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00:00A beautiful day to you. Thank you for joining us yet again on Guardian TV and welcome to Guardian
00:04Talks. Yes, I am Olukayode Olumuyo, your host for today. We have quite a fascinating one to look
00:11into today as we'll be, you know, discussing about a book and yes, titled Issue is Not Satan.
00:18And yes, I'm not alone in the house. I've got the author right here in the studio and we are going
00:32to be, you know, discussing about that book and yes, what brings about that title. I find it very,
00:37you know, intriguing and I'm looking forward to hear from him. So yes, welcome, Mr. Ayokola Ayawumi.
00:45I hope I got it right. Thank you. Awesome. So yes, for the sake of our viewers at home,
00:51you might not really know who is Mr. Ayokola Ayawumi. Can you please introduce yourself?
00:57Well, the author of Issue is Not Satan, the book right here. I'm a documentary filmmaker,
01:05cultural educator, and most importantly, a lead creator at the AIF Urobo Cultural Center.
01:12Wow. Awesome. Awesome. So welcome and thank you for coming once again. So yes, your book,
01:17you wrote this issue is not Satan. Yes. I must say, as a Yoruba guy, I find it very interesting
01:23because, you know, we grew up understanding that issue is Satan. So what is the first thing is,
01:29what's the inspiration behind the book? And is this the first one you, you know, you wrote?
01:34Yes, this is my first book. Let me start from there. So I came about this book from just the exact
01:42point you raised that you grew up knowing you should be Satan. Yeah, growing up, we hear
01:50different talks from people, you know, the misconceptions, the misrepresentation of what
01:57belongs to us, the Yoruba culture, African indigenous practices. It's rampant among people,
02:03especially people who practice Abrahamic religion. So because of the widespread and the impact of
02:12Nollywood, colonialism, all of these things. The culture.
02:16Yeah. So that was how it began. But I didn't just get to this point. Of course,
02:21I have in the past, I've written many articles. I've led campaigns myself to advocate, let people
02:30know that issue is not Satan. So I have many articles I've written in the past that were even
02:35serious until I took this stop in 2023 to put this together. Wow. Issue is not Satan. It's very,
02:43you know, you've done quite a lot of work before you came about this. But then again, like I said,
02:48the title is very, very fascinating for me. So issue is not Satan. So I'm going to be asking you,
02:56Mr. Ainyo Kola, is issue truly not Satan? Of course. There are two different entities that do not have
03:10any correlation whatsoever. So let me start by first addressing Satan, which we don't know in the
03:21indigenous Yoruba cosmology, in the Yoruba landscape. But we know issue because issue is our sesto.
03:29One of the deities? Yes. Wow. That's the right word. Issue is one of the first set of the Roman
03:36of the Roman. Lord of Mary saints on head to create the world. So issue is one of our sestors,
03:43because we do not fall from somewhere. Yeah. Issue is we, among them, we have Obatala, which is the,
03:51we call Babarubu or Orishanla, the herdest among the Orishans. We have Oshan, we have Oya,
04:01we have all of them. Ogun. Ogun is the pathfinder. Ogun was the one who cleared the path, everything
04:10that comes about clarity. Ogun is in charge. Ogun is technically even in charge of justice and even
04:17the technological aspect of our world today. So they were sent as messengers with peculiar rules.
04:25They all came as a messenger of Oludumaru with specific rules, specific duty, that go on earth,
04:33go and create the earth, go and form it, and go and see to the structure of it. So we all come from them.
04:40If you trace your ancestry too, you might be surprised you are even from issue. Maybe issue is your
04:45fore, I mean your sesto. I get it. So I'm from Obatala. You've been able to trace that? Yeah, of course I know,
04:52because I'm not lost. You are not lost yourself. You just need to get to know the information because
04:58your blood, your DNA is encoded with all of this information. You come from them, so you can separate
05:04your identity. Sorry to cut you up, Mr. Ayankola. But you know that when we talk about history and,
05:10you know, especially the one that has to do with the people, indigenous people, Yoruba,
05:15Aris and all that. Quite different narratives, you know, that we have. How the earth came to be,
05:23you know, the do-ah-ah-hah-hudin, what's it called, the fowl and all that, you know,
05:29and all that. But of course, what I'm going to say is that everybody have their narrative. How sure are we
05:35that it's not yet another set of people's ideology or narrative as regards issue and the deity you've
05:42mentioned earlier? Because we know that there are realities we see in our world today. That you are
05:47not conscious of it or you don't live in that reality doesn't mean they do not exist. For example,
05:54there's light right here and there's light outside maybe in your passage or something now. That you are
05:59not there doesn't mean that the light is not there. Just that you do not behold the consciousness of
06:04that reality. So this is what people who live by that practices, which are the indigenous people,
06:10who we call the, um, technically the initiative. They live by that. We have our indigenous calendar
06:18system, which is four days, makes a week. So they follow that all through and through. And the same
06:25thing with issue. Issue is in charge of communication. Issue is, um, the one at the center of two planes.
06:33For example, between me and you now, Issue is in charge. Issue is the one that ensures that-
06:37Okay. Is that like a communicator? Yes. It's the one that you, um, you actually decode what I'm saying.
06:44So Issue is the enforcer of law of nature that ensures that, for example, if you face north,
06:50you actually get to north and you don't find yourself in the south. So Issue enforce the law of
06:56nature is like, in that case, we can say it's a police officer. Because, for example, if somebody
07:01have done wrong and you call the police on the person, you know, they might be afraid. But Issue
07:07doesn't contribute to whether you do good or you do bad. Issue is just to ensure that you get the
07:13right consequence for whatsoever you've done. So Issue is chief enforcer. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's a lot.
07:20And I'm sure that, uh, if we begin, you know, even from now until maybe next year, we would, you know, finish this.
07:26Like I said, it's a very fascinating one, you know, especially even for me. And, um, okay. Now let's
07:32look at the, the parts, uh, recently, uh, we're going to, you know, ship this in before we progress
07:38further. Okay. Recently, you know, we have, uh, I wouldn't say it's a clash, but, you know,
07:44extend your words as regard the, the Yoruba leadership, uh, you know, is royal majesty,
07:52they are laughing for you. Uh, you know, he, he came and he, he, I think it's about the, the
07:59shift and see stuff that the only, you know, confided on someone. And, uh, there was this
08:04little back and forth that, uh, or knees jurisdiction doesn't, you know, give the, the, the rights to him
08:11to give, uh, a kind of shifting title that is about Yoruba land. And this, this has actually become
08:17something in the, in the past couple of weeks. What is your own take as a together? Who exactly
08:21do you think is, uh, the imperial ruler of the Yoruba is from the, the narration you've given us
08:27earlier? Um, well, um, every one of us know that we come from Ife. Ife is the source. And that's why
08:34we say, if, um, if any, um, so everyone, everybody that trace their civilization to, um, the Yoruba
08:46accept that they come from Ife. So that should be, um, an established fact. So if a position
08:55or superiority is divine, is divine because it talks about the source, where we come from. Um, but
09:02Oyo, um, and the word Yoruba is synonymous from the start. Oyo had the owner of Yoruba, the word Yoruba
09:15is like their alias or their other name from the start. So they had the owner of Yoruba before
09:21the wide adoption. Okay. Sorry. So before, before, um, let's say, Oyo came to be, that was before
09:28or Rami, you know, founded or your, uh, what are the, the people that speak Yoruba, what are they
09:35called? You know, cause if I'm trying to pick one, because, um, Yoruba, well, the people we call
09:41Yoruba today is a nation. It's an ethnic nation, a very big nation. That's why it would be so absurd
09:47of anybody to call themselves say that I'm a Yoruba tribe or something. It's absurd. It's derogatory.
09:54It's an ethnic nation. So we have many subgroups and we have the Ijesha country.
10:00It's still inside. Yeah. We have the Ife on themselves. So we have the, um, Awuri. We have the, um,
10:09Yelaje, Undo. They are the Ikezi. They are on their own. They own a country of themselves and
10:14they govern their affairs of themselves. So each of them are referred by their specific name,
10:20prior to that, um, the wide adoption of the word Yoruba. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's good. Okay.
10:27Thank you for that insight as we got that. So now let's progress and, you know, talk more about
10:31our Ieshu is not Satan. Okay. Okay. Now we have established the fact that, uh, Ieshu is a communicator.
10:38He's the one that stands as a police. He's a protector and he even directs things to you. For
10:43example, there is, um, a chapter of the book that talks about an Ifa, um, Ifa verse. Ifa is the
10:50compendium of Yoruba wisdom. Yeah. Everything that belongs to the Yoruba, the knowledge, the science,
10:56the medicine. Divinity comes from him. Yeah. Divination also comes. From Ifa. From Ifa. You can find the
11:02reference. So there is an Ifa verse I cited there that says, Karujo et ni kassou daa da.
11:06Hum. He's the one that if good is coming to anybody, it has to pass through. Um,
11:17Yahiriya ya, Yahiriya ya-yiriya mo ti mu hui ananko. Eshwadara. Dariyuri yistimishimi
11:20ishiodara is the one that if good is coming to anybody it has to pass through um issue yeah
11:28because issue is the gatekeeper between the heaven and heads oh yeah so everything that is coming
11:35if eb is coming if ira is coming they can't go anywhere without passing because it's just at the
11:41gate so um this narration site and its situation where oromela was in need of things and like um
11:52this thing i discussed with you issue okay direct it to me my own aya wife my own normal we have
11:59categories of goodness in the yoruba indigenous system and we call aiku that your life is the
12:05highest of it that's why we say baoku issue because when you are still alive so then
12:11our life is the highest of it so when we say that is so issue is in charge of directing
12:21things so issue is um many things in many ways but issue is neither good be i mean bad because it
12:29doesn't contribute to um that i want to say that yeah it doesn't concern whether you do good or you
12:36do evil or bad it's just to is just allow yeah so it's another discussion to understand the concept
12:42of good and evil okay in the yoruba system what we call tb tere so it's not um the mind of understanding
12:50from the western you know system of because we naturally think something that is worst like bad in
12:57a literal sense is um the opposite of good or good yeah but they are not they are not in the
13:04yoruba system you have spoken extensively as we got that issue and we've established some facts that i
13:10found very interesting now talking about satan okay satan in the context everybody knows satan as the guy
13:18that wants to you know be equal with god and uh you know he's trying to gain dominion of the world before
13:25god sent him down you know with the other angel so if you are now bringing us with this narrative
13:33now that issue is not satan and i you know from what i just said now so who is this sit who is satan
13:39who is satan um like i said um what you just said there are a few of the things i mentioned because i just have
13:46to make that clarity that okay this is what bible says about if you check the book you see believe
13:52about satan according to bible okay believe about satan according to quran that what you just said
13:59now is part of this okay said there because we don't know anything about satan so i have to quote
14:04those sources to put up something that is being said yes about satan because satan um he should
14:12neither fight with he can't fight with his um creator which is ulu dumari in either fight in
14:18either eye is looking for the downfall of anybody rather looking for your good and that's why he said
14:24anybody should be because issue is always after the well-being the balance of the universe where we live
14:31in so that's what issue is after but you know this is western ideology is western it exists in the world
14:39it doesn't exist in us and anything that happens like that that does not exist in our world we use
14:46or a yellow borrowed word to denote them yeah or we break them down to explain what they mean for
14:53example if you would say internet you'd say um that means you break it down you break the meaning of
15:04that word in turn it down because internet itself is not an idea that exists in the yoruba in the yoruba
15:11word um vocabulary so what's like for example when you say jesus now you say jesus why not say yeah
15:20so the right word to denote um satan is satani in the yoruba system satani because it doesn't exist we are
15:29borrowing it okay to explain a foreign idea in our system i think i love that part you just mentioned
15:35and from what you i picked something earlier and you said that issue in the yoruba divinology or you
15:42know narration and all that he never fought with oromila no with olodumare rather and he had no grudges
15:50nothing about us seen with issue who wanted to be equal with god so you decoded this from from that
15:59narration like you know the summation of the book yeah okay wow i i think it's i'm beginning to get
16:07more understanding so yeah well the books is i an introductory into the indigenous yoruba system because
16:15it talks beyond issue and even before we would explain issue to somebody who has little or no idea
16:22about the indigenous system we have to treat many of that for example the concept of evil and the yoruba
16:29system the concept of ebo the myths about nature and all of that so we have to address it because these
16:37are the questions that would naturally want to come when you think deeper and be like if issue is not
16:43certain so you have to educate yourself to know about your identity your cultural identity where you
16:48come from and so that yeah okay so and yes thank you once again mr you know once again before you know
16:56we even conclude things here as the yoruba race you know i find it quite um let me say interesting that
17:06these days we have people who are not so proud of their language their dialects they are
17:13their source to say and not even the yoruba race alone even the evils the house okay i think houses
17:19are still very much you it's also rare to see an house i can't speak house yeah very rare in this
17:25sense but you get out the most backward in terms of embracing their culture and its impact of
17:32and then again you know what would be your advice you know to our society per se you know me personally i
17:52i believe we should embrace our culture uh you know like i said either you're a yoruba person you
17:59are hebrew you are outside we should be proud of where we come from and but like i said i find it
18:06interesting in our own settlement here as yoruba people we these days you're going to come also and
18:14all that you know and i think we're also mixing up things that the fact that you speak yoruba doesn't
18:19mean you're not going to know how to speak english yeah because people can i have people who can speak
18:23four or five languages and they are doing fine so what would be your own advocate for that
18:29of course i'm a cultural educator and advocating that same to be frank you don't have a meaningful
18:35life to live outside your cultural identity you have to know where you come from what um constitutes you
18:41you can't live beyond your environment what is in your dna what is encoded in you you are living
18:48somebody's reality when you neglect your identity so that's um frankly and truthfully you know um but
18:57of course anybody can choose to say may i have a life i have you know you can be living the shadow of
19:02yourself i mean this is because of western suppression on identity the suppression that has been going on for
19:09long yeah yeah and this is why we do the kind of what we do to educate people to so that they
19:15understand their civilization many don't even know their history what their forefathers have done
19:20they think the civilization of today is the peak of modernity is the best of the world but we don't
19:26know that we are living in the shadow of what their forefathers have done they don't even know
19:30our empires on those days yeah and the reality what they've created they don't know so they think
19:36oh we're going to love yeah what don't she lay what don't she lay when you don't know and they don't
19:43we are living in the shadow of then to come in from this uh sorry to cut you short is that also as as a
19:50people i think our our documentation is not up to standard you know if you look at these people like
19:57our western friends you want to call them they have documentation for everything you can always
20:02fall back to what someone has done in 18 you know 17 but has here it's so difficult um it's not
20:10difficult it's just because you don't know every society has um a systematic order for everything so
20:17you think we have the right documentation yes we have and that is if and we we have a lot of them the
20:23bronze you even talk about there are quotes there are things encoded in them we call what we call if
20:31their information encoded in them in ifa itself they are just that our system is largely oral traditions
20:39and in the asian time even till now their family dedicated for this purpose we call them for example in
20:45the or your system you call them a rocky that's what they do they narrate in history from one
20:53generation to another so they keep passing it yes and it is widespread so all of this started from
21:00what do we call it 300 how many years back 400 when the um you know the invasion of this western idea
21:08and all of this so and this is one of the things that we used to um bribe all the safe people in the
21:14order of the knowledge that um for example issue itself because issue is a widespread um you know
21:22everybody would have it in their house in front of their house so you can't do anything without
21:28issue definitely so it's um yeah okay okay thank you so much mr anyokola i want to say it's it's been
21:36very very you know an amazing time here with you and i feel we should also look at this one before you
21:42leave the studio today um what part or what role do you think embracing our culture you know plays on
21:51the society and what do i mean in that context you know we look at the chinese most of the things the
21:56chinese do you know it's in their language the code chemistry phases and all that how how can we relate
22:05these you know nigeria is multicultural i know it's it's so hard because we are not speaking one language
22:09but still we can still bridge the gap so how do you think we can also you know copy some of these
22:15things that is people are because we are saying they are really progressing yeah um of course any of
22:22the world um any of this world you are talking about that um move ahead that have done great things
22:30we could reference to now in the world yeah they do everything every of their innovation come from
22:36their indigenous knowledge yes that was why i said we can't do anything meaningful we can't even
22:41compete it with the world outside there without your cultural identity your indigenous knowledge
22:46do you want to um do anything explore anything in the chinese system more than them the owner of it
22:53no way you'll be calling them practically bastard to do that so what do you have to compete with the
22:58world out there and that is your identity what is indigenous to you that uniqueness you want to bring to
23:06this stage now to say tiwanani this is our home that's peculiar and different from yours so and
23:11there are a lot of this idea that comes from uh from our indigenous system that we can bring out
23:17the chinese they have the structures in their own community japanese the korean they have the structure
23:23and we don't have anywhere to go neglecting our idea and picking you know relying all about the western
23:30yes we don't have yes we don't have anywhere to go we are just revolving around endless something so we
23:37need to trace um back to our identity there are a lot of information there like i said there are business
23:44idea in the fact there are um science medicine all the comparison all in ifa they are in ifa so it's just to
23:54focus it's just because the world has projected more of the divinity aspects and then you have a
24:00problem go and resolve it with ifa and kanka alone but it's beyond that it's depth and we have a lot of
24:08things um people are doing a lot now and even the um nigeria you are talking about the rule of n-e-l-d-c
24:16is that every children i think maybe up to age 12 or something should be taught in the indigenous language but
24:23we are not even practicing we are not we are not we are not you said if you speak vernacular you
24:27you pay money yes they must be taught that's the rule that's the policy in place you must be taught
24:33in your indigenous language in the language that dominates in the environment where the school
24:38is situated so that's the wow so we are going to use this opportunity as well to also you know tell
24:46people in government to you know sit to the enforcement of that it's good that we also
24:50ensure that our culture is not you know destroyed so about your book before you leave um where can
24:56we get this it's around book um stores it could be gotten on amazon apple books roving heights
25:03stores in abuja lagos nickel galleries um nabuja kaduna but uh you've distributed quite well that's
25:13that's also so issue is not said and i'm going to try to read this oh sure and uh we also get back to
25:19you or someone by you know finding something but no problem okay so and um any other projects you're
25:25working on yeah um like i said we're working on uh the center i create for which is a yoruba cultural
25:36center so we are structuring putting structures for the structure to do some of this work for the
25:41educating and preserving the cultural identity so we're working on a center physical center to start
25:48to it later this year and i'm working of course on a documentary um currently tied to the road from
25:55oguma shot to joss so um it is social cultural stories and all of that so awesome awesome man all
26:02the best with uh your lined up project once again thank you so much mr anion kola i know we for
26:08gracing our studio here today okay i think that that will be the size of our package today on guardian
26:14talks we have you know spoken extensively about this fascinating one issue is not said that and
26:21if you are from the yoruba race you should you know try to read this and you have more insight
26:27and yes uh once again thank you so much mr anion kola i know that's the author of the book issue
26:33is not satan until next time when we come your way again on guardian talks i am uluka yode
26:39on lumo you are and yes meeting my fellow and yes bye
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