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In a shocking twist in the IPS officer Y Puran Kumar death case, now a Haryana cop posted with the Cyber Cell in Rohtak allegedly died by suicide on Tuesday.
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00:00Is caste discrimination in services a reality, as was alleged by the first officer who committed suicide?
00:07Is this about corruption and therefore corruption being hidden under the guise of caste bias?
00:14What is really the truth behind these police suicides?
00:17I'm joined by Rajesh Jogpal, he's a former IAS officer from Haryana, comes from the Dalit community.
00:24Milind Awad is a caste studies and Dalit rights expert at JNU.
00:30Shashi Khan, former DGP Punjab and Yashu Vardhan Azad, former IPS officer.
00:35Appreciate all of you joining us.
00:37I want to come to you, Yashu Vardhan Azad, first.
00:40What do you make out of this case?
00:41Two policemen committing suicide in a space of a week?
00:48Does it suggest that there is some foul play, conspiracy theories, particularly a second ASI committing suicide while he was allegedly investigating corruption?
01:00Well, two things are clear.
01:03One, that corruption is absolutely rampant.
01:07And there are so many things which involve corruption.
01:10And secondly, what has happened is not really a great conspiracy, but straight facts.
01:18Number one, it's true that businesses in Haryana and in Punjab, for that matter, are threatened very, very seriously by the local goons, by even Lawrence Bishnoi gang.
01:29And that was the reason why one of the liquor merchants had gone to the IG seeking protection.
01:39Now, the IG's PS, the IG's gunman, was booked in a case for extortion when he asked for a monthly remuneration in the name of the IG.
01:53Now, this is a fact that sixth, the FIR was registered and seventh, unfortunately, the suicide took place and eighth, the complaint was lodged.
02:04Now, the second thing is that it's extremely unfortunate that this has happened to a Dalit officer.
02:10But also, it may be said that in his complaint, he has, you know, arraigned not only these two, but there are 13 people.
02:21Nine of them are serving officers and four of them are retired IAS and IPS officers.
02:27So, in the case of the IBS officer, I think there should have been an inquiry because the main thing which has been alleged for registering a case against the DGP and the SP is that the officer who died was harassed mentally and the case registered is false.
02:50Now, in that case, obviously, either the matter should go to the court or there should be a high-level inquiry conducted and I don't think there was any need to remove them.
03:01That's number one.
03:03And number two, in the other case of the ASI is extremely serious because he has alleged a lot of corruption and that is one thing which is rampant and which needs to be looked into separately.
03:18So, we are looking at two angles, one is corruption, one is allegations of harassment on the basis of caste.
03:29Shashi Khan, taking off from what Yashu Mardin Azad said, are police officers in states like Haryana engaged in extortion?
03:37Just as gangsters may be extorting from businessmen, are policemen also engaged in alleged extortion in return for protection that the police will provide against the gangs?
03:52And was this case somewhere tied into that?
03:54Is it a simple case of caste discrimination or is there a corruption angle that needs to be fully investigated?
04:01Well, I partly agree with Yashu.
04:05It needs to be investigated.
04:07Let me tell you very clearly, talking of corruption, involvement of officers, it doesn't pertain only to Punjab or Haryana.
04:14That's the true story all over.
04:17Officers, they do, they indulge in all sorts of corruption and so does the lower persons who are attached with them.
04:24In this case, the guy who has committed suicide, young ASI, etc.
04:30Normally, the procedure is that they are the persons who do it.
04:34And once again, talking of Haryana, it is not only casteism there in most of the states, including Haryana, Pandya, and elsewhere.
04:43It is also the state you belong to.
04:46Caste is one thing and state you belong to.
04:48Outsiders are not treated well in most of the states.
04:54They say in the IAS, IPS, all these services, always we call it insider versus outsider.
05:01So this is the situation.
05:03And once again, I think the Haryana government has showed that it is heading towards total incompetency.
05:10In the very first instance, they should order a high-level inquiry by a central agency because this was 100% decision was to cover.
05:20And if you take action against all the persons, 16, 17, and whosoever is involved, action has to be taken.
05:26What does it mean?
05:27What would be the repercussion in the bureaucracy, whether it's police or IAS or whatever it is?
05:32Haryana government needs to ensure that straightforward investigation, preferably by a central agency, so that there is no allegation.
05:41And once again, yes, caste, insider, outsider, all these things hurt.
05:47And I'm sure, I think, Yesho, who is from Bihar cadre, he's all right.
05:51I'm an outsider.
05:52I suffered this thing.
05:53The persons are right.
05:54You're saying there is an insider-outsider divide.
06:01So we have a caste divide.
06:02We have an insider-outsider divide.
06:04And we are also talking of possible corruption and policemen engaged in possible extortion or protection money being given through businessmen.
06:13Rajesh Jogpal, you're a former IAS officer.
06:16And I'm told that you yourself have claimed that you've suffered from discrimination because you come from the Dalit community.
06:22Do you want to explain what exactly do you see this case to be?
06:27Is it a simple case of an officer committing suicide, senior officer alleging harassment and discrimination by his seniors who he accuses, IS and IPS officers of torturing him?
06:38Or was that a cover for possible corruption that he was engaged in?
06:43What's your sense?
06:47Rajesh Jogpal, first of all, I want to pay my regards to both the police officers who died, who committed suicide.
06:54First of all, let me just put it that the very fact that FI is registered and the judicial process takes time.
07:01Both his officers did not have enough faith.
07:03And because the society has perceived it as stigmatic, caste is the second factor.
07:08He has been, you know, fighting the discrimination for four, five, six years.
07:12But somehow both these officers lost faith in the process.
07:17And the police registration affair, it seems to be stigmatic.
07:22As Mr. Sanchi Kandai said, it's very, it happens in the government that you're outsider, insider and caste discrimination do take place.
07:29But these discriminations also offer us a challenge, you know, to do well.
07:34So, I have not personally faced very serious discrimination.
07:38No, but is the lack of faith, if I may ask you, is the lack of faith in the system such,
07:42is the lack of faith in the system such that people would be, would go to the extent of committing suicide?
07:49Right? These are, one is a senior IPS officer, one is an ASI.
07:53But the fact is, are we saying that the pressures on them are such that they would commit suicide?
08:00Yeah, it seems, it seems so, you know.
08:03Otherwise, why would one commit suicide?
08:05You know, the very fact that it was stigmatic, you know,
08:08they thought that they were going to jail and the court person would take a lot of time.
08:12There have been many instances in Haryana where previous ASI officers were tried and they got, you know,
08:18they were acquitted with honor and in the process they face jails, they process FIRs.
08:24So, the very fact that it's stigmatic and officers from Dalits, they are sensitive.
08:29So, sometimes, you know, certain things, you know, like postings are discretion, you know.
08:33Promotions are right.
08:34Sometimes, sometimes, they feel that.
08:36So, we need to address.
08:37Okay, let me, let me bring in, let me bring in Milind Awad, let, let me bring in Milind Awad at this point.
08:45Milind Awad, already the case has become hugely political.
08:48Rahul Gandhi goes to the house of the Dalit IPS officer who committed death by suicide and he says,
08:55no officer can be, who is from the Dalit community is safe.
09:00Now, we have an angle where possibly this officer was involved in corruption or extortion and therefore was trying to protect himself.
09:09Do we need to be very careful and sensitive in such cases before jumping the gun?
09:15I think FIR is in public domain and this is purely a case of caste atrocity.
09:25This is actually a case of moral corruption of caste society.
09:28So, I just want to extend my point that suicide of this IS officer reminds me Rohit Vemula's suicide where he says that my birth is fatal accident.
09:42So, suicide of Rohit Vemula, suicide of IIT students, denial of promotions in universities, denial of usual promotions in liberal government institutions
09:54shows that the massacre is a massacre and brutal atrocities are going on, but bloodless massacre is also going on there.
10:06So, this humiliation, this is caste humiliation and this caste humiliation shows that these are moral injuries which are done by the caste elites and those who possess caste...
10:21But Milind, you are saying this is caste atrocity but in a video message that Sandeep Lather, the ASI who committed suicide alleges that Puran Kumar was a corrupt cop who ended his life as he feared his alleged corruption would be exposed.
10:41So, are we not to look at the corruption angle at all?
10:44You are convinced this is a caste atrocity?
10:47I am convinced this is caste atrocity.
10:49It's something to do with caste humiliation.
10:51It's something to do with the caste stigma which is imposed on even if he became a IS officer, that stigma does not go away from him.
10:59So, this procedural inquiry will probably be able to say that what was the reason, but his FIR, his allegation, his denial of promotion, treatment to him in the usual service condition shows that his humiliation was not private, but rather it became public human.
11:26So, I am saying it is just not about this case, but overall if you take the example of various cases of Dalit suicide, whether IIT students or Rohit Bemula or this officer or there are various examples shows that the continuation of Dalit atrocities is seen in actual social reality.
11:50You are saying that there is in a sense, you are saying there is institutionalized caste injustice being done, caste discrimination.
12:01You don't agree with that, Yashavarda Nazan, you are shaking your head. You don't accept that in a service like the IPS, a Dalit officer who rises up, are you claiming is not discriminated against?
12:13No, not at all, not at all. I think once you have got into the services like the IS and IPS, no caste, no religion matters. It is a question of complete merit.
12:26And let me put some more facts on ground, Rajdeep. In the case of unfortunate death of Mr. Puran Kumar, it is clear that the case which was there was ironclad because his gunman was captured, he was tape recorded regarding the extortion.
12:47Now, that's one very important thing. The other thing which I want to tell you is that over the years, even when Mr. Puran Kumar had registered a case of complaint against his own commissioner, Singhal or other people, inquiries were interested.
13:03Inquiries were interested to Mr. Sandhu, who himself was a civil caste officer and inquiries were all done.
13:10The other thing which I want to tell you is some of the names there are people like Manoj Yadav or Shatruji who have an absolute flawless and fantastic record.
13:20I mean, you can't imagine that somebody would do anything to an IPS officer on ground of caste. We never thought in uniform that caste or religion would be of any consideration, especially from those people whose records are absolutely spotless.
13:37No, is that an idealistic? No, you're saying the records are absolutely spotless in a way. Therefore, you're calling for a central agency to investigate.
13:48Yes. I want you to respond, Milind, to what you're hearing because as a professor, as an activist, we are seeing the moment a Dalit IPS officer in this case has committed death by suicide, his suicide note claiming harassment.
14:02Here you've got a different story being put by Yashuwardhan Azad. He says the evidence shows that the gunman of this IPS officer, there is a tape recording of him involving extortion.
14:13So, there is a corruption angle. Can we only look at it from the lens of caste? Do we also, particularly now that a second officer has committed suicide claiming that the first officer was corrupt, do we not need a proper investigation before instantly claiming this is caste atrocity?
14:32Okay. So, basically, this investigation and procedural inquiry is one part. But as I said, that Puran Kumar's statement and his humiliation is reflected in his FIR. So, basically, those, I mean, we have had cases that president was also denied to enter in temple, right?
14:59A recent incident of Supreme Court judge was also, you know, had to face the humiliation. So, actually, the humiliation which we see in public domain, it's something to do with the, you know, stigma, which is in continuation.
15:16Now, this stigma is visible in irrationals through various kinds of caste atrocities. Now, this is also a case of caste stigma. So, someone, even if he or she become IS, IPS or become part of elite services, the stigma does not go away.
15:37And that particular officer is alienated. And that particular officer is alienated, is forced to, is forced to, you know, feel the humiliation which this particular officer was going through.
15:51You are saying he is forced, Milin, okay, Milin, I take your point, but I want to ask Rajesh Jogal. Rajesh Jogal, you've been a, Jogpal, you've been a former IS officer.
16:02I want an honest answer. The fact is, if there is corruption, then it doesn't matter whether you're a Dalit or Brahmin or any caste in this country. Do you agree?
16:10Or are you telling me that there is, that, that, that, that there is no corruption angle that should be investigated in this case at all now?
16:17No, that is, that exactly is the point of investigation. That's why, you know, I want a fair inquiry must be held.
16:24It must be held. But there are two things, you know, one is corruption angle, other is discrimination angle, no?
16:31Generally, discriminations do not happen at this level, but there is a consistent, you know, record in this case.
16:36So that needs to be investigated. What I am saying is, there should be a fair inquiry.
16:40Shashikant, is a fair inquiry possible? Is a fair inquiry possible given the stakes involved, given that we are hearing reports of IPS officers,
16:55no less being accused of extortion or protection, taking protection money. Do you believe a fair inquiry is at all possible in this polarized,
17:03surcharge political climate? Two points. Number one, as far as the institutionalized casteism is concerned,
17:12I don't think that exists. But yes, such incidents do come to notice. I have seen in my career,
17:18spanning almost four decades, that such things do come up off and on. It's very much there.
17:24But you can't say that it's institutionalized, number one. And secondly, yes, as far as the corruption thing is concerned,
17:30there needs to be an inquiry. I won't trust the Haryana police. And I think Haryana police should not take up this case
17:37because there are lots of aspersions and allegations are being labelled against them also.
17:42So why not give it to the central agency? Now, I'm sure that the central agency, under a competent officer,
17:47will certainly ensure that it's all absolutely clear. Thank you.
17:55I think that is very clear. I think I think we are in agreement on that. I'll give you 30 seconds,
18:00Yashio Vardhan, since you raised your hand. A quick comment is the only now answer a central agency
18:05without polarized politics entering. This cannot become a case simply of caste discrimination,
18:10but needs to be a case to investigate whether there is high level corruption in the Haryana police and dare I say the IPS.
18:17Well, let me say, Rajdeep, that the last issue you raised is a very, very critical issue.
18:23And that's why I don't think that even a central agency would do justice to this.
18:28And if you really want justice in this particular case, then it should be given to a retired IPS officer
18:36or an IS officer or anybody so that he's absolutely neutral because it is time to separate whether it's politics, whether it's caste or whether it's corruption.
18:49And I tell you, all these are so inextricably linked. And what we have seen in the incidents are they show the collusion of all these three.
18:59And therefore, it has to be with clarity that the inquiry goes to a man who's absolutely clean and neutral.
19:10Okay. On that note, I appreciate my guests joining me. As I said, caste, corruption and cops.
19:17Haryana has brought out some of India's senior side out and which is why we made it our top focus today.
19:25We expect at the very least a truly non-partisan inquiry to take place.
19:31That is the only way justice can be done in this case.
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