America's Richest Billionaires Are Richer Than Ever. Here's Why.

Forbes

On this episode of Beyond The Billions… Host Giacomo Tognini is joined by Chase Peterson-Withorn and Matt Durot for a deep dive into the latest Forbes 400 list of America's richest individuals. Discover the unprecedented $6.6 trillion collective wealth and the record-shattering financial barrier to join this exclusive club. They explore the dominant industries fueling this massive surge, the surprising economic paradox driving fortunes higher than ever, and the incredible impact of new technologies like AI on wealth creation. Find out why even getting richer might not be enough to stay on the list, and what it really takes to be among the nation's wealthiest elite today.   To read more about the 2025 Forbes 400 List: https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/ To read more about Taylor and Travis: https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinadilicosa/2025/08/26/heres-how-much-taylor-swift-and-travis-kelce-are-worth/ To read more about Eric Trump: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kylemullins/2025/09/03/eric-trump-becomes-a-billionaire/ To read more about Roger Federer: https://www.forbes.com/sites/justinbirnbaum/2025/08/22/roger-federer-is-now-a-billionaire/  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00This week in Billionaires, pop superstar Taylor Swift and Super Bowl champion Travis Kelsey are

00:06officially engaged, combining her massive $1.6 billion fortune with his still impressive $70

00:12million net worth. From a friendship bracelet to a stunning $650,000 diamond ring, this power

00:19couple's love story is now worth a combined $1.67 billion. Next up, thanks to a massive crypto

00:26bonanza, Eric Trump briefly joined the Billionaires Club after his company, American Bitcoin, saw

00:32its shares skyrocket on its market debut. His personal stake soared to an estimated $950

00:39million at its peak, putting him above $1 billion along with his other assets, including homes

00:44and cash. He and his brother, Don Jr., are also expanding the family's business empire

00:50through international licensing deals and other financial ventures.

00:54Finally, from Grand Slam champion to business titan, tennis legend Roger Federer has officially

00:59aced his way into the Billionaires Club with an estimated net worth of $1.1 billion. His

01:05massive fortune was built not just on nearly $131 million in career prize money, but through

01:12lucrative endorsements and a game-winning investment in the Swiss shoe brand ON, where

01:16his stake is worth over $375 million. And for our main story this week, the Forbes list of

01:24the 400 richest Americans launches today, September 9th, 2025. These billionaires are worth a record

01:31$6.6 trillion collectively. And today, we'll break down the numbers.

01:36Welcome to Beyond the Billions, a new show where we'll dig into the fortunes and finances of the

01:46world's wealthiest people. I'm Giacomo Tognini, a staff writer on the Wealth Team at Forbes.

01:51And joining me today are my colleagues, Matt Dureau and Chase Peterson-Withorne, editors on the Wealth

01:55Team who have put together and edited the Forbes list of the 400 richest Americans. Matt and Chase,

02:02welcome. Thanks, Giacomo. Yeah, thanks for having us. So, you know, we've all worked together on this

02:08list for many years now, but for our viewers, could you tell us a little bit more about, you know,

02:12what is the Forbes 400 and how do you get on the list? Yeah, so the Forbes 400 is our ranking of the

02:18richest 400 people in America. So how you get on the list is you have to be very, very, very rich.

02:25You know, there can't be more than 399 people richer than you. And this year, that means you have to

02:30have $3.8 billion to rank among the top 400 in America, which is up a half a billion dollars from

02:37last year, 500 million, which is a really crazy one-year jump. So it's hard to make a list.

02:44And I mean, I remember even a few years ago, we were at like 3.2 billion, 3.1. I mean,

02:49what are sort of the biggest takeaways that you both have from this year in terms of

02:53the record numbers we're seeing in terms of the growth of this wealth in the U.S.?

02:57Yeah, I mean, just the numbers are staggering. You know, billionaires are doing insanely well,

03:03as you mentioned, you know, the cutoffs up, you know, 500 million since last year to a record

03:083.8 billion dollars. And, you know, nearly everyone is richer than they were, you know,

03:16last year. And it's maybe, you know, the industries you might expect that are leading the way. I think,

03:22you know, 60% of the list came either from the tech sector or the finance sector. So they both,

03:28you know, continue to do very, very well. So, you know, let's get into it. People will want to know

03:34who's at the top. So Chase, can you run us through who's at the top of the list? You know, who's the

03:38richest in America right now? And what does that sort of top 10 ranking look like?

03:42Yeah, so the very top of the list is Elon Musk. He's been on the top of the list for many years now.

03:49He's worth 428 billion dollars this year. First time anybody's ever been worth more than 400

03:54billion dollars on the Forbes 400. And the reasons for that are, you know, Tesla stock is up more

03:59than 50% over the past year. The valuation of SpaceX just keeps going up and up. Even Twitter,

04:05you know, which was a bad investment at the time. Even Musk himself said it was a bad investment at

04:10the time. He sort of managed to dig himself out of that hole. He merged it with his AI company,

04:16XAI. It's this crazy valuation. So wild year for Elon Musk personally, professionally. You know,

04:22he was in the government. He was out of the government. He was a friend of Trump's. He was

04:26feuding with Trump. And despite all of that, he's gotten much, much richer. So it's yet again,

04:34the year of Elon Musk. Yeah, I feel like there's been so much Elon news, but one thing that hasn't

04:38changed is he's stayed at the top, right? As the richest person in the US. I mean, Matt, you mentioned,

04:42go ahead, Chase. No, I was just going to say, he's just so much richer than even Jeff Bezos.

04:49I think the difference in their net worth is something like the entire net worth of Warren

04:52Buffett. So it's hard to lose the top spot when you have such a big lead. Yeah, when you have a

04:58whole Buffett in between you and the next person. I mean, all the people that you mentioned, Chase,

05:02are in tech. Obviously, Matt, you were talking about some of the industries and how 60%, I believe,

05:08is in tech. Can you tell me a bit more about the breakdown of that industry? What other

05:12industries are at the top and are providing the most billionaires on this list? Yeah, sure. So

05:17not only did the, you know, incredible percentage of the list, you know, come from tech and finance,

05:24but those two sectors just on a dollar basis saw some pretty staggering gains. I think, you know,

05:30the tech billionaires are up like 700 billion since last year and the finance billionaires are up,

05:35you know, more than $160 billion, I believe. And so like, you know, it wasn't just those two

05:42industries that did well. Most did, with the one exception being manufacturing, which, again, Trump,

05:49you know, his tariffs hurt that sector this year. So that was sort of an outlier in a year where

05:57pretty much everyone else did well. And what other kinds of trends are we seeing? I mean,

06:01obviously, we track who's self-made and who isn't. We track industries. If we're looking at sort of the

06:07overall breakdown of this list, we talked about tech, we talked about the richest. What are the

06:12other important takeaways you have in terms of the trends that have changed maybe from last year to

06:17this year? Obviously, we've seen a change in administration, the other changes we've talked

06:20about, but what else stood out to you, Chase? Yeah, I think that, you know, the story of tech is

06:26definitely one of the big stories and particularly the AI subset of tech. We've been talking about this

06:33for the last couple of years now, but the AI frenzy is definitely still booming. The bubble

06:39has not burst yet. And, you know, there are a lot of AI billionaires that are on the list,

06:44joining the list. So I think that's a big one. The other thing is that the list over time is just

06:48getting more and more self-made. So last year, it was something like 67% of the Forbes 400 was

06:54self-made. This year, the numbers climbed to 71%, which might be a record. I mean, it's way up there.

07:00So, you know, as you see these family fortunes, these inherited fortunes dissipate over time,

07:08you see very wealthy people pass away and, you know, their fortunes sort of get spread.

07:13They're really being replaced by a lot of people who built their fortunes on their own.

07:20And, you know, we've talked about the self-made in tech. Obviously, this is a big country,

07:27right? There's going to be geographic concentration. I imagine people might think that

07:30California, Texas, Florida, New York, the biggest states will have the most people. But

07:33can you tell us how that actually breaks down on the list this year?

07:38Yeah, for sure. So I guess probably no surprise. You know, I think, you know,

07:44I guess one surprise is that California overtook Japan to become the fourth largest economy in the

07:49world this year. So they're once again for, I believe, the 35th straight year, the state that

07:57produced the most billionaires on the Forbes 400. And then the top four, as you mentioned,

08:03the four most populous states have remained pretty static for a number of years. But there has been

08:09some moving and shaking in there. Florida actually tied New York last year for the first time ever in

08:16the two spot. But they dropped back to three again this year. So, you know, a bunch of high profile

08:23billionaires moved to Florida last year, like Jeff Bezos and Ken Griffin, you know, I think was a big

08:29part of what prompted, you know, last year's increase. And so I think, you know, primarily

08:34just fluctuations in networks explained this year. And then Texas rounds out the top four. And,

08:43you know, Elon Musk accounts for nearly half that state's wealth, amazingly. You know,

08:49ever since pretty much he moved there in 2020 after, you know, moving from California. You know,

08:55I think he was feuding with the governor over the state's COVID restrictions, and that kind of sent

09:00him on his way. So a lot of wealth has moved from California to Texas as a result of that.

09:07Yeah, it's kind of fascinating how, you know, we always we've been hearing right since COVID of

09:10this migration from California down south from New York to Florida. And we've seen that play out

09:18with America's richest, but California is still staying number one, right? I presume also

09:22with new billionaire fortunes being created there and, and new people joining the list.

09:29Are there any big surprises you have for this year? I mean, obviously, as the cutoff gets higher and

09:34higher, it becomes harder to even make the list, right? You could be worth 3.6 billion come out of

09:39nowhere and still not be wealthy enough. But are there any surprises in terms of the biggest,

09:43you know, newcomers you've seen or anyone who dropped off and came back?

09:47Chase, any anyone that you would want to point out?

09:50Yeah, I think that the most surprising things to me are, of course, just the sheer numbers of it.

09:55You know, you mentioned the cutoff being so high, the total wealth being 6.6 trillion.

09:59And that's 1.2 trillion more than a year ago. So, you know, it was more than a trillion dollar

10:04a year for these 400 billionaires. So I think that's really, it's, it's hard to sort of understate

10:11how dramatic, I guess, those numbers are. So I think that's one thing that's, that's,

10:17that's really interesting. I think the AI boom is definitely really interesting. The other thing

10:22is just that even with the, with the cutoff being so high, with the list being so hard to get on,

10:2714 people still managed to make the list for the first time, you know, 14 newcomers. And

10:33four of them are worth more than $10 billion. So there are still massive fortunes being minted

10:41very quickly. You know, the richest, you know, newcomers, this guy, Edwin Chen of, you know,

10:48Surge AI. He's also 37 years old. So he's also the youngest person on the list. So the list is

10:54getting richer. It's getting harder to get onto. It's getting, you know, older, you know, I think

10:58something like 90% of the list this year was on the list last year. You know, if you make the Forbes

11:03400, it's pretty difficult to get off of it, you know, wealth begets wealth, you know, and so it's

11:10pretty hard to drop off. But even, even still, there are these, these young sort of newcomers who

11:15are joining still at very huge numbers and, you know, probably will be on this list for a very long

11:20time to come. Wait, who are those newcomers that joined at 10 billion? We have Edwin Chen,

11:28Mm-hmm. Hold on one second. Let me actually pull it up.

11:33Yeah. So Adam Ferrogi is the, the co-founder and CEO of this marketing software and mobile games

11:40company called Apple Evin, which... The stock's gone down a tear, right?

11:44Yeah. And it's, yeah. I would challenge you to find someone who can explain really well what they do.

11:50But, you know, it's created eight billionaires, three of whom are newcomers to the Forbes 400. And

11:55I was going to piggyback off what Chase was saying. And another interesting thing about

12:00the group of 14 newcomers is that seven of them come from three companies. So it's three from

12:06Apple Evin, two from this liquefied natural gas exporter called Venture Global.

12:12Which went public earlier this year.

12:13Yeah. And then another similar situation with a cloud computing company called CoreWeave.

12:19Um, so that was interesting to me. Uh, another, I guess, I don't know if you would call it a surprise,

12:26but, uh, you know, I guess disappointing trend is that, uh, you know, the number of women on the list,

12:32which was already small, I think it was 17% last year is down to closer to 15%. Um, you'd maybe

12:42expect it to be moving in the other direction. So I guess we'll see if that is a, uh, sort of one-off

12:48thing or, or not, but yeah, it's interesting how there's been all this talk about sort of fewer

12:54IPOs, right? But then CoreWeave and the other firm you mentioned in the LNG, that, that sort of had a

12:59direct impact in creating these new fortunes, uh, that are now in the 400. Uh, and I was also curious

13:04to ask, picking, piggybacking off what you said, Chase, about Edwin Chan and Surge, is the list getting

13:09any younger? Like how, what's the age breakdown right now? If he's the youngest at 37, what's the

13:14overall makeup? I imagine most of these folks are pretty old as I know from working on this list

13:18too with you guys, but yeah. Yeah. As you know, uh, this is a list of primarily men, primarily older

13:25men, primarily older white men. Uh, like Matt just said, you know, there are actually fewer women on

13:30this year's list than last year, although they are much richer. The ones who are on the list are

13:34much richer than, than a year ago. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I think the average age is something like 70,

13:40uh, but the youngest, you know, 10 are all under the age of 43. So you do have a lot of people in

13:44their forties, uh, certainly in their fifties and sixties, a few in their thirties. And we,

13:49the list stretches all the way up to, you know, we have a couple of 96 year olds on the list. So,

13:52uh, it mostly, mostly skews older, but there are a lot of young fortunes being minted.

13:59And if we're looking at sort of the people who have dropped off from last year, who are the most

14:03notable faces that we don't see either if they passed away or sort of from a, a change in the

14:09fortunes of their company. Cause I'm also curious in terms of the percentage of women being lower

14:14this year, is that just a matter of the cutoff got higher? And so they dropped below what's sort

14:19of behind that and what's, what's happening with the drop-offs? Yeah. Uh, in terms of the women going

14:26down, uh, I think a big contributor to that was the fact that all 14 of the newcomers were men. So

14:33that didn't help. Um, and then, yeah, so there were, uh, sorry, I'm having to reference my computer

14:41here. There's a lot of data. Um, so 26 people from last year's list, uh, fell off and another 10 died.

14:51Um, one of the 10 that died was Judy love who with her late husband, uh, founded loves travel shops.

15:00If you're on a cross country road trip, you may have come across one of those. Um, another of the,

15:06uh, the people who died was, uh, one of the Campbell soups heirs, um, by the name of,

15:14can you help me out here? Uh, Mary Alice Dorrance Malone. Yeah. There's a lot of heirs. It's hard to

15:19remember to say at the same time. Um, and, uh, in terms of the drop-off, some of the bigger names

15:26were, uh, William Wrigley Jr. Who's from the famous chewing gum, uh, family, uh, Travis Kalanick,

15:35the Uber founder. And then, uh, both or two of the three Fertitta billionaires. Uh, so Frank and

15:44Lorenzo Fertitta, who, uh, sold the UFC is how they made their money primarily. And now they are the

15:51largest shareholders of, uh, Red Rocks resorts, which their father sort of, he founded the

15:56predecessor and they've built it. Um, so their cousin, uh, Tillman Fertitta, sorry, who's the,

16:04uh, ambassador to Italy now is still on the list.

16:08One thing that's interesting too, is that of, of these drop-offs, most of them are richer than

16:14they were last year. You know, some, few of them, few of them got poorer. The stock in their public

16:18companies have tanked or, you know, something like that, but most of them actually did get richer.

16:22It's just that they didn't get richer enough, you know? And so they got surpassed by other people

16:27who, you know, maybe they went from 3.3 billion to 3.7, but 3.7 is not enough. So you need, you know,

16:33some of them had a $400 million a year and ended up booted from the Forbes 400. So it's tough

16:38competition out there. I mean, it's wild. I mean, this is the 44th edition, right? And I think back in

16:43the first edition, the vast majority were not even billionaires. And now we're at a point where

16:48you can add a, you know, a billion or a few hundred million to your fortune and you're

16:52going to drop off. Right.

16:54Even a decade ago, even a decade ago, 3.8 billion would have put you well into the top

17:01half of the Forbes 400. You would have ranked, you know, 150th or something. And now you're

17:05just barely clinging to stay on.

17:08Right. I mean, when I first started working with you guys on the list, it was in the, in

17:12the twos, right? I forget where, but, you know, below 3 billion for sure. And now we're, now

17:17we're inching up towards four and a hundred million back in 1982. So yeah, like about

17:22two, yeah, two dozen or so billionaires back then. So I don't know that 180 of the people

17:28on the Forbes 400 were not billionaires. I don't know that we even be able to track all

17:32of the hundred millionaires. I mean, yeah. Um, but I think it is interesting to see, we talk

17:39about these people who have gotten richer and still can't make it on. What about folks

17:43who are returning, you know, maybe they weren't on last year or the year before, but they've

17:47had a change in their fortunes literally and are now back on who are the most interesting

17:51returnees that we've seen this year?

17:53Yeah. It's sort of interesting, you know, how much, when we talk about the cutoff, like

18:00a hundred million dollars can make with these lists. Because, um, when you look at Robin

18:04Hood, uh, it's got two, two co-founders, one of whom Vlad Tenev, who's probably the more

18:10publicly recognizable of the two co-founders, is a newcomer this year. Whereas his, his

18:16co-founder Baiju Bhatt is actually a returnee. So he, uh, made it one year previously during

18:212021. So Tenev must've just barely missed the list back then.

18:25Right. At the peak of sort of the Robin Hood mania at the time.

18:27Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, talk about sort of the crypto boom and bust and boom again.

18:34Um, the Winklevoss twins are big names, probably the two other biggest names that returned to

18:40the list this year. And so they've, um, I think been in the news because one of their companies is,

18:46uh, supposed to be gearing up for an IPO in the sort of near future. Um, so I guess we'll have to,

18:51you know, wait and see what happens with that.

18:56So, I mean, we, we've broken down the list a bunch of different ways. Obviously readers can get on,

19:01readers and viewers can get on the Forbes website and, and dig into it for themselves and, and all

19:05of the articles we'll have going out, breaking down the list in different ways. But Chase,

19:09you've been doing this for a while now. This is not your first time doing the Forbes 400. It won't

19:14be your last, but what have you found particularly interesting about this list this year? And obviously

19:20it's been a tumultuous year, a lot going on, but what is really, apart from everything we've talked

19:24about, what was the most interesting thing for you in reporting, editing and covering it this year?

19:28Yeah. I think that this year's Forbes 400 really speaks to the point in time that we're at. So

19:37you've got tariff threats, uh, you know, denting global outlooks, the global outlook on growth.

19:45You've got inflation still sticking around. You've got a lot of companies, uh, tightening their belts

19:51and sort of, um, you know, bracing for, you know, there's certainly talk of recession and all this

19:57talk of, you know, the economic slowdown and all of that. Uh, and yet the stock market is higher than

20:03it's ever been. And so these billionaires who are the, you know, faces of the stock market and the,

20:09you know, the, the run, all of these companies that make up the stock market, uh, are just doing

20:15better than ever, you know? And so there isn't any, you know, real belt tightening or, or economic

20:22slowdown at least in, in their personal net worths, you know, they are, uh, they're definitely thriving.

20:27So I think it really just speaks to just how successful the economy is doing from a stock

20:32market standpoint, at least, uh, you know, that you just see these billionaires getting so unbelievably

20:37rich, uh, even when they started from a place of being unbelievably rich.

20:40Right. I mean, we saw that big dip after the tax liberation day. Right. And then it's just come

20:45roaring back since then. I mean, Matt, same question for you. What have you found particularly

20:50interesting about it this year? Yeah. Um, I guess that it's, you know, increasingly becoming,

20:57you know, yeah, this public stock market is booming as Chase said, but there's also these

21:04private companies like Elon Musk, SpaceX and Stripe and that are just becoming massive and like, you know,

21:12really no sign of an IPO in the near future. Um, so just the ability of, you know, a lot of these

21:21billionaires to accumulate massive wealth, uh, without having to take their companies, uh, public or at

21:28least not as quickly as they would have had to in the past, um, is both interesting and, you know, makes

21:34our job a little bit more challenging, but, uh, you know, I guess it keeps us in a job too.

21:41Yeah. More things to dig into rather than just looking at exactly things, right? Yeah. So that

21:47was interesting. So I don't want to make you guys predict things a year ahead of time, but, uh, I think

21:53it's always interesting to see, you know, where might we be next year. So without asking you to sort of make

21:59crazy forecasts, are there any people that you think would be good or interesting candidates who

22:06might sort of make it next year? Maybe they just missed the cutoff this year and it looks like

22:12they'll, they'll be getting wealthier. Any folks that you're looking at specifically that, you know,

22:17are ones to watch, I guess, is the way to put it for, for next year or over the next year. Matt,

22:22if you want to share stuff, uh, I'm sure that we will continue to see more, uh, billionaires on

22:30the Forbes 400 from these privately held AI startups. Um, so actually, you know, just a few days before

22:40we locked in the list, uh, one of the biggest of those companies, Anthropic, uh, raised or did a huge

22:47new, uh, funding round that valued the company at over a hundred billion dollars. And so that boosted

22:54the net words of seven of their co-founders, uh, six of whom are American to 3.7 billion. So they fell

23:02just $100 million short of the cutoff. So if I had to guess, I would, you know, I would, uh, posit that

23:11they'll probably, you know, be seen on the list next year, if all continues to go well for that

23:16company. Um, another, you know, big name who fell just short was, uh, Dylan Field, who is the, uh,

23:26co-founder and CEO of Vigma, which is a sort of graphic design company, which had one of the bigger

23:33IPOs of this year. And he was at one point, not too long ago worth over $6 billion. Um, and so the,

23:42uh, the company stock has sort of sunk since then and he just missed the cut. So I guess we'll have

23:47to see if he can rebound and get on the list next year. Um, those big ones that come to my mind.

23:53What about you? So I think that there are a lot of famous people who did not make the list, uh,

23:58who are on their way. And so one that comes to my mind actually is Taylor Swift, who is pretty far

24:02from making the 400 right now, but she got $500 million richer last year. So, uh, she's going

24:08to keep touring. She's going to be in the news and, uh, you know, she's got a long, long way to go long,

24:14many, many years of, of earnings. So I think you'll see some celebrities like that. I think you'll also

24:19eventually wouldn't be surprised if we see LeBron James join, uh, Michael Jordan, you know, on the

24:24list, but it'll be a while before that happens. But, uh, but you know, there are some, some famous

24:29faces out there that, uh, that are on their way. And I, I imagine Taylor's going to get a prenup

24:34maybe before I don't have any inside information, but if she wants to keep that fortune intact,

24:38right. So I have to do, I think, I think that percentage on our billionaires list is pretty

24:42high. Yeah. I'm just going to say she'll have to do three or four more eras tours, probably to,

24:48to make the list. She's got time, you know, she'll get, get, get married maybe next year,

24:51Forbes or a hundred the next year after that. Who knows? We'll be tracking that.

24:55Travis will have to play a few more years. Well, it's been awesome chatting with you guys

24:59about the list today and toiling on it together with you for the last couple months. Thanks so

25:03much for being here. Yeah. It was great to be on your new show. You're a natural.

25:08Thanks for having us. And if you want to dig into the force for a hundred list

25:11and all the stories we talked about today, please check the description of the video. Thank you.

25:25you

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