- 4 months ago
This Special Report examines Delhi's severe air pollution crisis following Diwali, featuring a debate with Senior Advocate Siddharth Luthra, former Delhi Police DCP L.N. Rao, pediatrician Dr. Sanjeev Bagai, and environmentalist Bhavreen Kandari. Dr. Sanjeev Bagai stated, 'my faith and practicing religion should not be a public health hazard for the community at large'. The discussion scrutinises the blatant violation of the Supreme Court's order, which permitted green crackers only within a specific time window. It explores the comprehensive failure of enforcement agencies to prevent the sale of banned firecrackers and enforce the deadline, questioning whether the police lacked the will or capacity. The panelists delve into the contentious issues of 'green crackers', the persistent problem of stubble burning, citizen accountability, and the grave long-term health consequences of the 'air apocalypse', including a potential 11-year reduction in the lifespan of Delhi residents.
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00:00Let's raise therefore the big questions now. Who is accountable for what can only be described
00:06as Delhi's air apocalypse or indeed the country's air apocalypse after Diwali? Was the Supreme
00:14Court cracker order unfeasible to begin with that you will only have a deadline of 8 p.m. to 10
00:19p.m. to burst crackers? Pollution politics clouding the real issues once again? Faith versus the right
00:25to breathe? Is there a middle path possible? I'm keeping the politicians away and let's
00:30turn to people who are citizens who are concerned. Siddharth Luthra, Senior Advocate Supreme Court
00:36joins me. Helen Rao, former DCP Delhi Police. Professor Dr. Sanjeev Bagai, Chairman Nephron
00:43Clinic and a leading pediatrician joins me. And Bhavreen Gandhari, environmentalist and
00:48member of Warrior Bombs. I appreciate you joining us. I want to turn to you Mr. Luthra first
00:52because you've tweeted about it and we've also seen others raising their voice that
00:56the Supreme Court in a way seemed to put the right to breathe below the right to celebrate
01:03Diwali. So religious freedom, if I may use the word, was preferred over the right to breathe.
01:10Do you believe the Supreme Court got it horribly wrong by lifting the ban in the first place?
01:15Look, the order has been passed. The question is we can't go beyond the order or recall. Somebody
01:20should have recalled the order if they wanted, if they had an objection. But once the order
01:24is passed, the issue is really who has to enforce the order? A, the sales have to be controlled
01:30that there should only be green crackers sold. And B, the police in Delhi, which comes under
01:36the centre, has to ensure that there is no sales of non-green crackers and B, that there
01:44is control on the time period. I must tell you, I found that on Saturday till one day prior
01:51to Diwali, that's on Sunday, there were, at least in the areas in southern, South Delhi,
01:56in Ring Road, I found there were lesser crackers, almost none. It is only when we, on Diwali
02:04day, that things went completely out of gear. In fact, I remember taking a walk on, yes, it
02:12was Sunday night, after dinner, and there was rarely anybody, you know, bursting crackers.
02:20But the tragedy is, courts will pass orders. It is the enforcement agencies which have to
02:28be done. I heard Mr. Sirsa. Mr. Sirsa has a limitation because Delhi police does not come
02:32under Mr. Sirsa. The second aspect of the matter is that there is also a Parali problem.
02:38We have not been able to, the governments, they can work on GST. And there's a GST council,
02:45they can get their GST right because that's commerce. But governments in North India, whether
02:50it be Delhi, Haryana, UP, Punjab, have not been able to address the Parali problem in the
02:57last decade or so. We were hopeful that after the Delhi government change, there was a lot
03:02of blame, blame, blame that is God. There will be a change today. But the result is there
03:06for all to see.
03:07So you're in a saying, then forget the court order, let's talk about enforcement. Let me
03:16come to you, Mr. Rao, as a former DCP Delhi police. The truth of the matter is, we were
03:21told that there would be patrol teams comprising police and pollution control board officials
03:27going from markets to market, ensuring that only green crackers were being sold. The truth
03:32of the matter is, A, there has been a complete violation of the basic Supreme Court order
03:38on deadlines for when crackers could be burst. And in many cases, we are told that many highly
03:44polluting varieties, rockets, bombs were on display without even attempting a green label
03:49and they were being sold. So where is the enforcement? This is the point that many of us feared
03:54would happen, that the police is incapable or has no, or is simply not willing. The political
04:02will is missing to enforce the Supreme Court's order. Do you agree?
04:07Good evening, Rajip and to your all co-panelists and to US. Happy Diwali to everyone. Definitely
04:14there was an order from the Honorable Supreme Court that firecrackers can be busted during
04:20certain time period. And there was also one important thing is that the green crackers will
04:28be identified by some QR code. But this was the problem. And the Delhi police, I think, might
04:36have tried their best to implement that order of this Honorable Supreme Court. But the problem,
04:40I could pursue, Parmin, that number one... Sir, there were fake QR codes being used. Delhi
04:47police cannot go from market to market. You know and I know. There were fake QR codes being used.
04:52The entire system collapsed. I am coming to that, Rajip. Because the QR codes were unable to be
05:00identified. And in garb of that order of the Honorable Supreme Court, the people also tried to bust
05:06the non-green crackers also. And this was the problem. And Delhi police tried their best. But it's a very
05:14vast city. And this Delhi police keeping in view the strength of Delhi police. They cannot go any who can
05:21took a corner of that city. And that's why the problem that it might be not implemented in a full sense,
05:29this order of the Supreme Court. And another period was also that the time frame that the people also
05:34exceeded the time limit also. That it is also the persons who the people of Delhi should also be disciplined.
05:43You are making an important point. I take your point. I take your point. People of Delhi, Bhavrit
05:49Kandari, you are an environmentalist activist. The fact is, if the people do not want to comply,
05:55if the people believe it is their fundamental right to bust crackers, what can any court, any
06:00environmental activist or the police do? People have decided we are not going to listen to what even
06:06courts say. This is our fundamental right under article 25 to freedom of religion. We can celebrate
06:13Diwali the way we want. Rajdeep, sorry, I wouldn't say that. It's citizens will follow the leaders,
06:22you know, or the law or your highest court. Now, we saw this was a blatant defiance of the Supreme Court's
06:31order. And it's not the first time. And this is kind of becoming a, I shouldn't even say a seasonal,
06:36it's becoming a norm. And which is very worrying. So I'd like to not ignore what you were saying
06:42initially with Mr. Lutra, that the Supreme Court had repeatedly, it's held that the right to clean air
06:47is part of right to life under article 21. And when they actually allow these green,
06:55so-called green crackers, you know, which will emit PM, et cetera, metals, et cetera, they compromised
07:01that right. And the court, same, the highest court had themselves noted in earlier hearings,
07:08which is in 2021 and 2023, that these so-called green crackers were neither enforceable and nor
07:15less harmful or, you know, all the details of fake QR codes, et cetera, all that was noted. So obviously,
07:22they went steps back. And that is the message. Now, when you say green crackers itself,
07:28the Supreme Court says they struck a balance. It's misleading. The Supreme Court claims they tried to,
07:34ma'am, the Supreme Court claims they tried to strike a balance between environmental protection or
07:39between the right to breathe and the right to celebrate. You don't agree with that. How can it be?
07:43Exactly. Obviously, it doesn't, you know, what you're saying, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely not,
07:50it's balanced. There is, you are actually saying that, okay, you know, you can poison your children,
07:58you know, as compared to, you can, you know, celebration or livelihood or whatever, you know,
08:04so, so it's, it's, it's defined its own orders and its own, you know, thoughts for whatever reason.
08:12And that is what, see, when the messages start the misleading, a green, first of all, a green
08:16cracker, it's a misleading term. So even a simple family who probably thought that they're doing good
08:22to the environment, they bought green. So if they had to say burst one box of crackers, now they bought three.
08:28And, you know, this is how the wrong narratives are set. And so, so the leaders have to lead,
08:35you know, citizens will always follow. No, we did not wear a seatbelt for 20 years till the
08:40Motor Vehicle Act was there, but we were made to do it. So you are, you have to, you know, lead,
08:46you will have to say the right things, you will have to, you know, implement them, you have to be...
08:51So you're blaming, you're blaming the leadership, you're blaming the leadership for failing to
08:57implement the Supreme Court orders. Dr. Dr. Sanjeev Bagai, as a leading doctor, are we exaggerating
09:03the threat that these AQI levels pose to people or are they realistic in your view? I've seen your
09:09tweets also claiming that what we are seeing will be extremely hazardous to thousands and thousands
09:15of children in particular. Is that an exaggeration given that this is those in favor of the, of
09:21bursting crackers say it's only one day. Delhi's weather right across the year is terrible.
09:27Why only single out Diwali, they say? Good evening, everyone. Good evening, Rajdeep. Good to see you.
09:34These are all published research data which are in Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, British
09:39Medical Journal, JAMA, which are India-centric. These publications are peer-reviewed and they have
09:45been centered around Delhi and 10 to 18 major cities in India. So this is not international data.
09:51Even a 10-mark increase in PM2.5 gives a 200% increase in the incidence of deaths because of
10:01myocardial infarction and strokes. We know that there is an 11-year loss of lifespan of people living in
10:08Delhi. We also know just in four months of living in Delhi in winter, exposed to this AQI and PM2.5 and
10:16PM5 and 10, it is equivalent to 9,000 cigarettes a human being smokes without touching a cigarette.
10:24We also know that it involves 20 major organs including cancers, including diabetes, obesity,
10:30respiratory distress problems, asthma, brain disorders, dementia. It involves the pregnancies,
10:37pregnant ladies are now being born with stillbirths, with premature deliveries and fetuses with brain
10:43atrophy, published data with absent kidneys, published data. So these all influences of pollution
10:51is well documented. The issue really is very quickly, Rajdeep, our entire focus should not be on PM2.5.
10:58This is a hallowed criminal, but the fact is we are overlooking aspects which are equally dangerous,
11:03like black carbon, carbon monoxide, NOx, SOx, volatile organic compounds, hydrofluorocarbons,
11:10and particulate matter of plastic, which we call micro nanoplastic, which is the highest incidence
11:16causing infertility and cancers. We also know there is a published study to show that there is an
11:22underestimation of PM2.5 and AQI in India, in Delhi, by 20 to 25 percent by aerodynamic studies,
11:30because of the hydrophobic nature of the particles. That means the particles are much more,
11:34but the counting is less. We also know that the relative humidity and temperature
11:38impacts this reading. That means the actual reading is a lot more. Pollution will kill us now and will
11:45continue to damage- No, but that's all across the year. Dr. Bhagai, Dr. Bhagai, how will you- No, no, Dr. Bhagai,
11:51how will you respond to those who will say, look, many of these issues concerning Delhi, when I look at
11:55construction dust, for example, when I look at issues like stubble burning, why only blame,
12:01they say, Diwali? They say, this is once in the year. We should be allowed our night of enjoyment.
12:07Therefore, do not single out Diwali crackers for the environment, for the effects it has on public health.
12:15What will your response as a doctor be to those who speak that language? Yeah, I'm a strong Hindu.
12:21I am very, very proud of my religion. I respect all other religions, but my faith and practicing
12:26religion should not be a public health hazard for the community at large. Although Diwali crackers
12:32are burst at one night, and let me tell you, there was gross violations across the city. There were
12:36crackers, at least in South Delhi, being hurt till 4, 4.30 early morning, and none of them were green.
12:41All of them had fake stickers, but the issue really is that this smoke and particulate matter
12:46circulates and floats as sediments in the air for weeks after that. 100% degrade that the
12:52Parali is killing us, the burning of the fire fires is hurting us, road dust, construction,
12:58and various other emission norms of vehicles. But really, I think we as citizens have to take a call
13:03that we need to save our next generation. Last very quick point is pollution is 24 by 7, 12 months.
13:10We need to address this issue all 12 months with equal verbal.
13:20Okay, I want to bring in Siddharth Lutra at this point. Siddharth Lutra, purely now from a legal
13:25perspective, Supreme Court passes an order, fixes certain timelines within which you can burst crackers.
13:30As we've seen, crackers were burst late into the night, midnight and beyond.
13:34Who is in contempt of court? The citizens who burst the cracker, the enforcement agencies like the
13:41police that failed to comply with it or the Delhi government that gave various assurances to the
13:46Supreme Court? Let's be very clear. Can I as a citizen who was till midnight listening to the
13:52sound of crackers go to the Supreme Court tomorrow and say your orders have been violated, all these
13:57agencies are in violation contempt of court? I think it is important for citizens to raise, to go to
14:04the court and say there is a breach of the order. There's a contempt. The contempt is at three levels.
14:09It is by the individual who continues to do it post the night. And I'm sure I'm hopeful that the police
14:14have registered some fires. Secondly, Mr. Sirsa left us before we could get a word with him. He's in charge
14:21of pollution. What worries people doing? When a construction site goes up, pollution during the
14:28lockdown period, during grab, on every construction site, people reach from the pollution department.
14:34What were they doing last evening? The third issue is that if any citizen, let us say you,
14:42approach the court, I am hopeful that the court will act on this blatant breach of the order and
14:49contempt. It is a punishable offence. Apart from that, it is contempt. And I think it's time that
14:55somebody asked, the reason is this. This is an annual problem. The fact is, Diwali is the festival
15:02of lights. People say it's a festival of crackers. All right. The court allows you two hours.
15:07What is the just, I mean, we had Mr. Sirsa saying mischievous people were doing it, but I need to ask him,
15:12what were your officers doing? Were they sleeping? Where were they?
15:18Sir, that's the question. You know, that's the question, Mr. Rao, that Siddharth Ruthra is posing.
15:27Yeah, go ahead. Complete. Yes. The point is this, Rajdeep. Complete Siddharth.
15:33People, if there is a rule or regulation or a court order and people choose to breach it,
15:38the under the law, it's very clear under the constitution, it is the agencies of government
15:43who have to ensure compliance with the orders of the court. The court does not have a mechanism to
15:48get it enforced. Its government is to comply with it. And this is a case where we have a problem where
15:57there is non-compliance and therefore there needs to be action and definitely introspection for the next year and every year.
16:05But I'm clear that, but you're clear, it is contempt of court, right?
16:13It is contempt and it is an offense. It is a punishable offense as also contempt because post the Supreme Court order,
16:20there was a declaration by the authorities, I believe by the police to say that this is the order.
16:25Please comply with it. No crackers beyond these two hours, nothing other than green crackers.
16:29And on this business regarding the holograms, I can tell you, it's so easy to do it across the country.
16:35People have done it. But the point is, this will have to be done in advance today to prepare for next year.
16:42If you do it at the last minute, obviously there are going to be problems.
16:45Okay. Mr. Rao, I haven't seen a single case where a serious FIR has been filed against those
16:54who have violated the law. Instead, as we saw with the minister, he's blaming Aham Atmi Party,
16:59government for what's happening in Punjab. And we are seeing this across cities, you know,
17:03it's happening in Mumbai. It's happening. Every city is allowing crackers to be burst late into the night
17:09and the police seems to be helpless. Please explain why is the police helpless? I can understand
17:14it's difficult to track down every green cracker. Why can't the police file FRs against those
17:19who are bursting crackers at midnight? Rajiv, I fully agree with Siddharth Lutra Ji.
17:25And I agree that some affairs could have been registered. I have to check from Delhi police
17:31whether they have registered FIR or not. I think definitely some affairs have been registered
17:36against the violators of this Order of the Honorable Supreme Court. No, why some? There should have been
17:41each and every... No, no, sir. Why some? Why some? There should have been hundreds of FIRs registered
17:46and put some people in jail. The person who have been caught red-handed
17:50by doing all this contravention of the order, definitely the affair could have been done,
17:55should have been registered against them. But the person who could not be traced or could not be
18:01reached by the police and they might have been cracked, busted the crackers and then ran away.
18:08That may be the problem. But still, the police might have registered against them also and the case may
18:13be investigated and will be investigated. And on the point of Contamorate Court, I fully...
18:18We haven't heard of any such cases where any... We haven't heard of any such cases. But Bhavreen Kandari,
18:25will environmental activists now take it up in the Supreme Court? Will you all walk the talk?
18:30Are you all going to go to the Supreme Court tomorrow morning and say there was a violation of the
18:34court order? Radhi, we'd love to. See, activist is the name. We are all citizens. We are desperate
18:42mothers. As you know, we are mothers, parents. And that's exactly what we've been encouraging.
18:48That do not write on what... Please make a police complaint. At least the complaint
18:53should go and then we get to the next steps. And that's not this year. It's been happening for years now.
18:58Because there are these heartbreaking messages of what's happening to toddlers and babies and how
19:04pregnant women are worried because somebody has a C-section today. And she was asking whether,
19:09you know, she can get airtight or fire into the hospital, those kind of things. So, it's absolutely,
19:15you know, unforgivable. And when lots of crackers are burst openly, despite...
19:21You're making a good point that this... You're making a good point that it is the responsibility of
19:28citizens. The final word... Sanjeeb Bhagai, final word from you. Do you believe that there is
19:37something inherently wrong in the way? Why is it the right to breathe not seen as an important
19:42fundamental right? I speak to people and they say this is an elite preoccupation.
19:46Janta jo hai na, wo cracker bajana chata hai. Wo, you know, they want fatakas. This is a source of
19:52entertainment. What will you tell them? Those who say this is only the elites are interested in air,
19:57in clean air, not the people. Aam Janta. Rajdeep, three quick points. I think the huge amount of public
20:03awareness needs to be continuously maintained all through the year. Point number two, there are cities
20:09internationally like New York or in Sydney, near Sydney Hubbard, they have fire shows. They have great shows,
20:15but it's in open air, not in clusters where packed residential colonies are there. We can identify
20:21this and have a grand celebration at a community level, but not within cooperative societies and
20:26closed neighborhoods which can hurt people's health. Point number three, I think we need a ministry of...
20:32And that should be governed with a task force which includes environmentalists, doctors and scientists.
20:37This is well beyond the scope of one particular state in isolation. Can't work in silos. We need a
20:45comprehensive plan so that at least next we breathe better.
20:52Okay, let me leave it there. It's a yearly ritual, maybe even a yearly ritual that we have these TV shows
20:58and maybe the media also needs now to have a concerted round-the-year
21:02campaign monitoring air quality, not just in the national capital but across the country. You can't
21:07build a Viksit Bharat without guaranteeing clean air to its citizens. That's the very least that you need
21:13to do. I appreciate all my panelists joining me on the show tonight.
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