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Washington, D.C., where poverty is widespread among the population (75% of which is black).

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00:01Major funding for Frontline is provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting,
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00:20Tonight, on Frontline, a story about Washington.
00:27But it is not about this Washington, the one that governs, it's about the one that burned.
00:37Not the city of the power brokers, but the city of the poorest of the poor.
00:44Tonight, a look at that other Washington, and the people who run it, in the shadow of
00:52the Capitol.
01:01From the network of public television stations, a presentation of KCTS Seattle, WNET New York,
01:08WPBT Miami, WTVS Detroit, and WGBH Boston.
01:15This is Frontline, with Jessica Savage.
01:20Twenty-three years ago tomorrow, a North Carolina sit-in launched the Student Nonviolent Coordinating
01:27Committee, SNCC.
01:29Six years earlier, the Supreme Court had called for an end to segregation in schools with all
01:34deliberate speed, sending the signal that an end to segregation and discrimination was
01:39at hand.
01:40But those in power moved slowly.
01:43SNCC and other civil rights groups helped change that.
01:46They not only challenged the power structure, they entered it.
01:50Today, those SNCC organizers run the District of Columbia.
01:53This is their story.
01:55The director of this report is Hector Galan.
01:58The reporter, Charlie Cobb.
02:06This is Washington, D.C.
02:14Is the Washington familiar to all of us?
02:25My name is Charlie Cobb.
02:27I'm a reporter.
02:29There is another Washington.
02:34Seventy percent black, a percentage higher than any other major city in the country.
02:42It is the city where I was born, where I now live.
02:55Tonight I want you to meet some special people, the black men and women who came from these
03:00streets to govern the city.
03:02Their extraordinary history tells us something about how government works, and whether it can
03:07work to meet the needs of poor people, especially the very poor.
03:12Democrats care, care about people, care about people who are in the dawn of life, who are
03:20youngsters, people in the twilight of life who are seniors, and people in the shadow of
03:26life who are the poor, the handicapped, and all of those who need help that the Republicans
03:31have forgotten about, so Democrats do care, don't they?
03:38I would not have expected the Marion Barry I remember to be surrounded by applauding powers
03:49of the National Democratic Party.
03:51Twenty years ago, Mayor Marion Barry belonged to SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating
03:56Committee, a militant, student-led civil rights organization.
04:02Ivan O'Donelson, now Marion Barry's chief political advisor, was a SNCC organizer in Mississippi.
04:11City Councilman John Wilson, who chairs the Finance Committee, also worked for SNCC in Virginia
04:16and Mississippi.
04:19Throughout the city bureaucracy, there are former SNCC people, like Cortland Cox, who organized
04:24in Alabama.
04:26And myself, I was a SNCC organizer in Mississippi.
04:30We were all forged in the furious fires that burned in the Deep South, cotton country, during
04:36the civil rights struggle.
04:52SNCC was really an organization of organizers.
04:55It burst from Southern Black College campuses exactly 23 years ago, February 1, 1960.
05:02We were young, teenagers many of us.
05:10Segregation and discrimination were the law and the tradition.
05:13We were ready to challenge it.
05:16I'm sorry, our management does not allow us to serve niggers in here.
05:21Marion Barry was one of the leaders of the Nashville student movement.
05:27The prospect of violence surrounded us at lunch counters.
05:36In southern streets, we faced a society enraged at our direct challenge.
05:44We discovered that government itself would attack us.
05:50We challenged not only segregation, but much of the old ways of thinking about ourselves.
06:02Marion Barry became SNCC's first chairman.
06:05Ivan O'Donelson, Cortland Cox, John Wilson, and myself, as well as many others who joined
06:10SNCC, committed ourselves to what seemed the center of our generation's struggle for meaningful
06:16social change.
06:17Eventually, Marion came to Washington to open an office to support SNCC's work in the South.
06:29Police is the number one problem in America, and if you all don't want to deal with that,
06:32that's your problem.
06:33He quickly found himself organizing on the streets.
06:37Police brutality and the issue of voter rights sometimes made the district feel like Mississippi.
06:44We can conduct our own meeting in the 3rd District, and I live in the 3rd District, I live in the
06:503rd District, see, dig it?
06:51I work in the 3rd District, dig it?
06:53And I deserve the people out there who live there who deserve the right to be here, and
06:56they're going to come in here as long as I'm in here.
07:00But the winds of change were blowing through the city.
07:05If the system here was a little less resistant to change, it was also a little threatened
07:11by the anger in the streets.
07:14By the late 1960s, some things had changed, including Marion Berry, who was now trying to
07:20join the establishment he'd been fighting.
07:22Those of us who were in the movement have now decided we're going to try to come inside
07:27of the institutional form of government, called government, and try to make some difference
07:32there.
07:33In 1968, Marion was elected to the school board.
07:37By 1974, he was elected to the newly established city council.
07:42And in 1978, he made a bid for mayor.
07:45I have always, will, and have been, my own man.
07:50In that election, many voters were leery of his earlier radical, rabble-rousing image.
07:57An ad was designed to turn that image to his advantage.
08:01The message, you might not like everything Marion Berry says, but you know where he stands.
08:06Marion Berry cares.
08:08He's working to get jobs for the people of our city.
08:11Where is Sterling Tucker?
08:13Where is Walter Washington?
08:15Take a stand.
08:16Vote Marion Berry for mayor.
08:19We've come a long ways, haven't we?
08:22He won, demonstrating a somewhat surprising ability to capture the votes of Kennedy Johnson
08:28white liberals, who had come to Washington to run the programs of the Great Society.
08:33This, plus the support of many blacks who remembered his work in the streets, put him
08:38over the top.
08:39It was like a dream when that guy got elected.
08:42No one thought he was going to win that election.
08:44Everyone was saying, yeah, you know, Marion's the best guy, and gosh, if I had my druthers,
08:47I'd vote for Marion, but he can't win.
08:49And then the paper goes and endorses him.
08:51Suddenly he gains some momentum.
08:53One of the candidates starts to drop.
08:55The front runner starts to lose speed on him.
08:58And suddenly he's elected.
08:59And you think, here it is, Camelot revisited on the local level.
09:02We're going to do it.
09:04Hi.
09:05This is the mayor, Abigail.
09:06Hi.
09:07I have a kiss.
09:08Hi.
09:09Hi.
09:10A rabble-rousing street image wasn't a problem when he decided to run again in 1982.
09:17Mayor Barry.
09:18He saw what unemployment was doing to people and had the vision to do something about it.
09:24This time, the campaign machinery was well oiled.
09:27Marion had more than a million dollars in his campaign kitty.
09:30His political ads were very different from those in 1978.
09:34The fact is, Mayor Barry has increased locally funded jobs from zero to over 7,000.
09:40When you cut through the promises, one record speaks for itself.
09:43Mayor Barry.
09:44He's more than just talk.
09:49He won big with over 50% of the vote and has clearly emerged as the dominant political power in Washington, D.C.
09:56Now, what would he do to fulfill the promises he'd made to himself and to the people of the city?
10:0383.
10:04They funded when?
10:0583.
10:06They made us whole.
10:0783 went for all.
10:08So, we'll see.
10:09We've got to try to get our budgets through this session.
10:12Before this session adjourned, I talked to you about that.
10:15Behind the scenes as Chief Political Advisor, Ivanhoe Donaldson has played a crucial role in Marion Barry's political evolution.
10:22A number of black elected officials around the country have been assisted by Ivanhoe.
10:27For example, Georgia State Legislator Julian Bond and Andrew Young, Mayor of Atlanta.
10:33My name is Ivanhoe Donaldson.
10:36I'm 21 years old.
10:38I'm the field secretary for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
10:42Commonly known as SNCC.
10:44I find it impossible to think of SNCC without thinking of Ivanhoe, the organizer's organizer.
10:50He can tell you and make you feel what organizing was like 20 years ago.
10:54Some of you have gone to some of these workshops before.
10:57There's certain little things you should always remember.
11:00Like you shouldn't be wearing a watch.
11:02Even if you trip, you're out of the break.
11:04Especially if it's valuable to you.
11:06Girls who wear pierced earrings shouldn't be wearing them that day or today.
11:11This young man really isn't protected at all because his hand is going to be over his head.
11:17He's protected.
11:18He's doing a good thing.
11:19Notice, he went down here to protect.
11:23I hope all of you realize why we're going down here today.
11:28The kids who die, I've heard it, they're our age.
11:33The youngest was 13.
11:3511.
11:3611 years old.
11:37A girl.
11:38Four girls and two boys.
11:41So, they could throw us.
11:43They could die right through this window here in this church.
11:46I sure hope that people around the world will respond to it.
11:50So we don't die for no.
11:52When are we going to get together?
11:53Oh, yeah?
11:54You got all the answers for all the problems?
11:58What about, you know, Thursday around 10 o'clock?
12:06As one of the city's three deputy mayors, Ivanhoe is still a whirlwind of energy.
12:11Both Ivanhoe and Marion have come a great distance since the days with SNCC in the Deep South 20 years ago.
12:18But even then on those southern roads, we wondered how much of a difference we were really making.
12:24And that question still exists now, today, in Washington, D.C.
12:29Necessarily, questions of budget and bureaucracy occupy much of the time and thought of anyone administering a city.
12:36The people on the streets can become distant.
12:40But wouldn't the government of Marion Barry bring some special touch or sensitivity to helping the poor and homeless?
12:47Let me say that I'm the same mayor who balanced the budget in 1981, who balanced the budget in 1982,
12:55who took us out of financial chaos and confusion to soundness and sanity.
13:01What about user fees, sir?
13:03Juan Williams covers the city government for the Washington Post.
13:07It's in the dawning of politics here.
13:10I mean, and you have guys like Marion Barry who can get elected.
13:13People who should theoretically care.
13:16People who should theoretically be responsive to the mass of people.
13:22But, God, you have to have doubts at this point.
13:27We love the District of Columbia, don't we?
13:30We love the District of Columbia, don't we?
13:34We love the District of Columbia, don't we?
13:36We love the District of Columbia, don't we?
13:39The District of Columbia's 45 square miles is easily found on the map.
13:47But D.C. is really many cities.
13:50Much of the city is middle class.
13:52West of the park, as we say, Rock Creek Park, that divides the city north to south, is largely white and wealthy.
13:58Across the river, as we also say, meaning southeast Washington, has a high density of the black and poor.
14:05Everywhere, the faces of poverty, so easy to spot, tear at the soul of the city.
14:10Mitch Snyder is one of those who works among them.
14:16There's two cities.
14:17I mean, there's the city that both the tourists and the normal, everyday government workers see.
14:22And those are, you know, the areas that are kept clean where there's lots of plants and lots of grass and lots of trees and lots of impressive buildings.
14:29And there's the city that's made up of poor people and old people who are struggling to get through the day and families who are struggling to get through the week and the month.
14:40And women who are fighting rats off their kids and folks who are wondering where their next meal or their next job or their next ray of hope is going to come from.
14:49And the two cities exist side by side but never really quite touch one another, you know.
14:55The tourists never just kind of slip into one by accident or the government workers never quite just kind of slide into the other city by accident.
15:06The two have existed side by side for a very long time.
15:09And if the folks who have the power and the control in this city have anything to say about it, they're going to continue to exist side by side.
15:16And they're going to keep that narrow path between the two real clear and real open.
15:24Growing poverty, growing desperation, growing crime.
15:28Crime is a word that makes sparks fly in this town.
15:31Robbery or sudden violence can happen in the best and worst of neighborhoods.
15:36It's never far from the mind of Ben Martin when he walks through the city in the early morning hours.
15:42He's lived here in LaDroide Park for over 50 years and watched his neighborhood and the city become more dangerous.
15:49Every morning I get up between 4.30 and quarter to 5.00.
15:56And I go from here, right around Logan Circle, straight down to McPherson Square.
16:02There's nothing the same the days it was when I came here years ago.
16:08The people is different. The same people is not here anymore.
16:12They moved out and this new bunch move in from everywhere.
16:15I know the time when the police used to come right there on that corner, take his gun.
16:21We had a club over there in 210 in the back.
16:24He'd take his gun off and hang it up on the wall.
16:27He played cards. He drank whiskey.
16:29He came out there and he rung that box every hour on the hour.
16:33And he never made an arrest.
16:35There wasn't any arrest to make.
16:37People just didn't rob each other.
16:40People didn't hide each other.
16:43For over 17 years, Ben Martin has taken this same early morning walk.
16:49The pigeons wait patiently for him.
17:05The tourists wander in a separate universe.
17:09When he returns home, he returns to a world where safety and survival are uncertain.
17:15Old people crippled and drunk.
17:18They prey on them people.
17:20Well, I got two of the main features.
17:23Old and crippled.
17:25But I got two registered guns.
17:27Shotgun and a rifle.
17:28They're all registered.
17:29You're saying you have to have a gun to survive?
17:31You've got to.
17:32And if anybody think anything differently crazy,
17:35they'll find all these poor old people around beat up and stabbed and everything every day.
17:39Why are you thinking?
17:40Because the old women can't help themselves.
17:43And it's not going to change.
17:46The problems of poverty and urban blight here in Washington confront every city.
17:59But if solutions are possible, I like to think that the SNCC veterans have the best chance of finding them.
18:05I asked Ivanhoe about how being in government has changed him.
18:11You know, the SNCC people in the government having switched roles, many of them are still doing what they've always done.
18:17It's something I knew for them to do it and the taxpayers pay for it.
18:20You know, which is organizing for things that they think are important.
18:26Marion Barry, however, has really become the leader.
18:29When you're mayor, you have to be conscious of the fact that there are certain legal responsibilities at office or mayor.
18:38There are things I have to sign and things can't happen without my concurrence.
18:42But also you have to be mindful of the various and diverse constituencies.
18:47Washington is a multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multicultural, multi-religious city like most of our cities are.
18:54Just the numbers change in proportion.
18:57Governments can reform themselves and they can become progressive and liberal.
19:01You know, whether governments can be radical and become institutions of change in and of themselves.
19:07I don't think so because the role of government is very status quo.
19:11And you try and say, well, can I use this institution to leverage, to help people?
19:17I think the answer is yes.
19:18Can I use this institution to make a radical change in the economy of the District of Columbia?
19:23No, you can get more people to participate.
19:25You can broaden it.
19:27You can get minorities involved in it, Hispanics and blacks.
19:30You know, you can get women involved in it.
19:32But, you know, can you socialize this community through the government process?
19:38Probably not, I would say.
19:40No, no way.
19:41I mean, that becomes revolutionary.
19:44And a government is vested to protect and defend what is.
19:51I can get more done in five minutes with my signature on a document which says that 25% of all of our contracts
19:59the D.C. government contractors that D.C. government does business with would be minority.
20:06That's a process that's, in my view, in 1982, more effective than trying to assemble a thousand black contractors, minority contractors, outside the district building, saying, why doesn't the government give us this opportunity to succeed?
20:21So I'm in a position now, in my view, to make decisions to help a larger number of people with a lethal amount of effort.
20:30Marion Barry has received his share of criticism from the pages of the Washington Post.
20:36Reporter Juan Williams has been tough on the city government.
20:41There's one thing that always sticks in my mind from a conversation with him, and we were talking politics one day.
20:47This was when he was still talking to me.
20:49And I said, you know, there's a lot of complaints from people who say you've lost touch with the poor.
20:56That the guys now on Martin Luther King Avenue in Anacostia don't really feel like they know Marion Barry anymore.
21:04That you don't come around like you used to.
21:06You're not on the corner.
21:07You're not even there in terms of bringing the government's presence and the government's aid to those people.
21:12And he said, after a moment's hesitation, he said, you know, people in Ward 8 don't vote.
21:19And I thought to myself, well, I mean, that's what it comes down to, isn't it?
21:23Do they vote or don't they vote?
21:25And in this town, those poor people, uneducated and especially unsophisticated in the ways of government,
21:31because we've just brought a local government to Washington, don't vote.
21:36So don't vote means don't count.
21:39And in Marion Barry's world, that's the calculation.
21:41You don't vote, you don't count.
21:43So, you know, what do I have to do for those people in Anacostia?
21:46Not much, says Marion Barry, because they don't vote.
21:49I don't think that the error was to enter the system.
21:52I think the error was to let the system enter them.
21:56As a city councilman, Reverend Douglas Moore was controversial and often challenged the Barry government.
22:03Doug was active in the 1960 meeting that created SNCC.
22:07Now he is attacking his former SNCC colleagues.
22:12They look colored, but they're not.
22:16Not in the sense of being really concerned about the people who live in this city.
22:22Now, of course, you've heard me say before, we have a lot of colored clones.
22:29.
22:31.
22:32.
22:34.
22:36.
22:38.
22:39.
22:43.
22:44.
22:45.
22:47.
22:48Arian and other SNCC people disagree.
23:14They say they've chosen politics because it's the only game in town.
23:21Right now, the Democratic Party is the game that people play.
23:25If another game comes along, then that's fine.
23:28I don't think the organizers, Charlie, ought to ever define the game or create the institutions.
23:35I think the strength of an organizer is that irrespective of the ideology that's in the background is hidden.
23:41Their agendas aren't visible.
23:43They allow people to create their own agendas.
23:46The organizers' belief is that if what they're doing is right, the agendas will merge at some point in history.
23:54The difference between the ideologue and the organizers, the ideologue says,
24:01Well, here's what you've got to believe. This is the truth.
24:04Now, if you don't believe this truth, you're not relevant. You don't understand. You're a cop-out. You're a sell-out. You're a revisionist. You're this.
24:12Now, I don't know a thousand words that they call you. The organizers doesn't play that game.
24:15The organizers don't play that game. They just keep whittling away.
24:17Molding in or advocating on the outside and they build.
24:21Slowly and surely throughout the pages of history, they build.
24:25But they build through people.
24:27people. You know, the organized, not the leader. You know, they're not, I mean, Mayor Barry
24:34has switched roles here. You know, I haven't. Nevertheless, ideals can be whittled away
24:41by a massive bureaucracy. Translating SNCC's ideals into government action is difficult,
24:47especially when it comes to meeting the needs of poor people.
24:50You know, that's my problem. I've been trying to figure out for eight and a half years what
24:54I can do as a councilman that would basically have some effect on poor people. What we have,
25:01I guess in the last eight and a half years, I've compiled an absolutely good legislative
25:06record. I don't think anybody can dispute that. But I really believe as a legislature,
25:12as far as poor people are concerned, I've been absolutely ineffective.
25:15What do you mean? Explain that some more.
25:18Well, when I look at the conditions that most poor people are living in in the city at this
25:23point, they were living under the same conditions when I came into office. And I was hoping
25:28that within four or five years, we could at least begin to turn the situation around. But
25:36maybe I was much too naive.
25:38If government can't find the answers for poor people, are they doomed to remain forever trapped
25:45at the bottom of society?
25:46We saw the other day here in Washington when the Klan came, a little outburst where some
25:53members of that underclass, mostly young men in their late teens and early twenties, just
25:57went off, started throwing bricks, started getting angry at the cops, really for no good reason,
26:02just a kind of angry outburst. But those people are living in hard times.
26:07There's strong unemployment among youth here. It's close to 70% among black youth in Washington,
26:36D.C. I don't know what happens to those people. They become your permanent underclass. They
26:41become the people who are disaffected, and their numbers are growing here.
26:48Washington's streets have exploded before. In 1968, the trigger was the assassination of
26:55Martin Luther King. Deeply felt anger at society underlay that revolt. 14th Street never recovered
27:03from the fires of that time. The street looks calm, but it feels like a lit fuse.
27:10When 14th Street hummed with political and cultural activity, I lived next door to Washington
27:15poet Gaston Neal. For two days, the frenzied street seemed almost liberated, but it didn't
27:23last long. All of a sudden, about on the third day, an almost eerie, weird silence dropped over. And way
27:34down the street, as you look down 14th Street, you saw coming up from downtown, you saw these
27:39lights flashing and blinking. And it was, I always, it was, it was a scary feeling, because you
27:47sense something different was happening from that, you know, wonderful sense of liberation. And all of a sudden,
27:52as they got closer and closer, you could see, like it was a 82nd airborne. And you could see the half
27:58track, and you could see the 50 caliber machine gun. You saw the whole weight of America beginning to
28:04descend upon us.
28:05The dilemma facing Marion's government is that if solutions to today's problems aren't found,
28:13it could happen again. If we have a continuance of, of, of ignoring the struggles of the people, all the
28:24little games that, from the 60s, that are being snatched away, yes, yes, definitely. I would want it to
28:32happen again. But I would want it to happen in a different sense. I mean, I would want it to, like, I want us to, the people to come to the
28:37streets again, and demand, you know, what is rightfully, you know, ours, in the sense of our, our, our well-being, our
28:47education, our growth. We can't get it through addressing it, and what we call the normal way. Then again, I'll go and
28:55join again. My own house was burnt down. And I, I'll say, burn my house down, and burn, and all the precious things that I
29:02love would burn down. My, my letters from Langston Hughes, my pains, you know, my books, my records, all that, destroyed
29:11during the 68th rebellion.
29:1514th Street was where the action was, you know, in terms of our, you know, the political growth, you know, of
29:20Washington. Because out of this came, again, again, our city councilman, you know, our mayor, you know, uh, the politics of
29:2714th Street produced, you know, the politics of Washington, which is, to me, you know, or just
29:33ultimately important, you know, the importance of the street. You know, it's, it's with a, uh, a pain that,
29:39you know, you walk up and down here now, and you don't see, you don't feel any of that. No, it's all gone.
29:50Gaston and I pushed into the old boarded-up SNCC office, and memories came flooding back.
29:56It was, you know, a magnificent place. It was our beginning. And as you can see,
30:03it's, it's torn down. It's nothing.
30:15Across town in the northeast section, Billy Chen took me through the litter of his demolished dream.
30:21The 14th Street uprising helped loosen money for community services.
30:25Here, Billy and others organized a 24-hour center for teenagers.
30:29Now it's closed.
30:32I know one thing. I never go through this again. It was too much emotion, too much attachment.
30:42And too crushing when it fails.
30:44And it failed because it wasn't supported.
30:52Most community organizations have been battered so much, they are tired.
30:57They, uh, defeated. So we're in a, a period of, uh, retreat
31:06and reticence. That there is no strong voice in terms of, of there being any movement
31:14in the black community or in the white community. It just doesn't exist.
31:23Local government is almost brand new in Washington.
31:26One result has been that many of the city's key community organizers have been absorbed into the system.
31:35A lot of the leadership, you know, uh, from the movement days did, in fact, get absorbed into the government.
31:43Plus, you get this contradiction where, you know, we go into the government, you know,
31:49and people start attacking us. They say, wait a second, now, I ain't responsible for that mess.
31:52You know, uh, we're, uh, you know, we're just, uh, you know, we're the same old folks.
32:00People say, no, you're not. You're in charge.
32:06The meaning of being in charge still occupies much of the discussion when SNP people gather.
32:19This evening we're getting together. Some of us in government. Some out. Some of us will have
32:26nothing to do with government.
32:32We are journalists, lawyers, in business, unemployed, in the arts. Many things.
32:49None of us is without questions and strong opinion.
33:11Is it worth what you gain as a councilman or as a mayor
33:15or as an advisor to the mayor or an organizer for the mayor or as a troubleshooter for the mayor?
33:22Is it worth what you gain in government in terms of what you lose, perhaps,
33:28by not expending all of those creative energies, uh, organizing neighborhoods independent of government?
33:36I mean, should you be an advocate or should you be a government official?
33:40We've won that argument by winning this administration.
33:44Now we have to fight to make this administration consistent with what SNP was.
33:49As inclusionary, as issue-oriented, and as open to people as possible.
33:54I don't know whether or not we're going to win that one. It depends on him.
33:56I would really like to see, um, something coming, emanating out of the district building, out of
34:08the mayor's office, out of the city council by those people who subscribe to a particular dream
34:15that had, in fact, something to do with saving a good portion of this city for poor people and black
34:22people. And I don't really see that happening.
34:25In a real sense, I wonder if we are over-expecting because of where we have come from and who we are.
34:33And if we are over-expecting, we are all in for a great disappointment.
34:37But you keep talking about...
34:38I think what's happening here is not, Tim, the question of the limits of government, because there are.
34:43I think that in each of our roles and what we do, the limitations, is what we do with the roles,
34:50you know, that make things important. So we are empowering. We've brought credibility
34:54and resources to a lot of little things out there.
34:57You're talking about hard decisions to make these days. They're not easy decisions. And they're decisions
35:03that we try to approach, I think, in some sort of passionate fashion.
35:07You know, the government hasn't become everything. You now hold some positions in it.
35:13What the hell? It was limited then. It's limited now. It's the people. It's still the people.
35:18It is still the people who have to understand what they want out of a government and what
35:24the rules are that they require government to live by. And that is that is the organizing job
35:30that's not related to parties and even holding elective office.
35:34But in a real sense, people vote for people like Marion in great part because they think
35:41that he can not only translate his former commitment into power for them but can make
35:47things change for them. And that is a very heavy burden, particularly in times like these.
35:52I think part of what happens is you get stuck in Washington without getting out of it. You don't see
35:58what's not happening anywhere else. And so it's a relative situation, the way I look at it. What can you do
36:03with the constraints, with the mood of the country change as it has? The whole mood is different
36:09in 1982 than it was in 1962. I mean, I mean, this is totally different.
36:14Politics is only a means. And the question is, what do you have to do that can't be done by government
36:23in the lives of people? And are we prepared to do that still?
36:29As long as we continue to participate in the process, and as long as we are wise enough to make
36:35sound decisions, sound political decisions that don't radically change the base, then what is basically
36:41going to happen is that we're going to be able to forge the change that everybody's talking about.
36:46We've got to believe that. If you don't believe that, then I don't know how you get up every
36:51morning. I have to believe that. It's essential for me to believe that in order to operate on a day-to-day
36:56basis. I must believe that. We, I mean, of any and everybody in this country,
37:03have, have, have, have certain, have certain, uh, uh, commitment and, uh, potential. And I include
37:14myself in this because, you know, I get scared myself, but there's certain things that we're not
37:21doing. So I don't want to just talk about winning and how we won the campaign and blotty blotty,
37:27when there are a lot of other things that we should really substantively deal with. How can we change
37:34them? The discussion will continue for no one can pretend that answers for today are any less complex
37:43than the problems. Howard University professor Ronald Walters. We are now experiencing the first
37:54generation of people who went into the political system. And I think that, uh, we have developed
38:01some unusual expectations, some expectations that probably weren't realistic. Um, for example,
38:07I mean, it was very heady stuff to wake up, uh, one morning and find that your mayor was black and
38:13your city council was black or, uh, and your school board was black. And that gave you the illusion of
38:18political power. And as a result of it, our politicians, I think, over-promised and, uh,
38:25those individuals who follow them, uh, over-expected. Uh, I think now what we're seeing is that once we
38:31begin to put, uh, electoral politics and politicians in their proper perspective, we'll find that we
38:39really do have to return to building strong community organizations. We really do have to
38:45rely on the organizers because these things don't really work unless you have these strong, active,
38:51vital organizations outside them. Government doesn't really work. Government doesn't work.
38:55The bureaucracy doesn't work in the interest of people unless you have people organized outside it.
39:00Now that's what we're just beginning, I think, to understand.
39:06There are signs that Ron's idea is gaining ground. While there aren't very many, some groups are trying to
39:12organize without the government. Early in the morning, the produce here is distributed to five
39:17states. Members of the community for creative nonviolence come to collect what's thrown away.
39:24They try and beat the hog raisers. Sometimes they don't.
39:27Hundreds receive the food at churches such as this one, Calvary Methodist Church, just off 14th Street.
39:47Mitch Schneider believes that staying far from government is necessary.
39:52We understand that we have a responsibility to meet the needs of our neighbors, but we understand
39:57equally well that we have probably a greater responsibility to address the sources, the
40:05roots of their pain and their misery, and quite often that's the policies and the programs and
40:11the priorities of the government. Good energetic people should use their strength and their energy
40:15to stay as far away from government as they can because it's a perverting kind of influence.
40:20I mean, we would not take money from the government if they delivered it in a brown paper bag in the
40:25middle of the night. I say that in honesty. If we knew it came from the government, we'd give it back
40:28in the middle of the night in a brown paper bag. You can't become involved with something that is
40:35that's dead. You can't deal with a dead institution with a twisted institution and come out whole or
40:39come out alive. The government is a bureaucratic maze and mess. It has not the capacity, nor does it have
40:47the inclination to do what it is supposed to do, and I'm not even sure it can. You don't see trash all
40:55over the lawns anymore. Unlike Mitch, community organizer Kimi Gray is on the city payroll. Even
41:01though she has misgivings about politicians, she works the government for all it's worth. Kimi always
41:08talks about the ways poor people can control their own destiny. Most of her work takes place in public
41:14housing projects. Projects, she says, that like the one she lives in, should and can be managed by
41:21residents. We still owe the people $196, $1,000 and some odd dollars, and we just pay them half of it
41:30the other day. Nobody agrees with anybody. I think the most unique thing about our problems, we organize
41:36together. Everybody has input. Everybody's a part of the decision making. Everybody's ideas are as good as
41:44anyone else's. No place is too tough or difficult for Kimi's organizing efforts, and Valley Green
41:51Public Housing Project in southeast Washington is one of the toughest. A lot of times, we allow so
41:57many negative things to take place in our communities, and we don't set our own standards of how we want
42:04to live. We allow our folks to do that. Do you think this community is organized enough to have a meeting
42:09and set standards and raise them and say, now, this is the way we're going to live in public housing,
42:14and it's not going to be any other way? Yes. And anyone that can't live by these rules and regulations,
42:18then they're going out of here. That's right. You're right about that.
42:21Hey, Mr. Kimi. Hey, Mr. Kimi. Yes, Mr. Kimi. Look at them saying, they have, they have their picks
42:25around here. They have their picks around here. They have their picks around here. Look at them saying,
42:29we know them saying everybody's job is slack. You know what I'm saying? They have their picks around here. Who can work
42:35who? I ain't going to work. Okay, but why aren't you on one of the committees to determine that?
42:38What committee? And if you don't like the leadership around here, why aren't you running to change it?
42:42See, some of us only come out when we want to receive, okay? Some of us come out to give,
42:48and that's the difference. Public housing quote-unquote so-called leaders, city-wide representatives,
42:54what usually happens is that they are courted in co-op by the mayor, by the public housing
43:00administrators. So what happens is that they're usually welfare recipients of very low education
43:05levels. So what they do is that they are offered nice jobs. They move out of the family properties
43:14to a newer complex or a home or something, you know, scattered sites, and they rewarded their toll
43:19for their good deeds they have done for the public housing residents, when in reality, they are being
43:25paid off. Now, once you get hired into the government in housing, you can't fight the enemy
43:30from inside. So once they get you on payroll, and you sign your little 171 form and give it to them,
43:36and they do the personal action, they got you. So there's no more out there saying,
43:40we want hot water, we want heat, we want better management, because then you're on their payroll.
43:49This motel is a temporary shelter for 500 homeless people, mostly single women and their children.
43:55Despite the best intentions, neither Marion's government nor activists like Kimmy can help
44:01the thousands of other homeless in Washington. These people seem destined to remain imprisoned
44:07by their poverty. It's a very depressing kind of a situation. I mean, we've got people who have been
44:14here since July and August, and a lot of our job is to try to keep people motivated and keep their
44:21spirits up and assist them, basically, in trying to find housing. For a lot of people, it's going to be
44:27next impossible for us to find housing for, and we realize that. It's never gotten to the point where
44:32we have the large numbers that we have now. Every day, I'm either looking or I'm calling. I'm trying to,
44:38since I've been in here, trying to find housing. But it's just very hard. The people here in the district
44:43do not care about the poor. They want the poor people in one section of town, and they want you to stay
44:48there. There's no such thing as family housing in the Northwest area. I see now that it's still
44:52going to be hard because they haven't found me any place yet. I haven't found any place, so
44:56I don't know what I'm going to do. Whether they're going to let me stay here, or whether they're going
44:59to put me out, put me in another shelter. I don't know what they're going to do. Well, we're still
45:03homeless. You see what I'm saying? You know, we got, we have shelter, we have three meals a day,
45:09but it's not home. It's not an environment you want to raise your children in. It's not a place you want to live
45:14for months. You know, it's almost like a prison. Both Ivanhoe and Cortland Cox acknowledge that
45:22in the system we have now, there will always be people trapped at the bottom. If you're saying
45:28that we as a people are failing to meet the, the needs of our broad community base, you know,
45:39well, the answer is that of course we are. You know, poverty is worse today than it was ever
45:45before. You know, the gap, the income gap between blacks and whites is broader. If in a capitalist society,
45:52there's always going to be a group of people on the bottom. I mean, it's built on that. And that in,
46:02in many instances, the government will not do anything for them. Sometimes the government
46:10will do things to them, like put them in jail. I think this government's struggle is to
46:19with or without resources say there are some minimum thresholds, the right to shelter, the mayor talks
46:24about all the time, the right to a job, the mayor talks about all the time, more so than the other mayor,
46:29I think, out in the streets where people are. And he's commanding his government to help him figure
46:37out a way how to do it. I believe they want change, but part of what needs radical changing
46:46is the system they've entered. The troops for that are not likely to come from government.
46:52I went to John Wilson to see if he was feeling the heat of outside pressure.
46:56Who's pushing you, John? Who's 18, 19, 20 years old when you were in the South, pushing you the same
47:06way you push, say, the NAACP? That's what scares me. There's nobody, I don't think. Young people don't
47:13seem to be interested in this arena at all. I don't see, okay, when we were 17, 18 years old,
47:21we were really pushing the established community, established blacks, and established whites,
47:26truthfully. We were pushing them desperately, and they resented the push, too.
47:33But they also gave us a sense of reasoning and shared a lot of their wisdom with us, too.
47:42There are not that many young people at this point that I see are pushing anybody politically in this
47:47government. I wonder who's going to replace us sometimes.
47:59I'm frightened that every single person in this story says that there is a growing class of people
48:05in our cities that government can do little to help. As we have become wealthier, they have become poorer.
48:11I'm saddened that this is now matter-of-factly accepted as natural. Government, we've been told,
48:18can do little, even an especially sensitive government like Mayor Barry's. So I keep asking
48:24myself why Marion, Ivanhoe, and all my friends are in government, and why they haven't been more
48:30effective in helping the people who are at the center of their concern. Part of the answer has to do with the
48:37nature of the governmental process. It's not designed for poor people. Part of the answer has to do with
48:43the way power changes people. Its seductions can narrow vision. It's probably too early to judge Mayor
48:50Barry and his administration, but one thing is obviously missing. Pressure.
48:59Twenty years ago, SNCC's challenge wasn't just to an oppressive white power structure.
49:05It was also to a black establishment we felt was too cautious. The pressure was essential.
49:12There are all too few younger versions of Marion and Ivanhoe. In the communities of the poor,
49:18I don't see the strong men coming on, getting stronger, pushing and testing and organizing.
49:24Without them, even the best of intentions won't change a thing.
49:35The problems raised in this report confront every major American city and they also apply to a whole
49:49generation from the 50s and 60s who face the conflict of dreams and ideals up against the realities of
49:55politics. Can government alone deal with the problems of poverty? That question is of special
50:01concern to blacks in this country. So I brought together Benjamin Hooks, executive director of the
50:08NAACP, Eugene Rivers, who's at Harvard but works in Boston's black communities, and Charlie Cobb. We screened
50:15the film for them and it sparked a debate started by Eugene Rivers, who questions the role of what he calls
50:22the black elite. And so what I'm saying is that at this stage of the game it's not simply black versus
50:29white. There's the additional factor of conflicting material interests within the black community so that
50:36at certain points the interests of the black underclass may be in diametric opposition to the interests of
50:41a Gibson in Newark or Coleman Young in Detroit or a Marion Barry in DC. So we have different classes with
50:49different agendas and different interests intersecting with more clarity than we've perhaps had before
50:56in history. Are you saying that it does not make a difference to have gone through all the period of
51:02time that SNCC organized and the NAACP organized and that we have this point now where there are blacks
51:09that can do television programs, blacks that can hold office. What difference does that make to the poor
51:15black citizens? Are you saying it makes no sense? I'm saying that that's that's a kind of cathartic
51:20symbolism which does not translate into putting food on the table of providing jobs. And I'd say
51:26something else. On one level it forces the illusion that there is a degree of opportunity which simply
51:33does not exist when you look at the numbers. We've got over 2,000 black elected officials and in Newark
51:39where you have a large black population of Detroit, they can't deliver the goods. Bottom line. We have
51:45got to get black people mobilized in communities. Cleveland has a white mayor. Cincinnati has a white mayor
51:52and they have joblessness. Why don't you say that white people have got to be getting organized? My concern is
51:56black people. If you look at it and analogize it, the fact is there are 12 million unemployed people in
52:05America according to the records. And the white people occupy most of the political jobs. If politics
52:13alone could solve joblessness then there would be no white people unemployed and that is not true. There
52:17is a limit to what political power can accomplish. What seems to be evolving here is that I seem to
52:26understand you to be saying that those blacks who have made it in the sense of white America, made it into
52:32politics, made it into the media, made it into whatever. Those people don't reach back enough
52:38and help the poor blacks in the community. There is a black elite. Is that correct? That's generally true.
52:46We could use the example of Harvard University where you have a sizeable black population. If black
52:51students at Harvard took the rhetoric about being opposed to racism and injustice and inequality and
52:56translated that logically they would spend less of their time engaging in a lot of frivolous social
53:01activity and working in the black community. But that doesn't happen. Why? Because they're not really
53:07interested in doing that. Their interest is this, to penetrate the private sector, get into corporations
53:12and say that black people benefit vicariously because I'm living up in a sweet penthouse, living good,
53:18having mine. I would have to do with Eugene that not enough of black people who have made it have
53:25manifested an interest in the cause. I have no problem saying that. You kind of talked about that from
53:29NAACP. In other words, NAACP, an organization that is the largest that we have, only has 400,000
53:36members. Out of 30 million black people, it seems to me we should have more members. Or, or, or,
53:42if we don't have more members, then they ought to join Eugene or somebody, Jesse, or it doesn't,
53:48in other words, we ought to be somewhere. We ought not to be on the sidelines. That's, I agree with that.
53:52In summation, what type of advice would you give to Mr. Hooks? If I couldn't get the NAACP to focus on
54:04the issues that they should be focusing on to foster authentic economic democracy in the United States,
54:14to struggle for that, I'd resign. Mr. Hooks. Using your influence, get your friends and neighbors to vote
54:19intelligently, to be articulate, to belong to some kind of organization, whatever it is,
54:24in an organized way that's trying to affect change in this country. And, Charlie, you would say what?
54:29It's the question of crime, drugs, and physical security. All right. That is the thing I see,
54:36at least in urban areas, that is most corrosive to life. Now, that's what I'd be organizing against.
54:44I would be attempting to build, within the black community or, in fact, any other community,
54:51an independent political institution that could begin to articulate the varied demands and concerns
55:00of people, both in relationship to existing political institutions and existing economic institutions.
55:08That conversation went on long after we stopped taping.
55:11You know, 23 years ago, it was perhaps easier to identify the problems. It was basically black
55:17versus white, massive, fought out in the streets. Now it cuts across racial lines. Through mass
55:24communication, we talk it out in our own living rooms. Then the pressure was on the establishment to
55:30change laws. Now the pressure's on all of us to make those laws work to all our good.
55:36Next week, as Secretary of State George Shultz returns from China, Frontline travels to the
55:44other China, Taiwan. It's been called the ticking time bomb for U.S.-China relations.
55:51We've patrolled its waters, armed it, and made it a major foreign policy concern for Americans. But what's
55:57the Chinese perspective? We call the program A Chinese Affair. It is next week on Frontline. I'm Jessica Savage.
56:17I'm Jessica CF. It is next week on the international list.
56:24We've met Steve beach atte boats. ...
56:46¶¶
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