- 6 months ago
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PeopleTranscript
00:00:00Hello again, everybody. Thanks for coming over the past few days. We're here on the final day.
00:00:05Storytellers is kind of a broad, all-encompassing definition. Variety does these tend-to-watch lists in all kinds of categories.
00:00:13You know, directors, writers, you know, screenwriters, comedians, you know, comics to watch, actors.
00:00:19And Storytellers is kind of our... I probably shouldn't, you know, make this joke in front of people, but like I was calling them the misfit toys.
00:00:26They're actually kind of like the people who can't be put into just one narrow little box.
00:00:31And you'll kind of get to see the, I guess, the range of people we have.
00:00:36But what I'm going to do is I'm going to sort of present the ten names, five of whom are here with us today.
00:00:41And, you know, for the next hour after you meet them, we're going to kind of talk about how they got to where they are and where they're going.
00:00:48So I'm going to kind of run through the ten, and for the five who are here, we'll kind of bring them out.
00:00:54If someone can help me with the, because I'm going to be looking at this for the list, can do the award handing outing.
00:01:00All right.
00:01:01So, number one, we've got Holly Brickley.
00:01:04Holly's a novelist.
00:01:06She's written the book Deep Cuts, which will be adapted into a movie directed by Sean Durkin of Martha Marcy May Marlene fame.
00:01:15Holly is here with us.
00:01:17Welcome, Holly.
00:01:18We'll stay standing for now.
00:01:23We'll sit down when we're done with everybody out here.
00:01:26Heather Christian.
00:01:28Heather's a musician, singer, songwriter.
00:01:30Does some really kind of impossible to pin down work.
00:01:34The animal bravery is among her credits.
00:01:38Terse, practical breviary.
00:01:41I have not personally been lucky enough to hear Heather's work because she's really kind of New York based, but you guys were telling me how much I'm missing.
00:01:49Heather Christian is not with us today.
00:01:51Sophia Gibber and David Johnson are sort of on the list as one entry.
00:01:57They've kind of created their own production entity called Gray Area.
00:02:04Sophia Gibber is a producer.
00:02:08David, you probably recognize from the last Alien movie.
00:02:11And you'll have a movie, Wasteman.
00:02:14Is that right?
00:02:15Wasteman that'll be premiering in a couple weeks at the Toronto Film Festival.
00:02:18Arianne Godoy is a writer really kind of coming out of, I guess, you know, the new media world that there is where you can kind of write directly online to the readership instead of having to go through publishing channels.
00:02:39She's did her sort of biggest success on Wattpad, Mi Amor de Wattpad.
00:02:46And she has 4 million followers online.
00:02:50That's about 3,900,000 more than I do.
00:02:54And she's had 850 million readers for her collective work, most of which is in Spanish to date.
00:03:02Again, that's that many million more than I have had.
00:03:05But this is no contest.
00:03:08You know what?
00:03:09So, Ariana Godoy.
00:03:11Jake Halpern is not with us today.
00:03:14He's a journalist.
00:03:15He's also written books.
00:03:18He's won a Pulitzer Prize, no big deal, for his sort of like graphic project, Welcome to the New World, with the New York Times.
00:03:27You might know him best from Deep Cover, his podcast, not to be confused.
00:03:33Julia Mae Jonas.
00:03:36Has anyone read her book, Vladimir?
00:03:39A pretty terrific recent novel.
00:03:41And she's in the process of show running.
00:03:43Vladimir is an eight-episode limited series on Netflix.
00:03:50Tembi Locke is with us.
00:03:52Now we're hitting the stretch of people who are with us.
00:03:55Tembi also has written a novel that has found its way to Netflix.
00:04:01You probably know From Scratch with Zoe Saldana.
00:04:05Welcome, Tembi.
00:04:07A.K.
00:04:08Payne.
00:04:09A.K.
00:04:10Payne is a playwright.
00:04:11And Furlough's Paradise, which began in Atlanta, was recently staged in Los Angeles at the Geffen.
00:04:19A.K., welcome.
00:04:21A.K.
00:04:22Erica Sanchez is a novelist and poet, best known for I Am Not Your Perfect Mexican Daughter, which is being or been adapted by Amazon MGM.
00:04:35And has also been done already for the stage.
00:04:38And then Josh Sharpe is a very funny playwright, improv comedian, actor.
00:04:46He co-created the show Fucking Identical Twins, which became Dicks the Musical.
00:04:54The title itself in both forms is hilarious.
00:04:58And you have Ta-Da currently on stage in New York.
00:05:00So here are our ten storytellers to watch.
00:05:04All right, I'm going to start with kind of an all-purpose question, which is who among you is doing what you wanted to do when you wanted to be what you wanted to be when you grew up?
00:05:19Go ahead.
00:05:21Let's hear about how kind of like you're kind of living that dream or living some version of it that's maybe different from what you could have imagined.
00:05:29Is this on?
00:05:30Yes.
00:05:30Okay.
00:05:31I always wanted to write novels, like since I read my first Babysitter's Club book.
00:05:37So, and then I went straight to my MFA program after college, just always wanted that dream.
00:05:46Got a bit sidetracked for like 20 years.
00:05:49But then I did it.
00:05:52I wrote Deep Cuts in just a little over a year.
00:05:55It was like a super kind of feverish experience.
00:05:58And then I sold it, and I sold the film rights, too.
00:06:03And then I quit my dumb, boring job.
00:06:06So, yeah, I just write all day now.
00:06:09And in some ways, your novel is kind of coming out of your dumb, boring job, which doesn't sound either one of those two things, actually.
00:06:16I mean, like it was kind of, it's about like a music journalist or critic.
00:06:21And were you doing that?
00:06:23No.
00:06:23Or you just knew people like it?
00:06:24Okay, then.
00:06:24No, I just have lots of opinions about music and no real talent for it.
00:06:29So, I wrote, I just wrote kind of, it's a book that interpolates music journalism into fiction.
00:06:37It's kind of the idea.
00:06:40But, yeah, I wasn't a music journalist at all.
00:06:44And this question, Tembi, I'd like to hear from you, too.
00:06:46But, like, this question is kind of a disguised version for the others of you of kind of like the crash course and how we kind of got to where you are now.
00:06:54And we can unpack it over, you know, more time.
00:06:57But, Tembi, tell us, maybe it is easier as a young person to dream of being a writer.
00:07:03It's harder to succeed at being that.
00:07:05Yeah.
00:07:05And I think for me, I mean, my youngest memories are actually of seeing two things, people inside of the TV and being like, I don't know how they got in there.
00:07:16I grew up in Texas.
00:07:17I still don't know.
00:07:19And I was like, very far from how people got into TV.
00:07:21And I was like, what are they doing?
00:07:23And how do I do that?
00:07:25And any time I saw someone who looked like me in it, then there was this extra curiosity of how did they do it on top of everything else.
00:07:33So that really began the journey of, like, and I was in theater a lot as a kid.
00:07:38And so I definitely saw myself in the arts.
00:07:41I was always very clear that, like, I don't know how to do it, this thing that people do, like, on stage, but I want to do that.
00:07:49And so my career really began, professional career, as an actor.
00:07:52And it was only when I hit a kind of a personal wall and a very big thing that I write about in my first book that I actually committed to the page to write a story.
00:08:04And I actually found a journal from, like, 20, no, from, like, 1998, I'm dating myself, 1998, where I said, I think I want to write a book.
00:08:16And it was, like, buried in a lot of stuff.
00:08:19And I was not a writer at that time.
00:08:21And so the book that I eventually wrote then led to me being a screenwriter and a producer.
00:08:27And I think ultimately I'm doing the thing that the little kid in me wanted to do.
00:08:32But it's taken a very circuitous route.
00:08:35That's beautiful.
00:08:36I kind of want to hear immediately what the obstacle that became the inspiration was.
00:08:43Yeah, so two things.
00:08:44And it's deeply personal.
00:08:46It is, one, I had an ill spouse, and I was a caregiver, and I was a new mom, and I couldn't act.
00:08:54To act requires a director, a stage, costumers.
00:08:58It requires, it's an art form that is highly collaborative.
00:09:01And I didn't have the luxury and privilege of being in collaboration with other artists at that time in my life.
00:09:07I was home, and I needed to be home.
00:09:10But the artist in me did not die.
00:09:12So the artist figured out a way to create.
00:09:17And that became my book, my memoir, From Scratch.
00:09:21Okay.
00:09:22Yeah.
00:09:22Yeah.
00:09:23Did anyone else raise their hand at that?
00:09:26Or should we explore the long, windy routes that we've taken?
00:09:32AK, I see you smiling radiantly there.
00:09:34I just want to call on you next.
00:09:35Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:36I think, like, for me, I grew up always hearing stories around me in different ways.
00:09:42And I think just it was always kind of a part of how the people that raised me saw the world was through their way that they, like, structured stories.
00:09:51So my dad would just tell stories all the time.
00:09:53But not in, like, a traditional sense, but in just, like, sort of chronicling and archiving the things that he had been through and things that he had seen.
00:10:03And I feel like that really informed me as a young person and impacted my desire to be a writer.
00:10:09But I started writing poetry and I think kind of fell in love with the way that playwriting invites people to sit together and share air and space together.
00:10:19It's kind of my story with becoming a writer.
00:10:24And at what point were you kind of able to do it professionally?
00:10:28Was it something that was a sideline for a while or were you recognized kind of early on?
00:10:34Yeah, so I, like, I've been writing for so long.
00:10:38But I think being able to have a space for it has started, like, in the last couple of years, like, professionally.
00:10:45And sort of being able to, because I think I would do it regardless, like, even if I wasn't doing it professionally.
00:10:51And I think that's always something that, for me, is, like, rooted in an artist who I love is, like, the desire to do it even, like, in any circumstance.
00:11:01So, yeah, in the most recent years, I've been developing my work for the professional stage.
00:11:07But it hasn't, it's been, like, a sort of winding road of trying to get there and believing that my stories are worth that.
00:11:13It's like they say, a writer writes.
00:11:16Like, it's one thing to write in your journal.
00:11:18I want to, you know, I've heard a lot of people say I'd love to have written a book or something.
00:11:22But, you know, a writer kind of, it's like you can't help yourself from, you know, kind of doing that even if you're your only audience or, you know, it's just your partner or whoever it is.
00:11:33But I realize that Elphaba from Wicked stole your glasses.
00:11:39We have to get on that and sue her.
00:11:43Josh, you kind of came up through comedy, but kind of what's your path there?
00:11:49Yeah.
00:11:50Yeah, really it was pretty much exclusively through comedy because I do feel like as that sort of developed first as, like, a coping mechanism for being closeted in the South, you know?
00:12:01And then I became, like, an improv nerd.
00:12:04And so I think even before I knew it as a career path, I was doing a lot of, like, comedy and a lot of, like, collaborative comedy.
00:12:12Which then led to sort of the things that became this film we put out.
00:12:16Like, most of my, like, early 20s was just, like, doing sketch shows in basements.
00:12:22And then one of those, through a very circuitous Hollywood route, like, became an A24 film.
00:12:28But it has been nice recently while, because now I'm doing this, like, you know, canonical, like, comedian goes downtown and does his off-Broadway run kind of experience.
00:12:38Mortifying.
00:12:38I know.
00:12:38But it does feel like a full circling back where it's, like, especially, I think, in this era of how people, especially in television and film, were able to tell stories, like, with post-strikes and this moment of, like, opportunities feeling a little more fleeting and limited.
00:12:56But it's funny to now find myself doing a stage thing and be like, wait, this is sort of why you got into it in the first place.
00:13:02Was, like, to be on a stage, like, talking to people and telling jokes and stories.
00:13:07So the question was, am I living my teenage dreams, right?
00:13:11Some version of that.
00:13:12Yeah, then slay.
00:13:13Absolute.
00:13:16I want to know, like, was kind of being selected with Upright Citizens Brigade, was that kind of, like, the moment that started to feel like a break?
00:13:26Or had there been others before?
00:13:28For sure.
00:13:29And that was the thing I was fully, like, losing money doing while I taught special ed.
00:13:33You know what I mean?
00:13:33But I remember, like, getting, like, inducted into that community and put on stage there was, like, okay, I've made it.
00:13:40Nothing's better than this.
00:13:42And it was sort of nice to come through it from the pure way of, like, there was no part of me that was really thinking about how to turn it into a job exactly.
00:13:50It was really more, like, find collaborators and make stuff you like with them.
00:13:55And also, that's what I love about theater, too.
00:13:57It's, like, being back in that space.
00:13:59And we, I love, like, making our film, but sometimes even to make, like, a queer, weird, little indie A24, there's, like, people who work on it that you never meet.
00:14:07And then in theater, you sort of, like, know, you can keep everybody in the same room and really, like, be sharing air.
00:14:12So that, too, feels like the thing where it's, like, oh, isn't it sort of the best when you're just sort of finding people you love and making shit together, you know?
00:14:22Well, in a way, like, if you compare, like, how this group of people is different from, say, the more kind of narrowly defined 10 screenwriters to watch lists we do, it's that you all are in some way or another.
00:14:34Hot, really hot.
00:14:35Yeah, that, too.
00:14:37There was kind of, like, thank you for finishing my thought.
00:14:40The, no, but, like, you all kind of, in addition to that, obvious, goes without saying, are kind of, to create what you're creating, often have to kind of do it in kind of, in collaboration with other people.
00:14:55I mean, Sophia, you are literally on this list, you know, kind of as a duo.
00:15:00And I actually have a lot of questions just to kind of better understand how that dynamic works, because it's, in this case, it's a production company that you guys, you and David, formed.
00:15:10But tell us about how the two of you connected and kind of what Gray Area is.
00:15:14Sure.
00:15:16We had quite a serendipitous connection, because I was, I'd just come across this spec script that was meant to be made, like, five years prior, and it just sort of collected dust.
00:15:28And just optioned it, started finding a new writer to rewrite it, and I just had a general meeting with David, was a huge fan of his from industry.
00:15:37And we were having this coffee, and just talking about films we liked, and process, and how we want to enjoy sharing air with people.
00:15:46And he brought up, he'd heard through the editor of the film that I was rejigging this whole movie, and it was actually his first ever film audition, like, six years ago.
00:15:58Oh, I love that.
00:15:59And he was like...
00:16:00But that, to understand what that means, it had some kind of momentum where they thought it was going to get made, and they were already to the stage of casting.
00:16:06I grew in prep on an earlier draft with the same filmmaker who developed the story and the original writer, and he was doing a lot of theatre at the time, and wasn't really wanting to do film, but read the script and loved the filmmaker.
00:16:20And that was his first film audition, he thought, at the time there was a different casting director there called Des Hamilton, who, like, threw a chair at him, and he threw one back, and he was like, I've got this in the bag.
00:16:31And then, like, never heard anything since, and was like, okay, I guess, like, I didn't get the role.
00:16:38It was because the film just, you know, I always say that you're not making a film until the cameras are rolling, because it's such a, you know, tough process.
00:16:46But, yeah, and so when I heard that, when we had that connection at that meeting, it felt so, sort of, I believe in signs sometimes, and that felt like such a strange meeting of minds and coincidences.
00:17:00And then he came attached through the year rewrite process and exec it, and we just had a great experience making it and realised that we also share the same ethos in terms of how we make something as, I think, as important as what you're making, and how you get on with your crew, and how you treat people.
00:17:21And that kind of sparked everything, and we were really, also another weirdly serendipitous thing, and then I'll shut up, but the week before he called a meeting to talk about us really planning this production company, I'd actually met our future investors.
00:17:38And so, and then, like, two days after we were planning everything, they all happened to be in the same city in L.A.
00:17:46So it all just became this, like, beautifully serendipitous, which never happens, by the way, that's never happened to me, where it's, like, meant to be.
00:17:54And so that makes it, in some ways, obvious why you would want to just lean into that.
00:17:59It's like the universe is giving you something.
00:18:01Yeah, or if you find, like, a collaborator that you love, you know, I think, as writers, if you find a producer,
00:18:08who you love, and you feel nurtured and supported by, and it's the same with filmmakers, you kind of want to cling on to that,
00:18:14because that's beautiful, and it's not always a given, right?
00:18:17So.
00:18:18Yeah.
00:18:19I mean, I think another thing, it's sometimes hard to find common threads between everybody, and that doesn't have to be the way we have this conversation,
00:18:26but, like, you know, the, it feels like you are all telling stories that are not kind of,
00:18:32if, this is a moment when everybody in town is looking for someone to, like, have a meeting with Mattel to make the Jack in the Box movie, or something.
00:18:41I mean, I'm, like, not exaggerating.
00:18:43You're so close to a meeting I had last week.
00:18:46You're, like, one Mad Lib away.
00:18:47Do you know what I mean?
00:18:48Right, exactly.
00:18:49You're really nail on head.
00:18:50You had the meeting with Mattel, but for one of their other properties that no one would have thought was ever going to be a movie,
00:18:57because those meetings are happening, and they're happening with Marvel and whatever, and it's, like,
00:19:00but each of your projects are, you know, things that were personal to you,
00:19:04whether literally kind of, like, out of your own experience, or, you know, just kind of, like, out of the stories you needed to tell.
00:19:11Do you, does that make you feel like, that's why we wanted to celebrate you,
00:19:14but, like, does that make you feel like aliens in this industry?
00:19:17Because, you know, it's, now that you've made those projects, are you then being drawn,
00:19:23you don't have to confess necessarily what these weird meetings are, but, like, you know, that's what happens, right?
00:19:28You get an agent, and then the agent sends you to sort of, like, you know, would you write the sequel to this, or, you know.
00:19:35I kind of want to hear, like, some of the, like, dirty, you know, why did they think of me for this examples.
00:19:41And, Josh, I now am dying to hear yours, but maybe it's inappropriate, like, for you to, like, spill the, you know, some of these.
00:19:50It's hard, because, well, for us, I find oftentimes, if they're coming via Dick's The Musical,
00:19:56they usually have a certain, they're like, we have a subversive take on this.
00:20:00And often I look at it, and I'm like, no, you don't.
00:20:04But that's usually why they've come.
00:20:06But you're right, I think there is this balance between, like,
00:20:09sometimes having to court those opportunities that might give you health insurance,
00:20:13while at the same time trying to prioritize the things that it sounds like everyone on these beautiful couches are more oriented towards, you know.
00:20:23So it's hard. It's hard.
00:20:25I'd rather only do this kind of shit.
00:20:28But sometimes you do have to take a meeting with Mattel on something incredibly close to what you said, but not quite, you know.
00:20:34Right, right. And friends of mine who have not had the, you know, the fortune you have of having things published or produced,
00:20:41you know, would die for that meeting, or are having that meeting and would kill for it to turn into an opportunity, obviously.
00:20:48I mean, in some ways.
00:20:50Do any of the others of you kind of, you don't necessarily have to, like, tell, tattletale on the kind of, like, these things,
00:20:59but just kind of, like, how surprising it is for someone to maybe misinterpret between what it is that you want to be doing with your voice
00:21:06and what others think that maybe you would fit for.
00:21:10I'll jump in.
00:21:11Yeah.
00:21:11I think that in an algorithmic world, when people have seen something that works, they go, just put that on repeat and rinse and repeat.
00:21:23And I think those of us who are on this stage are generally not rinse and repeat people.
00:21:27And so there's an inherent disconnect.
00:21:30And yet, and yet, there is this balance between commerce and art.
00:21:36And sometimes you take the meetings to see.
00:21:41I've been in meetings where, like, it was very clear from, like, the time they gave me the bottle of water in the lobby.
00:21:47Like, it was not a thing.
00:21:49Like, it's not a match.
00:21:50But I go through the meeting because sometimes those meetings help me to refine who I am and the story I do want to tell.
00:21:58And maybe there's somebody in that meeting that I'll meet two years from now when we are aligned on the exact right thing.
00:22:05And in the meantime, we can talk about turning Kellogg's cereal into a movie or whatever the thing is, right?
00:22:11The Kool-Aid movie or whatever it is.
00:22:12Yeah, yeah.
00:22:12And I think they also know that they're throwing spaghetti against the wall.
00:22:16I don't think they are inherently thinking, like, we're on to the greatest fucking thing ever.
00:22:21I think it's like, let's throw spaghetti against the wall and let's see who can play with that.
00:22:26And then they're on to the next thing.
00:22:27And I think that's the nature of the disposable mentality.
00:22:32But I think true art, I think they need us in the room to actually go, okay, I hear you.
00:22:38But I'm actually bringing you down to earth, hold your feet to the fire and go, what if?
00:22:42And then they can't unring that bell.
00:22:44I mean, I feel like that's the way, that's my role.
00:22:47That's how I take those meetings is to say, I hear you.
00:22:49I see you.
00:22:50But also, what if?
00:22:51And then are you willing to play in that space?
00:22:55And sometimes they're like, no.
00:22:56No, they don't want that.
00:23:00And that's okay, too.
00:23:01And then we'll cycle back.
00:23:04I mean, it's so interesting.
00:23:05I probably am going to derail this by saying these two letters, AI.
00:23:11But, like, it's really not to turn the conversation into being about AI.
00:23:15But rather, just kind of, like, there is a way in which, like, that's what those tools seem to give these people.
00:23:23Which is, like, we don't really want someone with a take or a voice.
00:23:26We want someone who takes our notes.
00:23:28We feed in these six prompts.
00:23:30And you're our little writer, word spitter outer.
00:23:34You know, like, and that's, you know, kind of, like, that's why dumb robots were built for them.
00:23:40But, like, you know, when it comes to meeting with writers, you meet with writers because you appreciate what they've done.
00:23:45And you hope that, you know, that kind of originality that you can't anticipate is what they're going to bring to the project.
00:23:53And that's not necessarily how, you know, the town operates.
00:23:58But, go ahead.
00:24:00I also think, like, often, also in terms of, like, the algorithm and, like, the way that our society is structured right now.
00:24:08Like, there's a temptation to see the artist as, like, a static being.
00:24:11As someone who is, like, doing the same thing all the time.
00:24:14And I'm always really curious about, like, how, like, how to nurture and nourish.
00:24:20Even in, like, building a theater collective myself, like, with friends and community.
00:24:24How to nourish folks who are changing at, like, the different stages of being an artist.
00:24:29And I think sometimes there's a tendency to, like, put people in boxes.
00:24:34Whether it's in regards to their identity or where they come from.
00:24:37But, really, like, I found myself wanting more and more spaces where folks can shapeshift and change.
00:24:44And be different things and grow.
00:24:46And write things that may be outside of their comfort zone.
00:24:49And outside of, like, what they might, what an industry might expect.
00:24:53Right now, for myself, I'm thinking a lot about, like, both the stories that feel really close to me.
00:24:58And also the stories that feel really far from me.
00:25:00And how to, like, do both of those things at the same time.
00:25:03In the sense of, like, the stories that feel far from me.
00:25:06But, like, I'm obsessed with or I'm really excited about.
00:25:08And kind of following those obsessions or those curiosities.
00:25:12And making space for folks that I love and collaborators that I love to, like, do the same.
00:25:16Yeah.
00:25:18The, it makes me realize just kind of in this room on this stage over the last days.
00:25:22I mean, we've heard from Tommy Dorfman who is saying sort of a version of what you're saying.
00:25:27We heard, you know, James Sweeney say a version of that.
00:25:29Which is kind of like, I want to make a lot more things.
00:25:32And I want them to be really different from the thing you just saw tonight.
00:25:35And that's what's exciting for writers.
00:25:37The other thing is just a kind of safe way to make money.
00:25:42Which is to keep making either sequels or, you know, re-dos of the same, you know, kind of existing thing.
00:25:50But obviously as a creative mind, you know, the other thing is more interesting.
00:25:56The, Sophia, David is a writer also?
00:26:00Like, he's written one of your upcoming projects?
00:26:03Yeah, he's got, he's written a TV show, which I can't say much about at the moment.
00:26:09But it's very good.
00:26:10I'm just, I guess, kind of curious, like, it seems like you came together as kind of maybe to produce something together.
00:26:16Or he would be an actor.
00:26:17So it's like, here's another tool in his Swiss Army.
00:26:20Yeah, also I found out the other day that he speaks French.
00:26:23I was like, where did this come from?
00:26:26He's also just written a play called Pauldum, which is at Edinburgh Fringe at the moment.
00:26:30And we've sold out basically every evening, which we're exploring, adapting for film.
00:26:38Yeah, I don't actually know how he finds the time, because he writes on set as well.
00:26:42It makes me feel really inadequate.
00:26:43A writer writes.
00:26:44You know, it's like they just can't suck themselves.
00:26:46Yeah.
00:26:47But actually, just to go back to your previous point, I think it's also about entry point.
00:26:51And if someone can, you know, authentically enter a story in that way.
00:26:56So, like, there's nothing wrong with a sequel or a jack-in-the-box if there is something in you that as a writer or a filmmaker you feel inspired.
00:27:03And, you know, I think often as a producer, if you option a book and you take it to a writer and, you know, producers, you've got your own sort of take on how you think that book could be adapted.
00:27:14And then you hear the writer's entry point, and it can be very different to how you imagined it.
00:27:19But at the same time, like, a writer's got to be inspired and find their way of grasping that story, right?
00:27:25No, it's a great point.
00:27:26I mean, I think of two of, like, the most brand-based movies of recent years, Barbie, obviously, and the Lego movie.
00:27:34And both are, like, so radical – they have such a distinct voice that ties back to, you know, very funny writer-creators that we – whose voices we know and recognize that I'm sure got tempered through the demoralizing process of just, you know, lots of other voices or opinions kind of hammering that.
00:27:54And yet still at the end of the day – I mean, the idea that Barbie at the end of the day is as much a Greta Gerwig movie as it is a Barbie movie is, like, one of the greatest victories of recent years, you know.
00:28:07When you sort of have written something and then you're kind of entrusting someone else to interpret it, that's another kind of – you know, it's a leap of faith.
00:28:17And sometimes that is a handed-off and go with God or, like, you'll do what you'll do.
00:28:23What was your kind of philosophy when – was it Sean who came to you about it or –
00:28:27No, it was A24, and it was a bidding process.
00:28:32So, you know, I haven't been invited to any of these meetings with Mattel.
00:28:36I don't really have that –
00:28:37Do you want to? You don't want to.
00:28:39I mean, maybe, like, you can buy another house with it.
00:28:41Yeah, if I can buy a house, maybe.
00:28:43But I did sit through, you know, the pitches of various studios and producers who wanted to adapt my book.
00:28:52And so that was a crash course in all of these realities of the current landscape because I was hearing things like TV is dead or limited series is dead.
00:29:02So we'll have to see, you know, at the end of my book, these two characters go off and live in a cabin.
00:29:09And it's sort of the end of – it's meant to end where it ends.
00:29:12Let's put it that way.
00:29:13And they wanted to keep exploring what happens in the cabin.
00:29:16Can they not go to the cabin or can we go to the cabin?
00:29:18Yeah, how can we stretch this out because we don't want to do – it was all these realities.
00:29:23And, you know, Katy Perry can be the music producer sometimes.
00:29:26Like, it's a book about indie rockers in the aughts.
00:29:29Like, it just made no sense.
00:29:30Did you read my book that you read?
00:29:32Yeah, yeah.
00:29:32And so A24 was the one that just totally got it.
00:29:39And there was none of that vibe.
00:29:41I still haven't sensed any of that vibe from them.
00:29:45So, yeah, I gave it to them.
00:29:48And then they brought on Sean.
00:29:53And so once he was – that was the moment I really relaxed.
00:29:58And I just felt like I don't need to be involved.
00:30:01I can focus on my next book now because this is –
00:30:03A real deal filmmaker.
00:30:04This is a real deal filmmaker.
00:30:06And we spoke on Zoom for, like, two hours.
00:30:08He really understands my book.
00:30:10And I just have complete faith in his vision.
00:30:14Am I remembering right?
00:30:15Sean's last movie was the Zac Efron wrestling family movie.
00:30:17Yeah, which is very different.
00:30:20Yeah.
00:30:20But he's obviously an incredible filmmaker.
00:30:22Well, the thing I learned from that film – I'm glad that I had that right –
00:30:26is, like, here is someone who had such a deep passion in that subject
00:30:30that that movie came from that place.
00:30:32And that guy, if he told me he had a deep passion in my novel,
00:30:35I would be like, yes, I see what that looks like when it reaches the finish line.
00:30:39He lived in the cities that my book is set in.
00:30:42During those times, he went to some of the actual shows that are in my book.
00:30:46He had story – all these stories about, like, the strokes at the Bowery.
00:30:51It was just – he's just perfect.
00:30:53He's perfect.
00:30:54So I have a side question for the audience, and then we'll swing back here,
00:30:58which is, like, last time I was in Arkansas, I went to Hot Springs,
00:31:03and there was a car whose license plate was A24.
00:31:07And you had, like, stickers all over it.
00:31:09Is that person in this room – like, if I had an A24 license plate,
00:31:13I would be in this room.
00:31:14I mean, like, you know –
00:31:15Yeah, one would think, Occam's Razor, you know.
00:31:18But does anyone know who that is?
00:31:20I mean, it's like, let's – it's okay.
00:31:21We don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's pretty cool that –
00:31:24not necessarily that they have that vanity plate – vanity plates are funny,
00:31:28but, like, that, you know, production company has inspired that kind of following
00:31:34to the point that, like, I'll be in a movie theater,
00:31:36and, you know, the green – all audiences screen, the A24 logo, and applause.
00:31:41Or there's, like, just this thing you can feel in the room for the trailer that is about to come.
00:31:46I mean, this is a production company that two of you have or are working with,
00:31:50at least, maybe more.
00:31:52Let's talk a little bit about kind of, like, the good guys, you know.
00:31:55I was kind of picking on, you know, the Mattels and Marvels.
00:31:58But, you know, people who are looking for voices like yours.
00:32:02I'll start with you, Josh, because you have – of all the A24 movies that exist,
00:32:07yours is the least likely to have ever reached the screen by any path.
00:32:12I would say when the A24 logo came on in trailers,
00:32:15A24 boys were actively mad that our trailer came on after it,
00:32:19which, like, speaks to them, I think, that they were, like –
00:32:22that only they would make this thing that was, like, very unlike
00:32:25what I think the A24 algorithm was thought to be, you know.
00:32:29And yet there is no algorithm, but I know what you mean.
00:32:31It's, like, so we felt very lucky because we had a similar experience of them being –
00:32:36well, ours was even a weirder journey because we basically had been doing
00:32:39this two-man show in a basement, and then these producers –
00:32:43I'm going to stop you right there because I want the rest of the story,
00:32:46but, like, I've heard you tell that story, and I'm just kind of, like –
00:32:48I just – the picture I have in my head involves crack pipes and, like, I don't know.
00:32:53You're pretty close from how UCB was in the early aughts.
00:32:57Yeah, like, it was at the Upright Citizens Brigade that was in the basement
00:33:01of a Gristides in Chelsea, and we did this thing as, like, a two-man show
00:33:06where we were just – and it became, like, a weird hit there,
00:33:09so we did it for, like, a year and a half, but never thought –
00:33:12but that was at the era – I mean, this was, like, almost ten years ago
00:33:14where the thought was, oh, great, these two young comedy guys have a hit basement show.
00:33:19Go and pitch what your broad city is.
00:33:21Also, let's – I mean, I don't know if anyone here has seen Dix the Musical.
00:33:25We might just need to, like, fill in what the project is, like,
00:33:29so they know how cool and wacky it is, you know?
00:33:33I guess it's sort of taking the parent trap as if it were story structure
00:33:37and not parody, as if it were sort of the Iliad or Romeo and Juliet,
00:33:41as if that's sort of one of the classic stories.
00:33:44So me and my writing partner play two long-lost twins who are –
00:33:50and we're both gay guys, but the character –
00:33:54we're doing what we would call straight drag,
00:33:55where we're sort of, like, full of pussyhounds, you know, like, really –
00:33:59really – and you, the audience, know that Wink – it's very camp, right?
00:34:03The first – that's sort of the first title card is that this film
00:34:05was the first film ever written by gay people.
00:34:07And so then we're sort of playing these sleazeball twins
00:34:11who realize their parents split them up
00:34:13and then try to get them together, but they have no business
00:34:15because the dad is, like, Nathan Lane, and he's out and gay,
00:34:18and the mom is Meg Mulally, and her pussy fell off and crawled away.
00:34:21So it was like, they're never going to get together,
00:34:23and you two shouldn't do this,
00:34:26but they're, like, you know, toxic straight guys
00:34:28who are like, I want it because I want it.
00:34:30Is that a – are we out of the elevator now?
00:34:32Is that the end of the pitch?
00:34:33That's a great elevator.
00:34:34And also it's a musical.
00:34:36You all just got your money's worth,
00:34:38but you still owe it to yourself to see Dix the musical.
00:34:39And in the middle, Megan Thee Stallion does a song out of nowhere
00:34:42in a sort of Rocky Horror Time Warp way, you know,
00:34:46where it's sort of the story stops for Megan Thee Stallion to do a song.
00:34:49Get an Oscar nomination for that song.
00:34:51But we were doing, like, a two-man basement version of that
00:34:54where we played all the parts
00:34:55and then had these producers called Chernin
00:34:58who had made films like Planet of the Apes,
00:35:02but not, like, indies.
00:35:04But they just saw the show and were, like,
00:35:06we sort of want to, like, roll the dice
00:35:07on making, like, a crazy weird comedy.
00:35:10And so they then helped us sell it to Fox
00:35:13because Chernin is named for Peter Chernin
00:35:15whose job before running Chernin was running Fox.
00:35:20So if you can believe it, they wanted to buy our script.
00:35:23And we sort of – actually, I remember,
00:35:25because we had this real shark producer
00:35:27who was, like, we're going to do this.
00:35:28They're never going to make it.
00:35:29But maybe in five years, A24 will.
00:35:31And truly is what happened.
00:35:33They, like, paid us to write a script.
00:35:36They read it.
00:35:38Sorry to use this word if it offends you,
00:35:41but the film does end with a song called
00:35:43God is a Faggot.
00:35:44So I think they got to that and went,
00:35:46well, no.
00:35:47And luckily gave it back to us
00:35:50and didn't try to make it a Fox movie.
00:35:52They were like, this is never going to be a Fox movie.
00:35:54But then the script existed and that got to A24.
00:35:57And they were sort of like,
00:35:57yeah, sure, no, no, it sounds fun.
00:36:01And then similarly, we got paired up with Larry Charles
00:36:03who directed, like, Borat and was an old Seinfeld person
00:36:06and had that experience of, like, a two-hour Zoom
00:36:08where he was, like – he sort of fiercely understood it
00:36:10and was very protective.
00:36:11And so then through the rest of the journey,
00:36:13it was very easy to be like, well, he's our sort of champion.
00:36:16I think what I hear – I mean, I – what I hear in that is, like,
00:36:24your original voice is just the thing, so stay true to that,
00:36:29and the alignment will come.
00:36:30Like, the people who understand it will find it,
00:36:34and then you – a lot of these meetings are about clearing out the noise
00:36:40and the people who don't get it, right?
00:36:42And it's that whole thing if you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find the –
00:36:45whatever that analogy is.
00:36:48And so – but there are those people, as you say, the good guys,
00:36:52who, like, see the story, get the story, support writers,
00:36:55support visionaries, and go, like, I'm here for it.
00:36:57They're going to have tough conversations with you.
00:36:59It doesn't mean they're going to say yes to everything you want,
00:37:02but ultimately they gravitated toward the material for a very specific reason.
00:37:06And, you know, in film, which is a much more of an auteur place to be as an artist,
00:37:14television is not.
00:37:15Television is by committee.
00:37:16I mean, the showrunner is ultimately the kind of, like,
00:37:18the equivalent of the filmmaker.
00:37:20But many showrunners are under contracts to certain studios,
00:37:25and therefore, you know, that gets a little murky.
00:37:27So I think it's really about taking that two-hour Zoom,
00:37:32and if you close your computer at the end of it and you're like, oh, my God, relief,
00:37:37then that's your person.
00:37:38And then you've got to let it play itself out and go with the destiny
00:37:43and go with the unfolding.
00:37:45And if you close the computer and you're like, oh, jeez,
00:37:49hold on to your fucking material for five years until you find the right person.
00:37:54It's okay to do that.
00:37:55Go do what – you know, keep doing your day job.
00:37:58Keep writing other things.
00:37:59Keep putting your voice in other media.
00:38:02Because you'll find your match.
00:38:05I was going to – go ahead.
00:38:06Sorry.
00:38:06This will be so quick because I feel like I've talked too much.
00:38:08But I agree with you also to the point where sometimes those meetings can be
00:38:12in unlikely places.
00:38:13That, like, we're talking about the A24s that are, like, the likely place.
00:38:16But I think we never expected that the people who made Planet of the Apes
00:38:19would want to make our weird movie.
00:38:21But that only happens because you've already made the thing for them.
00:38:24Do you know what I mean?
00:38:25So it's like you've got to never stop just, like, making shit
00:38:27and then be open to, like, the people who might come in
00:38:30and be like, I weirdly am the person who also gets this.
00:38:34I mean, it seems – please, go ahead.
00:38:36No, it's okay.
00:38:37Just trusting, timing, and intuition.
00:38:39One of my favorite playwrights, Alice Childers, she has a quote where she says,
00:38:43I do my thing.
00:38:44All who have ears to hear, hear all others later.
00:38:46And I love that quote so much and think about it a lot.
00:38:49But also just thinking about, like, how nothing that is for you will miss you.
00:38:53I think that, like, leaning into that and leaning into, like, the process of things.
00:38:58And I think sometimes industry prioritizes – has a lot of ageism in it
00:39:04and does this thing where it's, like, you have to do it right now
00:39:06or it's not going to get done.
00:39:08But I think if we think about things in, like, a spacious sense
00:39:11and in the sense of, like, long lives
00:39:13and with the perspective of elders and folks who have lived longer,
00:39:16then we have a greater sense of, like, timing and aligned timing for things.
00:39:21Yeah, no, that's true.
00:39:22And I think another thing that we often see is that –
00:39:25I mean, if you look at the IMDB profile for someone,
00:39:29you see the things that got made.
00:39:31You don't see the things that kind of nearly did
00:39:33or, you know, like the version of Wasteman that, you know,
00:39:36never popped up there or whatever.
00:39:39And what we don't necessarily realize is that in order to be successful,
00:39:43even the Steven Spielbergs or, you know, some of the biggest directors,
00:39:47I think of one that I kind of used to know better,
00:39:51which was Bill Condon, who did Dreamgirls
00:39:53and went on to do, like, the last two Twilight movies.
00:39:57And it's like he always had, like, seven projects,
00:40:00kind of irons in the fire at once.
00:40:02And probably none of those sevens, but the eighth one would, you know,
00:40:06kind of, like, come along.
00:40:07And you just have to kind of be doing that.
00:40:09I mean, obviously, if you're a novelist,
00:40:11it's just not possible to write seven things at once, you know.
00:40:14But, like, the – and even as a – one has to be, you know,
00:40:19smart about your time.
00:40:20But at the same time, I don't think a lot of people out here
00:40:24who are not kind of in the process necessarily realize
00:40:27that you just have to have your options kind of open.
00:40:31And then, you know, it's like, you know,
00:40:35fucking Identical Twins was not the only thing you guys had ever done.
00:40:38That's just the one that, you know, went on this journey or whatever.
00:40:42And you just, like, keep being creative.
00:40:45Yeah.
00:40:46I mean, I would say – it's funny.
00:40:47I was having a conversation with someone recently who's a memoirist,
00:40:49and we were talking about, like, the stuff –
00:40:52the parts of the story that you're seeking to tell
00:40:55that don't make it in the final draft and in what's published, right?
00:40:59And so we were talking about how effectively, you know,
00:41:02it's like killing your darlings
00:41:03or the stuff that makes it on the cutting room floor.
00:41:06Do not discard that.
00:41:08That is your matter for the next project.
00:41:12The next story is in the DNA of what didn't make it into the thing
00:41:16that is getting made right now.
00:41:18So we both were talking about how we just literally have, like,
00:41:21another tab open on the computer, another file that's like,
00:41:24boop, drag and drop, drag and drop.
00:41:25And those are seeds for a future story that may take a different format.
00:41:31It might be a play.
00:41:32It could be a podcast.
00:41:33It could be a short story.
00:41:35But if you think of your creative life as infinite –
00:41:41and I think some of us, you know, we get so attached,
00:41:44like, this one thing has to make it.
00:41:46And that can be that myopia can actually be to your detriment.
00:41:50It's like, this is the one thing that I'm really working on,
00:41:53but I also know I can do other things and I can explore that.
00:41:57And that's the thing I think today as a narrative storyteller,
00:42:01like, to really keep at the forefront of your mind
00:42:03is to know that you can look inside of a scene
00:42:07that didn't make it into something and go,
00:42:09is there a character here that actually could be the seed
00:42:11of a whole other thing?
00:42:13And that's how a single artist can have seven different things going.
00:42:18That's how you do it.
00:42:19Yeah, that makes great sense.
00:42:20It's a great suggestion.
00:42:21And then you also just have to figure out
00:42:23where Katy Perry fits in to be able to produce.
00:42:25Yeah, you do.
00:42:26I know.
00:42:27Just always have that in the back of the thing.
00:42:30I feel like if Katy Perry is asking to produce,
00:42:33like, I'm impressed that you would say no.
00:42:35It's just like that's –
00:42:36She wasn't asking.
00:42:37That was their idea.
00:42:38I see.
00:42:39Right, right.
00:42:39But they knew – they had an in and they were optimistic.
00:42:43They've basically been looking –
00:42:44They're always optimistic.
00:42:46My God.
00:42:47They need some pessimism, some of these people.
00:42:49In the back of every meeting, they're like,
00:42:53is this the one that we can send to Katy?
00:42:55Yeah.
00:42:55Something like that.
00:42:56Yeah, yeah.
00:42:57Sophia, I realize as a producer, you kind of are in both veins.
00:43:02As a producer, kind of a creative producer.
00:43:04We get no all the time.
00:43:06But also you're – like, you are one of the, you know, the good guys,
00:43:10the champions that – you are the churning in this equation or whatever
00:43:13who is kind of like making it possible for, you know, a writer who writes
00:43:18or an actor who wants a role to sort of like, you know, do it.
00:43:21I wonder if, you know, with that kind of perspective,
00:43:24you have any insights to any of the things we've just been saying
00:43:27that we just haven't given you the mic for, you know?
00:43:29No, I always think that if you can defend something, that's like integral to me.
00:43:35Even if – actually on Wasteman, I was talking about the final song
00:43:39with the filmmaker and I was like, is that how you want to end the film?
00:43:44Like, is that the song?
00:43:45Because if you tell me that's the song, that's fine.
00:43:48I'll go and I've shared my bit with you and I can go and defend it.
00:43:52But if you can't defend that, I can't defend that for you.
00:43:56And I think that, like, making sure that the writer you work with
00:44:01or the filmmaker you work with knows that you can create that space
00:44:04and then defend them to the others.
00:44:07And I also think, like, what you were saying earlier about staying true
00:44:11to your idea or your story or voice is so integral also because half the time
00:44:15you're pitching to people that are also thinking about their jobs, you know?
00:44:20Like, which is, like, valid, but it's also – I don't think you should take it personally
00:44:25as, no, my next book or my next film idea isn't valid
00:44:29because they've actually got other considerations
00:44:31that might actually not have anything to do with the story that you want to tell.
00:44:35Sure, sure, yeah.
00:44:37No, that's a great point.
00:44:39You know, I'm curious kind of, like, based on some of what we were saying,
00:44:43like, for – this could be a for each of you kind of question.
00:44:46Like, when the thing that clicked for you clicked, were you kind of ready then
00:44:52to take that success?
00:44:54Like, were you – or was there, like, a kind of fear or, like, oh, shoot,
00:44:59now, like, they're expecting more of me and where will that come from?
00:45:02I mean, some people have the drawer full of screenplays before the first one gets made
00:45:06and some people, you know, have – I think, you know, in your case,
00:45:10this was your first novel.
00:45:11So it's, like, now suddenly people are kind of, like, you can do this.
00:45:17You know, what have you got for us next, for instance, you know?
00:45:21Yeah, and it's – I mean, I was ready.
00:45:25I'm excited to be here and so freaking grateful.
00:45:29But I – it's different now because it is my job.
00:45:35And I wrote this book kind of like how Josh was at UCB,
00:45:38where it was just – I didn't think about money at all.
00:45:41I didn't – never expected to make any money off of this.
00:45:45That's one thing that they hammer into you in an MFA program is you will never make money.
00:45:50Like, that is, like, the headline of every class.
00:45:53And for this, you pay, right?
00:45:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:56You pay a lot.
00:45:57And so after my MFA program, I felt a little deflated, honestly, by that
00:46:03because, of course, in this babysitter's club era, I thought this would be my job.
00:46:08I would write books.
00:46:09And it just seemed so ridiculous.
00:46:11So now that it is my job, it does feel different.
00:46:16It really does.
00:46:17Because I have to – and I am working on my next book, and there are certain expectations,
00:46:25and there are – there's timelines, and there's Goodreads.
00:46:30You know, there's my accidentally stumbling on someone on TikTok who hates my book.
00:46:39You know, every day I feel like I see something like that.
00:46:42And those things kind of get into your head.
00:46:45So that's been a real focus of mine.
00:46:48I'm just finishing up book two right now, but it's been in the last few months.
00:46:52It's just trying to recapture what it was like in the before times.
00:46:58I mean, I even realize sometimes as a critic, you know, it's like that is –
00:47:03we're not necessarily the enemy, but so often we – you know, even within a positive thing,
00:47:09there's something that stings and demoralizes, and that – like – and a lot of creatives
00:47:14are very, you know, sensitive to just the way your work is taken.
00:47:18You create work because you want it to be taken, but can you, like, handle the feedback, you know?
00:47:23Yeah.
00:47:23I feel like I've gotten better just over the past – my book came out February 25th,
00:47:27and that process was – I was so bad at it.
00:47:30Those people who have the drawers full of screenplays have spent years thickening their skin.
00:47:36Sure.
00:47:37Whereas I was just like, hi, oh, Jesus, oh, God, oh, no.
00:47:43So –
00:47:43And are you even people, or are you just, like, angry bots, you know,
00:47:46who are, like, programmed to say mean things, you know?
00:47:49Yeah.
00:47:49The – sort of carrying the question down the row, I don't know if any of the others of you
00:47:54kind of, like, just identified with the, oh, it's like now there's interest in me,
00:47:59you know, now I'm armed with all these things that I can pitch, or now I've got to, you know,
00:48:05kind of, like, spend 48 hours cranking out a bunch of ideas I can't – I don't know.
00:48:10Like, where were you, AK?
00:48:12I think, like, I'm in this process right now of, like, learning the importance of, like,
00:48:17of retreating and of, like, stillness because I feel like the work that I make,
00:48:22I can't make it if I'm making it in response to, like, urgency or people, like, people's expectations.
00:48:30I think I actually have to kind of figure out how to turn everything off for a little bit
00:48:38and, like, trust that that's okay, which is really scary in an industry that is, like,
00:48:43what do you – what's next?
00:48:44What's happening next?
00:48:45Like, that kind of energy.
00:48:46I feel like my brain – I love what you're saying, and my brain is kind of, like, exploding,
00:48:49being like, is that – like, is that allowed?
00:48:51Is that a thing?
00:48:52It's so scary to do, and I constantly am, like, is it allowed?
00:48:56But I think trying to carve out space for that for myself and then also trying to normalize that
00:49:03in, like, the creative spaces that I'm, like, trying to create because I think it's critical.
00:49:08Like, I think that the work that we make when it comes from a centered place is so different
00:49:14from the work that we make when it's, like – or the work that I make, I speak for myself –
00:49:18when it's coming from, like, a frantic – I'm trying to, like, output a bunch of things place,
00:49:24and I'm trying to honor that.
00:49:26Yeah.
00:49:26And there are other people who can only generate under deadline or something like that.
00:49:30Absolutely.
00:49:30And you may give them six months, and then it's the last two days where they –
00:49:35Yeah, and I've been – that's been me for so long, but I think it's interesting to try to reorient,
00:49:40especially as I think about, like, longevity and not just, like, a spurt of creative output,
00:49:48but, like, how do I sustain a career over a long period of time and not just over a short period of time,
00:49:55if that makes sense.
00:49:56And enjoy it as well.
00:49:57Mm-hmm.
00:49:57Exactly.
00:49:59Do either of you, Josh or Tembi, have a thought on kind of this – it could either be my question
00:50:04or it could be kind of playing off of AK.
00:50:06I mean, I have a little bit of both.
00:50:08I think when I had the experience of my first book coming out,
00:50:12and I had the privilege, quite frankly, of having it get in the hands of Reese Witherspoon.
00:50:18I mean, so, hello, right there.
00:50:20It's – you scale.
00:50:21Like, it's – I was literally – wrote it for, like, thinking,
00:50:24oh, maybe five, ten people will read this.
00:50:26Like, wrote it for myself, and suddenly it's on a whole other scale.
00:50:31And then to have that adapted and be on a global platform,
00:50:35I was very much, like, I am – I have met – I have – I'm seeking to take up space
00:50:45in a life I didn't know I would have.
00:50:48And so then I'm taking up the space, and I don't mean that, like, by crowding anyone else out.
00:50:54I'm just owning the space that my life has unfolded in front of me.
00:50:59But then it's, like, where is – do I – is my goal now to keep it scaled at this global, all-the-time level?
00:51:06Or is that a moment?
00:51:08And now I need to retreat and figure out what does the artist in me need to say next?
00:51:12And I think it's striking that balance between wanting to continue to write stories on a scale, right,
00:51:20that reaches many people, but knowing that it's not about reach for the frigging sake of reach.
00:51:27It's, like, if I reach people, what the fuck am I saying?
00:51:30If I got nothing to say, then I don't need to reach anybody.
00:51:32I need to be, like, at Trader Joe, picking up some, you know, mozzarella and making a sandwich, right?
00:51:38If only people in this industry felt that way about – yeah, I mean, so much of what is out there.
00:51:42Yeah, so for me personally, it's not scale for the sake of scale, right?
00:51:47So it's, like, I want to be in those rooms, and so it's finding that balance for me personally
00:51:52between taking the meetings, between understanding kind of, like, where my voice is best served
00:51:58and then trusting, like, if it's not, then I need to just be in my corner doing my thing
00:52:04for the next thing that might do that.
00:52:07And it's okay also to be, you know, I don't know, Terrence Malick
00:52:10and do something, what, every 10 years if it's, you know, good.
00:52:15I mean, if you're Terrence Malick, you can do whatever.
00:52:17I guess you can do whatever you want, right?
00:52:18But, like, and also I think –
00:52:19Take a 25-year break.
00:52:20But I also think there's no, like, black female equivalent of Terrence Malick, quite frankly.
00:52:24So I think as black women, I'm also – I know when I get into that room,
00:52:28I can't fuck around in that room because I have the opportunity to, like, put something out there
00:52:36that could make – could put the seed for the next person, young kid like me,
00:52:40who might be able to do that.
00:52:41So I can't be like, oh, I'll give you something every 10 years.
00:52:44You know what I mean?
00:52:44So I'm also – there's, like, this – it's tricky as a woman and as a person of color
00:52:49to create – to be – to get into these rooms and to want to play the game
00:52:54but also be true to yourself.
00:52:59Do you want to add to that, AK?
00:53:01It feels like a balancing act.
00:53:02It's a balancing act.
00:53:03Sure, yeah.
00:53:04Yeah.
00:53:04And it's interesting to try to hold both.
00:53:06And, like, I really think that it's only through, like, getting – at least in my experience,
00:53:12like, getting really specific that I'm able – or getting really specific but that being akin to
00:53:17getting really quiet that I'm able to create things that have scale.
00:53:22And so I think it's almost like a paradox in a way that I have to, like, kind of figure out how to do both
00:53:28but also how to – how to show up for community and for those who are coming after me whether – yeah, at any point.
00:53:38Josh, I'm thinking, like, in the case of Dix, that's a project that was –
00:53:45Fair.
00:53:46Just in the case of Dix.
00:53:47Yeah, right.
00:53:48I probably could have made that even funnier question.
00:53:51No, I think you nailed it, actually.
00:53:55That was a project that you co-wrote.
00:53:58But I believe Tata is your project.
00:54:01Like, what was even that like for you?
00:54:03Like, was there a desire to kind of, like, go and do something by yourself or was it scary to kind of not have your co-writer collaborate?
00:54:11No, because theater just feels so collaborative.
00:54:15And again, like, it's been fun to – well, it did start for me just, like, building this crazy show in my basement –
00:54:22I mean, in my bedroom that I was, like, been doing in comedy clubs.
00:54:24But then I sort of at a certain point knew, like, I think it's one of those.
00:54:27Like, I think it is one of these shows that you can sort of give a proper theater run.
00:54:31But the difference to me mostly has felt like the similarity is it's become because of the concept of what the solo show is sort of a repository for, like, 10 years of stuff.
00:54:41In the same way that that film felt like it's, like, oh, weirdly, this is, like, a 10-year journey that got there.
00:54:46But I think with putting out the movie, which we felt very blessed that they even wanted to make, and as we said sort of earlier, it's, like, sort of counterintuitive for them.
00:54:53I think we sort of knew.
00:54:54We were, like, we are going to make a flop.
00:54:56Like, we are intending to make Wet Hot and not – like, we know that this is, like, a really – it's John Waters meets South Park meets Singing in the Rain.
00:55:07It's going to, like – if it does well in 10 years, people will look back and be, like, God, it's a hit.
00:55:12But it's, like, we did not make this really queer, foul film to, like, make our money back, which it did not.
00:55:19You know, but it's, like – but I think it will over time because it's, like, that type of thing.
00:55:24But then what's weird now being in this theater space is recognizing that, like – and a lot of this in my little corner of entertainment is in the sort of, like, post-O'Mary universe, where in theater they're starting to see, like, oh, these really specific comedies have legs.
00:55:38So now, in a very similar way, it's, like, I'm having people who are, like, we want to help you make this incredibly specific niche, quite frankly, thing.
00:55:48But in this instance, they're, like, actually, if we run it smartly at the right theater for 10 weeks, we can make our money back.
00:55:54Like, and then thus it becomes – so in many ways they feel very similar, but it is sort of this question of, you know, it's everything we're talking about with, like, where art meets commerce.
00:56:06But finding the right people who can sort of, like, believe in the thing you believe and realize what the model is to get it produced.
00:56:13And really what I've been on is what you were saying earlier, that I'm, like, I'm so much more concerned with the process of how we make these things and how you treat the people you're making it with and how you feel making it than what the metrics for its success are.
00:56:29I'm, like, if you do that part, everything good has already happened, you know?
00:56:32I mean, it is one of the things that, again, like, over the last five days I'm kind of hearing in different versions, which is, like, there's a kind of responsibility to kind of scale creative things.
00:56:43And movies are expensive things that cost money and time and effort for people.
00:56:48You know, it's, like, to just, like, scale your vision in a way that, like, Dick's probably – I always kind of felt like there's, like, a meta joke.
00:56:55That, like, that this movie exists is the joke.
00:56:58The almost, like, whether it succeeds or not.
00:57:00Absolutely.
00:57:01May not even be, like, what the people who are, like, laughing hardest at that joke who made it.
00:57:06And then it was trying to be a movie that was, like, you should want to come and find the freaks who want to be in the same theater as you.
00:57:11We were just thinking of, like – I was just thinking of me at slumber parties, like, watching Waiting for Guffman.
00:57:15You know, it's like a movie for the people who are, like, finding the weirdos that like it.
00:57:20Right.
00:57:20Which means it's intentionally being, like, we know most of you won't like this.
00:57:23If you want to feel good about your Goodreads, go to Dick's Letterboxd.
00:57:28But it's, like, by design.
00:57:30It's, like – so – but then what's interesting is, like, that then did feel like a thing that I had to sort of dissociate and be, like, there's going to be a lot of people who don't like this thing.
00:57:39But it's a thing that's not me.
00:57:42Yeah.
00:57:42You know?
00:57:42Whereas now in the theater space I can sort of now have done something that feels equally sort of crass and crazy and specific but be, like, wait, and now most of y'all like this?
00:57:53It's, like, when you scale it down even more, you can, like, really find your people.
00:57:58And I feel like Dick's did that as well.
00:57:59It's just, like, it's a more – the dartboard for that landscape is a little trickier.
00:58:06So we really were, like, yeah, we were, like, can you believe we made this?
00:58:09I mean, it was almost an experiment in finding out who the audience for that was or might be.
00:58:13And thus I think for them – or I don't want to speak for them, but it's, like – thus it was very easy to, like, sort of regard the movies as success because the success was this shouldn't have been made.
00:58:24And then – so then that it, like, went to Toronto and, like, one fan favorite and then, like, sort of got good reviews.
00:58:29Everybody was, like, wait, this should not have happened.
00:58:31And, you know, so I think, you know, that is the joy of sometimes doing the thing that's so specific is it takes some of the pressure off.
00:58:39And it means the people, you know, who want to be there want to be there because they're not just, like, oh, I'm doing this for a check or I'm doing this because it's going to be a hit.
00:58:48They're, like, no, I believe in this crazy thing too.
00:58:51There's something really freeing too, like, in the, like – in the way that this – that – just, like, doing something for the sake of doing it as opposed to, like, with a sense of the outcome and, like, I want this to have a particular thing that happens with it.
00:59:06Like, I think there's something really liberating about that and just being able to, like, be, like, if it succeeds, I'm happy and also –
00:59:12Well, you're always right.
00:59:13Yeah, exactly.
00:59:14Because, you know what I mean, when you've made this thing that you're, like, I believe in this and I don't need anyone else to, when it plops, you're, like, like I said.
00:59:19And when it does well, you're, like, like I said.
00:59:23You know what I mean?
00:59:24Like, when it's made for I think this is good and anyone who agrees with me agrees with me, then it's, like, that's the easiest thing in the world to do.
00:59:31You know, it's funny.
00:59:31Like, I wonder, like, philosophically, I love that point of view, but I've heard many filmmakers in interviews say a version of kind of, like, well, I made something, like, I would want to see and there must be other people like me.
00:59:41And a lot of those movies are made in a kind of solipsistic way, by which I mean they're only making it for themselves as an audience.
00:59:50They are not thinking of – and all of the things we're talking about, theater, cinema, comedy are something where half of the making process is the audience, is the recipient.
01:00:02You know, the – I mean, I just want to kind of, like, let that dangle and see if you guys want to jump on, you know, what it makes you think.
01:00:08I'll just say really briefly that I think it is about, though, being in community as well.
01:00:14Like, it's not about, like, creating only in isolation, which is what, like – I love what you were saying about, like, how collaborative theater is and how that's embedded in the practice.
01:00:21And that's why, like, I love it so much as a field is that it's kind of impossible to exist solely in, like, my own orbit because I have to engage with a director and a designer.
01:00:33And I'm constantly asking questions and seeking – we're solving problems together.
01:00:37And so if I'm just in my own head, that quickly becomes a play that does not work and does not exist on the stage.
01:00:44So I think that creates the – yeah, the loop.
01:00:50I was going to say the same thing.
01:00:51It's, like, I think what avoids the – or fights against the solipsism is that it seems like everyone here is, like, fiercely collaborative.
01:00:58So that then when you find those people – and also I was thinking this earlier from the other side of the, like, you talking about as a producer and how it is to give a note
01:01:05and sort of make sure the creative, like, really believes in it so you can go to bat.
01:01:08I'm sometimes a person, and, again, I was raised in the cult of yes and.
01:01:12But I have this discussion with creatives all the time who I'll sort of always take a note, which doesn't mean I will –
01:01:21what I mean is because I trust in my own brain, there's, like, nary a note I can get that I'm not, like,
01:01:26I can probably make this work in a way that works for both of us.
01:01:30And if I try it and that reveals itself to not be true, then I really have the ammunition to go, I think it's not.
01:01:36Whereas I find a lot of people sometimes believe they have to really, like, stake their flag in the ground early.
01:01:41But I'm sort of – there's, like –
01:01:42To resist the note, in other words.
01:01:44Yeah, and we got some crazy notes and basically did all of them because sometimes we were like, you know,
01:01:49there's a world in which I can make this work for you.
01:01:51Or sometimes in doing it, you will see, wait, no, this sucks hard.
01:01:55And you're like, yeah, right?
01:01:57So it's, like, I think there's that, like, even more than just literally being, like, collaborative,
01:02:01which I think we're all seeking.
01:02:02It's, like, a collaborative mindset to me, like, helps that where you're –
01:02:05where even though I believe fiercely in my idea, I never believe that someone else's input
01:02:10because it couldn't conceivably make it better.
01:02:13You know what I mean?
01:02:13That's great, yeah.
01:02:14That's, like, the ideal creative for a producer.
01:02:17Yeah.
01:02:18Right, sure.
01:02:19And it's probably not the way – I mean, either you get the kind of, like –
01:02:22it's not a beta personality, but you get the person who wants to please
01:02:26and is too worried about not getting the job or not getting a job, you know.
01:02:29Also, to be clear, we had fights.
01:02:31You know, it's, like –
01:02:32Yeah, I mean –
01:02:32It's, like – it's also not, like, be a pushover.
01:02:35It's just, like, my instinct is always to be, like, I'll hear it out and probably try it
01:02:38and maybe come back to you and be, like, I tried it and no,
01:02:41or maybe come back to you and be, like, I tried it and don't you see it sucks?
01:02:44And oftentimes come back and be, like, no, there was something there, you know?
01:02:47So, I think, you know, often in collaboration, conflict is the point.
01:02:52You need that creative tension there between someone else is seeing something
01:02:58and it's, you know, they always say, what's the note behind the note?
01:03:00And I remember when we were doing – we were adapting from scratch,
01:03:05four screen, limited, eight episodes, initially ten episodes,
01:03:09and then we had to cut down to eight episodes.
01:03:11There were a lot of times when it was, like, we sort of knew the vision we had for –
01:03:15we could almost see it in its final cut already shot, like, with the music going,
01:03:20and, like, the notes we would get maybe at script stage where we were, like,
01:03:25sure, let's execute that scene and show it this way, right?
01:03:31And we would do it and people would be, like, okay, well, that didn't work,
01:03:34and so we could revert back.
01:03:35Or we kept it and then we'd get on set with an actor
01:03:38who actually would have the instinct to go back to the very thing we had written initially
01:03:42that we'd gotten told to take out that then we would put back in,
01:03:45only to get then in the editing room where you realize, oh, it's coming together in a new way.
01:03:50So there's all of these stages of filmmaking or making television where you have the opportunity
01:03:56to keep staying close to your vision, but if you die on the hill, like in the writer's room,
01:04:02before it's even cast, you're going to have a hell of a run.
01:04:07That's going to be really difficult.
01:04:08So it's, like, pick the hill you want to die on and then roll friggin' hard.
01:04:14But be very clear on what that is.
01:04:16And generally speaking, the thing that you would, the hill you would die on
01:04:19is the very reason you created the thing in the first place.
01:04:22And the other stuff is malleable.
01:04:25It is malleable.
01:04:25And sometimes the hill reveals itself.
01:04:27Like, I mean, sometimes through the collaborative process of taking the note,
01:04:29you're kind of like, wait, no, this is a hard line and I didn't even know it.
01:04:32But now we've worked it out.
01:04:35I think maybe to sort of as we're running out of time here,
01:04:40like it might be worth just kind of hearing from each of you to the extent
01:04:44that you're willing to about kind of like what you have on the horizon.
01:04:49Because it's always, I mean, already what you have maybe achieved might be things
01:04:55that we're not necessarily familiar with.
01:04:56But just like to kind of like let us know like what that kind of next thing
01:04:59to look forward to for us or for you might be.
01:05:03We can kind of go down the line.
01:05:05You're writing something.
01:05:06I don't know how much you're willing to share about it.
01:05:08Yeah, I'm finishing up my next book.
01:05:11But obviously there's the film, which has yet to come out.
01:05:16The film stars Saoirse Ronan.
01:05:19What else can you tell us about it?
01:05:20And Austin Butler is produced by Eli Bush and Josh Safdie and Ronald Bronstein
01:05:29and is, yeah, directed and adapted by Sean Durkin.
01:05:34So that's about all I can tell you.
01:05:36Well, why don't you just give us the log line for, if we haven't read the novel,
01:05:40what the story of the movie is.
01:05:42Yeah.
01:05:42So it's about a young woman named Percy who has lots of opinions about music
01:05:47but no real talent for it.
01:05:49She has a few things in common with me, but it is not autofiction.
01:05:53And she and her love story slash collaboration with a musician named Joe.
01:06:00And it's all set in the aughts.
01:06:02And along the way, she uses music to make sense of her life.
01:06:06So there are elements of music journalism kind of interwoven throughout the fiction,
01:06:11real songs analyzed in the story.
01:06:14Great.
01:06:15Okay.
01:06:16You've got kind of a whole bunch of things.
01:06:18Do you want to focus on one to share with us?
01:06:21Yeah, I can't actually say too much of what we're doing.
01:06:23We're casting two features at the moment.
01:06:26And obviously we've got the journey of Wasteman as it gets out into the world.
01:06:30And then David's play, Paldum.
01:06:32Um, like the, not everything you guys produce will star David necessarily.
01:06:38No, it's sort of organic.
01:06:39Yeah.
01:06:40Um, there's a couple of things where, that we're building and developing from
01:06:44literally the kernel of an idea or a true story that just feels like a role that David
01:06:49should and would want to play.
01:06:51And then we develop it like that together.
01:06:53Um, but Paldum, he doesn't star and he, he wrote it and we produced it together.
01:06:57And do you want to just tell us a little bit about Wasteman and like what kind of movie
01:07:01would have led an audition to chair throwing status?
01:07:06So it's a prison thriller, um, a British prison thriller.
01:07:09Um, David plays this addict who's been in prison for about 10 years.
01:07:14He's got a son outside.
01:07:15He's sort of given up on life and the prisons are overcrowded at the moment.
01:07:20And it's been sort of a pandemic that's been going on for years.
01:07:23And so he gets told that he's going to get out in four weeks if he just keeps his head
01:07:28down and then he gets a new cellmate who's a bit of a lion in a cage.
01:07:32Um, but we actually, 30% of it is filmed on an iPhone because prisoners in the UK are
01:07:37now smuggling in their phones and they're on Tik TOK and they're on Instagram.
01:07:42I got a friend request from someone recently when I was doing my research.
01:07:46Um, and, uh, and so it's quite a visceral experience.
01:07:50There was a documentary at Sundance that Eugene Jarecki did that was like prisoners basically
01:07:56doing their own expose with smuggled in phones and stuff.
01:08:00I mean, it's, it's a new.
01:08:01There's so much stuff online to see.
01:08:03It's a new world.
01:08:03It's incredible.
01:08:04Yeah, yeah.
01:08:05Uh, Tembi.
01:08:06Yeah.
01:08:07Um, so I have, um, an audio original that's coming out, an audio book original called Someday
01:08:13Now, which is, um, it is memoir, but in audio and I recorded, um, all of the sounds scape
01:08:22of, and of Sicily basically.
01:08:24And it's interwoven into the book.
01:08:26So it's just a completely immersive audio listening experience.
01:08:31This was like commissioned for by Audible.
01:08:33Is that right?
01:08:33It's actually Simon Schuster.
01:08:35Oh, sorry.
01:08:35Simon Schuster.
01:08:36Oh yeah.
01:08:36And so it's kind of, um, it's a new art form because it's both memoir, but it's like a
01:08:41double memoir because it's the narrative, but then it's also the sound of a place at
01:08:46a particular moment that will never be again.
01:08:50And so that's woven into the narrative.
01:08:52So I'm sort of, that's comes out in September.
01:08:53And then in my television writing career and producing career, um, I am co-writing and
01:08:59producing a series based on my, um, sister who is a novelist, her book series on, uh, called
01:09:07the 59 Highway 59 series, which is, um, a police cop thriller set in Texas.
01:09:17Um, it's a black Lone Ranger and, uh, yeah, go with that.
01:09:21And so we are at script stage on that and we're in partnership with Universal Television
01:09:26to bring that to screen.
01:09:28So that's what I'm working on.
01:09:29Great.
01:09:29Okay.
01:09:30A.K.
01:09:31Um, yeah, I, I'm working on, uh, sort of fleshing out and like further developing this
01:09:35series called the Black Space Blaze, uh, that are all about like folks trying to reach outer
01:09:39space.
01:09:39So one is a father who has, uh, recently got out of jail and decides like the earth can't
01:09:44sustain, uh, his child and, and his, and, and, and her dreams.
01:09:48And so he builds a rocket ship.
01:09:50Um, and so that one, uh, is published and then the others I'm trying to flesh out and they
01:09:54actually like take place on the moon in different ways, uh, and trying to develop those.
01:09:58And then I, um, uh, I, I'm working with, uh, this organization called Advancing Black Arts
01:10:04in Pittsburgh where I'm from and, uh, looking at my grandmother's photographs and writing
01:10:09plays inspired by them, but also hosting gathering spaces where people can bring, uh, family photographs
01:10:14and tell stories and then generate material and paint and create from, from archival personal
01:10:21photographs.
01:10:22And where would that happen or be?
01:10:24So they're happening in Pittsburgh.
01:10:25So I've been hosting them, uh, with like just community at home.
01:10:29Uh, but I'm hoping that it's a model that can be used in other places as well.
01:10:32Like anyone can, can do it and just gather people and tell stories around photographs.
01:10:36I love that.
01:10:37Okay.
01:10:37Go ahead, Josh.
01:10:39Um, well, we're mostly trying to get to this, the end of this run without getting sick.
01:10:44So that's going good so far.
01:10:46I don't even quite know what to die is.
01:10:49So you could tell us a little bit more about that show, uh, or.
01:10:53That is so true.
01:10:54Um, it's, I, in some ways it is like one of the, I feel like there is a rich tradition
01:11:01of like Birbiglia style, like, you know, standup comedian does a theatrical piece.
01:11:05So in this one, it's sort of like a half hour of dick jokes.
01:11:07And then this story about how my mom who died of ovarian cancer 15 years ago, gently bullied
01:11:12me out of the closet before she passed away.
01:11:14And then sort of a story of a near death experience I went through last year.
01:11:18That's got me thinking a lot about my mom, but really it's that inside of this 2000 slide
01:11:23PowerPoint where I've memorized all the cues.
01:11:25So you're sort of being forced to like take in this show while you also are taking in another
01:11:29thing.
01:11:29And a lot of times I'm saying one thing and it's telling you something else.
01:11:32And it's sort of some way playing with like passive viewing of how we watch TV in our
01:11:37phones.
01:11:38It's like, what if you did that, but active, um, easy pitch, right?
01:11:43You see what I mean?
01:11:44Very commercial.
01:11:44Um, so, but when that run ends, I think there's like other theaters we're talking to, to see
01:11:49if we could do it some other spaces.
01:11:51And then with Aaron, who I did the movie with, there's a few different like writer things
01:11:57that I'll feel like they're in various stages of.
01:11:59One is the sort of rare someone came to us with like, we have this subversive idea.
01:12:04You're the right guys to write it, which is like an R rated animated.
01:12:06We're writing for Sony.
01:12:08And then, and then two plays.
01:12:10Again, I feel like in the, in the O'Mary, um, cinematic universe, there's been lots of
01:12:14just like theater companies that are like, do you want to write us a big naughty play?
01:12:18And we're like, totally.
01:12:19So I feel like I need to end this run and then write a few scripts with him and then
01:12:23sort of see what the universe wants.
01:12:25But in a fun way where it's like, I don't really know what's next.
01:12:28It's just like, we're going to chip away at some things and see what wants to move.
01:12:31I, I really appreciate that each of you is sort of like not trying to square yourself
01:12:37to fit the peg or hole or whatever, you know, I hope you know what I'm saying.
01:12:42I don't even know what I'm saying.
01:12:44I mean, you are, you are being yourselves in an industry that is often trying to kind
01:12:48of like, you know, make them into what, you know, they want you to be.
01:12:51And we also really appreciate you traveling to Little Rock and sharing with us, you know,
01:12:56kind of your experience.
01:12:57Uh, let's hear it for our 10 storytellers to watch.
01:13:06All right.
01:13:07Take your trophies.
01:13:08Enjoy them.
01:13:09Yes.
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