- 3 months ago
A young, three-person debate team from America travels to the Soviet Union to meet young Russians whose world views contradict their own.
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00:21Three young American debaters are in Russia on a whirlwind tour.
00:26They have come to debate the issues of war and peace.
00:33Soviet reaction to the Americans?
00:36Laughter.
00:38Questions.
00:39Disbelief.
00:40But that is not right.
00:41That is not the way it is.
00:43Everything you are saying, that is not true.
00:46Tonight, on Frontline, a journey to Russia.
00:56From the network of public television stations, a presentation of KCTS Seattle, WNET New York, WPBT Miami, WTVS Detroit, and WGBH Boston.
01:15This is Frontline.
01:16With Jessica Savage.
01:22If one of us wanted to travel around the Soviet Union, see its small communities beyond the major cities, ride its roads and railways, talk freely with its people, it'd be almost impossible.
01:33Although we permit Soviet visitors to experience almost every facet of our open culture, the Soviet society is closed.
01:40And it is becoming even more so.
01:44Just last Friday, the Soviet government announced a new regulation requiring American news organizations to show all film and videotape to Soviet authorities before it can be shipped out of the country.
01:56Tonight, a film made before that regulation was announced.
02:00Three young Americans, students of Soviet culture and history, journey to Russia to debate their Soviet counterparts.
02:06They debate in Russian, yet although they speak the same language, they find it hard to communicate differing ideas and ideals.
02:15They're unprepared for the reaction of the Soviet audiences.
02:19The Americans raised the familiar issues, Afghanistan, Poland, and Soviet adherence to the human rights agreement called the Helsinki Accords.
02:27But this debate goes far beyond specifics, for those confrontations provide a rare glimpse of how we view the Soviets and how they in turn see us.
02:37This film is called A Journey to Russia.
02:40It's produced and directed by Wayne Ewing for Frontline.
02:44This is their version of Park Avenue.
02:47Notice the tall buildings.
02:50There's a disco in there.
02:51There's a disco.
02:52And here's Don Pinigi, which is where you buy all your posters over there.
02:55And here's some really good magazines, really good stores, really good restaurants here.
03:00Well, you know.
03:03Good Soviet restaurants.
03:05Restaurants, yeah.
03:05Oh, I checked to see what was at the Bolshoi Theater, and the calendar that they have posted only goes up to the 20th.
03:12On the October eve of a long Russian winter, three young Americans arrive in Moscow.
03:19They have come to the Soviet Union as a team, with a coach, and even a film crew to record their experience.
03:26Margaret Ann Niles, from Portland, Oregon, is a graduate of Harvard.
03:30John Tokolish comes from a small town in New Jersey, and is an aide to Senator Daniel Moynihan.
03:40Bill Skundrich was born in Pittsburgh, and specialized in Russian studies at the University of Pittsburgh.
03:47While two weeks of travel to six Soviet cities will be a test of the team's endurance,
03:52the competition they have entered will be a clash of minds, and not bodies.
03:57They will debate, in Russian, with teams of young Soviets, the merits of American and Soviet values,
04:04and their effect on war and peace.
04:07Debate coach Mike Hazen, of Wake Forest University, does not speak Russian,
04:12but gives strategic advice before each debate.
04:15Let's get some of those pulled and get them into a short answer.
04:18You know what the tallest building is in Moscow?
04:21Now, that building, because it's the KGB headquarters, from it, you can see Siberia.
04:26You can see Siberia.
04:28That's one of the most typical things of Soviet life right there, that huge banner.
04:33Yeah, what did they say?
04:35Yeah, hail to the unbreakable unity of the party and the people.
04:46This select group of Soviet medical students is awaiting a rare experience in a closed society,
04:55a chance to hear an uncensored but not unchallenged American point of view.
05:01This is Margaret's fourth trip to the Soviet Union.
05:04She has studied in Leningrad and traveled throughout Russia,
05:07but after three years at Stanford Law School, her Russian's a bit rusty.
05:11Bill's Russian is so perfect that he's often mistaken for a Soviet,
05:14but once he speaks about politics, there is no doubt where he comes from.
05:19The son of Czech immigrants and a member of the Russian Orthodox Church,
05:22Bill maintains close ties with the Russian émigré community in Pittsburgh.
05:27John has also been to the Soviet Union before.
05:30He studied Russian at the Pushkin Institute in Moscow.
05:34These discussions have been held for ten years
05:36by the Speech Communications Association of the U.S.
05:38and the Student Council of the USSR.
05:42The Soviet opponents will change with each debate.
05:44Some, like these, will be students, but many will be teachers.
05:49The debates will always be held before packed university audiences
05:52with never enough room for all who would like to listen.
05:55The topic will remain the same, war and peace.
05:58The goal? Peace through mutual understanding.
06:01In the United States, personal liberties have always reigns supreme.
06:11In our Declaration of Independence,
06:13we are guaranteed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
06:18I believe that the exchange of opinions such as this discussion
06:23has a great significance
06:25and could very well play an important role in our mutual understanding
06:30thanks to our personal contacts.
06:33The test of war and peace and the value systems of a society
06:40is behavior and not government propaganda.
06:43Throughout human history,
06:45many of the worst atrocities have been perpetrated
06:47in the name of the highest ideals.
06:49Many revolutions, which had at their base
06:51very noble ideas and ideals,
06:54dissolved into torrents of blood.
06:55This is especially true of the Russian Revolution.
07:03Quite recently, an advisor to President Reagan,
07:08Security Advisor Clark,
07:09who spoke about his views of strategic problems,
07:12declared,
07:13Our interests are of a global character,
07:15and they go counter to the interests of the Soviet Union.
07:18Our strategy should consist of using armed force
07:21to attain concrete strategic goals
07:23and to do it quickly,
07:25and to do it under circumstances
07:27that would be favorable to the United States
07:29and our allies.
07:32Well, what can I say about this?
07:35This is substantiation,
07:36not merely of a political slogan,
07:38but it lies at the base of the foreign policy
07:41of one of the largest and most powerful nations of the world.
07:44For it is within the confines of this policy
07:47that new forms of weapons have been devised.
07:50Cruise missiles,
07:50new forms of chemical weapons,
07:53and war apparatus for use in space
07:55are being worked out,
07:56and at the same time,
07:58medium-range missiles are being placed in Europe.
08:02I don't want to be put in a position
08:06of defending the arms race,
08:07because this position, of course,
08:10can't be defended.
08:11But I would like to say
08:14that Soviet troops in Europe
08:16are twice as numerous
08:18as the troops of the United States,
08:21and that sometimes
08:22the United States of America
08:24thinks that it will rectify this situation
08:27by means of new American technology,
08:30and this is why
08:31things such as cruise missiles appear
08:33and so forth.
08:34John, you are not entirely correct.
08:38First of all,
08:39the number of Soviet troops in Europe
08:40is twice that of the United States,
08:42because we ourselves are located in Europe,
08:44and it is only natural
08:45that our troops are located on our territory.
08:48Secondly,
08:49you are correct in saying
08:50that American troops are located in Europe,
08:53whereas Soviet troops...
08:55I don't know.
08:56Is there even one soldier,
08:57I mean a soldier,
08:58on American territory?
08:59Do you think so?
09:00We have no troops in Nicaragua,
09:04nor in Panama,
09:05nor in Cuba.
09:05We don't have Soviet troops anywhere.
09:09And in Afghanistan?
09:14Have you forgotten
09:15about the 100,000 Soviet soldiers?
09:18Bill.
09:18Bill.
09:19I'll explain.
09:20First of all,
09:21Afghanistan is in Asia,
09:23not America,
09:24and it is located
09:25on the Soviet border.
09:26But you said
09:27outside the Soviet Union.
09:29Yes, Bill.
09:30I agree,
09:31but Afghanistan,
09:32perhaps you have trouble
09:33telling where the Soviet border ends
09:34and Afghanistan begins.
09:40Well, I thought,
09:41I thought they handled that
09:43quite well, actually.
09:45But I guess...
09:45Goodbye.
09:48I thought it went very well.
09:49I really did.
09:50Yeah, I was stumbling
09:51over my words, though.
09:51I was so embarrassed.
09:52When am I going to learn
09:53to speak Russian?
09:54Here.
09:55I felt really good.
09:56They really,
09:56I mean, they understand.
09:57The Russians like a good,
09:58a good fight.
09:59They really do.
10:00Yeah, but we do.
10:01And they understand it,
10:02and as long as you keep it
10:03off of, you know,
10:06personalities,
10:07it will be interesting
10:08to see all of the reactions
10:10as far as our discussions
10:12of invasions of Afghanistan.
10:14Oh, yeah, I was watching closely.
10:15In the republics.
10:17Yeah, yeah.
10:17I mean, like,
10:17especially in Thailand,
10:19in Estonia,
10:20where the people
10:21really have difficulties
10:23with that,
10:24and, I mean,
10:24that will be interesting
10:25to monitor their reaction to that.
10:27It might be interesting
10:28in Baku
10:28because they're closer to it, too.
10:29I mean,
10:30their bitterness
10:30is still very much alive.
10:34Less than 24 hours
10:35since arriving in Russia,
10:36the team leaves Moscow,
10:39wondering how Bill's hard line
10:40on Afghanistan
10:41will be received
10:42only 700 miles
10:43from the Afghan border.
10:45They're on their way
10:46to Baku,
10:47an ancient city
10:48on the Caspian Sea.
10:49But what was promised
10:50to be an easy trip
10:51turned into a 16-hour nightmare
10:53when Aerofloat,
10:55a Soviet airline,
10:56detoured to Armenia,
10:57reportedly for bad weather.
10:58We were forbidden to film
11:00and with no food or water
11:02left stranded overnight
11:03in an old airline terminal.
11:05The team finally arrives
11:06in Baku
11:07after a sleepless night
11:08to a warm greeting
11:09from Misha,
11:10the student council host.
11:13Well,
11:14at least you had the opportunity
11:15to see another city.
11:17Yerevan.
11:18Okay,
11:18let's take a seat.
11:26Look at that eggplant.
11:27That man's got
11:27a bag full of eggplant.
11:29And then look at those breads.
11:30I love those kind of breads.
11:32This is neat.
11:34With no chance
11:35to sleep in sight,
11:36food and drink
11:37will be plentiful
11:38for the Americans
11:39in Baku,
11:40the capital
11:40of the Azerbaijan Republic.
11:42The people
11:43of this distinctly
11:44Muslim city
11:45produce an abundance
11:46of caviar,
11:47oil,
11:47and champagne.
11:49Although exhausted,
11:50the team is swept up
11:52by the ancient city
11:52and rallies
11:53to enjoy Misha's generosity
11:55beginning at a banquet
11:56deep in a medieval fortress.
11:59Let us hope
12:03that in these two weeks
12:04you will spend
12:04in our country
12:05that the most terrible
12:06stone caves
12:07you will find in Russia
12:08will be these.
12:10So,
12:10if you have no objections,
12:12I would like to raise
12:13my glass
12:13to those who are at home,
12:15for your loved ones
12:16and for your relatives
12:17and I hope
12:18that they will not
12:19worry about you.
12:19it will be these.
16:20Well, what can I say?
16:22I can simply say that it's not true.
16:24I mean, look how many Americans we have with us here today.
16:27According to those figures, one of us would have to be illiterate.
16:30Perhaps you're saying I'm the one.
16:32I don't know.
16:36I have such mixed feelings in this country.
16:40I mean, you know, on one side I want to sympathize with them.
16:46On the other side I want to say, oh, you know, let them.
16:48If they put up with it, let them put up.
16:50Let them have to deal with it, you know?
16:54Less than 16 hours after the Baku debate, the team arrives in Volgograd.
17:00Tired after a long night of traveling, they will face their third debate at the end of another day of sightseeing.
17:06But the Americans are not prepared for the emotional impact of the sights of Volgograd.
17:12Once known as Stalingrad, it is a living monument to the Soviet struggle for survival in World War II.
17:18At the Battle of Stalingrad, the Germans were stopped.
17:22But the cost of victory was great.
17:24After 200 days of fighting, the Russians reclaimed a destroyed city.
17:2920 million Soviets died during World War II, and no one here will ever forget them.
17:35On this post are representatives of the very best schools of Volgograd, the best members of the Consumal and pioneers.
17:47On the post are two boys as watch guards.
17:51And they carry in their arms the weapons of participants in the Stalingrad battle.
17:56And the girls are their aides.
17:58Despite the great victory here, after the Battle of Stalingrad, our city was in fact completely destroyed.
18:05And therefore, the love that we harbor for our city is understandable.
18:12Every person loves the place where they were born, where they grew up and where their children live and grow.
18:19But we love our city in a very special way.
18:23We truly are in love with it because we have done this with our own hands.
18:29And this love is given down from us to our children.
18:35At the foot of the towering Mother Russia statue stands the Hall of Military Honor.
18:41On the walls of which are inscribed the names of so many who have died.
18:46It is no accident that in this hall we hear the music of a German composer.
18:51In doing so, our Soviet people wanted to emphasize that we were fighting not against Germany, but against fascism.
19:00All of this is testimony to the fact that nothing has been forgotten, and no one has been forgotten.
19:08It is?
19:13Yes.
19:14Uh-huh.
19:16Yes.
19:18Yes.
19:19Yes.
19:20Yes.
19:21Yes.
19:22Yes.
19:25Yes.
19:26No...
19:27Yes.
19:29No.
19:30Yes.
19:31Yes.
19:32Yes.
19:33That would be the opportunity of our Hofman is now making us difficultly,
19:36I don't know, it really hit me to see all the names.
19:53I don't know why, because it just suddenly made me realize, you know, these are real people.
19:59I think I would have mentioned something like that in my speech.
20:01These are the people, if anybody, who are not going to buy any of our, you know, they know what war was, you know.
20:14I don't think I'm going to mention Stalin today.
20:17No, you don't know, no, no, no.
20:18I don't know.
20:20Through all these monuments that we saw today, we can see that these people really, really don't want war, that they want peace.
20:29They know better than us the horrors of war.
20:33So I don't think we should stand there and try to teach them about the need for peace, because they understand it.
20:40And yet, nonetheless, this threat of war does exist.
20:43And why?
20:44It's because we fear each other, and we fear each other because we don't trust each other.
20:49And why don't we trust each other?
20:50Because it goes to the hearts, the values, and they're into your speech.
20:54Because of violations of the Helsinki brothers.
20:56Because of Stalinism and their inability to stop us.
21:00Well, that's exactly right.
21:02Yeah.
21:02What we need to do is try to bridge the gap of misunderstanding.
21:06And the only way we can bridge that gap is if we talk about the things that separate us.
21:11Can you put that in your mouth?
21:12You see, the thing is, I can't write this out.
21:15I cannot, it cannot be read.
21:17Yeah.
21:18It is impossible for this to be read, or else this has to be said directly to them.
21:22From the heart.
21:22We, in the USA, know that the Battle of Stalingrad was a turning point in World War II.
21:36We know, or we can try to understand how you suffered, how you fought, and how you, perhaps
21:48more than anyone, know the horrors of war.
21:53We don't have to convince you that we need peace.
21:58You, of course, already know this only too well.
22:03But we must, during such debates, try to understand each other, and try to see each other's point of view.
22:13The young Soviet regime proclaimed its love for peace.
22:20However, the number of executions since Lenin seized power is many times greater than the number during the last 50 years of czarist rule.
22:29The terrible tragedy of the rule of Stalin.
22:31The terrible tragedy of the rule of Stalin, under which millions of innocent Soviet citizens met their end at the hands of their own government,
22:41indicates that the historical tradition of rule by coercion of the Tartars and the czars, has not disappeared even in the Soviet period.
22:49And it highlights the impotence of the Soviet people before their government.
22:58In Helsinki watch groups throughout the Soviet Union, there had been more than 70 people.
23:04Today, more than 40 of them are in prison or internal exile.
23:08The combined total of their sentences is 220 years of internment and 125 years of exile.
23:17Over the course of its existence, the Moscow-Helsinki watch group published 194 documents
23:23dealing with violations by Soviet authorities of the Helsinki agreement.
23:29There is no trust between America and the Soviet Union.
23:32Over the course of 60 years, we have seen a differing America.
23:39We have seen an America rocked by the fear of McCarthyism.
23:42We have seen an hysterical America of the times of Dulles and Forrestal.
23:47We have seen an angry America and an America that was rocked with protest against the adventure in Vietnam.
23:53We have seen an America crushed by Watergate and a series of political assassinations.
23:58We see now an alarmed America, an America thinking about the fate of the world and about its own fate in that world.
24:05We would like to see a mature America, a balanced America,
24:08an America which understands its responsibilities before today's immature generation,
24:13an America which realizes that politics is the art of possibilities.
24:18It is possible that our opponents will not agree with our conceptions of peace.
24:23So what of it? Let's argue about it. Let's argue this point.
24:28When has our government ever violated an agreement?
24:41I've already told you about these violations of the Helsinki Accords.
24:45What concretely are you referring to?
24:48I have in mind the many thousands of people, for example, who are waiting for the right to immigrate.
24:54The Soviet government will not allow them to immigrate.
24:56But you yourself have said that in your country, Soviet people are standing in line.
25:01No, I didn't say in our country.
25:03I said in other countries they are standing in line in order to come to America.
25:07I know that these immigrants are filling out the army of the unemployed.
25:11And I know very well that these foreigners, and they, by the way,
25:14are now called in the American press the stokers of Europe.
25:18These foreigners do not have the same rights as Americans.
25:24They receive a lower wage for the same amount of work.
25:29And for this reason now, in particular, very many Spaniards are demanding their return from the United States of America
25:37due to the sharp decrease of their welfare.
25:41That is to say, discrimination against foreign workers,
25:45which is taking place in the United States as a clear result of re-economics.
25:48What is your opinion?
25:55Why has the United States of America refused to complete negotiations
25:59for the complete ban of the testing of nuclear weapons?
26:02As you know, in America, in the American Senate,
26:07when talks were being held on SALT II,
26:10before the invasion by Soviet troops into Afghanistan,
26:15there was every reason to believe that these proposals would have been accepted.
26:24But after the invasion by Soviet troops into Afghanistan,
26:28and after events in Poland,
26:31the American government decided that it would be better to wait.
26:39May I answer?
26:43In my opinion, as you all know,
26:48Ronald Reagan thinks that the United States of America
26:53is weaker than the Soviet Union.
26:56Yes, you have heard what he said
27:00in regards to the arms race and so forth.
27:05And in order to catch up with the Soviet Union,
27:09I think that he thinks
27:11that we need to test new arms.
27:15And that is an explanation and not a defense.
27:20And that is why he has done this.
27:23This is my guess.
27:25I'm not sure about his reasons.
27:39Do you really believe what you said?
27:44Of course I believe it.
27:45What you were saying about us,
27:50it sounded nightmarish to us.
27:52It was awful and funny.
27:54It sounded so wild, so crazy.
27:58It was all so strange.
28:00We couldn't believe it.
28:03You shouldn't take this as a personal attack.
28:06It was all on the line of our debate.
28:07But in our point of view,
28:09it is correct.
28:14It is very difficult to understand
28:16why you signed these agreements.
28:18And then, as I said,
28:19it wasn't we who were saying this,
28:21but the Helsinki watch groups in Moscow and Odessa.
28:26Why, for example, was Sakharov exiled?
28:28Why was Solzhenitsyn exiled?
28:30This is very difficult to understand
28:33because there is no such thing in the United States.
28:35But that is not right.
28:37That is not the way it is.
28:38Everything you are saying, that is not true.
28:40But what about Sakharov,
28:42who has done so much for the Soviet Union?
28:44Why is it that all of a sudden
28:45he has become a slanderer of the state?
28:47Why is it that all his life
28:53he devoted all his efforts
28:54to help the Soviet government,
28:56and then all of a sudden,
28:57for no apparent reason,
28:58he becomes a traitor?
28:59Well, yes, what you are talking about,
29:02we know that we have had some shortcomings.
29:04What was it that incited him
29:05to become a traitor
29:06when all his life he gave to...
29:08Tell me, please,
29:09before the Great October Revolution,
29:11the Russian people
29:11weren't happy with their life.
29:13Is that not so?
29:14And that is why
29:15they overthrew the government.
29:16But now the Soviet people
29:17are satisfied with their government.
29:19So why should they hold differing views?
29:21Sakharov, that was just one person.
29:26My dear boy,
29:27should our revolution have been bloodless?
29:29You spoke about blood being spilled.
29:31That was a revolution.
29:32It was a war.
29:34But I never said that it wasn't proper.
29:35No, it was a revolution.
29:37The same thing happened
29:38in your American revolution.
29:40And in certain instances,
29:41this is justified.
29:43I agree with you
29:43that a revolution
29:44is the spilling of blood.
29:46But it is difficult
29:46for Americans
29:47to understand
29:48the bloodshed under Stalin,
29:50the spilling of Soviet blood
29:51by their own government.
29:54But the revolution
29:55was continuing.
29:58Robespierre,
29:59the great Frenchman,
30:00he was killed
30:01by his own government.
30:02It was a revolution.
30:03He gave his life
30:04to the revolution,
30:05but it doesn't mean
30:06that the significance
30:07of the revolution
30:07was any less.
30:09But Soviets
30:09who were sent
30:10to concentration camps,
30:11they were absolutely innocent.
30:13Well, my dear,
30:14that's as we say.
30:21With Bill's question
30:24left unanswered,
30:25the team leaves Volgograd
30:26for a long night's journey
30:28by plane
30:28and then train
30:29to Leningrad.
30:31Filming is forbidden
30:33on any train
30:34or within any railroad station
30:35in the Soviet Union
30:36for reasons
30:37of state security.
30:39A curious precaution
30:40in an age
30:40of satellite surveillance,
30:42but a constant reminder
30:43that the Soviet Union
30:44is still a highly controlled
30:46and secretive society.
30:48In Leningrad,
30:49the debaters
30:50must devise a strategy
30:51to penetrate
30:52this closed perspective.
30:55You know,
30:56the need for information
30:57that we seek,
30:59the need for openness,
31:00is not apparently obvious
31:02to them all the time.
31:04And a lot of times
31:05you've got to put
31:06a reason
31:07with that argument
31:09about the need
31:10for information.
31:11You know,
31:11how is it going to help
31:12the society
31:13to have that kind
31:13of information there?
31:14See, that to me
31:17just seems so obvious
31:18that the plane goes down
31:19and people are killed.
31:21It seems to me
31:22that in any
31:23civilized country
31:24the need for that
31:25would just be self-evident.
31:26That you need
31:27a passenger list
31:29because how else
31:29can you identify
31:30bodies and notify
31:32the families?
31:32Because, let's see,
31:33they don't.
31:34Because they keep track
31:34of things like that.
31:36They know where people are.
31:37You study Russian
31:39literature and history.
31:40You know this desire
31:41for secrecy.
31:42It's a whole part
31:44of the whole history.
31:46And see,
31:46they just project
31:47the same things
31:47on us
31:48just like we project
31:50our things on them.
31:51It's only if we can
31:51try and get out of that
31:53that we've got a chance here.
31:56Okay.
31:57All right?
31:58The press, or newspapers,
32:06Lenin said,
32:07is an arm of propaganda
32:09and agitation.
32:10But what disturbs me
32:11in this quote is
32:12he doesn't speak
32:13about the most important thing.
32:18Because for the American newspapers
32:20the most important thing
32:21is not propaganda
32:22or agitation.
32:23the most important goal
32:24the main goal
32:26is to inform.
32:28It is to tell
32:29what is happening
32:30and not to interpret it
32:31as a scene fit
32:32by that publication.
32:36But Lenin does not say
32:37anything about
32:37the main goal
32:38of the newspaper
32:39being to inform.
32:41He doesn't even
32:41use the word.
32:42The thing is
32:46that the bourgeois
32:46American media
32:47begins from birth
32:48to get its readers
32:49used to the idea
32:50that the Soviet Union
32:51is in essence
32:52an aggressive country
32:53and that the Soviet Union
32:54is merely waiting
32:55for the right opportunity
32:56to attack the United States.
32:58It often reaches
32:59a point of paradox.
33:00Recently,
33:01I read an issue
33:01of the U.S. News
33:02and World Report
33:03from September 20th.
33:05And this article
33:06talked about
33:06a special part
33:07of the American Armed Forces
33:08which is based
33:09in California
33:09at Fort Irving.
33:10They were dressed
33:11in Soviet uniforms
33:12and armed the Soviet weapons
33:13and they were asked
33:14to play the role
33:15of the Soviet aggressor
33:16in American military maneuvers.
33:18Naturally,
33:18after reading such an article
33:20many may begin to think
33:21that the Soviet Union
33:22is in fact
33:23getting ready
33:23to attack the United States.
33:25I would like to know
33:30how can you talk
33:31about the American
33:32mass media?
33:33After all,
33:34we don't have
33:35just one organ
33:36of the press.
33:37There are
33:38conservative journals.
33:40There are journals
33:41which are very
33:41friendly towards
33:42the Soviet Union
33:43in general.
33:45I simply
33:46don't understand
33:47how you can make
33:48such a generalization.
33:52I will try
33:55to answer your question.
33:56When I was introduced,
33:58you were told
33:58that I am a teacher
33:59of the Russian language
34:00to foreigners.
34:01In particular,
34:02I work with students
34:03from the United States.
34:04And once we were
34:05having a discussion
34:05about how the Soviet Union
34:07is portrayed
34:07in the American
34:08mass media
34:09and how America
34:10is portrayed
34:10in the mass media
34:11of the Soviet Union.
34:12The American students
34:14tried to prove to me
34:15precisely what you
34:16are saying
34:16in your question.
34:17And I asked them
34:18to document this.
34:20They brought to me
34:21all the American
34:22publications
34:23for the past month
34:24they could find
34:24in Leningrad.
34:25A whole stack.
34:27From among
34:27those publications,
34:28there were approximately
34:2940 articles
34:30about the Soviet Union.
34:32We looked through
34:32them together.
34:33There was not
34:34one article
34:35that had even
34:36one positive thing
34:37to say about
34:38the Soviet Union.
34:39Not anything
34:40positive.
34:41Then we looked
34:42at the Soviet press
34:43for the same period,
34:44the essential Soviet papers,
34:45and we found
34:46several articles
34:47which spoke about
34:48the achievements
34:48of the American people
34:49culturally
34:50and economically.
34:53Please,
34:54show us these articles.
34:56They have asked
34:56for examples.
34:57Please,
34:58let me show them.
35:00Here is the newspaper
35:01Pravda
35:02from October 15th.
35:04In Washington,
35:05the creation
35:06of an anti-military
35:07coalition
35:07has been announced
35:08against the nuclear threat.
35:10It is comprised
35:11of many American
35:12peace supporters.
35:13And,
35:14as we can see,
35:15in this small column
35:16there is positive
35:16information about
35:17the anti-military
35:18movement
35:19and its participants.
35:20And we can read
35:21from a fresh newspaper.
35:23Here,
35:23you can look at it.
35:32perhaps I didn't pose
35:36my question
35:37quite clearly enough.
35:39Show me something
35:40positive,
35:41anything positive,
35:43about my government
35:45in the Soviet press.
35:46I think
35:53that from the speeches
35:54of our three
35:55American colleagues
35:56there was one main thought.
35:58We know
35:58that the American people
35:59are for peace,
36:00but we have
36:01such a government.
36:02If it is difficult
36:03for you to find
36:04something positive
36:05in the actions
36:05of your government,
36:07it is even more
36:08difficult for us.
36:09I would like to say
36:18that in Pravda
36:19it has also been written
36:20that the Soviet government
36:21respects the Helsinki Accord.
36:23But the 40 members
36:24of the Helsinki watch group
36:25who are now sitting
36:26in prison
36:26do not agree with this.
36:28And these are
36:28Soviet citizens.
36:33Everyone whom
36:34I know that left,
36:35they were forced
36:36to renounce
36:36their Soviet citizenship.
36:38Of course,
36:38that is not true.
36:39How can you say no?
36:40They signed.
36:41They had to sign.
36:42Jews, when they leave,
36:43they have to sign.
36:45They have to renounce
36:45their Soviet citizenship.
36:47That is a fact.
36:48But they leave
36:48not because
36:49they ask
36:50that they be let go.
36:53But they don't ask
36:54that their Soviet citizenship
36:55be taken away.
36:56Yes, yes.
36:58They ask that their,
36:59they themselves
36:59renounce
37:00their Soviet citizenship.
37:01No, that is not it.
37:02I know.
37:03No, they renounce
37:04their Soviet citizenship
37:05themselves.
37:06No.
37:08Well, wait now.
37:10I have to tell Michael
37:11a little bit about
37:12the Aurora,
37:12the ship.
37:18It's a shame
37:19that they can't leave
37:20and then come back
37:21the way you can
37:22in so many other countries.
37:23From other countries,
37:24you can leave,
37:25you can go live
37:25in another country
37:26for a while
37:27and come back
37:27and it's not considered
37:28any sort of a crime.
37:30But here,
37:31if you decide
37:32you want to go live
37:33somewhere else,
37:34you are labeled a traitor
37:35and you're stripped
37:37of your citizenship.
37:39Frustration mounts
37:40as the team prepares
37:41to leave Leningrad.
37:43The debater's schedule
37:44is so tightly planned
37:45that an early morning jog
37:47is Margaret's
37:47only free time
37:48to explore the city
37:49she once knew
37:50as a student.
37:51Next stop,
37:52Estonia
37:53and an on-the-bus
37:54strategy session
37:55to prepare
37:56for the fifth debate.
37:57We're constantly
37:58in our arguments
38:00arguing for the value
38:02of different points of view,
38:03free speech, etc.
38:06We've never, though,
38:08anywhere justified
38:09that value.
38:11Otherwise,
38:12what does it do
38:13for us as a society
38:14to have multiple points of view?
38:16Because you're getting
38:17arguments like yesterday
38:19from the Soviet point of view.
38:20I'm sorry to say that.
38:21Yeah, I should do.
38:22Just a second.
38:22The Soviets argue
38:25like it's for the individual
38:26to run counter
38:27to the state
38:28is a drawback.
38:30Now, what it assumes
38:32at all points of view
38:33is that the state
38:35knows best.
38:36And the usual justification
38:38that we will give
38:39is simply that
38:40we don't know.
38:42It's only out of
38:43multiple points of view
38:45you can find
38:45the best point of view
38:46because human beings
38:47are fallible.
38:48We also...
38:49I see what you're saying.
38:49How did you phrase it?
38:51I simply said that
38:52the argument is
38:54that we're not perfect.
38:56We don't know
38:56what's right
38:57for a government.
38:59One person doesn't.
39:00There's a couple more
39:01like that
39:02on the ground, too.
39:03The National Liberation Wars.
39:05History shows
39:06that whenever
39:07the Soviet Union
39:08so-called liberates
39:09a country,
39:10usually that country
39:11falls under the domination
39:12of the Soviet Union.
39:14And a terrific example
39:15is Estonia
39:16that was first liberated
39:18and then annexed.
39:20Bill has been to Estonia
39:21before
39:21and suspects that here,
39:23if anywhere in the Soviet Union,
39:25his views might find
39:26a receptive audience.
39:28This small republic
39:29on the Baltic Sea
39:30has its own distinct language
39:31and a history
39:32of hundreds of years
39:33of intellectual freedom
39:34prior to annexation
39:36by the Soviet Union
39:37during World War II.
39:38The debate
39:39is at Tartu State University,
39:41the 300-year-old
39:42academic center
39:43of Estonia.
39:44Both teams
39:45share an equal disadvantage.
39:47Russian
39:47is a foreign language
39:49for everyone.
39:53In Berlin,
39:54there stands
39:54a monument
39:55built by the Soviet Union.
39:57It is a monument
39:58to the Soviet system
39:59of values,
40:00the Soviet rule
40:01by coercion.
40:02I am speaking
40:03of the Berlin Wall.
40:05This wall
40:06testifies
40:07more eloquently
40:08than anything
40:09as to the Soviet
40:10system of values,
40:11which does not
40:12give people
40:13the right to choose
40:14where they want to live.
40:17Between America
40:18and the Soviet Union,
40:19there is no trust.
40:21Americans cannot
40:22understand
40:23the violence
40:23perpetrated
40:24on the Soviet people
40:25by the Soviet government.
40:27It seems to us,
40:28correctly or incorrectly,
40:30that the Soviet people
40:31are not capable
40:32of restraining
40:33their government.
40:34The absence of trust
40:35leads to fear.
40:37fear leads
40:38to a military buildup.
40:41The arms race
40:42is complete insanity.
40:45When will it cease?
40:46Only when we love
40:47our children
40:48more than we fear
40:49each other.
40:49We simple American
40:54and Soviet people
40:55must exert
40:56an influence
40:57on our governments
40:58to put an end
40:59to this threat
41:00of war.
41:01Then the slogan
41:02peace unto the world
41:03will cease
41:04being merely a slogan
41:05and will become
41:06a reality.
41:08I am a student
41:21of geography.
41:24I would like
41:25to ask
41:25the American team
41:26of the world.
41:27The remark
41:30of Alexander Haig
41:31was pointed out here.
41:33He said
41:33that there are
41:34things that are
41:34more important
41:35than world peace
41:36than peace
41:39throughout the world.
41:40What do you think?
41:41What did he mean
41:43by this?
41:45Well,
41:46I don't know
41:47what Haig
41:47had in mind.
41:48But what is your opinion?
41:50For me,
41:55for example,
41:56there is something
41:56more important
41:57than peace
41:58and that is freedom.
42:01If I can't live
42:04the way I want to,
42:06if I am not free
42:07to say what I want
42:08and write
42:08and read
42:09and discuss things
42:10freely with others,
42:12then I would
42:14struggle against
42:16anyone who wants
42:17to take this freedom
42:18away from me.
42:20The team revels
42:24in the positive
42:25Estonian response,
42:26but John and Margaret,
42:27feeling sympathy
42:28for kindred spirits,
42:30chide Bill
42:30for not moderating
42:31his standard attack
42:32on the Soviet system.
42:33I mean,
42:34you were doing
42:34all my money
42:35and I think
42:36I should have got
42:37on those four people
42:37who were the nicest
42:38people we've ever.
42:39Don't we?
42:39May they ask us
42:40if we want us for my God?
42:41Because they were
42:43a sympathetic audience.
42:44But it's not fair
42:44to our opponents.
42:45Well,
42:46I don't know.
42:46I was probably saying
42:47many of the things
42:48that they would like to say.
42:49Yeah, but then
42:49they wouldn't have
42:51responded.
42:52They have to defend it.
42:53It's just like
42:54we don't have to defend
42:54everything now.
42:55Everyone does.
42:56So, you know,
42:56they do.
43:00That's the difference.
43:03What are we having now?
43:04We're having a TV interview.
43:05They've been dying
43:07for 30 years to say.
43:08Well, Bill,
43:10somebody stabbed me
43:11out of the hall
43:12and said,
43:12tell Bill
43:14William Skundrich
43:15that when he becomes
43:16president
43:17to come back
43:18to Tartu.
43:20Okay.
43:27Okay,
43:27start it over
43:28in a lower key.
43:30Lower key.
43:31We use
43:32necks
43:32I don't need
43:35on the
43:35the
43:37Pass it over
43:37Mads
43:39was
43:39one
43:40and
43:41throw it
43:42on the
43:43ground
43:45in a
43:47tree.
43:48The
43:49ども
43:49A
43:49kick
43:51on the
43:54physical
43:56land
43:58this is probably the greatest here which i
44:28expected it to be because these people i remember even the last time i was here
44:35um even our soviet guy told us to speak english rather than russian because
44:42you know of attitudes here towards the russians but as far as the debate you know i think this
44:47was one of the more successful ones i mean they were clearly sympathetic
44:54i think we'll face something very different in kiev
44:58naturally the soviet union does not want a war with america but the absence of nuclear war is not
45:12peace when soviet leaders and newspapers repeat constantly that the ideological struggle shall
45:18continue it is hard for us to believe that what they have in mind are philosophical debates
45:24and not all sorts of subversive activity soviet leaders openly declare that they will always
45:32support wars of liberation for us this incitement to war is nothing more than a euphemism for soviet
45:39domination at the same time the soviet union constantly talks about its efforts for peace
45:46but such rhetoric would be more convincing if at the present time the soviet union was not flooding the
45:51yemens with arms or was not supporting the takeover of indochina by vietnam or if there were not
45:59approximately 100 000 soviet soldiers in afghanistan where even according to the most modest estimates
46:07soviet bombardment mines and poisonous gases have killed nearly a million peaceful citizens
46:13simply because they did not submit to their invaders
46:22you perhaps find this amusing but mothers are crying over the bloody bodies of their sons
46:27my question is for scondridge he just spoke about he continuously asserts this is the second time already
46:41that he has said that during the stalinist repression millions of people died
46:44could he cite the precise figure because for some reason in our literature we don't encounter this
46:57some historians say 12 million sold in each and for example who i know is not very respected here
47:04says it was up to 60 million
47:05so it really depends on the sources but you know we always have a problem when it comes to statistics
47:18because as you have seen our respected colleagues in their speeches often cited statistics which they
47:23got from american sources american newspapers american journals but this is harder for us because even
47:30though we have soviet journals and soviet newspapers we don't have the statistics because in your newspapers
47:36they simply don't write the statistics so therefore we simply can't cite them
47:43i will perhaps be immodest but i would like for you upon your return to america to ask this question in
47:49the south bronx of new york where there are 800 000 unemployed and exposed people living
47:56a region which has declared a national disaster area in the united states of america an area which
48:05if i can state it this way looks like kiev in 1943 where there are destroyed buildings and children who
48:12are running among the bricks pose this question to those people and then take them to 52nd street and the
48:21avenue of the america to the playboy club and let those people that you take there discuss this question
48:30with members of that club and let them recall the declaration of independence of the united states
48:37of america in which it is stated let them recall that all people are born equally before god they have
48:44the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness every 10th man in america is unemployed we know about
48:54this remember give the pittsburgh delivery i mean you have to be angry but but don't be i don't think i
49:05was apologetic not apologetic no i think that's my reaction i was just laughing at them because of their
49:13this pat response you know you just knew how they were going to react there's a really predictable
49:19audience that is quite something in the snow the team returns to moscow fueled only by the knowledge
49:28that their odyssey will be over after the last debate at moscow state university well here is the
49:35beginning of the end the most important thing in america is the individual whereas in your country it
49:49turns out the most important thing is the state this difference is reflected in our social value systems
49:55and consequently in the capability of the people to exert an influence on war and peace
50:00in regards to the foreign policies of our countries i thank you here it should be said that our two sides
50:14have a somewhat different approach the thing is as john has said many times the american people often find
50:22it necessary to protest against their government and we can only pity them that the american people do not
50:29have the kind of government which they can completely trust and which would answer for their interests
50:38and as far as the soviet union is concerned then i as a simple soviet citizen can tell you that the
50:45soviet people soviet citizens have no need to criticize their government because we trust it
50:52you have spoken about our military strategies and you said that supposedly your country has no such
51:03strategies i would like to know how do you know that you don't have any similar strategies because where
51:11are your war strategies ever published where are your military expenditures ever published we have the
51:20opportunity to express our own opinions and our attitudes towards policies of the press and therefore
51:26our strategies are a strategy towards peace this in my opinion is known everywhere and the strategies which
51:32have been openly declared by the american administration naturally cannot go without arousing the indignation of
51:39the american people themselves because in my opinion it would simply be madness to support a government
51:44which puts forth the concepts of first nuclear strike or a limited nuclear war not a single soviet political
51:51or social figure has ever put forth such proposals
52:00you have said that war propaganda is prohibited by law in the soviet union
52:04but apparently military actions are not prohibited in as much as you are now fighting in afghanistan
52:14so my question is the following
52:19what good is such a law if it doesn't inhibit military action
52:23i would like to say i would like to remind you as a historian that neither our leadership
52:35nor figures of our communist party have ever said that we completely refuse to acknowledge war
52:42we acknowledge wars of liberation the war which is being conducted by the afghan people is a war of the people
52:49for their own liberation therefore this war we support without question
52:59they've heard what we had to say we've heard what they think
53:02and uh now it's up to all of us to just think about what we've all heard on both sides and uh you know
53:11that process is a slow one so i don't think we could even expect any immediate results
53:17from anything we've done here and yet i think uh we wouldn't work has been made we're not trying
53:24to change the soviet union we're just trying to open their minds a little bit right open the minds
53:28of the people maybe help them understand why we think the way we do even if they still disagree with
53:32it if they understand you know why we have this point of view i think the hardest part was that
53:38if we actually reached somebody you know if we made them think no one was going to come up and say you
53:44know i liked your speech and i thought that you made some really good points you changed my mind
53:48about my country no you know no one's going to do that but i'm sure that in somewhere in those eight
53:55audiences that we had some effect yeah and i guess that's all we can hope for
54:00that final handshake the word drushba it means friendship but friendship must come from
54:15understanding maybe it's easier for the soviets to learn about us being an open society but how much
54:21of an effort are we really making to learn about them severe budget cuts by government and foundations
54:28have affected virtually all soviet studies programs take language enrollment in russian language
54:34courses has declined by more than one-third in the past 10 years classical latin is now more popular
54:41than russian on college campuses and by contrast it's almost routine for english to be taught in soviet
54:48high schools one positive note however tomorrow congress begins hearings on legislation to train more
54:55specialists in soviet affairs may not seem like much but as bill scundrich the student from pittsburgh
55:03said at the close of his russian journey the process of understanding is a slow one but perhaps we've made a start
55:11next week on frontline the story of a remarkable woman her name is daisy you will never forget daisy
55:23our looks important to men around day yes definitely so when you see five women ten women
55:32the first impression is what makes you select them isn't it yes before you open the package you look at
55:38the wrapping don't you yes
55:43daisy is getting older like thousands of others she is thinking of having cosmetic surgery
55:51she is asking how much does attractiveness matter in our society especially for a woman
55:57look marriages come and go everyone knows children come and go money comes and goes careers
56:10come and go the only thing you stuck with is yourself
56:17the program is called daisy story of a facelift it is next week on frontline i'm jessica seven
56:27the
56:31the
56:33the
56:41the
56:43the
56:47the
56:49the
56:51the
56:53To be continued...
57:23...which is solely responsible for its content.
57:27Major funding for Frontline was provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
57:31Additional funding was provided by this station and other public television stations nationwide.
57:36And by the Chubb Group of Insurance Companies for over 100 years providing worldwide business and personal insurance through independent agents and brokers.
57:53The International Railroad solche expertise...
57:58...was to poder and local alcoholic bitcoin 사 chunky and corporation of Gro킥.
58:01And by the
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