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00:00You're just joining us here on France 24. You're watching images on the right of your screen there of Nicolas Sarkozy's car, just in the distance, ahead here of this motorcade that is going through the streets of Paris at the moment.
00:12We saw about five or ten minutes ago him leave his home in Paris, heading towards La Santé prison, where he's due to be incarcerated for a sentence of five years.
00:22On the left of your screen there, you can see images from the prison as well, and we'll talk to our reporter Clovis Casali again there very shortly.
00:30Philip, Clovis was talking, though, wasn't he, about these books that he's taking into the prison, also about the fact that he's going to write a book.
00:38How long has he got to write this book? Five years is the sentence, but will he really be in jail for five years?
00:45No, I think there's pretty much no chance he's going to be in jail for five years, but we don't know how long he's going to be in jail for.
00:52This is what's going to happen now. You can only file a request to be liberated, early liberation, once you go to jail.
01:00So that's going to happen today. As soon as he gets behind bars, his lawyers are going to file a request for him to be given early liberation from the prison.
01:08That's the first point. That will go to the appeals court, and they will then consider within the next two months, judges in the appeals court,
01:19whether or not he will be able to be liberated. It probably won't take two months for that decision to be made.
01:25But if it's a negative decision, then the judges will come back and file another case for him to be given anticipated freedom or early release.
01:34If that is the case, then he will be able to be freed immediately.
01:37He will just have to hand over all the equipment that he's been given in prison,
01:42and then he'll be able to return home to his apartment in the 16th District of Paris.
01:48The lawyers are going to repeat the request for him to be given early release.
01:54But as I said, that will happen up until the retrial, which is due to take place at the latest by the 25th of March.
02:01Why the 25th of March? Because it has to come six months after the original verdict on the 25th of September.
02:07And that's why Nicolas Sarkozy will find himself back in court again for the retrial between now and the spring.
02:15We don't know whether he's going to be liberated between now and then.
02:18Will he have time to write this book? We don't know.
02:20But he's only allowed to take three books into the prison with him.
02:23As we heard, the two volumes of The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas and also this biography of Jesus.
02:29They have to be paperback books and allowed to take in hardback books.
02:33There are a few other strange things that people don't know about prisons in France is that he won't be able to take his own sheets with him.
02:41You have to have the sheets given to you by the prison.
02:43He won't be allowed to take a compass in there with him, which I think also is probably a measure of security in case a prisoner manages to escape.
02:51But he will be allowed to use a prayer mat if he wants one.
02:54And he will be allowed to have a television set.
02:56But if he wants to have a television set, he will have to pay 16 euros a month to be able to watch it.
03:01But he will have in the room a fixed line telephone that he will be able to use to contact friends and family when he likes while he's in the prison.
03:10So that's what is awaiting Nicolas Sarkozy when he gets to the prison de la Sante.
03:14So he's almost there now. And it's going to be not a very nice day, as I was saying before, because he's going to have a body search when he gets there and then be able to then have to wear a prison uniform.
03:27And so it's going to be pretty difficult because he'll be locked in that cell 23 hours a day and only have one hour when he's let out to walk in this very small courtyard.
03:36And he won't have any contact with any other prisoners apart from prison warders who will be there to make sure that he is kept under permanent surveillance in case.
03:46In many cases, this is this is always what happens in prisons to stop any inmate from potentially trying to commit suicide.
03:53And Nicolas Sarkozy will receive the same treatment as everybody else.
03:56What is different for him? Just one last point is that he is in solitary confinement.
04:01This is something quite rare, especially at the prison de la Sante.
04:05Just to give you an idea, there are 706 places in this jail, but it has a 191 percent over rate of more of inmates in there than it should,
04:17which means that there are 80 mattresses on the ground where people have to sleep because there are not enough beds.
04:22So in a way, Nicolas Sarkozy is quite lucky to have a cell on his own and not have to share with someone or have to sleep on the floor.
04:29Well, let's go straight back to the prison and talk to Clovis Casali, who's joining us from there.
04:33Clovis, I don't know whether you can see the first vehicle starting to arrive at Motorcade from where you are,
04:40but I'm sure anticipation is building for this arrival.
04:46Indeed, and small crowds gathering here.
04:49Dozens of people close to the prison.
04:52As close as possible because the area has been cordoned off, as you can imagine, heavy police presence.
04:59And people, people from the area, from the neighborhood and also prisons in general are coming here, taking a lot of pictures.
05:06You've also got people at the balconies just in that building in front of me trying to get sight of this historic moment.
05:14One person was telling me, I wanted to be here.
05:18This is a moment of French history.
05:21And of course, you've got some people here who support Nicolas Sarkozy,
05:25who believe it's not normal to see a former French president sent to jail,
05:31even though he might not spend very long in jail.
05:34As we said, his lawyers warned this morning again that they will be filing an official request as soon as Nicolas Sarkozy enters the prison for an early release.
05:45And they believe he might be in jail for about three weeks, possibly one month.
05:51So, yes, the former French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, about to arrive at the prison of La Santé.
05:58We're here on the left bank, south of the Latin Quarter.
06:02This is a prison in Paris.
06:05Very unusual to see a prison right on the streets of central Paris.
06:10People here are gathering, waiting for Nicolas Sarkozy to arrive.
06:16And one of his advisers of the former French president telling us that he will be arriving with his head held high.
06:24And that's why he's chosen to enter, not through a hidden entrance, a side entrance where you usually have deliveries,
06:30but through the main gates of the prison of La Santé.
06:33Well, let's bring in as well, Andrew Smith now, who's joining us, historian of modern France at Queen Mary University of London.
06:40Andrew, great to have you with us as ever here on France 24.
06:44I'm sure you're watching and have been watching these images of Nicolas Sarkozy on his way to the prison.
06:49The word that I keep hearing Clovis using, that Philip Tell keeps using,
06:52Ellen Gainsford, who was at his residence, was using it earlier on, is unprecedented.
06:56I mean, it really is unprecedented, this, isn't it?
07:00Yeah, absolutely.
07:01I think it is very much a historic day.
07:03He is, of course, the fourth French head of state that's been convicted.
07:07But every time before, I think we can see something really quite historic.
07:11Louis XVI, of course, a rather more severe sentence when he was executed in 1793.
07:16Philippe PĂ©tain, sentenced to death, then commuted to exile after the liberation.
07:21And, of course, Jacques Chirac with that two-year suspended sentence back in 2011.
07:25But this is, I think, important because what it shows is this is the hand of justice reaching out and, you know, touching a former president.
07:34It shows that the abolition of privileges.
07:38You know, we go back to 1789 and all the rest, the abolition of privileges.
07:41It says that no one is beyond justice.
07:44And so I think this is a really important moment that, you know, it might well be unprecedented.
07:48But I think it sets important precedents about the need for property in public office and the ability of the state to really call people to account.
07:57So I think there's some really important elements to that as well.
08:01Andrew, you've been covering French politics for years.
08:04I mean, just thinking about Sarkozy as a person, as an individual.
08:08I mean, how much of a giant has he been, if you like, in French politics over the last 20 to 50 years?
08:16Nicolas Sarkozy has been so important, I think, in French politics.
08:19You know, first of all, as Minister of the Interior and then, of course, as president.
08:24There's a reason, I think, that people come back to him.
08:27He, of course, you know, led some of the important responses to the 2008 financial crash.
08:32He weathered those storms.
08:34But he also set a course in politics, I think, a sort of quite a populist right-wing discourse around law and order, around security.
08:43And I think that's why both this is so, in a way, ironic to see him tried and facing justice like this,
08:50but also why he's retained such an important kind of conciliatory role in bridging the kind of various tribes of French politics, if you will.
09:01And he's sought out by people right across the political spectrum.
09:04And we've seen, of course, important consultations between himself and Emmanuel Macron, who they met just a few days ago.
09:11Of course, he met with SĂ©bastien Lecornu before his investment as prime minister, first time round.
09:15He met, of course, with a litany of different figures from, of course, the centre-right and the centre.
09:24I think that's quite an important element because you will come back to him.
09:26He was the last of that Gaullus tribe, effectively, to be elected to president, to really win round the French people.
09:34And people want to go back and find more of that influence, to understand that touch, especially when we see this real shift in terms of French popular opinion towards a much more kind of authoritarian kind of stripe in terms of their kind of opinions around security.
09:53Of course, a very big opinion poll just done by the Fondation Jean Jaurès the other day about those types of attitudes.
10:00So I think there really is something about his understanding of that moment, why people keep coming back to him, and even why we know that GĂ©rard Damanen will be visiting him in prison, of course, the Minister of Justice.
10:11So clearly he holds a sway over French political opinion.
10:15And that's because of his own successes, what he represents in terms of his ideology, but also, I think, his persona and his charisma as a man.
10:23Andrew, stay with us. I'm just going to touch base once again with Clovis, who's at the prison there, just for a bit of an update.
10:30Clovis, it's a bit difficult to tell from the images we're seeing, but I assume that Nicolas Sarkozy's vehicle was one of those vehicles which went into the prison a short while ago.
10:41Quite possibly. We saw several vehicles enter the main gates of the prison of La Santé here in the southern part of Paris.
10:50Everybody here trying to understand, really, what's just happened.
10:54We have onlookers, people, normal citizens here gathered with their cameras, of course, taking pictures, asking us, did he go in?
11:02People here know that they're witnessing a historic moment with Nicolas Sarkozy entering jail.
11:09The first time head of state here in France goes to jail since Philippe Pétain, the Maréchal Pétain, remember, Nazi collaborator.
11:18Nicolas Sarkozy will be entering if he hasn't already entered the jail.
11:24And we know that he will be enduring going through whatever normal prisoner goes through when they enter the prison of La Santé.
11:33He has to give his identity. He goes through a full body search.
11:36He is given a pen and paper, a hygiene kit, sheets, a cover, and then Nicolas Sarkozy to go into solitary confinement here at the prison of La Santé.
11:49What does that mean?
11:50It means he won't be in contact with any other prisoner.
11:54This for safety reasons.
11:56We are talking here of a former French president.
11:59And, of course, many people here probably don't really like Nicolas Sarkozy.
12:04I'm talking, of course, among the prisoners.
12:06So everything needs to be done to ensure his safety.
12:10Nicolas Sarkozy will get three visits a week at the prison.
12:14He will be allowed to go out of his nine-square-metre cell twice a day for a one-hour-long walk, but not around the facility, just in a small courtyard.
12:26And regarding the conditions of his detention, he will get the right to have a TV if he bays at 16 euros a month.
12:34One of his advisors telling us also he will have a radio and he will get to work as soon as he enters his cell.
12:43He wants to write a book where he will release his rage, as his lawyers are saying, because Nicolas Sarkozy believes he should not be going to jail today,
12:56that he did nothing wrong and that he was wrongly convicted.
13:00Nicolas Sarkozy determined to fight this.
13:05He said that his career, his life was full of obstacles, of difficult times.
13:10This is yet another obstacle and he will overcome it.
13:15Yeah, I think he can probably afford the 16 euros, Clovis.
13:18But, I mean, it's pretty tough, though, isn't it?
13:20I mean, he's, as you say, not being given many favours.
13:23And he may not meet, of course, other prisoners, but they may well make their voices heard, at least, mightn't they?
13:30Yes, and Nicolas Sarkozy, adamant, he's not asking for any special arrangements, no favouritism.
13:40He wants to be treated nothing more, nothing less than any ordinary citizen.
13:45Nicolas Sarkozy feeling that he was unjustly targeted by the judges.
13:50And to come back to your question, of course, here at the prison, many inmates don't particularly like Nicolas Sarkozy.
13:58Remember, when he was president, he was the president who vowed to act tough on criminals, to act tough on delinquents.
14:07That was very much his motto.
14:09Security before all and fighting criminals by all means.
14:13That was what Nicolas Sarkozy stood for, notably when he was French president.
14:20What people, notably one of his friends, Patrick Belkany, who was in prison here.
14:26Well, what Belkany said is, what's the most difficult here in this prison is the noise.
14:32The noise during the day, during the night.
14:35Inmates screaming, yelling.
14:37Many have mental problems.
14:39And that's maybe what Nicolas Sarkozy will be suffering the most from.
14:43Those screams, shouts at night.
14:46Because, yes, life in prison is no easy life.
14:50And that's what Nicolas Sarkozy is set to experience.
14:54His lawyers believe they'll be able to get him out of this prison in three weeks, maybe a month.
15:00Because, yes, they are filing an official request for an early release.
15:04It's this before his appeal is examined by judges.
15:10Well, let's bring back in Andrew Smith once again, historian of modern France at Queen Mary University of London.
15:15Andrew, you gave us the highlights, if you like, of Nicolas Sarkozy's career a few minutes ago.
15:20Just give us the lowlights, really.
15:22I mean, what's gone wrong for him here?
15:26Very much, this is the result of a complex case that's been brought against him.
15:33You know, the judgment that was published just recently was 400 pages long.
15:39It covered 13 defendants and 68 offenses.
15:42It was an extremely complex case that was all about whether or not Sarkozy had sought illegal campaign funding from Libya for the 2007 presidential campaign.
15:53That hinged around the fact that he was convicted of being part of a criminal conspiracy to arrange for funding to be provided from quite murky Libyan sources.
16:08We remember, of course, his attempt to sort of recondition Muammar Gaddafi's, Colonel Gaddafi's reputation on the world scene.
16:17Of course, after very visible terror attacks, you think, of course, of the Lockerbie bombing, but of course, also UTA flight 722 in 1989, which got 170 people, including many, many French citizens.
16:33Now, the person he was supposedly in touch with was Gaddafi's brother-in-law, Abdallah Senussi, an important figure in that regime and one of the masterminds, effectively, behind that bombing.
16:43And that's one of the things I think that was so galling about this corruption trial.
16:48This wasn't just murky money.
16:50This was murky money coming from a regime which had been complicit in the murder of French citizens in acts of terror.
16:56And that's one of the real problems. Sarkozy set himself up as a defender of law and order, of course, famously quipping about, you know, scum, hackai and, you know, using a cashier kind of power washer to hose down the streets.
17:09But in fact, what it seemed what the courts have said was that some of the murkiest of crimes were taking place in his inner circle.
17:17And so that's really what we're seeing here. Now, of course, Sarkozy protests his innocence.
17:21We know, of course, that day one his team will put down those appeals against his imprisonment, likely be heard within two months.
17:30But we know also the type of book he's going to be writing as well.
17:33Look at what he's taken in with him. The Count of Monte Cristo, the central story about Dantès and this kind of, you know, unjust imprisonment.
17:40And, of course, a biography of Jesus Christ, the idea of this ultimate persecution.
17:45We know that Sarkozy is setting himself up as this, you know, martyred figure in the face of judicial sort of kind of favour against him.
17:55Now, I think that's what's really dangerous. And that, I think, is, you know, one of the real black marks here.
18:00Sarkozy, so long a champion of justice and a sort of populist language around security, is now doing his utmost to kind of really kind of damage the institutions of the judiciary in France.
18:12And I think it's a really important point to look at the facts of the case and judicial process.
18:17This is not a republic of justice. This is republican justice.
18:21And I think that is a really, really important distinction.
18:24This is about an idea that is not being led by lawyers, but led by courtrooms, by evidence and by investigations.
18:31And it was those courtrooms that found Nicolas Sarkozy guilty of that criminal conspiracy.
18:37And that's why he's spending time in jail right now.
18:40And knowing the French political establishment like you do, Andrew, how do you think he'll be received once he comes out?
18:46Because that's going to be crucial as well. I mean, obviously, he's no longer president, hasn't been for a long time now.
18:51But he's always been one of those figures, if you like, who presidents often talk to.
18:56And I'm thinking, obviously, of Emmanuel Macron, but even François Hollande as well.
18:59If they wanted to talk either to somebody who had a similar view to themselves or perhaps wanted to talk to somebody who had the opposite view.
19:07He was often someone that presidents could call on, if you like, couldn't they, to try to resolve disputes or find ways through different policy issues.
19:18He's always been seen as a sort of go-between. You're absolutely right.
19:20He's always been seen as someone who can help kind of connect people and put conversations in place.
19:24He's someone who can bring people from opposite sides of the divide.
19:28Now, I think, in honesty, it looks in part that it's not really been damaged, that role.
19:32His meeting with Emmanuel Macron four days ago, Macron, of course, said, well, he's just meeting, you know, one of his predecessors.
19:38It's perfectly normal on a human level.
19:40We've seen GĂ©rard Daman is scheduled to go visit him as well.
19:44And of course, the magistrates union has said that's actually quite unhelpful in terms of the independence of the judiciary to have the Minister of Justice going and visiting specially a high profile prisoner just to make sure they're comfortable in their sale.
19:56And I think that's quite a telling moment.
19:59You know, Sarkozy maintains, actually, a lot of those consultant positions that he has for very high profile companies.
20:05There were a few that dropped him after the trial, but he's maintained an awful lot of them.
20:09He continues to receive a big income, of course, from his legal firm that he set up a long time ago.
20:15He's registered with the bar, of course.
20:17And he continues to make a lot of money advising people, connecting together small businesses and the kind of, you know, the big, you know, kind of heights of the French economy.
20:27He continues to consult and work closely with people, you know, right across the business world, but also people like Vincent Bolloray, of course, the media tycoon, the right wing media tycoon.
20:37And that, I think, is the thing that remains so important.
20:40So, oddly, even as he sleeps in prison tonight, I think that, you know, that landline telephone may well be ringing off the hook.
20:47It may well not give him a quiet night as people phone to check up on him, phone to speak to him, phone to see how he's getting on.
20:55He may well have some busy visiting hours, not just, of course, from Calabrini, his wife, but from many, many supporters right across the political and business world in France.
21:05And that, I think, is, you know, a telling that it might well be a fairly soft landing despite the severity of this prison sentence.
21:14Philip, do you agree with that?
21:15I mean, do you think he's going to be, you know, welcomed back into the political community and still have that same influence that he had before?
21:22Well, there's going to be a divide between those who believe that Nicolas Sarkozy is innocent and all of this is a political witch hunt and a judicial witch hunt as well.
21:32And that the judicial system has got it out and has had it out for Nicolas Sarkozy for years and has finally got it behind bars.
21:39And there are others saying, well, this is this is correct.
21:42If you look at the opinion polls in France, one of the latest ones said that 61 percent of French people believe that it is correct that Nicolas Sarkozy goes to jail as a result of him being found guilty in this court case.
21:55So there is a majority in France of people who believe that Nicolas Sarkozy should be in jail, that he is he has been correctly found guilty of these charges.
22:05But it's true that French presidents have this aura about them or former French presidents as people who have contacts around the world, who have their ability to pick up the phone and set up deals, are politically able to advise younger politicians about what to do and what not to do.
22:30And all of that remains intact for Nicolas Sarkozy.
22:33So whether or not he's guilty, whether or not he spends a long time in jail, whether he's back in his apartment and a free man very, very quickly, his ability to be someone in the background who can offer advice and can pull some deals together will remain intact.
22:49So I do agree on that.
22:51But I think there will be a greater divide in France between those who believe that he went to jail and that is something that is correct.
22:58And others who believe that this was a travesty of justice and he should not be in prison today.
23:02And he's a victim of a judicial witch hunt.
23:05Let's ask one last question to Andrew Smith.
23:07Andrew, I'm sure you've got to leave us soon.
23:09But it's Dorian in modern France at Queen Mary University of London.
23:12Andrew, just sum it up in your words.
23:15I mean, we've used that word unprecedented so many times.
23:18I can't think of a better one.
23:19I mean, it is unprecedented, isn't it, to see a former president of France heading into prison?
23:23I think it really is.
23:26And it's one of these things that speaks to the office of the presidency in the Fifth Republic.
23:32People look at this as the Republican monarch.
23:35You can see those people gathered at the gates like those who, you know, dipped their hankies in the royal blood in 1793.
23:41This seems like a sort of something extraordinary that's occurring.
23:45We know this is the normal functioning of justice.
23:47People that have five-year sentences, you know, over 80% of them tend to be arrested and serve time as part of this.
23:54We know this is about the normal functioning of justice, the normal procedures, the normal trials that people go through when they are found guilty of these complex cases.
24:04But nonetheless, it feels like something has been crossed.
24:07A Rubicon has been crossed.
24:08And that, I think, is a really important message about probity in politics, about honesty in terms of public affairs.
24:14And the idea that public service demands a certain level of conduct.
24:18Hopefully, it's a message to people in French politics that that public approval of this, of facing justice for crimes committed, that public approval of justice running its course should say to politicians in France that public service is not above the kind of the eyes of the law.
24:35And I think there is a historic moment here, but also a historic message.
24:40And it's one which I hope that many people will hear, to clean up politics, to ensure that people are serving in the interests of the people and not in their own interests.
24:48So Nicolas Sarkozy will spend at least tonight in prison.
24:52He'll be looking to campaign for his release.
24:54He'll be looking to play that narrative of betrayal, the witch hunt and all the rest of it.
24:59But I think for most people, they will look at this as being him getting his just desserts.
25:04And that will be a story, I think, which will be much more difficult for him to define.
25:08Andrew, it's been great to have you with us as ever on the programme.
25:10Andrew Smith, historian of modern France at Queen Mary University of London.
25:14Thanks for being with us.
25:15We've been watching those images then of Nicolas Sarkozy as he left just over an hour ago.
25:20He's home and headed towards prison, to the Sainte prison in central Paris.
25:25Once again, those images from right outside the prison.
25:28And we're continuing to follow the story for you, of course.
25:30After the break, we'll talk once again to our reporter, Clovis Casali, who's there.
25:33We'll also have a bit of a look later on in the hour at somehow the presser reacting to all of this with Elitza Galliva.
25:40And talks as well to our French politics editor, Marc Perelman.
25:43All that coming up for you after the break.
25:45So do stay with us.
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