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Lucy Letby Murder or Mistake S1E1
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FunTranscript
00:00If you're a doctor called to see a baby who's not very well at birth, not moving, not breathing,
00:19and within a few minutes of resuscitation you hear this very annoyed cry.
00:30It's brilliant, and eventually they go home and when they return for a routine review,
00:45now being well developed, two big eyes, big smile, that's very, very satisfying.
00:57Most babies who receive care in a neonatal unit not only survive, but survive and become healthy adults.
01:09Nursing staff in neonatal units are crucial. You rely on your nurses completely.
01:19What Lucy Lethby did is beyond understanding. It's utterly, incredibly shocking.
01:29Is she evil?
01:30Yes, she's evil. And I have no idea why anyone thinks that she's anything but guilty.
01:48It's just a message of fear.
02:00It appears as if she's left in an illness.
02:03It's a message. It's a message.
02:08You know, when I first went to see her, on my first visit, she was very wary of me.
02:26She doesn't know who I am.
02:30Why is it you're here?
02:33She wanted to know.
02:34Why me? To which I said, because I believe you're innocent, and she started to cry.
02:48Our criminal justice system has failed, has fundamentally failed.
02:56She's not innocent.
02:58The evidence was compelling, overwhelming, consistent.
03:02I'm astonished with what her current barrister is doing.
03:09I think it's been absolutely disgraceful.
03:15Behind these children are parents that are suffering.
03:21And what they will want, I am sure, at the end of the day, is the truth.
03:26The truth is the truth.
03:40The box I hate.
04:10The box is normally shoved in a cupboard.
04:15The box just gives you a horrible feeling in your stomach.
04:23We cried, didn't we, when we heard the verdict,
04:25because it was the verdict that we wanted.
04:29So we thought that she would get punished for what she'd done
04:33and we were able to then move on.
04:37But obviously it's not really worked like that.
04:42It's hard because obviously it's on the news and the radio most days.
04:46Even now?
04:47Even now.
04:48Yeah.
04:49I'm Commandant Sheborn and Brad.
05:02I'm Camarlandshire born and bred.
05:18My parents had a dairy farm just five miles away from where I now live.
05:26If you look back to the 1970s, the care of premature babies was very, very limited.
05:31So I set about developing a newborn service more or less from scratch.
05:39So I've got over 30 years of hands-on experience looking after sick babies.
05:48I heard about concerns regarding deaths of babies in Chester by chance from a Sunday newspaper.
05:57By that time, I'd prepared dozens of reports for police authorities as an expert witness.
06:04And on this particular occasion, I was exchanging emails about a completely unrelated case.
06:11And I sort of added and said, by the way, I've heard about this case where there are concerns regarding babies dying.
06:20And just added, it sounds like my kind of case.
06:24When I first met Chester police, they didn't know, nor did I, that they were investigating a crime at that time.
06:42They were just looking at a number of deaths on a year in Italy.
06:48There was a need for somebody from my background to find out what had led to these babies dying.
06:56So I said, let's look at a window of two years, 2015 and 2016, get me the clinical notes.
07:06I wanted to see all of them.
07:09What I discovered was that there were events where a baby would suddenly collapse, with most failing to respond to resuscitation.
07:20So all of this was very, very peculiar because babies on neonatal units don't suddenly deteriorate and die.
07:29It just doesn't happen suddenly.
07:31I identified a time and a date where there's somebody hurting these babies.
07:41This is not some sort of accident.
07:44This is not incompetence.
07:46Something deliberate has happened here.
07:51Intentional harm.
07:55What I said to the police was that they should look at the shift systems
07:59and find out who's on duty for all of these collapses.
08:04And in looking at all of these cases, all of these events occurred when these babies were in the care
08:11of one particular nurse, quite often in the sole care of one particular nurse.
08:19Hello Lucy, is it?
08:20Yeah.
08:20Hello, it's mine from Chesterfield.
08:22So I did step in two seconds.
08:23Oh yes.
08:24Yeah, thank you.
08:24So you're probably in the back seat over here.
08:44At the beginning, we didn't know that much about her, but we knew, you know,
08:51she was this blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pretty nurse that was the face of the hospital's fundraising campaign.
09:01There was nothing unusual about her.
09:04She was kind of this typical girl next door, I suppose.
09:08Everyone was shocked.
09:10I really don't think people could quite believe that a nurse could be responsible for something so horrendous.
09:19Within the space of a year, unusually, 15 babies died on the neonatal unit.
09:26And doctors noticed a common factor, Lucy Letby.
09:30The nurse had been on shift for all of the unexplained collapses.
09:34They told me that there would be a lot more deaths and that I've been linked to somebody that's there for a lot of them.
09:41Did you have any concerns that there was a rise in the mortality rate?
09:46Yes.
09:46OK, so tell me about that. What concerns did you have?
09:49Lucy Letby was born in Hereford, grew up there, went to school there, had dreams of becoming a child nurse.
10:13She had been working at the hospital since graduating from the University of Chester.
10:21She would go on holiday with friends that she worked with, attended salsa dance classes.
10:27All these things sound very normal. They don't sound like someone who was able to carry out such heinous crimes.
10:35Searches of her home in Chester and her parents' house in Hereford uncovered patient records and handwritten notes
10:42in which she says, I am evil. I did this.
10:45I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough. I am a horrible person.
10:54Dr Dowie Evans was the lead prosecution expert. It was his job to explain to the jury how these babies came to be murdered by Lucy Letby.
11:03She poisoned some with insulin, some she injected with excessive air, and others she simply physically assaulted.
11:13Her denials kept coming.
11:14I was in court as Lucy Letby gave evidence. She said all of this was a conspiracy against her, that she did nothing wrong.
11:22We can now report that Lucy Letby has been found guilty of the murder of seven babies.
11:29Do you feel as though justice has been served?
11:32Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
11:41Lucy Letby has now exhausted all her attempts to overturn these convictions.
11:54So she's now facing 15 life orders in prison.
11:59She will die in prison.
12:29You know, I grew up in a very rough council estate in Birmingham.
12:38I saw on a daily basis injustice.
12:41I started working on miscarriage justice cases actually when I was at university.
12:49And I wanted to help those who have been wrongly convicted of crimes.
12:56I wasn't always a criminal defence barrister. I spent 14 years in the National Health Service working as an operating theatre assistant.
13:04So my whole background has been NHS and an understanding of the difficulties of working under pressure with lack of resources.
13:12I have a client that says, I have a client that says that they're innocent.
13:19I have a conviction for murder.
13:23If they are innocent, then something went wrong.
13:25During the trial, the tsunami of media attention on her, of guilt, it all came from a specific perspective.
13:40And that perspective was all very one sided.
13:47I need to turn that around.
13:49I need to change the narrative.
13:52Hi there.
13:53Hi.
13:54How's it doing, Miss?
13:55We'll now let these planning a fresh appeal.
13:58I'm joined by Mark McDonald, her new barrister.
14:02Mark, thank you so much for joining us.
14:04Look, she was convicted in two separate trials in the last year, wasn't she?
14:09Is there really a strong case here that she's innocent?
14:15Absolutely, there is.
14:16I'm right at the start of this process.
14:19There are thousands of pages I need to read and get my head around.
14:23This is the Lucy Letby story.
14:25And certainly, this story really doesn't seem to be going away, Owen, does it?
14:29No, it really doesn't.
14:30It just seems to me that if you write down, I did it, I'm an evil person, that you're pretty much,
14:36I mean, Lucy Letby is sort of pretty much buying the rights here.
14:38Can I ask you finally, Mark McDonald, this is the first time some of these families are speaking publicly.
14:43And this article starts with them saying, we want to say, shame on you all.
14:47That's the message from those who are calling for the release of Lucy Letby.
14:56Lucy was convicted of seven counts of murder and seven counts of attempted murder.
15:02It's always a pattern in these cases and that pattern is that nurse is on duty.
15:14Then you have a number of unexplained deaths.
15:19And then in hindsight, it's always because that nurse did something.
15:24It's happened a number of times.
15:25There are four nurses currently in prison serving life for this type of event.
15:36Being armed and having the knowledge that I have of the nurse cases,
15:41from the moment she was arrested, I knew how it was going to play out.
15:45I could have written the prosecution's speech.
15:53It was textbook.
15:59I start right back from the beginning.
16:18Right back as if Lucy had just been arrested and she knocked on my door and she said, help me.
16:24I'm going to try and focus on six areas.
16:32So we know that she's been convicted and just recently her appeals have failed in the Court of Appeal.
16:40So there's only one option.
16:45The Criminal Cases Review Commission.
16:48This is a body set up to see whether or not the matter should be sent back to the Court of Appeal based upon new evidence.
16:55So that's the body I've got to deal with.
16:58That's what I've got to do.
16:59I've got to make an application based upon anything I can discover from going through these six main points.
17:09That's really my main focus of attention.
17:11If you're going to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, public pressure around a conviction
17:23will play upon the mind of those people.
17:25It will.
17:26Inevitably so.
17:31Now, you don't overturn a conviction because there's an article in the Times about it.
17:36The only way to overturn this conviction is to not just question the evidence that was put before the jury,
17:51but demolish it.
17:52I've been involved in court cases for over 30 years.
18:09And where my report was supportive of the prosecution, I've not lost a case.
18:17So, on the whole, I think my track record is very satisfactory.
18:22People seem to have forgotten that the victims are the babies.
18:30The victims are the families.
18:40The only people that know is our close friends and family.
18:51We've never gone public at all.
18:53It's nice to be able to tell our story because so many people have an opinion,
19:02but they weren't actually there and they didn't deal with her.
19:15Our son was born in the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2015.
19:20He was full-time and healthy.
19:22He'd been healthy all the way through the pregnancy, up to that point.
19:27He was taken away somewhere.
19:30They just said, oh, it's okay.
19:32He just needs a little bit of help breathing.
19:34We were taken back to the room where I'd been in labour and we were just left there on our own,
19:42not really knowing what was going on.
19:43We were obviously worried when we were there a couple of hours, wasn't we?
19:48It seemed to last forever, didn't it?
19:57Then a nurse came in with the box.
20:05She came straight up to us.
20:08I didn't really see her.
20:09I just saw the box and I burst into tears.
20:13I remember saying to her something like, oh my God, is he dead?
20:22And she just laughed.
20:26She was laughing when she thought that we thought the worst had happened.
20:33And she said, no, we just give these boxes out to all the parents of babies who've been really poorly.
20:40When she offered to take us to go and see him, Dr Breary was there.
20:48And he just explained that he didn't know what was really the issue.
20:54Three times he'd been resuscitated.
20:57They couldn't explain why.
21:01I was very upset. I was frightened.
21:04I just felt confused and just didn't make any sense.
21:12Dr Breary told us that he felt that with his condition, our son would be better cared for
21:21if he was sent to Liverpool Women's Hospital.
21:25Personally, I think he would have stayed at Chester. I think he'd have died.
21:29That decision is what saved him, I think.
21:34Yeah, and we'll always be grateful to that doctor for that, won't we?
21:37Mm-hmm.
21:40So away from Chester, we picked up really quickly and then we were sent back home again.
21:47It was only when we saw her face in the newspaper later on that we both recognised her straight away.
21:53And the nurse that gave us the box was Lucy Latbey.
22:12A lot of people ask me whether I think she's guilty or not.
22:26And I said the honest answer is I don't know.
22:29I just don't think she had a fair trial.
22:33I'm Dr Phil Hammond. I was an NHS doctor for 35 years.
22:36And alongside that, throughout my career, I've worked as an investigative journalist for Private Eye.
22:43The first big story I covered was the Bristol Heart scandal, which at the time morphed into the
22:47largest public inquiry in British history.
22:49I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the trial of Lucy Latbey, but when the verdict came out,
22:58I initially wrote a column supporting it.
23:02And then my inbox filled up with emails from really eminent people,
23:07including some of the most senior people in these fields, saying,
23:10actually, no, I think you're wrong.
23:11And that really started to worry me, so that's when I stopped sleeping.
23:14I knew it was going to be tough and difficult, but there was no alternative other than to investigate.
23:23The bottom line for me is, does the evidence stack up?
23:29This is the trial of Lucy Latbey.
23:32Today we'll be bringing you everything that happened.
23:34In the end, the jury decided that Lucy Latbey was guilty.
23:38But I think all of us that were sat there in that courtroom
23:41understood why they'd come to that decision.
23:45It was multiple strands of evidence.
23:47The medical evidence was obviously important,
23:49but there was lots of different pieces of the jigsaw that came together.
23:54One of the most incriminating pieces of evidence was the green post-it note
23:59on which she'd written,
24:01I am evil. I did this.
24:04And I killed them on purpose.
24:05I think the police couldn't quite believe it, that they'd found something so significant
24:13when they'd raided her house.
24:16I think the confession notes matter.
24:17And I think they were highly convincing to the jury.
24:21What the jury didn't hear is that she was encouraged to write them by her counsellor.
24:26It's all the difficult emotions and feelings going to your mind.
24:29I want you to write them down.
24:32She also wrote slander, discrimination, why me?
24:36I haven't done anything wrong.
24:38It was a counselling exercise.
24:43The police uncovered 250 handover notes,
24:47most of which were in a bag under her bed.
24:51Those notes are supposed to go in the confidential waste bin.
24:53They aren't ever supposed to go home with staff.
24:57The prosecution said this was evidence that Lucy Letby was keeping trophies of her crimes.
25:04Loads of nurses have said to me that they commonly take handover notes home with them by mistake.
25:08They've got them there and it just happens because you're so busy at the end of the day.
25:12They discovered that she'd done hundreds and hundreds of Facebook searches,
25:16often for the parents of the babies that she murdered and harmed.
25:20Some of the searches took place at very odd times, late on Christmas Day.
25:27The nurse who I interviewed said, yeah, we do Facebook searches.
25:30We keep in touch with people.
25:33It's only seen as suspicious through the context of someone you think is a mass murderer.
25:37So after a trial lasting for over 10 months and more than 110 hours of painstaking deliberation,
25:44it was the sum total.
25:46You can't take one piece of evidence and say that proves she's innocent or guilty.
25:54It was almost entirely circumstantial.
25:56It was a very proficient and aggressive prosecution case.
26:02But when you actually said, where's the evidence?
26:05It just wasn't there.
26:14It's right, isn't it, not to say, as many people have said, that the health of many of these babies was very poor.
26:35Um, and that many, um, and that many, and that many, that, you see, that is, that is incorrect.
26:42That is incorrect.
26:42I've been involved in that.
26:44Well, well, they were in a high dependency unit, weren't they?
26:46At the time, none of these deaths were seen to be deliberate actions.
26:50There were a number of post-mortems on the babies that found that they had died of natural causes.
26:56And once the police got involved, they contact a senior coroner.
27:00She goes back and she says, there's nothing suspicious here.
27:05But they don't listen to that.
27:07And they carry on with the investigation.
27:09Then, fallen into their lap, appears Dr. Darry Evans.
27:18Dr. Darry Evans jumps in a car, drives up to the police station.
27:34They give him a set of notes of one of the patients to which Lucy Letby had been looking after.
27:40And he says, within 10 minutes, I knew that deliberate harm had been caused to this baby.
27:53There were other medical experts in this case for the prosecution.
27:57And there was a neonatologist called.
28:03She was only brought in to peer review what Darry Evans had said.
28:09He's the one that was there right at the beginning.
28:15That the whole thing rests upon him.
28:20If he is wrong, then like a pack of cards, the whole case falls apart.
28:26Since the trial, I can't find another neonatal expert who's prepared to back up his ideas.
28:38Find me one.
28:39I've said to Darry Evans, you must know people who prepare to back you up.
28:42He said, oh, I'm out of touch with everyone now.
28:44I can't find anyone.
28:45That's extraordinary to me.
28:47At the trial of Lucy Letby, the question was, did she do it?
28:56Now, the start of the public inquiry.
28:59Set up to answer different questions about what happened at this hospital.
29:04But with growing speculation about this case in recent weeks,
29:08with more questions about the verdicts,
29:11the chair of the inquiry began this morning by saying this.
29:15In the months since the Court of Appeal handed down its judgment,
29:20there has been a huge outpouring of comment from a variety of quarters
29:26on the validity of the convictions.
29:30So far as I'm aware, it has come entirely from people who were not at the trial.
29:35I think the inquiry is looking at all events leading up to the deaths of these babies.
29:42It's not looking at whether Lucy Letby is guilty or not.
29:46That's been agreed in a court, so there's no question about her guilt.
29:52What is astonishing is the noise from people who feel that they can make outrageous comments
30:00comments through scientific papers such as Private Eye.
30:10The most hysterical support for Lucy Letby has come from the great metropolitan elite,
30:18which people who have been told, or what I call them, God's most entitled.
30:23In Wales, you know, we've been told for the past 700 years,
30:28you know, that we're not good enough.
30:32Ever since the Lucy Letby case came up on my radar, I haven't really slept.
30:51I'm thinking about it every single night.
30:53I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking, have we got this right?
30:55Are we going wrong?
30:56I think what worries me most about this is, you know, hundreds of babies die avoidably
31:05in the UK, in the NHS, every year because they don't get superb care.
31:12And Chester clearly had problems with staffing.
31:16In the middle of the deaths, one of the consultants wrote to the manager and said,
31:21we're seriously understaffed, we don't have enough incubators, the whole thing's fallen to pieces.
31:26And if you don't sort it out, babies are going to keep dying.
31:30There was clearly serious problems.
31:33So if there are plausible alternative explanations to this that aren't murder, such as suboptimal
31:38care, and Mark McDonnell can show that in a few cases, then all of the cases may fall.
31:56I think it would be good to do it face to face with him.
31:59I've now been approached by two neonatologists.
32:03Both of them seem to be incredibly experienced, and both of them are willing to help.
32:10They've got access to the medical records, and they are working on it.
32:14I've been working as a consultant in a tertiary neonatal unit for just over 25 years now.
32:28My role as a medical expert witness is to go through the evidence in detail, and to try to reveal the truth of what has happened to these babies.
32:42The first report that we looked at was on baby O.
32:54Today, in this episode, we're focusing on the 15th baby in the case,
32:58who the prosecution say Lucy let be murdered during her first shift back at work,
33:03after her holiday to Ibiza at the end of June 2016.
33:06Baby O was a baby that was one of three identical triplets,
33:10and when Lucy let be came on to shift, there were no concerns about baby O's health,
33:15but a few hours later, he collapsed and started to deteriorate.
33:20He then collapsed a second time, and then passed away.
33:28The doctors could find no medical explanation for this,
33:31other than Lucy let be was around at the time of his collapse.
33:34I saw pictures of the autopsy.
33:40There were incredible abnormalities in the liver.
33:45The pathology opinion was that the liver abnormalities were so severe
33:49that they looked like what you'd get in a road traffic accident.
33:53I had concluded that this baby had suffered from trauma to the liver,
33:59but as well as that, this baby was the victim of air injected into the bloodstream.
34:05You've both put together a joint report on baby O.
34:21And for the purpose of this discussion,
34:23baby O is the one said by the prosecution
34:27that Lucy let be somehow damaged the liver by some blunt trauma.
34:35Is there a reason for his collapse?
34:39I think the overall conclusion that we came to is that there are justifiable medical explanations
34:49which led to the collapse of baby O and the first signs of a change happened around about midnight.
35:01We can see in those charts changes in temperature, changes in heart rate
35:06and some gradual increase in abdominal distention that was noticed by the nursing staff.
35:14He had two medical reviews and neither picked up on the changes.
35:19This had happened overnight.
35:21I mean, is that surprising? Is that something that you would expect?
35:23I think that's not desirable.
35:26It should have been picked up.
35:27It should have been picked up.
35:28Yes.
35:29Yes.
35:29It was then at 2.40...
35:31I can see there was the emergency call.
35:34Why do you think this trial did not respond to the resuscitation?
35:40I was instantly struck by the use of these extreme high ventilator pressures.
35:46During the resuscitation?
35:47During the resuscitation.
35:49It meant that the lungs were pushing right down on the diaphragm
35:53At a late point in the resuscitation, one of the consultants who was there
35:56decided to put a needle into the abdomen to decompress it.
36:00Would that have been a cause of action you would have chosen to have done?
36:04Absolutely not.
36:06So the most likely consequence of that is that as you put the needle in,
36:11there would be some bleeding and you would cause damage to the liver.
36:16This cannula insertion into the liver have caused that amount of bleeding.
36:20Yes, we believe there is good evidence to suggest that it did so.
36:24Without a doubt, this is not a query.
36:27This is what happened.
36:28It is obvious.
36:32Okay.
36:33All right.
36:33Well, thank you for that.
36:35That's very helpful.
36:36I think it's now my turn to get this to the Criminal Cases Review Commissioners as soon as I can.
36:51I have never read a more detailed report than the report that they repaid.
36:58The two experts say that no crime was committed.
37:07If they are all right, then Lucy Letby did not harm his child.
37:12When Lucy Letby came in and gave me the box, I opened it.
37:29There's a wrist strap.
37:33There's a baby hat.
37:35There's a blanket.
37:36There's a blanket.
37:38And then we had the notepad, which she told me, oh, you can keep that as a diary.
37:49I think if something like the box would be given later on or after we'd seen him or after they'd explained something,
37:58it might have been different, but at that point in time, to come in and laugh, it's just not normal, is it?
38:10I just think he's done something.
38:12Obviously, there's no concrete evidence.
38:14We don't have a magic ball that we can go back and look at, but it's just too much.
38:22He was fine when he was smaller, wasn't he?
38:24Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:25It wasn't until he was about five years old when we started having serious issues with him.
38:33He is delayed at school by about two years from where he should be.
38:37He still can't write very well.
38:40And he's had really bad seizures where they've not stopped for 15, 20 minutes.
38:51The first one was horrific, wasn't it?
38:54Mm-hmm. Yeah, just come out of nowhere, didn't it?
38:58Occasionally, he'll ask us, if he has a fit, will he die?
39:02And that, I find, the most scary thing.
39:05All weekend, he kept saying to me, I wish I was normal.
39:08I wish I was normal.
39:09And it's so sad, because I keep trying to say to him, well, you are normal for you.
39:16Like, we love you how you are.
39:18But he just wants to be like everyone else.
39:22The day that she was given a sentence, obviously, it was all over the news.
39:27He'd seen it on the telly.
39:28And he saw our reactions.
39:32Yeah.
39:33And obviously he wanted to know why Mummy and Daddy were upset.
39:37He was always crying, wasn't he?
39:39Mm.
39:40And he was asking, he was saying, is that who I think it is?
39:43He said, that's the nurse, isn't it?
39:45That's the naughty nurse that tried to kill me.
39:51She's not guilty.
39:53You're sure of that?
39:54Yes.
39:55Yes.
39:56Listen, I'm working night and day on this case.
40:00If I thought for the moment that she was guilty, I wouldn't be doing this.
40:06My argument is, and I now have expert evidence from leading neonatologists.
40:14Well, let's have a look at it.
40:16If they've got the evidence, publish it.
40:20Send me a copy.
40:22Let's see where we go to.
40:24Yeah.
40:27He's a barrister.
40:29Well, it may be said by one expert, but I am other experts that have a completely contradictory view.
40:36None of that argument regarding miscarriage of justice applies in any of these cases.
40:43These were stable babies.
40:46They were vulnerable babies because of their prematurity, but their prospects of survival was excellent.
40:52Now, this is a kind of chart that was used in Chester to monitor a baby's well-being.
41:03This one is for illustrative purposes only to avoid any difficulties with confidentiality.
41:07It shows a heart rate, which is nice and normal.
41:12All of these are indications of a baby being well, but despite all of this, what happened here?
41:20Well, Lucy Letby arrived.
41:23The little baby was assaulted, and he died as a consequence.
41:29The babies that collapsed all had records similar to this.
41:35Letby appears, and suddenly one has a baby who is on death's door.
41:44When those believing in her guilt say, well, she was on duty for so many of these deaths,
42:02the answer is, of course she was, because if she hadn't been, she couldn't have had the finger pointed at her.
42:14My name is Peter Elston.
42:15I've spent most of my career in the financial industry applying statistics as an investment manager for 35 or so years.
42:23When it comes to these sorts of criminal cases, many of them can be appraised using statistics.
42:32There were a lot more than just the seven deaths that Letby was being charged with.
42:38There were 17 in total.
42:40So what was going on there?
42:42Was there another serial killer?
42:45When the verdicts were announced, I wrote about it on my blog saying that
42:49I think anybody can see from that roster chart with this uninterrupted line of X's.
42:56That would have been extremely convincing.
42:59But frankly, this was deeply, deeply flawed indeed,
43:04and I don't think any statistician would give it any credence whatsoever.
43:08The actual rota evidence that every time a baby died it was Lucy and only Lucy who was there,
43:13is just plain wrong, because you only included the babies who died while she was there.
43:21Statistics did not play a part in Letby's conviction.
43:25Whilst statisticians said, well, what about the babies who died who are not on the spreadsheet?
43:32And, of course, my answer was, well, their deaths were not suspicious.
43:38You know, or there was an explanation for the deaths.
43:40I suppose I found myself, after the trial, really at the centre of this network.
43:57Statisticians, doctors, scientists.
43:59Many of us are working quite closely with Mark McDonald, the lawyer.
44:06Before the retrial, it became apparent that that swipe data was actually incorrect.
44:11Have I been to see Lucy? No.
44:13I think she knows that I exist.
44:16I think she knows that there are a number of people who are working hard to get her out.
44:28So, one of the members of this growing network is a computer scientist who's actually based in the US.
44:35Hi there.
44:36Hi, Stephen. Good to see you.
44:39Hi, Peter. Good seeing you.
44:42Stephen's been doing some really detailed research by reading through the transcripts,
44:50looking into one particular case, the case of Baby C.
44:54Maybe we should just go through this, Baby C, guys, because this is, like,
44:57one of the most unbelievable things I've seen.
45:07Lucy Letby wasn't the designated nurse for Baby C, but she was on duty,
45:12and, in fact, she was around a lot of the time when he was sadly passing away.
45:18The prosecution alleged that she injected air into his tummy via his feeding tube,
45:23and this caused his tummy to inflate like a balloon and his diaphragm to splint,
45:28which eventually caused him to suffocate.
45:34Basically, what happened is they identified the attack that took place on Baby C
45:42as taking place on the 12th of June.
45:44All of the experts, like Dr. Evans, agreed that this attack took place on the 12th of June.
45:49They developed a theory, and that theory revolved around an x-ray taken on the 12th of June,
45:56and they said it had too much air, and the explanation was that it was an injection of air.
46:02During the trial, they realized Letby wasn't there, and they're now saying the attack happened on the 13th.
46:09Right. But they're still trying to take the evidence from the 12th.
46:12Right.
46:13But what is in evidence is sworn witness testimony saying she wasn't there.
46:19Yes.
46:21And at what point did the prosecution council realize that there was this mistake, do you think?
46:31So the prosecution circulated a draft of their opening speech to the media before they gave it.
46:40So in their draft, they said their radiologist identified this harm on the 12th.
46:46But when they talked to the juries, when they actually gave the speech in the transcript, there's no mention of the day.
46:51Yeah.
46:52So they kept what the radiologist said, and just removed the day, because the day was wrong.
47:01It's kind of, it's quite brazen, what they did there.
47:04Well, you've uncovered something quite remarkable here. What, what do you plan to do with all this?
47:11I've been working with a number of journalists. Hopefully it should make a splash.
47:17Using this method. But during the trial, it transpired that Lucy Letby wasn't working on the 12th of June, when the X-ray was taken.
47:26There's just been a really good Radio 4 documentary. It transpired that Lucy Letby wasn't on duty.
47:36And it's possibly one of the reasons that the lead prosecution expert, Dr Dowie Evans, appears to have changed his mind.
47:44And in my email exchange with him, he says he now believes that the babies were only destabilized by having air injected into the stomach and weren't killed.
47:52Now, to me, that's really serious, because that means the jury was misdirected. They were told this was the cause of death and it was something else.
48:00The thing I find extraordinary is that Dowie Evans is now saying he's only just finished the final report, well over a year after the trial ended.
48:09So that suggests he still hasn't quite got to grips with the case, and there may be significant doubt as to how BBC died.
48:15Dr Dowie Evans says he's drafted a new report. So out there is a new report from an expert who's changed his mind.
48:34On a murder case, I have never known anything like this to happen.
48:45They thought she was there. They made a mistake. She wasn't there.
48:51She wasn't there.
48:59Today is a bit of a game changer.
49:01Mark McDonald managed to get the best experts in the world.
49:04The report demolished the case against her.
49:07People were speechless.
49:09The families are devastated.
49:12I could not believe what I read. They're hopeless.
49:14They're hopeless.
49:21And support information can be found online at channel4.com slash support.
49:27And stay with Channel 4. That next part is coming up.
49:31Or you can stream both parts of Murder or Mistake on Channel 4 whenever you wish.
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