can build a whole interesting and flexible platform on top that allows new types of businesses and
10:31new types of media organizations and entities to thrive. And so that means it doesn't, it means like,
10:38yes, like a kind of email service that allows paid email newsletters to be built can be true to that
10:46model. But an entire social network can also be true to that model. And an entire social network where the
10:53creators have actual power and ownership has never been done before. And an entire social network where the
10:59creators can be making money directly on the platform by serving their audiences instead of trying to
11:05serve an algorithm or try to serve an advertiser, that hasn't been done before. And so I'm really
11:10excited about like, what is possible when you take the best of the social media technologies, these
11:17distribution and discussion and discovery features, with the best of what traditional media offered,
11:24which was a way to sustainably pursue better understanding of each other and quality work
11:31and put them into one place. I think we can see some really amazing things happen and it's never been
11:37done before. So it's a new territory. Are you getting letters from Mark Zuckerberg and people like that
11:45saying, Hey, how did you, how did you build a civilized place?
11:51We haven't got those letters from Mark Zuckerberg or, or, or, or his likes. But I do think it is a
11:59shocking thing for some people. I think people, as we've added these features for discovery and
12:04discussion that look a lot like Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, people are worried, are you going to
12:09break self-stack? Is this going to like change the experience? And then kind of surprised when they hang
12:15out in the feed or in the app themselves and realize that it is actually civilized, it's not totally
12:20perfect. It's still the internet, there's still some assholes, but it is a productive experience. When you
12:25spend time in the self-stack app, you come away usually feeling a bit smarter or a bit better, which is the
12:30complete opposite of what you come away from Twitter or Instagram feeling these days. And, and the reason
12:36isn't because we're geniuses and make the features better. And it's not because we've figured out
12:40foundational technologies is because we've benefited from these other eras of the technology and media
12:47ecosystem to see that the missing thing is not a piece of technology, or just the right feature that the missing
12:53thing is an intentional civil design that can help bring the best of culture and help the internet serve people
13:00rather than co-op them.
13:03Awesome. Awesome. I love that. I love that. So I know you are an extremely busy man. So I'm going to let you go and ask you
13:09three quick questions in, uh, the famous how success happens speed round. Are you ready?
13:16Okay. I guess I am.
13:20Okay. So, uh, particularly for you as a man whose job is, uh, hearing lots of voices, lots of opinions.
13:28How do you silence your brain at the end of the day and tune out the world when you feel like you need to?
13:34I find it very difficult to be honest. And the best antidote I have to those, to that cacophony of
13:42voices is to focus on my kids. I've got an eight-year-old and a five-year-old and I just switch
13:46modes. I've got my on work mode and then I've got my on family mode. And if I can focus on my kids,
13:52they become by far and away the most important thing. And the other stuff can fade into the background.
13:56Fantastic. Uh, what's something that most people love, but you secretly can't stand?
14:06Oh, this is a lightning round. I mean, I've got so many answers.
14:12Um,
14:12You can give multiple answers.
14:14I'm really bad at some of these things. So like, uh, from the, from my brain,
14:20um, something that most people love that I really can't stand mushrooms. I know that's,
14:28uh, maybe, maybe that's a divisive one. Maybe most people don't, maybe that's 50, 50. Um,
14:34but in the lightning round context, the quickest thing I can come up with is I really can't stand
14:38mushrooms. I tried to trick myself into liking them knowing that people can do that and I failed.
14:43So no mushrooms for me. Are we talking about the, the fun mushrooms or the, uh, ones?
14:49No, the fun mushrooms. The fun mushrooms I like, of course.
14:54Fantastic. And as a, as a writer, what's your writing pet peeve? And I'm going to tee you up.
15:01I've done a lot of, uh, profile writing in my life and read a lot of profiles. And when someone
15:07interviews a celebrity and kicks it off by, you know, trying to make a big moment out of the way
15:13they, uh, order an iced tea, uh, uh, drives me crazy. What, what's, what's some things that drive
15:20you crazy? When anyone starts a story with, uh, summer or, uh, ice creams or, uh, motor vehicles,
15:29it's such a crush. And then you often see these crutches, like these ladders as people trying to
15:34like clear their throat before they get into the actual story and telling me, uh, what the story is
15:39about. I also see like in the last five to 10 years enter as well. I was like, blah, blah, blah,
15:44blah, blah, blah. You know what you need? Oh, you're like, you're feeling like this. And then that
15:48happens or, or there's this massive problem and nothing's going right. And then it's enter Superman,
15:55Superman starts. So, and like the, the like problem, problem, problem, enter solution,
15:59solution, solution model also drives me crazy. It's like, it's lazy. It's laziness cliche. And people
16:05have just, it's, you know, people have picked it up from other writers and, you know, at one,
16:09one time that seemed like a smart device and now it's overdone. I, I caught myself starting a
16:15sentence. The dictionary defines blah, blah, blah. No, what's become of me? Yes. And that's when you
16:23have to throw it in and like go back to like working on a farm. Okay. So we're now joined by
16:36Casey Lewis, creator of the hugely popular Substack After School. Welcome Casey. Thank you so much for
16:43having me, Dan. Great to talk to you, man. You are a extremely busy writer. We'll get into that in a
16:51second, but you've got nearly 80,000 subscribers on Substack. And before we get into the growth part
16:59of it, let's talk about the start. Like when did you, when did you get on Substack and how did it go
17:05kind of right out of the gate? Yeah. So I started about four and a half years ago. So it's taken me
17:10a while to get to almost 80 K. Uh, and what led me to start it? I've always been obsessed with youth
17:18trends. I've worked at teen Vogue and MTV in the past. I've worked at like traditional youth trend,
17:24you know, agencies. And I noted, I was working at New York mag at the time and I was noticing
17:29the cadence of these youth trends. And when I say youth, I'm talking about like Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
17:36The cadence was just crazy because of, you know, the adoption of Tik TOK and all these other social
17:42platforms. And so it felt like every day I was reading these pieces about, you know, cottage core
17:48or this new consumer app that everyone's using. And I was trying to commit them all to memory and
17:54failing because they were just so like, you know, they're just so many. And so I had this idea really
18:00for my own brain to start a newsletter. And what's funny is I felt like it would be a good daily
18:07newsletter because I was observing the cadence of these stories. Uh, but you know, having been a
18:13writer for a long time to commit yourself to a daily practice is a lot of pressure. Uh, so I wrote the
18:21newsletter without telling anyone for a month just to make sure that that was a good cadence for me
18:28and good for my brain, you know, because I think honestly, one of my best top pieces of advice for
18:34writers, sub stack or otherwise is set yourself up for success. Don't commit to anything that you
18:40can't, you know, uphold. And yeah, so that's the sort of the, how, how it started. Wow. Yeah,
18:47that's great. And I, and I wonder, uh, is that, uh, having that niche, I think a lot of people
18:53struggle with that question of like, all right, I know I want to write and I know I have thoughts
18:58about things, but like, what am I writing about? And, uh, do you think having that kind of like
19:04focus out of the gate really helped you as a writer, but also helped you build an audience
19:10for people who wanted that thing? Definitely. I think it really helps alleviate any mental blocks
19:17because when I'm, uh, when I'm reading a story, I think even if this isn't something that is about
19:23Gen Z, you know, what are the implications on youth culture in one way or the other? But I really
19:28approach everything with that lens, which helps, especially when I'm super busy working on different
19:32stories, things like that. It helps to have that very specific lens, you know, that I kind of apply
19:38to everything. And I think sometimes, you know, with these generalist writers, not to say that you
19:42shouldn't be a generalist writer, uh, but it helps for me to have that constraint built in. And you know,
19:48something else Dan is I have this pretty stringent format that I stick to. And that also allows me to
19:55do a daily newsletter because I just, I come into it, you know, it's not like a plug and play or anything,
20:02but at least some things are consistent day to day, which really helps because if I was just
20:07approaching every day with a blank page, I don't think I would be able to do a daily newsletter.
20:14Yeah. So let's talk about that, that cadence that, uh, for, for anyone who hasn't tried to write
20:20something every single day, it is not easy. Um, so, uh, so kudos to you for not just doing it,
20:28but doing it so well. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, just what your process is like,
20:34like what, what's your, what's your daily schedule like for, for writing this thing?
20:39So it, it's kind of changed a bit over the four and a half years as I've gotten, you know, early on,
20:45I spent a ton of time on Twitter. Now I spend more time on Tik TOK. Uh, that gives me a lot more,
20:51uh, sense of what's happening, what, you know, cause the reality is a lot of young people aren't
20:56spending time on Twitter these days. Uh, I, I also, you know, I have about a hundred publications
21:02that I'm skimming headlines for regularly just to see, but also just in my like daily, you know,
21:08reading, I read a lot of newsletters. Um, and I'm just constantly grabbing paragraphs or headlines
21:14or things that I want to revisit. I, you know, even currently while talking to you, I have about,
21:19you know, 40 tabs open in front of me. Um, hopefully that's not impacting our, our connection here,
21:25but so I, my brain has always been a bit, uh, you know, I love to like jump from one thing to
21:33another. And I will say also my first job out of college was at one of my first jobs out of college
21:38was at teen Vogue and I was on the entertainment beat at that point. And so I was constantly looking
21:44for an entertainment adjacent headlines that would appeal to young people. And so I got really used to
21:49this practice of scouring the internet for tidbits. And so I think that, uh, doing that from such
21:55a young age, I mean, we're talking, you know, that was 2010 and now it's 2020 high. So it's really
22:01like a, it's built in, you know, for me. Um, but I think there's many, many ways to approach it.
22:06That's just what works for my brain. Well, I would just say, tell you that in 1998, I worked for a,
22:13uh, magazine called twist magazine, twist the teen magazine, teen magazine. That's right.
22:21I have some back here. Do you really? Well, you may find my name or my, my alter ego, uh, was named
22:30Rick blazer. That was my, that is incredible for me. Uh, yes. And it was actually the editor in chief
22:38was my, uh, lovely wife, Lisa Lombardi. Uh, that's where we met. Wow. That was like the golden age of
22:45teen magazines. And honestly, like growing up reading those teen magazines, I subscribed to all of them,
22:50you know, Cosmo girl, L girl, teen, teen, teen people, you know, there were just so many at one
22:55point. And that's what kind of kickstarted my obsession with youth culture. That's why I went
22:59to journalism school. That's why I moved to New York. So teen magazines really did shape me as a
23:04person. Well, if I had any part in that, uh, you're welcome. You're welcome. Um, thank your wife for me
23:10too. I will. I will for sure. Um, so can you talk a little bit about, so you have, uh, a newsletter that,
23:19uh, is a free and then you have one part behind the paywall. Can you talk about how you set that
23:25up, uh, and how you came to that decision that that was the best way to do it? Absolutely. So
23:31starting the newsletter, it was free. I, you know, I really did start it for myself genuinely,
23:35but then started to see, you know, the beauty of doing an online newsletter is you're seeing every
23:41person that signs up. And so in the early days, I was really encouraged to continue going because I
23:48would see people from Nike or, you know, big companies and I would Google each and every
23:52one of them and think like, Oh man, if a CMO from this company is signing up, like I'm onto something
23:58here. And so I no longer do that, but it really did help me in those early days. And I eventually,
24:05I think it was about six months in is when I will say the subsac team encouraged me to turn on paid.
24:12Um, I don't think I would have done it without their encouragement, but, uh, tried it. And at that
24:18point I was sending four free a week and one paid, which is still the cadence four and a half years
24:25later. Uh, I don't think that that is for everyone. And I don't think that that is really, I don't think
24:31everyone needs to do that, but I also don't think like that's right for everyone. Um, that's a lot of
24:37content. And sometimes I feel like it's too much content for people to consume, but it's right for
24:43my brain to process, if that makes sense because so much is happening every day. So, so how did you,
24:49how do you, um, for, for the, the, the one that's behind the paywall, like, how do you differentiate
24:55that in a way? And how do you communicate that to the people who are getting the free version?
24:59The weekly or the, sorry, excuse the daily version for free is, is, you know, I adhere to a very
25:07strict format. It's a very headline focused. It's, this is what happened today. It has some
25:12commentary, but not a ton. And I try to keep it very skimmable thinking that people are reading it
25:18on their way to work or on their lunch break. Uh, the weekend is, I would say much more sprawling.
25:24So it's sometimes 4,000, 5,000 words, which I can tell you because of subsex feature is about like
25:3125 minutes to read. So I'm asking a lot of those people, but I have, you know, thought about,
25:36is this too long? Like, do I need to tone it down? And then, you know, when I pose that question to my
25:42readers, I always have people that are like, no, we love how like rambly it is. Um, so, so it's just
25:48the one for paid is, is much longer. I usually do, you know, a more meandering blog style post or like
25:55a little bit more of a deep dive into something. And then it's really, um, you know, everything that
26:00happened this week in, you know, youth culture. That's great. Uh, so let's talk a little bit about,
26:07uh, how you've, how you've grown your audience. Um, you know, when you mentioned, uh, TikTok and
26:13things like that, it made me wonder, have you had any success sort of, you know, let's just say
26:20Facebook, Hey, I wrote a new thing on Substack and you put it on Facebook or do you find that
26:25cross platform doesn't work or does it, you know, I, I post pretty consistently a couple of times a
26:33week on LinkedIn and Instagram, primarily Instagram stories. And I find that that is, you know, I do see
26:41some engagement from that, but TikTok has been a very interesting unlock in terms of getting
26:49subscribers. I did not think that there was any chance I would see signups to a newsletter from a
26:56platform like TikTok, but I've had a number of TikToks about youth culture. Now, whenever I try and do a
27:05TikTok, that's like recapping a newsletter kind of straight, you know, this is what I talked about
27:10today that never, that is never a success. It's only when I'm going deep on a topic and feel really,
27:17you know, when it's something that I'm like, I've got to talk to someone about this. And then I do see
27:22a lot of conversion to, to Substack, which I don't think many people talk about or, or would expect
27:28that I think, especially because like TikTok did not come naturally to me. I'm a millennial. I'm not used
27:34to recording myself like that, but I pushed myself and I'm glad that I did. And, and what about within
27:41Substack? Are you, you're, I see that you are big on notes. Are you taking advantage of the video
27:48capabilities? Yeah, I, I've had a lot of fun playing around with live video. I haven't done it
27:55consistently, or I haven't adhered to any sort of schedule with that, but I've gone live with a couple
28:00of friends who are on Substack as well. And it's always a lot of fun. And you do see like some
28:06cross, you know, pollination, if you will. Um, I had my last live was with one of my former Teen Vogue
28:12colleagues who I hadn't talked to in 10 or 15 years. And so that was a lot of fun. And so those kind of,
28:19the nice thing about the Substack live tool is like, it feels low stakes. You're just chatting with a
28:24friend. Uh, so that's been a lot of fun. And I do find notes to be, you know, as I've used Twitter
28:31less and less in the last year or two, I found that notes is a nice, it's, it's a nice reprieve.
28:37And as a, as a bonus, it does tend to boost the newsletter. Great. So for someone who is starting
28:45out on Substack or maybe, maybe someone like me who has a Substack, but, uh, is not as active as they
28:53should be. Can you give us a couple of, uh, a homework a little bit like, Hey, here's some
29:00things you could do to kind of get you on a good track. So my, my top piece of advice, I think is
29:05also the simplest in theory. And that is to, to be consistent, let your subscribers know when to
29:13expect something from you and stay true to that. And I think, I mean, you do this with podcasts too,
29:19where it's like, if someone expects a new episode on a certain day at a certain time, it really helps
29:25strengthen the relationship to show up at that time on that day. And I've seen so many, you know,
29:31even friends announce on Substack notes, like I'm launching a Substack, um, expect weekly missives
29:39from me on XYZ. And then I'll be thinking like months later, did she ever end up launching? And I'll
29:45look it up and she did it, you know? And so I think I, and I totally understand, like, especially
29:50like you get it, Dan, like as a creative person, like you always have, you, you have millions of
29:55ideas and some of them work and some of them don't, but I think, you know, kind of holding yourself to
30:01that, you know, whether it is twice a month is, is really valuable. Um, as much as you can. Uh, I also
30:09think, you know, I am laser focused on one topic. I don't think you have to be, but I do think it
30:15helps to be pretty niche when it comes to Substack, just because, you know, there's a lot of people on
30:21the platform now. And so if you have a very specific interest, I think that that will really go
30:28far. Um, I think a lot of people like to nerd out on Substack in a good way. It kind of reminds me of
30:33the early days of blog roles and things like that. Yeah, absolutely. No, I agree. And I, I have to say,
30:40you know, there, there's obviously different types of people on there, but generally speaking,
30:46I feel like it's a much more civilized universe than some of the other platforms.
30:51Yes. Generally speaking, every once in a while, there will be some riffraff on notes, but
30:55that's the internet, right? Exactly. Um, so let's, uh, let's ask you a couple of speed round
31:05questions if you feel like you're up for it. Yeah. Uh, the first one is I asked, uh, uh, Hamish
31:11and I'm curious to your, uh, answer here. Uh, what is the writer cliche that you cannot stand?
31:19I mean, I've been in media for a long time. I, I, and I've been an editor at times. I, I
31:29find, I find that any sort of cliched writing really grinds my gears to use a cliche. Um,
31:39but I find that with the, you know, the adoption of chat GPT, a lot of these phrases become more
31:46like they're just unavoidable. And so it's really hard, you know, uh, Substack is not the only,
31:53uh, platform where there's a lot of chat, you know, chat GPT slop, but you know, anytime someone
31:58includes a sentence that I'm like, you did not write that. Um, there's like a couple of sentence
32:04structures in particular. It's like, it's not slop. It's AI masterpiece. Like that kind of like cadence,
32:12um, is really, uh, I don't know if that's what you're looking for here, but that is a
32:18modern day writer cliche that is, you know, it just drives me crazy.
32:21That, that is a perfectly acceptable answer. And maybe just to go on that a little bit,
32:27I would just say, if you want to write a newsletter, part of that is writing it. And if
32:33you're asking, uh, AI to actually write it for you, then I don't know, maybe you shouldn't be writing
32:38a newsletter. Exactly. Create, start a TikTok instead. Yeah. Talk to the camera.
32:46Um, well, this is, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, from our, our joint past, but
32:53Backstreet Boys reunion, NSYNC reunion happening on the same night. Where do you,
32:59which tickets are you grabbing? This is the easiest question for me. I've been a Backstreet Boys girl
33:04forever. I've never been an NSYNC fan. I'm not a Justin Timberlake girl. Uh, I don't have to think
33:10for a second about which one I'm going for. Fantastic. Uh, and then, and then, uh, as someone
33:18who, uh, you know, is lives and breathes in this ecosystem of opinions and thoughts and people writing,
33:26how do you turn your brain off? I, I'm a big runner. I, I also walk my, I have a dog that
33:36needs a lot of walking. So, and he also needs full focus. So it's not like I can be scrolling
33:42and walking him. And that really, both of those things really help because they get
33:46me to stop scrolling. Otherwise I'm pretty much scrolling for the better part of the day. I will
33:53say also going to the beach is great because the bright sun doesn't allow you to scroll. So these
33:59like forcing functions are good for me. So physical deterrence. Exactly. Exactly. I spoke to someone,
34:09uh, professional wrestler who, uh, Chelsea Green, who said she not, doesn't just delete the app off
34:16her phone. She has somebody change the password and not tell her what the password is. That's how,
34:22that's how deep she goes. Wow. Well, so, uh, we, so after school, uh, that's the best place for
34:34people to, to sign up, tell them, uh, we've talked about it, but tell them, are there any other places
34:40to look for you on social to see what you're up to? Yeah. I'm, I'm Casey Morrow Lewis, M O R R O W
34:46on a lot of channels. If they search Casey Lewis, they'll probably find me. Excellent. Great. All
34:52right. Well, thank you so much. Such great information. I'm going to definitely, uh, use
34:57some of that for sure. Uh, and thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Dan. This was fun.
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