- 2 days ago
A collaboration with the BBC looks into how U.S. intelligence relied on Klaus Barbie in their anti-Communist efforts, and whether the government was culpable in protecting the former Gestapo officer from being brought to justice for his crimes in World War II.
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00:23Inside this van is the ex-Nazi they call the Butcher of Lyon.
00:30He murdered, tortured to death, 4,000 French.
00:36But U.S. intelligence agents later hired him to do their dirty work.
00:40A very shrewd, extremely intelligent, very capable, professional.
00:48Tonight, on Frontline, the story of Klaus Barbie and the American connection.
01:00From the network of public television stations,
01:05a presentation of KCTS Seattle,
01:07WNAT New York,
01:09WPBT Miami,
01:11WTVS Detroit,
01:13and WGBH Boston,
01:15this is Frontline
01:17with Jessica Savage.
01:20Klaus Barbie,
01:24one of France's most hated Nazi war criminals,
01:27was finally returned to France five months ago to face justice.
01:30But some of the French are worried,
01:32for when he is finally brought to trial,
01:34it could raise embarrassing, incriminating evidence
01:36against many French
01:37who collaborated with the Nazis during that war.
01:40And for us,
01:42it's the discovery of Barbie's post-war work
01:44for American intelligence agencies,
01:47which now raises equally troubling questions.
01:50Tonight, you will see Americans who hired,
01:53worked with,
01:54hid,
01:55protected,
01:55and then finally helped Klaus Barbie escape from Europe
01:58to South America.
02:01Klaus Barbie
02:01and the American connection.
02:04Produced for the BBC
02:05by Tom Bauer.
02:15This year,
02:16on June 17th,
02:18the death of Jean Moulin
02:19was commemorated by President Mitterrand of France.
02:22It was the 40th anniversary
02:24of the death of this great hero
02:26of the French Resistance.
02:28Moulin was tortured by Klaus Barbie
02:30and soon afterward,
02:32he died.
02:35The American flag
02:40is a reminder
02:41of wartime comradeship.
02:43The fact that after the war,
02:45Barbie was allowed
02:45to sell his sinister skills
02:47to the Americans
02:48is tactfully ignored
02:49by the French,
02:51on this day at least.
02:57A member of Mitterrand's socialist government
02:59is Régis Ghebrey.
03:02We know that
03:03Barbie is the responsible
03:06for the death of Moulin.
03:09He tortured him personally
03:10and probably killed him.
03:13Besides of that,
03:15he killed a lot of people
03:16from the Resistance
03:18and a lot of Jewish people
03:20in Lyon.
03:21So,
03:23it was a kind of
03:26compromise of honor
03:30from the French government
03:33to have him back.
03:35In February,
03:38Klaus Barbie,
03:39alias Klaus Altman,
03:40was arrested in Bolivia.
03:42Charged with crimes
03:43against humanity,
03:44he'd avoided justice
03:45for 37 years.
03:47But when interviewed
03:48in his jail in La Paz,
03:49Barbie seemed confident
03:50that once again,
03:51his friendships
03:52with Latin American dictators
03:54and his close connections
03:55to American intelligence
03:56would help him escape.
03:59Believing he might be
04:00extradited to Germany,
04:02not to France,
04:03Barbie denied
04:04most of the charges
04:05against him.
04:08I don't have any idea,
04:10but they're things
04:12of the war
04:13that have happened
04:14for 38 years.
04:1738 years.
04:17So,
04:19outside of this,
04:20as a citizen of Bolivia,
04:21and the laws here,
04:24all these issues
04:26have to be
04:28to keep the laws
04:31of Bolivia.
04:31All that is prescribed.
04:34Now,
04:36Germany wants
04:36to be extradited
04:37from a foreign issue
04:40to Germany.
04:43Do you consider
04:44that it's possible
04:45to be extradited?
04:46I don't know,
04:47but according to him,
04:49I can only refer
04:51to the lawyer,
04:52to the lawyer,
04:53to the lawyer,
04:54Dr. Carillon,
04:56he says it's absurd.
05:01Barbie's confidence
05:02was misplaced.
05:03He was flown
05:04not to Germany,
05:05but to France,
05:06and they took him
05:07to the very jail
05:08where he had once
05:09been the Gestapo's
05:10chief interrogator
05:10and torturer.
05:12La Paz in Bolivia
05:15has been just one
05:16of the places
05:17visited by American
05:18government officers
05:19this year
05:19as they investigate
05:21the connections
05:21between House Barbie
05:22and the USA.
05:26Special prosecutor
05:27Alan Ryan
05:28of the Justice Department
05:29is trying to untangle
05:30the threads
05:31which tied
05:31the Butcher of Lyon
05:32to America's
05:33intelligence agencies.
05:35As he does so,
05:36it is becoming clear
05:37that the re-arrest
05:38of Barbie
05:38will open painful wounds
05:40not only in France
05:41but here in America.
05:45Eugene Kolb,
05:47a retired intelligence agent
05:49who now lives in Maine.
05:51He says Barbie
05:52was allowed to work
05:52for U.S. intelligence
05:54even though he was known
05:55to be a wanted war criminal.
05:58The only thing
05:59we knew about Barbie
06:00and where we felt embarrassed
06:03was that he was
06:05an ex-Gestapo official
06:07and that was
06:08an acute embarrassment
06:10number one
06:12simply because
06:12of the appropriate
06:14attached to the Gestapo
06:16and number two
06:17the clear-cut violation
06:19of the automatic arrest category
06:20and the automatic arrest category
06:23was still in force.
06:24He should have been interned
06:25and he wasn't.
06:33Barbie's military career
06:34had begun in 1935
06:36when he joined
06:37the SS security police,
06:40the Gestapo.
06:42With the German occupation
06:43of France,
06:44this dedicated Nazi
06:45was given control of Lyon.
06:47He had two main tasks
06:48to round up Jews
06:49for deportation
06:50and to crush
06:51the French resistance.
06:53To break the resistance,
07:04Barbie was given command
07:05of a special SS killer squad
07:07who were responsible
07:08for the deaths
07:09of perhaps
07:1020,000 Frenchmen.
07:16In their annual reports
07:18to Berlin,
07:19Barbie's superiors
07:20were full of praise.
07:21He was the very soul
07:23of the Gestapo
07:24and according to another,
07:27he was the dynamo
07:28of the department.
07:30Raymond Obrock,
07:31a surviving member
07:32of the French resistance,
07:34confirms the Gestapo's opinion
07:35of Barbie's ruthlessness.
07:36I think from their point of view,
07:40he was one of their good men.
07:41He was surely efficient.
07:44He had no moral
07:46or mental restraint.
07:48He had no hesitation
07:49to kill.
07:51Probably lacked it.
07:53And therefore,
07:54if you accept
07:56their general policy line,
07:58he was one of their good men.
08:00And he was one of our
08:03very, very serious enemies.
08:07Barbie's tentacles
08:08reached out
08:08in all directions
08:09from Lyon.
08:10His reign of terror
08:11over the French countryside
08:12reached to the north
08:13and the east,
08:14into the Jura Mountains.
08:16This area
08:17was the stronghold
08:18of the Maki,
08:19the underground French soldiers
08:20who waged vigorous guerrilla warfare
08:22against the German occupation.
08:24At the beginning of 1944,
08:28the tiny village of Évoges
08:30was terrorized
08:31as Barbie's Gestapo men
08:32swept in
08:33to root out partisans
08:34and their civilian protectors.
08:36In Évoges,
08:37seven villagers
08:38were summarily shot down
08:40after Barbie discovered
08:41an illegal store of flour,
08:43perhaps intended
08:44to feed the Maki fighters.
08:46One resistance man
08:47who was caught in a raid
08:49on a doctor's office
08:50was Ramona Brock,
08:51interviewed here
08:52by reporter Jeremy Paxman.
08:54When the house
08:55was surrounded
08:56by the Gestapo group,
09:00that group was headed
09:01personally by Barbie.
09:04All of them
09:05were in civilian clothes
09:06with submachine guns
09:08and Barbie was giving orders.
09:13All the people,
09:14including the doctor's patients,
09:17were handcuffed,
09:19taken into cars
09:21to Gestapo headquarters
09:22and then to the Gestapo jails.
09:25Were you interrogated by Barbie?
09:28I was interrogated by Barbie.
09:31Were you tortured?
09:33Well, I was...
09:35I was beaten.
09:36If the word torture means
09:40the bathtub
09:41or electricity,
09:43that was not the case.
09:45I was beaten
09:45by the man himself
09:47with
09:48sticks
09:53and whips
09:55and pieces of wood
09:57and
09:58kicks of his feet
10:01and
10:01and
10:01and
10:01and
10:02and
10:02and
10:02so on.
10:02Barbie personally?
10:03Barbie personally
10:04and
10:04he seemed to like it.
10:07He seemed to like it
10:08and
10:09I fainted.
10:10Just by nature,
10:12I didn't know that.
10:13I, under those
10:14strikes,
10:16strokes,
10:16I fainted
10:17and
10:17two or three times
10:19I saw
10:20a young lady
10:21close to him
10:22and
10:23probably
10:23he was giving
10:24evidence of his
10:25strength and
10:27virility.
10:27He liked it.
10:29And there was a woman
10:30present?
10:30And there was a woman
10:31present at least
10:33two or three times
10:35during those
10:36interrogations.
10:37And she appeared to be
10:38physically intimate
10:39with Barbie?
10:41Well,
10:42she was very close
10:42to him,
10:43no doubt.
10:44The most important
10:46resistance leader
10:46trapped by Barbie
10:47was Jean Moulin,
10:49the underground
10:50coordinator for
10:51southern France.
10:52The charge
10:54against Barbie
10:54is that he tortured
10:56Moulin
10:56to the point of death.
10:59¿Usted tuvo que ver
11:00algo que con la muerte
11:01de Jean Moulin?
11:03No,
11:04de Moulin con la muerte
11:05no.
11:06Con su captura,
11:07con su captura,
11:08sÃ.
11:09Lógico.
11:10Pero no con la muerte
11:11porque yo entregué
11:12a Jean Moulin
11:13como saben
11:14perfectamente
11:15los franceses
11:15de gobierno de Francia
11:16a ParÃs.
11:19But witnesses
11:20who saw Moulin
11:21being interrogated
11:22in this cell,
11:23say Barbie
11:24tortured the life
11:25out of him.
11:25And I trouve
11:28sur un vent de pierre
11:29devant la prison
11:30Jean Moulin
11:32étendu
11:33avec
11:34une plaie profonde
11:36à la tête,
11:37des étymos
11:37sur tout le visage,
11:39râlant
11:40et manifestement
11:41mourant
11:41dans un état
11:42épouvantable.
11:44Nous étions
11:44assez habitués
11:45Ã avoir
11:46des camarades
11:47battus
11:47pour savoir
11:48ce que cela signifiait.
11:50J'ai essayé
11:51de le réveiller,
11:52il a ouvert un oeil,
11:54il m'a dit
11:54quelques mots
11:55en anglais
11:55que je n'ai pas compris,
11:56d'abord parce que
11:57mon anglais n'est pas bon
11:58et ensuite
11:59parce qu'il brodouillait
12:00et puis il a refermé
12:02les yeux définitivement.
12:04Et il m'a remonté
12:05dans ma cellule
12:06et je n'ai plus revu
12:07Jean Moulin
12:08et personne
12:08ne l'a revu depuis.
12:11Alors,
12:12que faut-il en conclure ?
12:13Que Jean Moulin
12:14était torturé à mort.
12:16Je ne sais pas
12:17si le coup à la tempe
12:18a été porté
12:18par Klaus Barbie
12:19lui-même
12:20ou par un de ses adjoints,
12:21mais c'est lui
12:22qui a donné l'ordre.
12:23Par conséquent,
12:24c'est lui
12:24qui est le responsable.
12:26Et par conséquent,
12:27quand il dit
12:27qu'il a livré
12:28Barbie bien vivant
12:30à la police française,
12:32c'est une très
12:33et mauvaise plaisanterie.
12:35Barbie
12:35had succeeded
12:38in establishing
12:38a new climate
12:39of terror
12:40in the city.
12:41His fight
12:42against the resistance
12:43was rather efficient
12:45as the arrest
12:46of Ramboulin
12:47has shown,
12:48although it was
12:49mostly based
12:50on trezans
12:53from French people.
12:55His fight
12:57against the Jews
12:57was terrible.
12:59People believe
13:00that probably
13:0210,000 Jews
13:04were taken
13:04under his orders
13:06to the death camps
13:09and also in that case
13:11with the help
13:13of,
13:14pitié to say,
13:15greatly the French people.
13:16It is for his role
13:20in the mistreatment,
13:21deportation
13:21and death
13:22of thousands
13:23of French Jews
13:24that Barbie
13:24will now be tried.
13:28Few of Barbie's
13:29Jewish victims
13:30survived
13:31to give evidence
13:32against him.
13:35The peaceful hamlet
13:37of his year
13:37saw one of Barbie's
13:38most notorious acts.
13:40He deported
13:4141 Jewish children
13:42aged from 3 to 14
13:44to certain death
13:46in the gas chambers.
13:50Simone Lagrange
13:51was only 13
13:52when she was arrested
13:53by Barbie.
13:54She still carries
13:55the scars of Auschwitz.
13:56Before being deported,
13:58Barbie wanted
13:58to obtain information
13:59from her Jewish parents.
14:01When they refused
14:01to talk,
14:02the butcher of Lyon
14:03turned his attention
14:04to the girl.
14:05He approached me
14:07because I had
14:08at the time
14:09my hair very long.
14:11He was caught
14:12by the hair.
14:12He rode them
14:13like that
14:14slowly
14:14along his hands.
14:16And when he arrived
14:17at the height
14:18of the crown,
14:19he took all his strength
14:20and he repeated
14:20his question.
14:22It was the first
14:24shock with Barbie.
14:28He replied
14:29several times
14:31and every time
14:32I could not answer.
14:34He gave me
14:36some clicks
14:38and he made
14:39fall asleep
14:40and he took me
14:41from the bottom
14:41of his shoes.
14:43And finally,
14:44it happened
14:45all the day.
14:45He was a bad
14:46all the day.
14:47I had the figure
14:48completely
14:48arrachée,
14:50I had the nose
14:50fendue,
14:51the blood everywhere.
14:53I did not eat
14:54this day.
14:56And then,
14:57in the evening,
14:57it was himself
14:58who brought me
14:58to the present.
15:00He brought me
15:01to the cellule
15:02of my mother.
15:03He opened the door,
15:05he called my mother
15:06and he said,
15:06well,
15:07you can be proud
15:08of yourself.
15:10For five days,
15:11the 13-year-old girl
15:12was beaten by Barbie
15:13until she grew
15:14almost accustomed
15:15to the pain.
15:16after her interrogation,
15:37Simone Lagrange
15:38was transported
15:38to Auschwitz
15:39with her parents.
15:40There,
15:41her father
15:42was shot
15:42in front of her.
15:44Her mother,
15:44caught stealing
15:45a few discarded
15:46cabbage leaves
15:47to give to some
15:47sick women,
15:48was sent
15:49to the gas chamber.
15:49In February 1945,
16:04the three wartime
16:05allies met
16:05at Yalta
16:06to agree
16:07on how to govern
16:07a defeated
16:08post-war Germany.
16:10Many of the officials
16:11behind Roosevelt
16:11and Churchill
16:12were already afraid
16:13that Stalin's
16:14aggressive communism
16:15would spread
16:16to Western Europe.
16:17For them,
16:18communism had become
16:19a greater threat
16:20to world peace
16:21than the Germans
16:21they were rounding up.
16:27As they were captured,
16:28Hitler's elite SS troopers
16:30were identified
16:31by the blood-type marks
16:32tattooed under their arms.
16:34Klaus Barbie
16:35burned his tattoo off.
16:37When he was locked up
16:37by the British
16:38in a prisoner of war camp
16:39in Hamburg,
16:40Barbie managed
16:41to remain anonymous,
16:42just another German soldier.
16:47In 1945,
16:51the Allies
16:52divided Germany
16:53into four zones.
16:54The Americans
16:55had two main
16:56intelligence agencies,
16:57the OSS,
16:59Office of Strategic Services,
17:01and the CIC,
17:02the Counterintelligence Corps.
17:04But the OSS
17:05was disbanded
17:06just when intelligence
17:07about the Soviet zone
17:08was needed.
17:09This is when
17:14Barbie escaped
17:15from the British camp.
17:17He headed south
17:17through the shattered
17:18streets of Hamburg
17:19to the American zone.
17:21Here,
17:21Barbie found
17:22that the Americans
17:23were far more interested
17:24in up-to-date intelligence
17:26on the Russians
17:26than in weeding out
17:28Nazi war criminals.
17:29I do know
17:35that at the end
17:37of the war,
17:38we found ourselves
17:40really very,
17:42very skimpy
17:45with respect to knowledge
17:46about the Russians.
17:47This went all the way
17:49from the huge program
17:50that we put on
17:51when all the prisoners
17:51came back from Russia
17:53where the 776 MIS
17:55interrogated people
17:56for days on end.
17:57We knew very little
17:59about Russia.
17:59We knew damn little
18:00about their army.
18:01We knew very little
18:02about their tactics.
18:03We knew very little
18:04about their manuals,
18:06mode of operation,
18:07that sort of thing.
18:09So there was
18:10considerable pressure
18:10on the intelligence
18:11community
18:12to gather information.
18:15Now,
18:16whether the methodologies
18:18that were used,
18:19and we didn't think
18:20ours were any different
18:21because we were
18:21in touch with the British,
18:23we were in touch
18:24with the French,
18:24we were in touch
18:25with all sorts
18:25of intelligence.
18:26I think there was
18:27an attitude
18:31that you'd almost
18:32do anything
18:33within reason
18:34to collect intelligence.
18:38In 1946,
18:40Dale Garvey,
18:41CIC operations chief,
18:43issued an arrest alert
18:44for Klaus Barbie.
18:46Barbie had been hiding,
18:47but now,
18:48in an amazing turnaround,
18:50was saved
18:50because the Americans
18:51were now chasing
18:52communists,
18:53not Nazis.
18:54Barbie was recruited
18:56as an assistant
18:57intelligence agent.
18:58We treated him
19:00very well.
19:00We went overboard
19:01to be nice
19:02to that guy.
19:03I know when I first
19:04met him in Kempton,
19:07the house was a beautiful,
19:08nice little home
19:09that he lived in,
19:11and he had good
19:12leather suitcases.
19:14All his equipment
19:14went on a truck,
19:16and I moved him
19:17and his partners
19:18over to Augsburg.
19:20And he felt totally
19:22at ease.
19:24I think I was very nice
19:26to Barbie.
19:27We went out drinking beer
19:28once in a while.
19:29I'd go to this new hotel
19:31we opened up.
19:32It was an international
19:33commercial hotel
19:34open in Augsburg.
19:35He was never outlandish.
19:39He never drank hard liquor.
19:40He'd drink a beer.
19:41There were still some
19:44in the American command
19:45who were wary
19:46of using Barbie.
19:48Earl Browning
19:48had succeeded
19:49Dale Garvey
19:50as operations chief
19:51in Frankfurt
19:51for the whole CIC.
19:54Intelligence work
19:55in the American zone
19:55was divided
19:56into regions.
19:58Browning took charge
19:59of them all,
20:00including Region 4
20:01in Munich,
20:02which was now
20:03employing Barbie.
20:06Browning set up
20:07a register
20:07of all informers
20:08working for the Americans
20:09and found the name
20:11Klaus Barbie.
20:14Colonel Browning
20:14recalls his reaction
20:16for reporter
20:17Margaret Jay.
20:18This was an astonishing
20:20thing to me
20:22and to various other
20:22people in my office
20:23because we all
20:25recognized that this
20:27is a man that we
20:27had been looking for.
20:29Still not a major
20:30personality,
20:31but still someone
20:32who we had been
20:33on the lookout for.
20:35And we were surprised
20:36because it came
20:37from an area
20:38where my predecessor
20:40who had issued
20:41the original order
20:41was now the commander.
20:44And that was
20:45a double shock
20:46that he who had
20:47ordered us to
20:48arrest Barbie
20:50was now protecting him
20:52and suggesting
20:53his use as an informant.
20:54The same man
20:55who had told you
20:56he was the Gestapo chief?
20:59Well, yes,
20:59who had said
21:00that he was wanted
21:02and we shouldn't
21:03try to arrest him.
21:05Did you think
21:06that the people
21:06in Region 4
21:07had a different
21:08sense of him?
21:10Well, they had
21:10been working with him
21:11and apparently
21:12they had a lot
21:14of respect
21:15for his ability
21:16and a lot
21:16of confidence
21:17in what he was
21:17producing.
21:19So he apparently
21:20was very highly
21:22thought of by them
21:23and very useful
21:24to them.
21:26So what did you do
21:27when you found this out?
21:29Well, we ordered
21:30him to be arrested
21:31and eventually
21:36he was arrested.
21:37And what happened
21:38to him?
21:39Well, he was kept
21:41in custody
21:43and interrogated
21:44over a period
21:44of several months,
21:46two or three months
21:47and then he was
21:49released.
21:50And yet they gave
21:51the go-ahead
21:51to use him again?
21:53Well,
21:54he had been
21:57in effect
21:58cleared
21:59by his release
22:00from the European
22:02Command Interrogation
22:03Center.
22:04So the people
22:05in Region 4
22:07felt that there
22:09was no real reason
22:10that he shouldn't
22:11be used.
22:13Major Jabringhaus,
22:15Barbie's control
22:15officer,
22:16moved him
22:17to a larger home.
22:18Barbie's status
22:19among Americans
22:20in Augsburg
22:20grew and grew.
22:22Well, I set him
22:23up in the house,
22:24I visited them,
22:25they wanted to visit
22:27their families,
22:28I gave them
22:29weekend passes,
22:30I always made
22:31one of them stay
22:32when the other
22:33one left,
22:34I set up an office
22:36downtown
22:37where we met
22:38every morning
22:39at 9 o'clock,
22:40we hired a German
22:41secretary,
22:42which,
22:43a girl that was
22:44probably known
22:45to them
22:45because they had
22:46to clear her,
22:48and they reported
22:50there and I met
22:50them every morning
22:51and we walk
22:52into the office
22:53and I said,
22:54well, you got
22:54anything hot today
22:55for us
22:56and I would
22:57translate these
22:58reports and send
22:58them onto our
23:00headquarters in
23:01Munich.
23:02In 1948,
23:04the Russians
23:05blockaded Berlin.
23:06The West responded
23:07with an airlift.
23:09America's fears
23:10about Russian
23:10aggression seemed
23:11justified,
23:12and the intelligence
23:13fight against
23:14the communists
23:15stepped up.
23:20U.S. Major
23:21Eugene Kolb
23:21employed Barbie
23:22in a joint
23:23Western effort
23:24to weaken
23:25the communists.
23:26Our principal
23:26target,
23:27as assigned
23:28from headquarters,
23:30was the
23:30penetration
23:31of the
23:32Bavarian
23:32Communist Party.
23:34And how did
23:34Barbie help you?
23:36Barbie helped
23:37us by
23:38coming in
23:40in some cases
23:42with direct
23:43information
23:44from some
23:45contacts he had
23:46here and there
23:47about what was
23:48going on
23:48in the party.
23:49Barbie's special
23:52skills as an
23:52interrogator were
23:53valued in this
23:54operation.
23:55His professionalism
23:56was admired by
23:57his American
23:57boss.
23:58A very shrewd,
24:00extremely
24:00intelligent,
24:01very capable
24:02professional
24:04who knew
24:06how to
24:07extract
24:09information
24:10through
24:11interviews,
24:12interrogations,
24:13etc.,
24:14who could
24:15single out
24:16strengths and
24:18weaknesses
24:18of certain
24:19individuals.
24:23That, in
24:24general, in
24:24short, a
24:25really competent,
24:26experienced
24:27professional.
24:29What made
24:29him good?
24:31Experience, I
24:32suppose.
24:33Training, perhaps.
24:34After all, he'd
24:35been with the
24:36Cripo, the
24:37Criminal
24:37Pulitzer for
24:38years, I
24:39think in the
24:40Rhineland, etc.
24:41Simply the
24:41tricks that you
24:42pick up through
24:44basic experience.
24:46And he's
24:47good.
24:47He showed
24:48experience.
24:51I'm sure a
24:52good deal of
24:52experience during
24:53the war years,
24:54and a good deal
24:54of experience
24:55down there in
24:55Lyon.
24:57Of course, some
24:58of that experience
24:59involved using
25:00torture.
25:01So the
25:02stories have
25:03it.
25:03I don't know.
25:04I wouldn't say
25:05it's impossible.
25:06Of course not.
25:07I don't really
25:08know.
25:09But certainly,
25:10he struck me
25:13as a kind of
25:13interrogator who
25:14didn't need
25:17torture.
25:19A good
25:19interrogator will
25:20shy away from
25:21it and torture
25:22it.
25:22And he was a
25:22good interrogator.
25:24Did you believe
25:26that he hadn't
25:26used torture?
25:28No.
25:29We probably
25:29suspected on
25:30one or two
25:31occasions he
25:32might have used
25:33the rubber hose
25:34technique, but we
25:35didn't know.
25:36He, of course,
25:36denied all of
25:37that, and as
25:39we had, we
25:41were somewhat
25:42skeptical of his
25:43complete denial.
25:44But that he
25:45was, uh, relied
25:47principally on
25:48torture, I just
25:48didn't believe it
25:50at the time, and
25:51I frankly don't
25:52believe it today.
25:53But what do you
25:54think about all
25:55the evidence that's
25:56come out from
25:56people like the
25:57French Resistance
25:58about the really
25:59formidable torture
26:00he used, electric
26:02shock treatment,
26:03the ice baths,
26:04the stories about
26:06stabbing people
26:08in the breast?
26:09I'm very
26:10skeptical of them.
26:11I'm just
26:12skeptical of them.
26:14Sergeant Herbert
26:15Bechtold worked
26:16under Major
26:16Kolb.
26:17He became
26:18Barbie's new
26:18control officer,
26:19and they became
26:20friendly.
26:21Bechtold was
26:22born in Germany.
26:24We arranged to
26:25have a get
26:27together at
26:28one of the
26:29local bar,
26:33night clubs,
26:34so to speak,
26:34such as it was.
26:37It wasn't much
26:37of an establishment.
26:40We met there,
26:41we had dinner
26:41together, and
26:42we drank a
26:46bottle of champagne,
26:48and we started
26:50talking about the
26:52more irrelevant
26:53things, you know,
26:55the things that
26:56well, what
26:57interests you in
26:58life, and what
27:00makes you tick.
27:00that, that then
27:06really, I think it
27:07was a test on his
27:08part.
27:09He wanted to see,
27:10would I be
27:11amenable, first of
27:12all, to accept an
27:13invitation with him,
27:15to be seen with
27:16him, and secondly,
27:19how do I relate to
27:21the type of German
27:24social function or
27:25approaches that he
27:28was willing to
27:29offer?
27:30So, Barbie was
27:30checking you out?
27:31Yes.
27:32He was, he was,
27:34I was passing
27:35my stuff.
27:37You passed the
27:37test?
27:38I passed the
27:39test, I found,
27:39yes.
27:49While the
27:49Americans had
27:50found new enemies
27:51and new friends,
27:52the French remained
27:53determined to punish
27:54German war criminals.
27:56Barbie was high on
27:57their list of
27:58wanted men.
28:12Requests for
28:13information met
28:14with blank silence
28:14from the Americans
28:15in Germany.
28:17Barbie had become
28:18property to be
28:19protected, his
28:20past irrelevant.
28:21The years in
28:22France were just
28:23part of the
28:24wartime past.
28:27We exchanged
28:28information.
28:30He told his
28:31war stories, I
28:32told mine.
28:34What were his
28:35war stories?
28:36He talked about
28:37some of the
28:39atrocities that
28:41were committed
28:41against the
28:42German troops
28:43and the reaction
28:45that resulted
28:46from them.
28:47Did he talk
28:48about his
28:48methods?
28:49there was a
28:55mention
28:56at one time
28:58we
28:58conversation
29:03came up
29:04about forced
29:05interrogation,
29:06the use of
29:06forced interrogations
29:07and he
29:11expanded a little
29:13bit on the
29:14point that
29:15there are times
29:17when forced
29:17interrogations
29:18are imperative
29:19because you have
29:20a deadline
29:23to meet
29:23and unless you
29:24have positive
29:26results
29:26it can have
29:29disastrous
29:30consequences.
29:30When he said
29:32forced
29:32interrogation
29:33did he mean
29:34torture?
29:35He said
29:36that there are
29:37situations
29:38when forced
29:39interrogations
29:41are necessary
29:43in order to
29:44obtain the
29:46desired results
29:47in time.
29:48Period.
29:49No further.
29:51And did you
29:52agree?
29:52Yes.
29:57Bechtold was
29:57convinced that
29:58Barbie's sources
29:59were uniquely
30:00useful.
30:01He didn't care
30:01that Barbie's
30:02network was
30:03entirely
30:03ex-SS men.
30:05The type
30:06of information
30:06that we
30:07wanted,
30:07quickly wanted
30:08sometimes,
30:09could only be
30:09had through
30:10somebody that
30:11had a thorough
30:12understanding
30:13of police
30:14techniques
30:14and procedures.
30:17What did
30:17you feel like
30:18though dealing
30:19with all the
30:19time with
30:20ex-Gestapo
30:21men and
30:21ex-SS men?
30:23There were
30:23some nasty
30:24ones and
30:24there were
30:24some good
30:25ones.
30:26Just like
30:26in any
30:26other walk
30:27of life.
30:29What was
30:29the morality
30:30of using
30:31a former
30:31Gestapo
30:32officer who
30:33was using
30:34exclusively
30:34SS officers
30:36as sources
30:37on behalf
30:37of the
30:38American
30:38government?
30:43What
30:44morality?
30:49Who
30:49knows
30:50better
30:50how to
31:00judge
31:00these
31:00people
31:01than
31:01one
31:01who
31:02has
31:02been
31:02associated
31:03with
31:03them?
31:04he
31:10certainly
31:12would.
31:13You mean
31:14Barbie's
31:15judgment
31:15of them?
31:16Yes.
31:18You
31:18would
31:18you trust
31:19Barbie's
31:20judgment?
31:20Yes.
31:25Despite
31:26his record
31:27of atrocity
31:27in Lyon?
31:28I have
31:30no knowledge
31:31of his
31:31record of
31:31atrocity
31:32in Lyon.
31:33Well,
31:33why do
31:34you think
31:34the French
31:34wanted him?
31:35They wanted
31:36to talk
31:36to him.
31:37Let's
31:41wait what
31:42the trial
31:43brings out.
31:44Looking
31:45back,
31:46do you
31:46think it
31:47was
31:47morally
31:47right to
31:48use
31:48Barbie
31:49as an
31:49American
31:49agent
31:50in
31:50Germany?
31:55I'm not
31:56in a
31:56position to
31:57pass
31:57judgment
31:57on that.
31:58Why
31:58not?
31:58You
32:02are
32:02now
32:03doing
32:07the
32:07same
32:08thing
32:08that
32:09other
32:09churches
32:10have
32:10done
32:10at
32:11various
32:11tribunals,
32:12see,
32:13asking
32:14the
32:14morality
32:14question
32:15of
32:16people
32:16who
32:17are
32:17involved
32:18in a
32:18duty
32:19routine.
32:20Are
32:21you
32:21saying
32:21that
32:22you
32:22were
32:22just
32:22obeying
32:23orders?
32:24I
32:24was
32:24just
32:24obeying
32:25orders.
32:27But
32:28that's
32:28what you
32:28had
32:28been
32:29fighting
32:29against
32:30for
32:30about
32:30five
32:31years.
32:34What
32:35am I
32:35going
32:36to go
32:37to
32:38General
32:38Eisenhower
32:39or whoever
32:40the high
32:41community
32:41says,
32:42hey,
32:42wait a
32:43minute,
32:43you're
32:44changing
32:44the rules
32:44of the
32:45game.
32:50Still
32:50anxious to
32:51avenge
32:51Jean Moulin's
32:52murder,
32:53the French
32:53were determined
32:54to bring
32:54Barbie to
32:55France.
32:56Barbie
32:56had
32:56captured
32:57Moulin
32:57at a
32:58house
32:58in
32:58suburban
32:58Lyon.
33:00Someone
33:00had
33:00betrayed
33:00him
33:01to
33:01the
33:01Gestapo.
33:03A
33:03man
33:04called
33:04René
33:04Hardy
33:05was
33:05twice
33:06tried
33:06and
33:07twice
33:07acquitted
33:07for
33:08that
33:08betrayal.
33:09Only
33:09Barbie
33:10could
33:10name
33:10the
33:10traitor.
33:15Throughout
33:16the summer
33:16of 1949,
33:17the French
33:18authorities wrote
33:19repeatedly to
33:20the Americans
33:20asking for
33:21help in
33:22finding Barbie
33:22and getting
33:23him back
33:23to France.
33:24on June
33:2512th,
33:26they wrote
33:26it would
33:27be greatly
33:28appreciated
33:29if an
33:29investigation
33:30could find
33:30out if
33:31a certain
33:31Barbie,
33:32Klaus,
33:33is residing
33:33in Munich.
33:34A month
33:35later,
33:36the request
33:36was made
33:37again.
33:40The U.S.
33:41High Commissioner
33:42in Germany
33:42was John
33:43McCloy.
33:44His office
33:44responded
33:45with blandly
33:46unhelpful
33:46replies that
33:47they knew
33:48nothing about
33:48Barbie.
33:49I think
33:54they were
33:55very clever
33:56in
33:57multiplicating
33:58the
33:59red tape
34:00obstacles
34:01and give
34:02the
34:02runaround
34:04to all
34:05the requests
34:06presented
34:06by the
34:07government
34:07so that
34:08they could
34:09gain
34:10months and
34:10months
34:11until
34:12the trials
34:12were over.
34:15McCloy
34:16knew that
34:16there could
34:17be no
34:17extradition
34:18until the
34:18French supplied
34:19Barbie's
34:20exact address
34:20but only
34:21the Americans
34:22knew his
34:23address.
34:24It was
34:24Catch-22.
34:26Our principal
34:26reason for
34:27keeping him
34:28away from
34:29the French
34:29we were
34:32highly
34:34certain
34:35with good
34:37reason
34:38that
34:39French
34:41intelligence
34:42agencies
34:44as well
34:45as the
34:45French
34:46Surete
34:46had been
34:48thoroughly
34:48penetrated
34:49by elements
34:50of the
34:50Communist Party
34:51and indeed
34:52by the
34:52KGB
34:53and we
34:55were reasonably
34:55certain
34:56that their
34:58first order
34:59of business
34:59with Barbie
35:00had they been
35:00able to get
35:01him would be
35:02first to
35:03interrogate him
35:04about our
35:05operations
35:05and about
35:07the sources
35:08that he had
35:09recruited for us
35:10and everything
35:11else would have
35:11been second
35:12place
35:12and hence
35:13we had to
35:14protect
35:15Barbie
35:15in that
35:17particular
35:17case.
35:19I do
35:20know that
35:20at one
35:21time
35:21we heard
35:24in Augsburg
35:26that a
35:27French team
35:27or a team
35:28of officers
35:28presumably from
35:29French military
35:30intelligence
35:31was in
35:32Augsburg
35:32looking for
35:34Barbie
35:34and
35:36to
35:37interrogate
35:38him
35:38and when
35:39that happened
35:40we told
35:41Barbie
35:42stay home
35:43for a while
35:44until my
35:45team departs.
35:47Did you do
35:47that on your
35:48own initiative
35:48or were you
35:49instructed to
35:50do that?
35:50No,
35:51on that
35:52occasion I
35:52believe it
35:53was on
35:53my own
35:54initiative.
35:57In
35:581950
35:59pressure from
36:00the French
36:00accelerated.
36:02Two letters
36:02were sent
36:03directly to
36:03the American
36:04High Commission
36:04demanding
36:05immediate action.
36:07The
36:07Americans
36:07phrased
36:08their replies
36:08more politely
36:09but still
36:10they didn't
36:11deliver
36:11Barbie.
36:12Suddenly
36:13the word
36:14went out
36:14from headquarters
36:15don't hand
36:16Barbie over
36:17but get
36:18rid of him.
36:19I know
36:20for a
36:23fact
36:23that
36:24throughout
36:251950
36:27and
36:28into
36:29early
36:291951
36:30there was
36:32no
36:32thought
36:33really
36:34being
36:34given
36:35to
36:36dropping
36:36Barbie.
36:37but then
36:42an
36:44absolutely
36:45sudden
36:46reversal
36:46and I
36:47might say
36:47it was a
36:48reversal
36:48within the
36:49space of a
36:50week or
36:50two
36:50and again
36:52I can only
36:53speculate
36:53that sudden
36:54reversal
36:54must have
36:55come as a
36:56result of
36:56high level
36:58pressure.
37:00Why?
37:01the interests
37:05of diplomacy
37:06shall we
37:06say
37:07the interests
37:07of our
37:07relations
37:08with the
37:08French.
37:12And I
37:12say we
37:12were
37:13obviously
37:15headquarters
37:15was conscious
37:16of those
37:17diplomatic
37:18interests
37:18to the
37:21point
37:21that
37:23they no
37:24longer
37:24wanted to
37:25use
37:25Barbie
37:25but not
37:27to the
37:28point
37:28of being
37:29willing
37:29to hand
37:30him
37:30over.
37:32The
37:33Americans
37:34sought help
37:34from their
37:35colleagues
37:35in the
37:36Central
37:36Intelligence
37:37Corps
37:37in Salzburg.
37:38They had
37:39worked out
37:39a foolproof
37:40way of
37:40getting
37:41friends of
37:41the United
37:42States
37:42away from
37:43trouble.
37:43It was
37:44aptly named
37:45the Rat
37:46Line.
37:47A secure
37:47secret escape
37:48route from
37:49Europe
37:49organized by
37:51the American
37:51Army.
37:53Klaus
37:53Barbie
37:53took the
37:54Rat Line
37:55from Augsburg
37:56across the
37:57Austrian
37:57border to
37:58Salzburg,
37:59then to
38:00Malnitz,
38:01across another
38:02international
38:02border,
38:03down to the
38:04Italian port
38:05of Genoa.
38:06Jim Milano
38:06set up the
38:07Rat Line.
38:08Everybody
38:09that went
38:10through the
38:10Rat Line
38:11was personally
38:12accompanied to
38:13the ship
38:13by a member
38:14of our
38:15organization.
38:16He sent
38:16them down
38:17under all
38:17sorts of
38:18disguises
38:19as American
38:20soldiers,
38:21as business
38:22people,
38:23you
38:23procured
38:24clothing for
38:25them.
38:25It was
38:25quite an
38:25operation.
38:27It was
38:27quite a
38:27briefing.
38:28They would
38:28go to
38:28one of
38:29our
38:29safe
38:29houses
38:30prior to
38:30departure
38:31and would
38:32be briefed
38:33on what
38:33to say,
38:33how to
38:34act.
38:35Well
38:36coached in
38:37their roles,
38:37Klaus
38:38Barbie and
38:38his family
38:39left Augsburg
38:40by truck,
38:41heading for
38:41the Austrian
38:42border.
38:43A vital
38:43part of
38:44the Rat
38:44Line
38:44service was
38:45smuggling
38:46people across
38:46international
38:47frontiers.
38:48To do
38:49this,
38:49they had
38:50to provide
38:50false
38:50travel
38:51documents.
38:51Barbie's
38:53papers
38:53identified
38:54him as
38:54Klaus
38:55Altman,
38:56a mechanic
38:56from
38:56Kronstadt.
38:58The CIC
38:58had obtained
38:59the papers
38:59from the
39:00American
39:00consulate
39:01in Munich.
39:03Once we
39:04knew where
39:05we could
39:05send him,
39:07then there
39:07were two
39:07or three
39:08sources that
39:08had been
39:08developed with
39:09respect to
39:09passports and
39:10visas.
39:11The visa was
39:11the key.
39:12Passports were
39:13really no
39:13problem because
39:14you could
39:15buy passports
39:17that had been
39:18used or people
39:19that had passed
39:19away or people
39:20that had come
39:21in from
39:21different areas
39:22and you
39:22modified the
39:23pages is
39:24really what
39:24you did on
39:24the passport.
39:26The Barbie
39:27family reached
39:28Salzburg safely
39:29and then
39:30continued their
39:30journey towards
39:31Italy by train.
39:33An American
39:33intelligence agent
39:34traveled with
39:35them and handled
39:36all of the
39:36formalities.
39:38The American
39:38agents dealt
39:39regularly with
39:40officials along
39:41the Ratline
39:41routes.
39:42Over the years,
39:43they had helped
39:44and bribed enough
39:45guards and
39:46customs men to
39:47ensure an easy
39:48passage.
39:50Anytime a
39:52person was
39:54accepted as
39:55a Ratline
39:55product, you
39:57had really
39:58unbelievable
39:59detailed planning.
40:01The real key
40:02to this was to
40:03not embarrass the
40:04American government.
40:05The thing was
40:06simulated for each
40:07particular case.
40:08We went over it
40:09and over it because
40:10the real fear that
40:11we had, if any of
40:12these ever blew up
40:12on you, it could
40:13be disastrous.
40:14Barbie finally
40:19reached the port
40:20of Genoa, where
40:21the American
40:21network of
40:22friendly officials
40:23swung into
40:24action.
40:24The normal
40:25procedure would
40:26be to check
40:26into a hotel,
40:28one that we
40:28had made
40:28previous
40:29arrangements with.
40:31Then, at the
40:31appointed time,
40:33you'd walk him
40:33right up to the
40:34gangplank, turn
40:35him over to
40:35somebody aboard
40:36ship who knew
40:37that this was a
40:38special person
40:39that was to be
40:39taken care of.
40:40And he would
40:41go aboard ship
40:41and that was
40:42the end of
40:43the rat line
40:43insofar as our
40:45operation was
40:46concerned.
40:48Two weeks after
40:49he had left
40:50Germany, Klaus
40:51Barbie sailed for
40:52South America on
40:53a ship called
40:53the Coriantis.
40:55It took 32
40:56years to get him
40:57back.
40:58Barbie went
40:58first to
40:59Argentina, then
41:00to Bolivia.
41:04Violence and
41:05unrest made
41:06Bolivia a
41:07perfect Nazi
41:07habitat.
41:08The harsh
41:09methods Barbie
41:10had employed
41:10against the
41:11French resistance
41:12could be used
41:13to fight
41:13Latin American
41:14left-wing
41:15guerrillas.
41:16Barbie put
41:16his Gestapo
41:17training at
41:18the service
41:18of a succession
41:19of military
41:20dictators.
41:21So valued
41:22was he as
41:22an advisor
41:23to the secret
41:24police and
41:24security services
41:25that in 1971
41:27he was given
41:28a diplomatic
41:29passport.
41:32He felt
41:32secure enough
41:33to use it
41:34on a sentimental
41:34journey to
41:35Germany,
41:36to America,
41:37and even
41:38to France.
41:41But he had
41:43finally left
41:44the clues
41:45that led
41:45the Nazi
41:46hunter,
41:46Beate
41:47Klarsfeld,
41:48to him.
41:50In this
41:51time there
41:51was a picture
41:52of Barbie
41:53showing him
41:54somewhere in
41:5442,
41:55published in
41:56the German
41:57newspapers,
41:58and one of
41:58these newspapers
41:59came to the
42:00eyes of a
42:01German living
42:02in Lima,
42:03and who
42:03recognized in
42:04the Barbie
42:05face a
42:06Bolivian
42:07businessman
42:09living in
42:10Lima under
42:10the name
42:11of Altman,
42:11and he
42:12contacted me
42:12saying I
42:13know this
42:14man,
42:14I know
42:15his address,
42:16and then
42:17I collected
42:18in Germany
42:18all the
42:19evidence to
42:20identify him,
42:21and with
42:21this material
42:22I took
42:22the plane
42:23in
42:23January
42:2472,
42:25I went
42:26to Lima,
42:26but he
42:27escaped to
42:28Bolivia,
42:29and I
42:29followed him,
42:30and so I
42:30brought the
42:31evidence to
42:32the public
42:32opinion,
42:33to the
42:33government
42:33in
42:33Bolivia,
42:34and they
42:34all
42:35were
42:35convinced.
42:37Under
42:37pressure
42:38from the
42:38French,
42:39the
42:39Bolivians
42:39arrested
42:40Barbie,
42:41but they
42:41refused to
42:42extradite
42:42him.
42:43From
42:43his
42:44prison
42:44cell,
42:45he
42:45protested
42:45his
42:45innocence.
43:01Barbie
43:02spent
43:02only
43:03eight
43:03months
43:03in
43:03jail
43:04before
43:04he
43:04was
43:05released
43:05on
43:05the
43:05orders
43:06of
43:06President
43:06Hugo
43:07Banzer.
43:08Given
43:08his
43:08own
43:08body
43:09guard,
43:09Barbie
43:10was
43:10treated
43:10as
43:10an
43:10honored
43:11citizen.
43:13He
43:13supported
43:14the
43:14military
43:14government
43:15and
43:16in order
43:17to bring
43:17up
43:18Panzer
43:19to
43:19power,
43:20it
43:20was
43:20Barbie
43:21who
43:21collected
43:21the
43:22money
43:22to
43:22buy
43:23weapons
43:23in
43:23order
43:24to
43:24have
43:24the
43:24putsch
43:25which
43:25brought
43:25Panzer
43:27to
43:27power.
43:31Things
43:31looked
43:32even
43:32better
43:32for
43:32Barbie
43:33when
43:33in 1980
43:34his
43:34friend
43:35Luis
43:35Arce
43:36Gomez
43:36helped
43:37stage
43:37a
43:37successful
43:38coup.
43:39Barbie
43:39helped
43:39organize
43:40paramilitary
43:41forces to
43:41protect the
43:42new government
43:42and the
43:43cocaine smuggling
43:44that's a very
43:45profitable business
43:46in Bolivia.
43:46then last year
43:53to the surprise
43:55of most
43:55Bolivians
43:56and the
43:56dismay
43:56of the
43:57right-wing
43:57German
43:58community
43:58there
43:58a
43:59democratically
44:00elected
44:00government
44:00was allowed
44:01to take
44:01office.
44:03Barbie
44:03could no
44:03longer
44:04count
44:04on
44:04presidential
44:05protection.
44:09Barbie
44:10was
44:11arrested.
44:12In
44:12prison
44:13again
44:13and about
44:14to be
44:14deported
44:15to
44:15France
44:15he
44:16produced
44:17a
44:17common
44:17Nazi
44:17justification
44:18for what
44:19he did
44:20while
44:20commanding
44:21the
44:21Gestapo
44:21in
44:22Lyon.
44:22that's
44:23other
44:23thing
44:24if the
44:24colonel
44:24is
44:24authorized
44:25then I
44:27have
44:27nothing
44:27in
44:27contra.
44:28It was
44:28a war
44:29of guerrilla
44:30because
44:30France
44:31was
44:32occupied
44:32and they
44:34had
44:34formed
44:34a
44:35amnesty
44:35that
44:36they
44:36would not
44:36fight
44:37against
44:37the
44:38soldiers
44:38almanes
44:39it was
44:39a
44:40convenio
44:40of the
44:42war
44:43of the
44:45Haya
44:45and
44:46the
44:47convention
44:47of
44:47Geneva
44:48that
44:48a
44:48civil
44:49should not
44:50kill
44:50a
44:50soldier
44:51in
44:51the
44:53occupation
44:53if
44:54they
44:54formed
44:54their
44:55guerrilla
44:55that's
44:55thing
44:56of
44:56them
44:56but
44:58the
44:58German
44:58government
44:59then
44:59the
45:00military
45:02in
45:03this
45:03case
45:04the
45:04occupation
45:05in
45:05France
45:05has
45:06had to
45:07defend
45:08what
45:09happened
45:10in
45:10San
45:10Salvador
45:11what
45:11happened
45:12in
45:12Honduras
45:12what
45:12happened
45:13in
45:13Afghanistan
45:13and
45:15in
45:15all
45:15of
45:15these
45:16regions
45:16shortly
45:20after he
45:21gave
45:21that
45:21interview
45:22Barbie
45:22was
45:23taken
45:23onto
45:23a
45:24plane
45:24and
45:24flown
45:24to
45:25France
45:25when
45:26they
45:26told
45:27him
45:27where
45:27he
45:27was
45:27going
45:28he
45:28broke
45:29down
45:29and
45:29wept
45:30for
45:33Klaus
45:33Barbie
45:33the
45:34long
45:34years
45:34of
45:35freedom
45:35and
45:35immunity
45:36have
45:36come
45:36to
45:36an
45:36end
45:37but
45:37for
45:37Americans
45:38disturbed
45:39by
45:39our
45:39role
45:40in
45:40the
45:40Barbie
45:40story
45:41there
45:41are
45:41still
45:42many
45:42questions
45:43you
45:43mean
45:43in
45:43my
45:43conscience
45:44the
45:48benefits
45:48outweigh
45:49the
45:50cost
45:50shall
45:50we
45:51say
45:51that
45:52the
45:52charges
45:52against
45:53him
45:53are
45:53not
45:53that
45:53serious
45:54that
45:54we
45:55did
45:55not
45:55really
45:55have
45:56any
45:56information
45:56that
45:56he
45:57was
45:57a
45:57major
45:57war
45:57criminal
45:58and
45:59balance
45:59that
45:59off
46:00against
46:00his
46:01great
46:01utility
46:01to
46:02our
46:02organization
46:03we
46:05did
46:05not
46:05have
46:06any
46:06great
46:06pangs
46:07of
46:07conscience
46:08shall
46:08we
46:08say
46:08the
46:11French
46:11have
46:11put
46:11Barbie
46:12in
46:12the
46:12prison
46:13in
46:13Lyon
46:13that
46:14he
46:14calls
46:14death's
46:15waiting
46:15room
46:16from
46:16the
46:17same
46:17prison
46:17he
46:18sent
46:18thousands
46:18of
46:19Jews
46:19to
46:19their
46:20deaths
46:20in
46:23the
46:23cells
46:24below
46:24the
46:24ground
46:25he
46:25personally
46:25tortured
46:26hundreds
46:26of
46:27French
46:27resistance
46:28fighters
46:28now
46:31Klaus
46:32Barbie
46:32awaits
46:33his
46:33trial
46:34Klaus
46:37Barbie's
46:37trial
46:38which
46:38will be
46:39held
46:39in
46:39Lyon
46:39France
46:40is
46:40at
46:40least
46:40a
46:41year
46:41away
46:41because
46:42of
46:42France's
46:4320-year
46:43statute
46:43of
46:43limitations
46:44on
46:44war
46:45crimes
46:45Barbie
46:46will
46:46not
46:46be
46:46prosecuted
46:47as
46:47a
46:47war
46:48criminal
46:48but
46:49for
46:49crimes
46:49against
46:50humanity
46:50meaning
46:51the
46:51murder
46:51of
46:52innocent
46:52women
46:52and
46:52children
46:53and
46:54there
46:54is
46:54no
46:54statute
46:54of
46:54limitation
46:55for
46:55crimes
46:56against
46:56humanity
46:57here
46:58in the
46:58United
46:58States
46:58any
46:59day
46:59now
46:59the
46:59Justice
47:00Department's
47:00Office
47:01of
47:01Special
47:01Investigations
47:02for
47:02War
47:03Crimes
47:03Cases
47:03will
47:04release
47:04the
47:04results
47:05of a
47:05five
47:05month
47:06probe
47:06into
47:07the
47:07relationship
47:07between
47:08the
47:08United
47:08States
47:08government
47:09and
47:09Klaus
47:10Barbie
47:10the
47:11General
47:11Accounting
47:12Office
47:12meanwhile
47:13is in
47:13the
47:13middle
47:14of
47:14its
47:14investigation
47:15requested
47:15by
47:15Congress
47:16into
47:17the
47:17overall
47:17subject
47:18of
47:18US
47:18links
47:19with
47:19former
47:20Nazi
47:20war
47:20criminals
47:21and
47:21that
47:22report
47:22is
47:23due
47:23out
47:23next
47:23year
47:24as
47:26we
47:26conclude
47:26this
47:26first
47:27season
47:27of
47:27Frontline
47:28we
47:29thought
47:29you
47:29would
47:29like
47:29to
47:29know
47:29what
47:29happened
47:30to
47:30three
47:30or
47:30four
47:30of
47:31the
47:31people
47:31in
47:31our
47:31programs
47:32Eddie
47:33Dawson
47:34his
47:35story
47:35as
47:35a
47:35paid
47:35police
47:36informer
47:36was
47:36first
47:37told
47:37in
47:37our
47:37program
47:38about
47:38the
47:38shootout
47:38in
47:39Greensboro
47:39North
47:39Carolina
47:40between
47:41the
47:41KKK
47:41Nazis
47:42and
47:43communist
47:43workers
47:44five
47:45communist
47:45workers
47:45died
47:46in
47:47April
47:47Dawson
47:48and
47:48eight
47:48others
47:49all
47:49with
47:49ties
47:50to
47:50the
47:50Klan
47:50or
47:51American
47:51Nazis
47:52were
47:52indicted
47:52by
47:53a
47:53federal
47:53grand
47:53jury
47:54no
47:55trial
47:55date
47:55has
47:56been
47:56set
47:56Roberto
48:01Calvi
48:02the
48:02Italian
48:03banker
48:03whose
48:03financial
48:04empire
48:04collapsed
48:05and who
48:06was found
48:06hanging
48:06under
48:07a
48:07London
48:07bridge
48:08last
48:09month
48:09a
48:10London
48:10jury
48:10reversed
48:11the
48:11suicide
48:12verdict
48:12saying
48:13there
48:13was
48:13insufficient
48:14proof
48:15of
48:15either
48:15suicide
48:16or
48:16murder
48:17the
48:18case
48:18remains
48:18open
48:19Calvin
48:24Bickham
48:25one
48:25of
48:25the
48:26disabled
48:26profiled
48:27in
48:27our
48:28investigation
48:28into
48:29social
48:29security's
48:30disability
48:30cutoffs
48:31last
48:32month
48:32after
48:33the
48:33program
48:33aired
48:34Bickham
48:34was told
48:35he is
48:36once again
48:36eligible
48:37for
48:37benefits
48:38and
48:43finally
48:44Kojo
48:45Odo
48:45the
48:46single
48:46man
48:46who
48:46adopted
48:4718
48:47handicapped
48:48children
48:48he received
48:50hundreds
48:50of
48:50letters
48:50from
48:51viewers
48:51and
48:52thousands
48:52of
48:52dollars
48:53he's
48:54now
48:54a
48:54consultant
48:54speaking
48:55to
48:55agencies
48:56involved
48:56in
48:57adoption
48:57frontline
49:01also
49:01had
49:01its
49:01share
49:01of
49:02controversy
49:02our
49:03premier
49:03program
49:04an
49:04unauthorized
49:05history
49:05of the
49:05NFL
49:06explored
49:06associations
49:07between
49:08gamblers
49:08players
49:09and
49:09owners
49:09the
49:10program
49:10attracted
49:11a
49:11large
49:11audience
49:12a
49:12great
49:12deal
49:12of
49:13response
49:13and
49:13a
49:14number
49:14of
49:14specific
49:15criticisms
49:15one
49:16dealt
49:17with the
49:17death
49:17of
49:17Carol
49:17Rosenblum
49:18former
49:19owner
49:19of the
49:19Baltimore
49:20Colts
49:20and
49:21LA
49:21Rams
49:21the
49:23segment
49:24started
49:24in
49:24Florida
49:25where
49:25every year
49:26Rosenblum
49:26would come
49:27here and
49:27swim in the
49:27ocean
49:28until one
49:29day in
49:29April of
49:301979
49:30he drowned
49:32his son
49:33his son
49:33is still
49:34puzzled
49:34by his
49:35death
49:35here's
49:36a man
49:36that
49:36spent
49:37most
49:38of the
49:3872
49:39years
49:39in
49:40or
49:40around
49:40the
49:40water
49:40in
49:41fact
49:41had
49:42lived
49:42on
49:42that
49:42stretch
49:43of
49:43beach
49:43for
49:44about
49:45eight
49:45years
49:45or so
49:46and
49:46knew
49:46the
49:46ocean
49:48well
49:48he knew
49:51undertoes
49:53and the
49:53currents
49:53and
49:54could handle
49:55himself
49:56very well
49:57in the
49:57water
49:57and
49:58I just
50:00don't
50:00recall
50:00him
50:01ever
50:01going
50:01into
50:01the
50:02water
50:02by
50:02himself
50:03the
50:06segment
50:06also
50:06featured
50:07a
50:07gambler's
50:07runner
50:08who
50:08related
50:08for
50:09a
50:09fee
50:09what
50:10criminal
50:10circles
50:11said
50:11about
50:11the
50:11drowning
50:12I
50:13think
50:13he
50:13was
50:14more
50:14or less
50:15murdered
50:15he
50:15was
50:15held
50:16underwater
50:16until
50:16he
50:16drowned
50:17and
50:18finally
50:18we
50:19interviewed
50:19a
50:19French
50:19Canadian
50:20tourist
50:20who
50:21witnessed
50:21the
50:21drowning
50:22he
50:29says
50:30that
50:30he
50:30saw
50:30Mr.
50:31Rosenblum
50:32out
50:32in
50:32the
50:33water
50:33and
50:33he
50:33was
50:33shouting
50:34for
50:34help
50:35as
50:39he
50:39was
50:39going
50:40out
50:40there
50:40he
50:40saw
50:41a
50:41black
50:42object
50:42in
50:42the
50:43water
50:43when
50:44he
50:44saw
50:44this
50:44object
50:45it
50:45was
50:45going
50:45in
50:46the
50:46opposite
50:46direction
50:46of
50:47the
50:47waves
50:47and
50:47it
50:47sort
50:47of
50:47crossed
50:48over
50:48he
50:48only
50:48saw
50:49it
50:49once
50:49as
50:49if
50:49it
50:50went
50:51under
50:51water
50:51submerged
50:52and
50:52never
50:52came
50:52up
50:52again
50:53Dr.
50:54Alan
50:55Blum
50:55wrote
50:55of
50:55this
50:55segment
50:56quote
50:56the
50:57program
50:58suggested
50:58that
50:58Rosenblum's
50:59death
50:59was
51:00not
51:00an
51:00accidental
51:00drowning
51:01as
51:01the
51:02medical
51:02examiner
51:02ruled
51:03but
51:03a
51:03murder
51:04which
51:04was
51:04in
51:05some
51:05way
51:05related
51:05to
51:06underworld
51:06gambling
51:07selective
51:08reporting
51:08with a
51:09predetermined
51:10bias
51:10such as
51:11occurred
51:11on the
51:11front
51:11line
51:12program
51:12is
51:13regrettable
51:13end
51:14of
51:14quote
51:14although
51:16our
51:16report
51:16did
51:17take
51:17note
51:17of
51:17the
51:17official
51:18verdict
51:18accidental
51:19drowning
51:21Rosenblum's
51:22death
51:22overshadowed
51:23other
51:24information
51:24in the
51:24program
51:25which was
51:25devoted
51:25to
51:26how
51:26he
51:26lived
51:27Rosenblum
51:28was a
51:29prominent
51:29NFL
51:29owner
51:30with a
51:30record
51:31of
51:31gambling
51:31associations
51:32a
51:33violation
51:33of
51:33the
51:33NFL's
51:34own
51:34charter
51:35and
51:36this
51:36fact
51:36not
51:37how
51:37he
51:37died
51:38should
51:39have
51:39been
51:39more
51:39clearly
51:39emphasized
51:40the
51:42program
51:42was
51:42also
51:43criticized
51:43for
51:43paying
51:44some
51:44sources
51:44to
51:44be
51:45interviewed
51:45it
51:46is
51:46not
51:46front
51:46line
51:46policy
51:47to
51:47pay
51:47for
51:47interviews
51:48we
51:49made
51:49an
51:49exception
51:50in
51:50this
51:50case
51:50where
51:51convicted
51:51underworld
51:52figures
51:53appeared
51:53to be
51:54the
51:54only
51:54ones
51:54in
51:55possession
51:55of
51:55the
51:55information
51:56on
51:56the
51:56subject
51:57their
51:57stories
51:58were
51:58subjected
51:58to lie
51:59detector
51:59tests
52:00and
52:00corroboration
52:01we were
52:02also
52:03criticized
52:03for using
52:04a source
52:04who said
52:05he was
52:05part of
52:05a game
52:06fixing
52:06scheme
52:07we
52:08reported
52:08the
52:08scheme
52:09because
52:09much
52:10had been
52:10written
52:10to the
52:11effect
52:11that
52:11it
52:12would
52:12be
52:12impossible
52:12to
52:13fix
52:13pro
52:13football
52:14games
52:14and
52:15we
52:15felt
52:15this
52:15source
52:15testimony
52:16about
52:16just
52:17such
52:17a scheme
52:18was
52:18important
52:19to
52:19hear
52:19the
52:20source
52:20a
52:21convict
52:21passed
52:22a lie
52:22detector
52:23test
52:23and
52:24there
52:24is
52:24much
52:24circumstantial
52:25evidence
52:26to support
52:26his
52:27story
52:27however
52:28because
52:29of the
52:29seriousness
52:30of the
52:30charges
52:30and the
52:31lack
52:31of
52:31additional
52:32corroboration
52:33we
52:33didn't
52:34name
52:34the
52:34specific
52:34individuals
52:35allegedly
52:36involved
52:36and
52:37we
52:37will
52:37not
52:38do
52:38so
52:38then
52:40there
52:40was
52:40the
52:40program
52:41the
52:41Russians
52:42are
52:42here
52:42in
52:44America
52:45since
52:46I
52:46started
52:47my
52:47business
52:47I
52:48don't
52:48remember
52:49one
52:49single
52:49day
52:50where
52:50I
52:50would
52:51feel
52:51happy
52:51from
52:51the
52:52beginning
52:52of
52:52my
52:53day
52:53till
52:53end
52:53I
52:54would
52:54probably
52:55feel
52:56happy
52:56for
52:5610
52:56minutes
52:57and
52:57then
52:57I
52:57would
52:57think
52:58what's
52:58going
52:58to
52:58happen
52:59tomorrow
52:59it
53:00not
53:00only
53:01produced
53:01a
53:01lot
53:01of
53:02mail
53:02but
53:02a
53:02demonstration
53:03outside
53:03our
53:03studios
53:04the
53:13film
53:14explored
53:14the
53:14difficulties
53:15encountered
53:15by
53:16some
53:16soviet
53:16immigrants
53:17with
53:17American
53:18values
53:18such as
53:19freedom
53:19and
53:20democracy
53:20Mikhail
53:22Sipkin
53:22who helped
53:23organize
53:23the
53:23demonstration
53:24felt
53:25the
53:25film
53:25was
53:25unrepresentative
53:26quote
53:27there
53:28are
53:28Russians
53:29who
53:29are
53:29successful
53:29and
53:30enthusiastic
53:30about
53:31American
53:31democracy
53:32there
53:32are
53:33hundreds
53:33of
53:33Russian
53:33immigrants
53:34engineers
53:34physicians
53:35mathematicians
53:36etc
53:37who
53:37are
53:37professionally
53:38employed
53:38and
53:39very
53:39happy
53:39about
53:40living
53:40in
53:40the
53:41United
53:41States
53:41unquote
53:42from
53:44Barbara
53:44Litt
53:44in
53:45San
53:45Francisco
53:45quote
53:46when
53:47immigration
53:47to
53:47Israel
53:48and
53:48the
53:48West
53:48has
53:49dwindled
53:49to
53:49almost
53:49nothing
53:50it's
53:50sad
53:51for me
53:51to
53:51think
53:51that
53:51this
53:52film
53:52unwittingly
53:53plays
53:53into
53:53the
53:53hands
53:53of
53:54the
53:54official
53:54Soviet
53:55anti-Zionist
53:55committee
53:56unquote
53:57well
53:58it's
53:58clear
53:58that
53:58no
53:59film
53:59could
53:59represent
54:00an
54:00entire
54:00group
54:01of
54:01people
54:01and
54:02if
54:02we
54:02fail
54:03to
54:03emphasize
54:03that
54:04point
54:04we
54:05should
54:05do
54:05so
54:05now
54:05as
54:07to
54:07the
54:07Soviet
54:07policy
54:08on
54:08immigration
54:08it
54:09would
54:09be
54:09regrettable
54:10if the
54:10Soviet
54:10Union
54:11used
54:11this
54:11film
54:12to
54:12justify
54:12its
54:12current
54:13policy
54:13of
54:14keeping
54:14people
54:14from
54:14immigrating
54:15but
54:16as
54:16journalists
54:17we
54:17can't
54:18report
54:18with
54:18an
54:18eye
54:19to
54:19what
54:19foreign
54:19governments
54:20might
54:20think
54:21or
54:21do
54:21and
54:23then
54:23there
54:23were
54:23all
54:24of
54:24the
54:24other
54:24programs
54:25which
54:25drew
54:25responses
54:26as
54:26we
54:27attempted
54:27to
54:27address
54:27the
54:28front
54:28lines
54:28of
54:28change
54:29changes
54:30in
54:30foreign
54:30nations
54:31and
54:31policies
54:32the
54:32Middle
54:32East
54:32Taiwan
54:33mainland
54:34China
54:34Zimbabwe
54:35the
54:36political
54:36changes
54:37unemployment
54:37pork
54:38barreling
54:39poverty
54:40in the
54:40shadow
54:40of our
54:40nation's
54:41capital
54:41technological
54:42changes
54:43anti-satellite
54:44devices
54:45laser
54:45weaponry
54:46social
54:47changes
54:47from
54:48facelifts
54:48to the
54:49rights of
54:50this
54:50country's
54:50disabled
54:51some
54:52of
54:52your
54:52responses
54:53were
54:53wonderfully
54:53supportive
54:54and
54:55others
54:55pointedly
54:56critical
54:56all
54:57of
54:57them
54:57read
54:57and
54:58all
54:58considered
54:59for
55:00we
55:00did
55:00not
55:00come
55:01to
55:01the
55:01front
55:01line
55:01of
55:02what
55:02we
55:02had
55:02hoped
55:02would
55:02be
55:03a
55:03new
55:03voice
55:03in
55:03American
55:04journalism
55:04expecting
55:05to
55:05answer
55:06questions
55:06only
55:07hoping
55:08that
55:08something
55:08we
55:09might
55:09do
55:09would
55:09prompt
55:10you
55:10to
55:11ask
55:11them
55:11in
55:13January
55:13there
55:13will
55:13be
55:13a
55:14new
55:14season
55:14of
55:14Front
55:14Line
55:15we
55:16ask
55:16that
55:16you
55:16join
55:17us
55:17then
55:17I'm
55:19Jessica
55:19Savage
55:19for
55:20Front
55:21Line
55:21coming up
55:35next at
55:36nine
55:36o'clock
55:37episode
55:38three
55:38of the
55:39TV
55:39adaptation
55:39of
55:40Evelyn
55:40Waugh's
55:41Brideshead
55:41Revisited
55:42and
55:43don't
55:43forget
55:43at
55:43ten
55:44o'clock
55:44tonight
55:44a
55:45special
55:45two
55:46hour
55:46salute
55:46to
55:46George
55:47London
55:47on
55:48Kennedy
55:48Center
55:49tonight
55:49all
55:50here
55:50on
55:50WETA
55:5126
55:52don't
55:52go
55:53away
56:11and
56:13I
56:13go
56:15and
56:15do
56:17and
56:18do
56:19yeah
56:21I
56:21I
56:23I
56:27I
56:28I
56:31I
56:32I
56:33I
56:36I
56:37I
56:38I
56:38I
56:39I
56:39I
56:39I
56:39I
56:40I
56:41I
56:41I
56:41I
57:11Which is solely responsible for its content.
57:14Major funding for Frontline was provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
57:19Additional funding was provided by this station and other public television stations nationwide.
57:24And by the Chubb Group of Insurance Companies for over 100 years providing worldwide business and personal insurance through independent agents and brokers.
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