- 6 months ago
Well Enough: Episode 1 mindset and manifestation with Jonny Wilkinson and Estelle Bingham Source: The Independent
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00:00It's great to get yourself into a positive mindset okay but what we don't do with a positive mindset
00:06is we don't go into a toxic positive mindset which means that nothing exists apart from
00:12this thing that I'm toxically manifesting. The beginnings of that journey is just relaxation
00:17letting go permission to soften to find the beginnings of safety. What often happens with
00:24Instagram? It's the shortcut version and and that's why it gets a bad rap. If you control
00:30enjoyment it's not joy. Welcome to Well Enough the new podcast from The Independent that unpacks the
00:40weird world of wellness and answers the big health questions we're all asking. I'm your host Emily
00:45Lavinia and together with my guests we'll be investigating trends, myth-busting and making
00:50sense of the well-being boom. Today we're discussing mindfulness. We'll be talking about manifestation
00:55and asking whether changing your mindset can really change your life. I'm joined by two people who are
01:01experts in motivational thought. Johnny Wilkinson is a sporting legend, one of the best rugby players
01:07of all time. He's also an advocate and campaigner for positive mental health. He's also the founder
01:12of One Living, a gut health friendly brand and one of my personal favorites. Estelle Bingham is a
01:18metaphysical teacher, therapist and known as the heart whisperer. She's also on Speed Dell for your favorite
01:24celebrities in times of existential crisis. Her book, Manifest Your True Essence, is a toolkit for cutting
01:30through the noise, learning self-love and thinking about ways to change your mindset. Estelle, Johnny, thank you
01:35so much for joining me. Wonderful to be here. Yeah, it is, isn't it? Yeah. Thrilled to have you on the couch with us and
01:41let's get into mindfulness because this is one of those subjects where you open social media and the first thing you
01:47tend to see is someone talking about how they've shifted their mindset or what they're manifesting in
01:52life. And a lot of these themes seem like shiny new trends, but they're not really, are they? No, they're not
01:59actually. I mean, we know that they are, you know, mindfulness is an ancient practice and what it means
02:07to be mindful is actually just to bring yourself into the present moment and to recognize what's happening
02:14inside you, your emotions, your feelings, what the body is sensing without judgment. And that is,
02:23you know, a mindfulness practice that goes all the way back to Buddhism. I know that you've become a
02:28Buddhist recently. Well, yeah, I explored a lot of it. Yeah, definitely. I'm not per se a Buddhist,
02:34but yeah, for me, the mindfulness thing is, it's almost been a shift just from this really logical,
02:43physical way of looking at life. And it connects you to something greater, more magical, expansive, where there
02:51are true, infinite possibilities. Beginning of my journey was with things like Buddhism, quantum physics, and all
02:58these kinds of things, definitely. Fascinating. And I guess all of these ideas sound, they sound quite high
03:03minded, but they can be quite practical as well, can't they? So I suppose the big question is, how can becoming more
03:10aware of our thoughts actually help us with changes in our lives? Johnny, you've spoken in the past about how your
03:16mindset has not only transformed your mental health, but also your performance as an athlete. Were you always able to
03:22tap into that? Or was that something that you discovered?
03:24Do you know, I think I was able to tap into it. And I think it used to be known as just as being childlike, being fully
03:32engaged. That's almost tapping into it, as you said, about the present moment. You connect to your performance,
03:39whatever you're doing, through feeling it, through sensing it. And that, I think, was always something I
03:44was able to do, but I didn't own it. I'd get on the field, I'd have a ball in my hand, and bang, I'd fall
03:49into it. And then I started listening to a lot of stuff that said, well, in order to have more of those
03:56moments, you've got to work for it. So you almost have to practice the opposite in order to fall into,
04:02you've got to suffer to have joy, as it were. Instead of looking and listening to that version of me that was
04:07loving life and connecting on those levels, I kept listening more to the practical one that was
04:15really suffering and fighting for this right to have a few moments of joy. So I just did more of
04:22that and less of the joyful stuff, until it got to a point where the biggest teacher I had in my life
04:28was just ultimately a sense of suffering. And I could feel it was no longer possible to live this
04:35way, because it wasn't in alignment with who I am at the core. And that suffering kind of asked me
04:40to shift. But it's quite hard, I think, for a lot of people to tap into that, let alone someone who
04:44is a professional athlete. And often, I think, the support is not necessarily there to help people
04:51tap in. I mean, in sports, do you think that support is there? I mean, maybe it's better than it
04:56used to be. But mental health for athletes is, I guess, a big talking point. And even the last time we
05:02spoke, we talked about how there was a manifestation coach for the Euros team. That's something we
05:06wouldn't have seen a long time ago. But do you think we've got a way to go with people in these
05:10very high-pressure situations?
05:12The way I see it is almost, you have this state that you're in. For me, it was often that survival
05:18state, trying to get through your game instead of enjoy it. And you want to enjoy it, which is the
05:24create state, as we're talking about. And you sort of go, I want to move from survival to create.
05:28And you want to just hop straight across. And so you try. And trying is just reminding you
05:35you're not in that state. And the bit in the middle for me, which is so much of the interesting,
05:39exciting part, was that the beginnings of that journey is just relaxation, letting go,
05:46permission to soften, to find the beginnings of safety, where there's survival, and then let
05:54it unfold towards enjoyment. We think we can control enjoyment or inspiration. And what is
06:00less inspiring than forcing inspiration? It's not inspiration. It's not enjoyment. If you
06:06control enjoyment, it's not joy. That was the beginnings of the courageous shift that it always
06:13takes and continues to take to move from survival. It's the courageous part of being, I have to leave
06:18space for a collaboration between me and this, which I thought was the universe. But it's actually
06:24for me, it's now becoming the higher part of me, which I've disconnected from, which holds the secrets
06:29to my better performance and everything else. But I wanted to own it all. And as a result, who I was
06:36kept controlling everything. And so I just felt dictated to. And my life got smaller and smaller and
06:43smaller, like a set of those Russian dolls. You kind of, in order to control, if the last one is
06:48controlling the next one, it can only be smaller than what it's come from. But when you add the
06:52unknown, it's like surprise and magic. And that's the, that's joy. I think, I don't know what you
06:59think about that. Well, I mean, I love everything that you're talking about. It's, it's just really
07:04speaks to me and the, the journey really, because it's obviously, you know, what you're encapsulating
07:10is, is a healing journey, but also a return to self. Definitely. Which is what my work is all
07:16about. And I love the way that you talk about childhood and this idea that we're born. So
07:21this, you know, this thing that the, the idea that mindfulness is something that's outside of us,
07:25that doesn't, you know, isn't integral to who we are. We're just returning to, we're just remembering
07:31really. And as children, we are often able to express our joy or be in the moment or just,
07:38you know, it's different with this generation, with, with, you know, the technologies, but with
07:44our generations, we really were able to just be in flow state. And what that is, that sort of
07:50creativity, that flow state of just whether you're kicking a ball or throwing a ball or writing or
07:54dancing or singing, or just being uninhibited and unapologetically where you are in the moment.
08:01And that is joy. So when we lose that and we, we go into the mind and really what you're talking
08:08about, the love of the game, you know, this joy of the game and you went into it and then suddenly
08:12you're abandoning self and there's an abandoning of self. And I love this idea of the Russian dolls
08:18because it's what happens on the journey. We, we end up in these places and, and so many people
08:25will recognize this who are listening. And, um, it's wonderful that you share your story in this way,
08:30because it's so important and so inspiring, especially for men. Um, because this idea of
08:37reclaiming the pieces of ourselves, you know, going from this very small place where suddenly
08:43you wake up and you feel a sort of a hollowness and an emptiness and then returning and saying, okay,
08:49I need to get back and really the mindful way that we do that. So the, the tools, you know,
08:56how do we get back to this state of just authentic being in ourselves and giving ourselves to permission
09:03really to, to be expressing our joy in the world, really what that feels like in real time.
09:09And there's so much I want to pull out of that because you mentioned flow state talking about
09:14pressure. There's also a lot of, um, a kind of performative nature, I think, to a lot of
09:20the way we talk about wellness, mindfulness. When we look at social media, we see a lot of people
09:25talking about this stuff and that can be possibly a double-edged sword. Estelle, you mentioned,
09:29you know, kids on devices and the fact that we're all locking into ideas about how we maybe should be
09:34turning up, how we should be practicing mindfulness. And maybe that's slightly at odds with the way we
09:40actually feel inside, which as you mentioned, Johnny, is that kind of really joyful, authentic
09:44flow state. I mean, what, what do you think about social media and how it intersects with these ideas?
09:50Because I guess it can be a force for good and possibly slightly something a bit darker.
09:54Wellness has become an industry. So it's a billion dollar industry. And because of that,
10:00people want to get on the wellness bandwagon and what does that, what does that mean for
10:05everyone else in the world? What it means is there's a lot of stuff out there. There's a lot of
10:10information and it can get really confusing and we can get back into, I've got to have this really
10:17long routine in the morning. I've got to have a morning routine in order to be well, right?
10:23Um, I think that it's better that it's there than, than it's not there. I feel that ultimately our
10:28society needs us to be talking about our mental health. It needs us to be talking about
10:33how we feel. And it's great that we can go online. It's great that we can go on Instagram
10:37and, or wherever, and we can find, easily find, you know, hacks or whatever you want to call,
10:43you know, these ways of being in the world quickly. You know, that's really useful for us.
10:48You know, wherever it can lose its way is when there is suddenly a look to wellness. And if you're
10:55not drinking a matcha and it hasn't got certain milk and you know, you're not doing this, you're
10:59not, you're, you're not showing up in the way that you should show up. And I feel like bringing it back
11:03down to basics. I mean, if we can actually take, even from just this part of the podcast, what it
11:07means, what true wellness is about, this idea of being mindful, this idea of just showing up in the
11:14moment and it's enough, you know, ultimately we just, it's just about being enough. And if you can
11:19just make a commitment to yourself to, to show up that day in a way that is just a, just a slot,
11:27just a little bit more loving, a little bit more mindful, you know, and it doesn't have to be
11:31that you're meditating. It doesn't have to be that you're at a sound bath. It doesn't have to be that
11:36you're drinking matcha. It can just be, I'm going to take a walk through the park, or I'm going to,
11:41I'm going to walk to the bus stop and I'm going to notice five things that I haven't noticed before.
11:45Bringing yourself into this moment can be sitting on the bus doing it. You can think,
11:49okay, I'm not going to scroll through Instagram, the basics. I think that's really important that
11:54we really always bring ourselves back down to the basics when it comes to this, you know,
12:00the bubble and the, and the, the bubble and the bubble and the bubble of, of what wellness means
12:05on online, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of the health and wellness journeys, I think for me
12:11is built upon not knowing and curiosity, but what does that look like on social media when you've got
12:1730 seconds to make a message? It's not going to work. So people, they tell you what is going to
12:22work and it's about knowing, but it always, and it's about this, again, the power of like, this will
12:28do this for you in this much time, short time, and you can have this and we, but, but so much of that
12:33journey is opening where we're closed. And the opening cannot be towards something else we know.
12:41It's just another closing without opening where you're going to connect to yourself, to your body.
12:47And so there needs to be that inspirational part, but I think we're still, it's still a lot about
12:52this will do this for you, which maybe helps immediately, but it shuts the door later on.
12:59And I think that's, that for me is so much the part. It's the slightly humiliating at times,
13:06humbling, definitely vulnerable journey of being like, I don't know, but to find the joy in that
13:13feels powerful, but I'm not sure how that, how that resonates with social media.
13:18I mean, I think it's really refreshing because all we see all day long on social media, especially
13:24in wellness, is this kind of very pushy, very performative, very competitive idea about who's,
13:30who's the wellest, who's doing it right, who's figured out their morning routine and their mindset
13:35and like you say, inner peace is completely at odds with a 30 second video telling you with
13:40surety that this is what you need in life. And I think there's also a criticism levied against a
13:45lot of people who are dealing with subjects like manifestation, that they're also speaking from
13:50a place of privilege. It's all very well if you are someone who already has a lot of money, a lot of
13:55resources at their disposal, talking about how to manifest a million pounds. I mean, those sorts of
14:01people can be quite dangerous on social media because they're speaking primarily to a very
14:06young audience, telling them that they can have whatever they want in life if they write in their
14:11gratitude journal. And those habits can actually be really, really wonderful for mental health,
14:18for opening up for that curiosity that you talk about, but they can also potentially give people
14:23the wrong idea about how to go after what they want in life, about forcing it, which is something
14:28that you touched on, Johnny. Do you think that, you know, there are much simpler ways to unlock this
14:33kind of thing? And do you think there's a danger with manifestation coaches telling young people
14:37what they can achieve?
14:38It's the law of attraction, really. And it's old. It's an old thing. It's this idea of frequency
14:44attracts frequency. What happens when we simplify for Instagram is that suddenly we've got a 10,
14:53we've got a 30 second clip of, you know, write in your gratitude journal, like you say, and
14:58everything will be well with the world. And ultimately life is what life is. It's perfectly
15:03imperfect. And what I'm loving about just sharing the story and hearing it's messy, right? So firstly,
15:12it's great to get yourself into a positive mindset. Okay. But what we don't do with a positive mindset
15:18is we don't go into a toxic positive mindset, which means that nothing exists apart from this thing
15:25that I'm toxically manifesting. So I'm going to stay really positive about it because ultimately
15:30what we want to think about is the journey too. So we do have a vision for our future because
15:35visioning in is really important. It's allowing yourself to imagine. So many of us don't allow
15:41ourselves to imagine. And especially if we've grown up in households where it's, you know, we don't,
15:46we haven't been supported. We, we, we don't dare to dream. So daring to dream is, is a breaking a
15:53limitation in itself. And it's really powerful and really important, but also it's really important
15:57and very powerful to take care of the parts of yourself that don't believe that you deserve that
16:02dream. Because if you don't take care of those parts, then you'll end up just going around in the
16:07same circle. And that's why manifestation, Instagram manifestation can sort of lead you up the
16:13garden path a little bit because we can't get from A to D or B or C. We have to do B and C. We have
16:19to do those bits in the middle. You know, I'm really consciously manifesting with the 5% of my
16:24conscious brain. Cause remember 95% is unconscious that I want the new job. I want, you know, I want
16:30the, the relationship of my dreams. I want to get married. I want to do all of these things, but
16:34it just keeps looping around. It keeps looping around because your unconscious thoughts are telling
16:39you that you don't deserve them. So we, we need to go in, we need to, we need to vision in and we need
16:44to go deep too. So the two are really, really important. And what often happens with Instagram
16:48is it's the shortcut, right? It's the shortcut version. And, and that's why it gets a bad rap.
16:56I love the section in your book, actually, where you talk about how manifestation is not necessarily
17:01about thinking about things that you want all of the time. It's about doing a bit of work on
17:06yourself. It's about healing. It's about thinking, okay, am I ready to actually receive those things?
17:11Cause if I'm not set up for them, there's no point wishing for them every single day. And that really
17:16hit hard when I read that, because I thought about Instagram manifestation and these short videos and
17:21a lot of the mantras that people are encouraging us to do. It's really cool stuff, but ultimately,
17:27if your mindset isn't there, if you're not ready to receive these things and you're having a poor
17:32relationship with yourself, it's going to be quite tricky, right?
17:34Yeah. It's tricky. So, you know, I say it all the time. I mean, that's what I, that's what my work
17:39is. That's how I, what I see with my clients. And I hear it all the time is that I'm affirming and
17:44I'm burning things at the full moon and I'm writing down this and I'm writing down that and I'm,
17:49you know, and, and actually nothing changes and nothing changes because of the 95% of your unconscious
17:55mind. Your 5% conscious mind is saying, I'm really ready for this. Your unconscious mind is still hung
18:01up on a story potentially from your childhood where you were bullied into believing that you weren't
18:08good enough to be in the call group or there's a trauma or there's something happening that is a, that
18:12is limiting you. So our ability to receive, and I really love the words that you use about the
18:18softening because that's actually a chapter of my book is the softening and the curiosity, which is
18:24literally like number one, you can stay curious. That is, that's your, it's game on. And curiosity
18:32is all we need really. If we can stay curious and soften, then we're in a place of receiving. And
18:39when we're in a place of receiving, what happens is the unconscious is what I call it's alchemizing,
18:43which is it's changing. So the affirmations have a place to, to land. It's like you're sowing seeds.
18:50If you imagine going into a garden and I talk about that in the, in the beginning, at the beginning of
18:54the book, but it's just a metaphor, which is helpful for people to go, go into your garden.
18:58What does your garden look like really? So when it's kind of a bit, you know, it's, it's full of
19:04weeds and it's not, it's not the, the, the soil isn't a fertile place to all of this stuff that you're
19:10doing to sow these seeds, then the seeds will not, they will not grow. And really that's what a
19:16little bit of the work is, you know, the inner work is, is the journey is we're just creating
19:22that fertile ground. And it's such an invitation returning to your authentic self is the, I mean,
19:28it's the greatest gift that you can ever give yourself because, you know, you can sit in your
19:34own skin and love every part of what you're doing and, and, and being and expressing and joy.
19:42You know, you start to feel joy in its, in its fullness, in its entirety, and that is brings
19:49peace and that brings serenity. And ultimately that's, you're manifesting a good life.
19:54So if someone were at the beginning of their journey, because studies show that we tend to
19:58hone in on the negative, right? So we tend to remember the one negative thing we heard about
20:03ourselves, as opposed to many, many positive things we might be hearing from other people and
20:06we hold onto it. I wonder how, if someone's at the beginning of this journey, how do they suddenly
20:12shift their mindset? You know, how can you start thinking positively if all you've been thinking
20:16about yourself is, is negative?
20:18I can use a couple of sort of anecdotes because I work with, with people that try and, like I said
20:24before, kick a ball a long way through a tiny thing. And it seems really challenging, but they've
20:29got this gift and whatever it is. But one of the things that comes up quite often is I'll say,
20:34okay, I want you to kick this ball and I want you to tell me how it feels. It's really difficult.
20:40I never like to use an out of number because it limits it. But for the purpose of making it
20:44simple for the player, I say, let's say out of 10, how does that one feel? And what they'll do is
20:49they'll kick the ball and they'll go, uh, uh, uh, and they'll look at the ball and then they'll tell
20:54me a mark. And I say, don't look at the ball. The ball doesn't tell you, you know, what that felt
21:00like. Feel it. So it's like, okay, next one. So don't look at the ball. So they'll kick the ball and
21:04they'll go, uh, uh, uh, and look at me and try and gauge from me what it looks like looking at me.
21:11So they're trying to use me as a surrogate for the ball to be like nine. And I'm looking, saying,
21:15this is the first point is that the first part of that journey is to start feeling what it is that
21:23the, so that you can connect to it. The next thing I'd say is, okay, right now let's go to
21:28your imagination. So no ball. I want you to go and pretend to kick a ball. And an easy one is to
21:34say, right, do it with your left foot. And so they'll start in their imagination, eyes closed,
21:39and they'll start standing like this. And I'm like, in your imagination, your left foot is your weaker
21:46foot. It's your imagination. You can be anything you want to be, but you've already dreamed that
21:52you've got a weak foot. So you go, okay, just how do you want it to be? If they hold true to
21:59that process for about, I'd say six kicks, the outside world suddenly starts to shape up to the
22:07inside, but it takes six kicks. And that six kicks is a bit like that chartered thing. One,
22:13you're like, okay, I'll go again. Two is like, no, I'm not allowed to go again because, you know,
22:18like two, two in a row. I'm not, I'm probably not good enough. It's not working. What's the point?
22:23But what does it take to go again? To say, no, no, this is more important than that. How I am on
22:29the inside, how I am, what I'm doing with my internal, I'm going to stay true to that for just
22:34a bit longer, for just a bit longer. And suddenly before you know it, things are shaping up.
22:39What you're doing, just going back to the idea of visioning in, we're visioning in,
22:42and I love the process. So the process is, the first part is looking out and going, I can't do it.
22:48Second part is, you know, confirmation, affirmation, external affirmation, like,
22:51what do you think? And then that resilience, that thing of going back in, because your question
22:56is, we need you to get back into yourself. We need you to be feeling for yourself. And that is the,
23:04that's what creates a new neural pathway. So six of those kicks, and it's why, you know,
23:08we have challenges, the 21 day, 28 day challenge, because they create new habits. So somewhere,
23:13we do need action, right? So somewhere we need that thing of doing, like, I want to be in the
23:20next Wimbledon, you know, somewhere we do need to show up to that.
23:23A player came to me and was sort of saying,
23:26oh, you know, the ball's going left, and I've got this game this weekend, and I'm really worried,
23:30and you can feel the energy's ride up, and it's up here, and it's, and the fear out the ground,
23:34it's like, oh, and you kind of go, okay. And now I think what I used to do to myself,
23:39and I think what he wanted me to do was answer those thoughts, give him like, it's okay,
23:44because we're going to do this, you know, guarantee, so that you can calm the energy,
23:48or try to calm the energy. But I don't want to reassure those negative thoughts,
23:52because those negative thoughts will start asking me for more reassurance,
23:55because it feels quite good. So we went for a bit of a walk around the pitch,
23:59not explicitly saying what we were doing, but I'm whilst I'm walking, I'm kind of like just
24:02passing the ball. And as we're passing the ball, I'm making it do some funny things,
24:07I'm playing with it a bit, and he starts to join in a bit. And then we have a bit of a chat,
24:12and the chat starts to move a little bit, and then he wanders back, puts the ball down on the tee,
24:17and he's setting the ball up. And about three or four minutes ago, he's saying,
24:20it's going left, and with this game, and now he sets the ball up, and he turns to me and says,
24:25did you see that program last night on TV? And I'm like, ah, we haven't answered any of your problems,
24:31but now you've got different thoughts. And I think we still think,
24:34if we answer all our problems, we'll get different thoughts. If we answer our problems,
24:38we get more problems to answer. But if we shift our energy in this process of mindfulness,
24:43we can start to curiously explore what happens if I just relax here. Going for a walk in the forest,
24:49I can tell the way the thoughts that are coming through me at the beginning and towards
24:53five minutes in, I am a different person. I'm thinking differently. And people always say,
25:01that's where I do my best thinking. I think it's where energy shifting takes place. And therefore,
25:06as you mentioned, frequency and frequency, different thoughts appear out of a different
25:10energy. So I use my thoughts as symptoms of what's happening deeper down instead of thoughts as the
25:16issue. And so instead of trying to treat the symptoms, I kind of go, ah, I don't like these
25:24thoughts. I need to ask, are they actually true? And how do I do that? Well, if they're telling me
25:31that I need to do this, then I'm going to see if I can relax. And if I can, they can't be true.
25:37And then new thoughts come and you go, ah, that was kind of empowering. And then the curious thing
25:42says, I wonder how much of my life I can live in this space of allowing. And what I haven't found
25:49is that it becomes aimless. It becomes the opposite. I think that's the feeling that a lot of people feel.
25:54It's like, oh, but if I'm not constantly on my day, I'm going to end up, you know,
25:58driving the completely wrong way, forgetting how to drive in the first place and all these other
26:03things. But it just isn't the point on a rugby field when you enter the zone, you don't start
26:07attacking the wrong posts. You know exactly why you're there. And that intelligence is,
26:12and the intention is at the base of what you're, or it's really pervading everything you're doing,
26:17but just effortlessly instead of, instead of through stress.
26:20I also wanted to ask whether the key to mindfulness really is sort of stepping out of your
26:25own way and putting aside all these expectations that you might've had for yourself. So the idea
26:31that when you're growing up, you think you might grow up to be a doctor or a writer or a rugby
26:35player. And then actually thinking, well, what about if I'm not? What about if I just allow
26:41things to unfold for myself?
26:42The need to become something is that, you know, the creator falling in love with your
26:49creation, losing sight of your creativity. It's almost, that's what came with me with
26:53the rugby players. Like the intuitive thing was, I love this ball on my hands and I love
26:57being out here and there's so much at play, connecting with other individuals, testing my
27:01body, facing challenge, you know, taking on this anxiety, this, this insecurity, all of
27:07that's embedded within it, but you make it just about winning that trophy at the end.
27:12And then you start missing this beauty and it takes you a bit of a while to realize, oh
27:16my gosh, there's so much at play there. Those desires are often for me guiding me somehow
27:22either through contrast or through affirmation towards who I really am. Rugby seemed to be
27:28about connecting with people, facing anxiety. Now my work seems to be to explore that from
27:34that position when you are willing to stride forward and with your full presence. If you
27:39could ever look back, it's always a beautiful straight line. You kind of go, oh, it always
27:42makes so much sense. But when you try and look forward and work it all out, it never
27:46makes sense. And I think just that power to sort of go, right, this is how I feel and
27:50I'm going. All I can take in my life is the next step and I'm, I'm going.
27:55It does take courage and you use that word quite a lot and it is, it's, there's a resilience
27:59around that, right? And it has to grow. It's like, it's like a bicep coming back in and
28:03you, you build that bicep. I always say that to people, just give yourself a moment to just
28:07build the bicep of your own voice inside, but then you can kind of back yourself with
28:14that, right? So if we're manifesting something new and it's kind of a little bit off piece,
28:18but you can kind of back yourself with this new idea because you're feeling it really in
28:24your bones. No one else is feeling it. You know, I always say that you're the one that
28:30knows your dream. You are the one that can, that has that vision and everyone around you,
28:35there may be no one that's, that's actually affirming that for you, but, but when we are
28:40really deeply affirming it for ourselves, then we can, you know, manifest more. Um, but
28:47it is this habit forming thing of giving yourself permission to, to shapeshift, to become more,
28:53to change, to pivot, you know, to explore. I love that. And that it seems to me is really
29:00the secret to getting started on this journey, small habits, reaffirming those ideas that we
29:05are enough. We can do things. Um, you know, it's, it's not some crazy hack. It's, it just
29:11makes sense. Right. Does that, do you feel that takes place in your small decisions? You know,
29:17a lot of these talks about, you know, who should I become? What job do I want to do? I'm not
29:20sure what my passion is in life, but then someone says, do you want to come to dinner? And you tune
29:25in and go, the initial part goes, Oh gosh, no, no, no, no, no, no. But if you tune in and
29:30go, you know, I think it's a yes. And then you find that that yes may open up to another
29:37thing, which then leads you. And suddenly following that, you know, I love the expression
29:41that the path of highest excitement and passion always seems to be the path of greatest challenge,
29:47but also of greatest wisdom. And you follow it and you kind of, before you know it, it's
29:52gathered momentum, but we're waiting for that absolute eureka moment. But actually it may
29:56be in the small ones that's being offered to us every day.
30:00And also it's that thing of what is today, like the purpose or daily purpose is just tuning
30:05in. Yeah.
30:06Right. And trusting. So I've got this, this, I have got a big idea. I want to write a book,
30:11but today it may just be about, you know, I'm going to say yes to lunch because yes to
30:18lunch is just inspiring and gets you out of your head and gets you out of the house and
30:22gets you out of yourself. Or I'm going to do something new because again, the act of pushing
30:27the boundaries on, you know, because we do need to move out of our comfort zone, but we
30:31often can't take the big leaps. So, and that's okay. Cause we're not really meant to, we're
30:36not hardwired for that. We're hardwired to, to do things that feel safe actually. So how
30:42do we companion ourselves in a really safe way out of our comfort zones by taking those
30:49very, very small steps?
30:50If you're looking for passion, it's like, I think there's probably signals everywhere
30:54right here, but we're kind of like, yeah, I need to find it here. So we're missing them
31:00all. And I think that's just, that's such a big opportunity.
31:02What I'm learning and taking away from a lot of what you're both saying is it's kind
31:07of about habit forming, isn't it? But it's not just about habits with our thoughts. It's
31:11about habits in terms of how we show up for ourselves, how we take care of ourselves.
31:15It's about being positive in every aspect of our daily lives. So I guess something small
31:21that you've hit upon Johnny, um, that I've also now taken away, cause these are some of
31:25my favorite things to have every day are things like doing something good for my gut. You know,
31:29the gut brain connection is really strong. It can influence our mood. It can influence
31:33our ability to feel good. Um, when did you kind of hit upon the idea that the gut or,
31:40you know, drinking something like this was really important for, for the habit building?
31:43I knew body fitness from my career, but I didn't, I didn't know health and wellbeing.
31:50And my entry point to that was the mental side. I'd always had crisis moments throughout my life
31:55because of how I grew up and the, and the stance I had against life from a fearful perspective.
32:00Then I started exploring this understanding that actually there is no clear line between
32:06mental and physical. Yeah. And the body and then the mind, it's like, no, it's all tight.
32:11And it's all one. And this beautiful thing about it all being one, um, was behind the, the,
32:15the one living, the power, as we talk about with the messaging to try and help this opening
32:20up and this curiosity and this inspiration. We've got a few different products, but they represent
32:26things that are really important. One of them, we have a living drink, uh, kombucha and water
32:29coffee and the living side of it, the bacterial thing has been a massive shift. People, the way
32:34that people look at bacteria, understanding it's part of us. It, um, 10 X is the number of genes
32:41we have in us. We have 20,000, but the bacterial part, that means we have 2 million. You're like,
32:47it's super intelligent, but also not just that it's like the star player on a team.
32:52It, as soon as it's on the pitch, everything else starts coming alive, talking to each other better.
32:57The team becomes whole and you get this understanding that health and wellbeing is not about
33:02a plus B equals C. It's more of a team spirit thing. You know, when you get a team together
33:08and you're like, how the hell are we doing this? That's, that's health and wellbeing.
33:10When the body's coming together and it's all starting operating, functioning as, as a whole
33:15in its whole intelligence, it's an ever expanding possibility. And then we have, um, our health
33:21shots, which is kind of this, all these ridiculous number of super ingredients, all leaning towards
33:26different areas, but these ingredients, they, they don't just add up. They amplify again.
33:34And this idea, we're moving out of this idea that it's a journey of just, I have to do this,
33:38plus this, plus this, and it'll get me this. It's like, no, health and wellbeing is just not that.
33:43It's, it's inspirational. It's magical. It's, it can be. And then we've got, we've got a cool
33:49sort of CBD drink, which is for me, it's a bit like your coach's team talk. Everyone's a bit,
33:54and then it goes, listen guys, we're good. We're good. You got this. Just come down. Like we said,
34:00I'm in survival. Let me just open up. It's not the coach's job to be, yeah, now we're amazing. It's
34:07the coach's job to be like, you need to realise you've got this. And that's what will make you feel amazing.
34:12And I think it's important to remember, like you were saying, that authenticity,
34:16that inner voice is something we should maybe all be reaching for a little bit more rather than
34:20comparing ourselves to other people, other people's journeys, thinking about what the
34:24TikTok coach is telling us. It's more about ourselves coming home to ourselves. My final
34:30question for you both, what's your one non-negotiable for wellness?
34:33For me, it's in that awareness and curiosity. Those two things, I think that allows for all my
34:41faculties to come to the fore, which means I feel present. I spent so long trying to work out
34:47what the hell a good life well lived is, and how I was going to make the most of a career,
34:51and how I'm making the most of this life. And there's no such thing as a life. There's just this
34:56moment that question is never, can I make the most of this career? It's just, are you present here now?
35:03And what does that mean? And I know that as soon as I go into that awareness space, I have to be here.
35:10Because I'm aware of whatever's taking place here. And the other part that keeps me from,
35:15sort of allows me to keep growing is the curiosity part. Life is connected to the magical.
35:22And now I see life through a magical lens rather than a formulaic one. And that's the shift of,
35:28what do you want to call it, mindfulness or whatever. It's like,
35:32you see a table, and you see a floor, and you see things, and you see people, and you see strategy,
35:36and you see this, and you see paths, and you're like, yeah. Or you just see, wow. Even when it's not
35:44a great wow, it's still a damn wow, which makes it a great wow. That's what is the key to me. And
35:49curiosity, awareness, which ultimately means presence.
35:53And I do think we are all quite guilty of time traveling, aren't we? We're thinking about
35:57what's next, what's next, what's happening in the future, or what happened in the past,
36:00and how that defines us in the moment. But actually tapping into that presence and
36:04that curiosity is, as you say, it's really magical.
36:08Yeah, so far.
36:10What would your one wellness non-negotiable be, Estelle?
36:13Well, I think I have to say, it's to get out of the mind, drop out of the mind,
36:20and drop into the heart. That is the work that I do. And really, I always say, stay curious,
36:28and see what happens. When we get out of the chatter of the mind, we drop into the heart,
36:32just with a really simple, you know, breathing into the heart every day, and just listening.
36:37That is an opening, really, to the magic. Because this is our first organ. It really is a power
36:46organ. You know, the field is 100 times more powerful than the minds. And it has a memory,
36:55it has a brain of its own, just like the gut. So we've got these three brains. You know,
37:00why the gut is so important is because it really creates mood, it changes mood. But the heart is
37:07also an undiscovered mind. It has a heart-mind that is scientifically proven. So my one thing is,
37:14my non-negotiable, is just in this moment, know that you are present, you're listening,
37:22with all of you, and that's enough. Know that you're exactly where you're meant to be,
37:27and that's enough. And stay curious to this conversation and what's emerged for you.
37:35And let that be your guide. That's also incredible advice. And I don't know about you guys,
37:41but I feel quite zen now, having listened to what you've both shared. Joni, Estelle,
37:45thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Well Enough. It's been such a pleasure speaking
37:49with you both. If you want to listen to more of what Estelle and Joni have to say,
37:54you can look them up on their own podcasts. Estelle's podcast is Love, Purpose, Connection,
37:58and Joni's podcast is I Am. You can also find Estelle's book, Manifest Your True Essence,
38:04anywhere you buy books. And you can also shop for one living in supermarkets near you and online too.
38:10Thank you very much for joining us. And in the meantime, stay well.
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